WTF? This makes me scared....

[Julie]

for the future.

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

I just saw a preview for this on A&E. It was scarey and sickening.

[Dingfod]

I saw the previews for that at the movie theater last night. Scary is right.

[Plant Woman]

Looks like a cult. Kids writhing on the ground like they are having epileptic seizure?

[IRON MAN]

:scared: Jesus the olive-sucking Jew!!!

*Waves white flag and turns in his civilization membership card*

:scaredbaby: Hold me.

[Legs]

Who's scarier, the kids attending or the parents who sent them there?

[Leesifer]

... and are schooled in how to take back America for Christ.

Who's got America now then and did they ask whether Christ actually wants America?

[viscousmemories]

I'm pretty sure the Christ-hating Protestants have it.

[roastelk]

geting the kids while theyre young dosnt alwasy work. at least not from what I've seen

of the friends i knew who grew up with bible thumping parents. most of them are in prisin right now, a couple turned into normal people. I think one is going through pasturship training right now. (for the record, I consider pasturship not normal)

the two in prison where driven to thier breaking point by thier parents, I was a good friend with them at one point. But there parents said I was the bad infleunce, because muy mom and dad let me watch cartoons and skate baord and we never went to church, so they were not allowed to asosiate with me (they did anyways). fast forward 20 years....bad infuence kid has never even had so much as a speeding ticket, and the two divine angles are in prisin for asault with a weapon and bank robbery.

[Moxy]

It might not always work, but indoctorinating the young is still by far the best way to get believers. If that were not the case, religion would no longer exist.

Could you imagine if everyone suddenly taught their children to think critically instead of forcing religion on them from the start? Do you think many would arrive at a religious worldview as a result of any kind of critical analysis?

ETA: Some kind of deism maybe, but not much more than that I'd suppose.

[MonCapitan2002]

I wish all children were taught critical thinking at a young age instead of being fed bullshit. Sadly, that will never happen. Our school system is designed to churn out good little worker bees and sheep. It is not designed to nurture future generations of critical thinkers.

[The Lone Ranger]

"Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man".
-- Jesuit saying



There were lots of Fundamentalist Christians where I grew up, and I noticed that people raised in those households tended to turn out one of two ways. Upon reaching young adulthood, they tended to either a.) have absorbed their indoctrination completely and thus became exactly what their parents had taught them to be -- good Fundamentalist Christians who never thought to question the obvious "right-ness" of what they'd been taught to believe and how they'd been taught to act, or b.) they rebelled, developed a very strong anti-authoritarian streak, and took up many of the "vices" that had been denied to them for so long -- drinking, smoking, irresponsible sex, etc.

Surprisingly few of the people I grew up with who were raised in Fundamentalist households failed to fall into one or the other of these categories.



I wish all children were taught critical thinking at a young age instead of being fed bullshit.
So do I. So do I.


Cheers,

Michael

[MonCapitan2002]

America's future terrorists. These people will do to this country what groups like Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, and the Wahabbis have done to the Middle East. These groups poisoning the minds of young children like this will not be sowing the seeds of a rebirth of this nation. They are sowing the seeds of its destruction. They will destroy civilization, not save it. Considering their likely belief in Premillenist theology this is likely their goal.

[MonCapitan2002]

I just want to mention that my comments above are not intended as a criticism of Christianity (not that it is undeserving of criticism and condemnation, just the opposite). My comments are intended to criticise the fanaticism the assholes leading this movement are inculcating.

They are playing with fire. One of two things will happen. The first is that the tinderbox they are creating will explode and destroy this country in violent convulsion. The second is that the convulsion won't destroy the country but incite a backlash that will likely cost tens of millions of lives. They are playing with fire and we will get burned because of them.

[Julie]

They are playing with fire. One of two things will happen. The first is that the tinderbox they are creating will explode and destroy this country in violent convulsion. The second is that the convulsion won't destroy the country but incite a backlash that will likely cost tens of millions of lives. They are playing with fire and we will get burned because of them.

And That is exactly what I'm afraid of.

[MonCapitan2002]

You aren't the only one who is afraid. :scaredbaby:

[viscousmemories]

Surprisingly few of the people I grew up with who were raised in Fundamentalist households failed to fall into one or the other of these categories.
I've noticed that same dynamic, but only to a point. Of the people I know who went one or the other of those routes in their teens and twenties, most of them (including myself) have continued to experience change in their ideas and behaviors as they get older, as a result of new information and experiences. I have noticed, though, that the ones who get married to someone with the same views and start having and raising kids with those same views are much less apt to display any dramatic shifts in their views. Perhaps due to all the reinforcement from their spouse and from trying to spare their kids to exposure to their doubts and fears by trying to appear more knowledgeable and confident than they might be. But even then (my own family as an example) divorces happen, kids grow up and move on and people change.

[Clutch Munny]

They are playing with fire. One of two things will happen. The first is that the tinderbox they are creating will explode and destroy this country in violent convulsion. The second is that the convulsion won't destroy the country but incite a backlash that will likely cost tens of millions of lives. They are playing with fire and we will get burned because of them.

Well, false dichotomy is a critical thinking concept...

;)

[Beth]

b.) they rebelled, developed a very strong anti-authoritarian streak, and took up many of the "vices" that had been denied to them for so long -- drinking, smoking, irresponsible sex, etc.I have noticed this to a point, just as VM has. I rebelled in the ultimate way, I became an atheist. It was either that or become a witch. :D But, my husband has help to quelm some of my rebellious nature and has helped to foster some of my rebellion.

I am trying to keep my son out of these camps. Last year there was a huge family conflict because I forbade him to go to such a camp. I was rather insensitive, but I said I didn't want some youth pastor to molest him (Just a couple of months earlier a youth pastor murdered a thirteen year old member of his group). That stopped the argument on all ends. It was wrong and played into stereotypes but I guess I can be bad when needed. Really though, I think it was fostered from a sincere concern about one of the deacons who involves himself with the children's ministries.

[MonCapitan2002]

They are playing with fire. One of two things will happen. The first is that the tinderbox they are creating will explode and destroy this country in violent convulsion. The second is that the convulsion won't destroy the country but incite a backlash that will likely cost tens of millions of lives. They are playing with fire and we will get burned because of them.

Well, false dichotomy is a critical thinking concept...

;)
Heh. What I meant is that they'll either destroy this country and balkanise it or cause a backlash against them that would result in them being stomped on rather violently. Either scenario would fuck over the country.

[viscousmemories]

Right, and since there are more than those two possible outcomes that's a false dichotomy.

[Beth]

Honestly, I think that as society becomes more religious, it will come to a head and future generations will become less religious. Especially as time passes toward the 22nd century and people realize that the apocolypse and Second Coming did not occur and most likely will not.

I am speaking of Fundamental Christianity, here, btw.

[Joshua Adams]

The third possibility is that the Rapture will occur and rid us of them once and for all.

[godfry n. glad]

Same as it ever was.

I was raised in a "mixed" household. My mother a moderate evangelical type and my father a thoroughgoing skeptic. He had toyed with Unitarianism and the Friends, but even that proved a bit much for his sensibilities. His stipulation was that his children would not be required to attend any religious function they did not wish. When I got bored with summer bible classes, I didn't have to keep going.

I rebelled against my father's authority, but I came through it with his religious skepticism intact.

Some are inculcated from an early age, particularly where the parents are of like mind. However, there is always the adolescent separation from parental authority, which, from my experience, can go either way. Changes often happen during those years. (As such, they obviously do not obviate that change at a later time in their lives....that continues to happen, but seemingly at a much reduced pace.)

[Mason]

My History textbook says Christianity has decreased 10% worldwide in the last decade. Comments on this?

[Dingfod]

My History textbook says Christianity has decreased 10% worldwide in the last decade. Comments on this?It makes the extremists feel threatened and even more likely to do something crazy.

[Artemis Entreri]

Ok I watched the first video... weird but not holy shit weird.
I watched the second video...... and that women creeps me out. "We want children radically laying down their lives for the Gospel." Holy Crap, woman!!! what the hell are you planning?

[inland wave]

I told ding that I wanted to see the movie and he just stared at me. I want to see the propaganda and decide if it's worth my time getting involved with a group to protest on the grounds of literally saving these childerns lives or if it would be a lost cause. Jesus would not want this kind of thing happening and I feel he would be ashamed at what these parents are doing. For these parents to say they are doing it for Jesus Christ is like using God's name in vain. :glare:

[Shelli]

Monkeys trying to convince themselves that they're not monkeys.

I know I'm not a monkey though 'cause I'm a :tiggermonkey: .

[MonCapitan2002]

Honestly, I think that as society becomes more religious, it will come to a head and future generations will become less religious. Especially as time passes toward the 22nd century and people realize that the apocolypse and Second Coming did not occur and most likely will not.

I am speaking of Fundamental Christianity, here, btw.
Nope. More than likely, they'll just project the Rapture and Second Coming further into the future. Never underestimate the power of religious belief. It can create monuments on the scale of Europe's great cathedrals. It can also create horrors like the terrorist attacks that destroyed the Twin Towers and claimed nearly 3,000.

[Angakuk]

I think one is going through pasturship training right now. (for the record, I consider pasturship not normal)
What the heck is a "pasturship"? Is it some kind of agricultural profession or a new kind of boat for use on dry land?

For the record, the Summer Bible Camps that I have been associated with over the years do not include kids rolling around on the ground in epileptic fits or preparing for Holy War. They are about Bible study, worship, crafts, boating, swimming, playing games, making friends and generally having a good time.

Religious faith and critical thinking are not mutually incompatible. If any of you think otherwise I invite you try reading Kierkegaard, Tillich, Niebuhr, Küng, Bultmann or Buber (to name just a few). Religious fanaticism, on the other hand, is incompatible with critical thinking.

[Dingfod]

For the record, the Summer Bible Camps that I have been associated with over the years do not include kids rolling around on the ground in epileptic fits or preparing for Holy War. They are about Bible study, worship, crafts, boating, swimming, playing games, making friends and generally having a good time.That's consistent with my experience as well.


Religious fanaticism, on the other hand, is incompatible with critical thinking.That's a horse of a different color... and temperament.

[erimir]

The people in that movie scare me.

I feel sad for the children. I like to think that someday they'll meet someone sensible and learn why that stuff is BS, but unfortunately many of them will grow up to be the type of parents who send their kids to those kinds of camps.

[Beth]

Honestly, I think that as society becomes more religious, it will come to a head and future generations will become less religious. Especially as time passes toward the 22nd century and people realize that the apocolypse and Second Coming did not occur and most likely will not.

I am speaking of Fundamental Christianity, here, btw.
Nope. More than likely, they'll just project the Rapture and Second Coming further into the future. Never underestimate the power of religious belief. It can create monuments on the scale of Europe's great cathedrals. It can also create horrors like the terrorist attacks that destroyed the Twin Towers and claimed nearly 3,000.
I'm not so sure about that; I don't think that it will be done to the zeal that we see right now. We went through the Y2K stuff and then the movement still believes that the end most come by the 2020s- or not the end, but the rapture or emergence of AntiChrist. I am not worried about regular sects of Christianity, but I am about the more extreme fundamentalist sects. But even then, I do feel like future generations will rebel against the more radical fundamentalist and fascist-like ultra right generations and become more secular and more moderate. I think that I just think that all of this will come to a head and that we will become more secularized like like England has become, although I am not sure the US will become more atheist.

[livius drusus]

For the record, the Summer Bible Camps that I have been associated with over the years do not include kids rolling around on the ground in epileptic fits or preparing for Holy War. They are about Bible study, worship, crafts, boating, swimming, playing games, making friends and generally having a good time.
The only summer camp I ever attended was pretty much like this. Very light on the Bible study (Congregationalists, donchaknow), and heavy on the sports (including sneaking off from the campfire to kiss boys).

[Artemis Entreri]

Hmm.... 2020's eh? That fits in with my speculation that Brad Pit and Angelina Jolie's baby is the anti-christ. A union of two people that beautiful must be evil.

[Beth]

For the record, the Summer Bible Camps that I have been associated with over the years do not include kids rolling around on the ground in epileptic fits or preparing for Holy War. They are about Bible study, worship, crafts, boating, swimming, playing games, making friends and generally having a good time.
The only summer camp I ever attended was pretty much like this. Very light on the Bible study (Congregationalists, donchaknow), and heavy on the sports (including sneaking off from the campfire to kiss boys).I think that the type of camp discussed in the op is a recent phenomena. The rolling and writhing on the ground is something I never experienced, although I have seen people slain in the spirit. I have been, too. (It is almost like you are at the will of the person praying over you and when they push your forehead, you have to fight the will to fall, but it is hard because others have fallen and there are people behind to catch you, so there is almost a pressure to be like the rest of the smitten.) The preparation to be in the Army of God is something I am familiar with, too, and I know that they teach it in some of the bible camps my old church used to send kids to.-I just don't know about the rithing thing.

Anyway I am trying to keep my kids from this, but I am losing the battle.

[Artemis Entreri]

There was plenty of free thought at the bible camp I went to when I was a kid. (Only went one summer) They always woke us up early with a big bell mounted on a pole by the bunk houses. So one night we slipped out and wrapped our socks around the bells.... clanker? so that it wouldn't ring. But yeah other than services every morning, some bible lessons, and a good deal of praying, it was basically like any other camp.

[Artemis Entreri]

Anyway I am trying to keep my kids from this, but I am losing the battle.

Wow, do you mean your kids are "too" religious? If so I think you are the first person I've ever heard of that has that problem.

[Beth]

No. They aren't too religious. It's complicated and too personal to go into detail right now.

[MonCapitan2002]

Honestly, I think that as society becomes more religious, it will come to a head and future generations will become less religious. Especially as time passes toward the 22nd century and people realize that the apocolypse and Second Coming did not occur and most likely will not.

I am speaking of Fundamental Christianity, here, btw.
Nope. More than likely, they'll just project the Rapture and Second Coming further into the future. Never underestimate the power of religious belief. It can create monuments on the scale of Europe's great cathedrals. It can also create horrors like the terrorist attacks that destroyed the Twin Towers and claimed nearly 3,000.
I'm not so sure about that; I don't think that it will be done to the zeal that we see right now. We went through the Y2K stuff and then the movement still believes that the end most come by the 2020s- or not the end, but the rapture or emergence of AntiChrist. I am not worried about regular sects of Christianity, but I am about the more extreme fundamentalist sects. But even then, I do feel like future generations will rebel against the more radical fundamentalist and fascist-like ultra right generations and become more secular and more moderate. I think that I just think that all of this will come to a head and that we will become more secularized like like England has become, although I am not sure the US will become more atheist.
People used to think the world would end when the Roman Empire was still powerful. People thought the world would end on 1000 CE. There will still be people around who will think we are living in the End Times. Such irrational certainty is as an unfortunate aspect of human nature.

Whether or not such people will be in positions of power in the future is an entirely different issue, however. Hopefully they will not be.

[D. Scarlatti]

1000 CE.

Militant atheist!

[Artemis Entreri]

CE? Funny its still is based on the christian BC/AD time table
It will take a pretty big world event to give us a whole new system.

[Sock Puppet]

For the record, the Summer Bible Camps that I have been associated with ... are about Bible study, worship, crafts, boating, swimming, playing games, making friends and generally having a good time.
The only summer camp I ever attended was pretty much like this. Very light on the Bible study (Congregationalists, donchaknow), and heavy on the sports (including sneaking off from the campfire to kiss boys).
There was plenty of free thought at the bible camp I went to when I was a kid.Well, damn you all. My Bible camps were not about raising Christian Jihad warriors, but that at least would have been engaging. Ours were about Bible study, breakfast, devotional whatever, Bible study, lunch, clean up the cabins, Bible study, a bit of sports (no cutoffs above the knee, boys & girls swim separately regardless of age), dinner, devotional whatever, "campfire" (kids do skits & such, with or without a religious theme, at least one of which will cause some sort of controversy that causes one of the ministers to harangue us about it for the next 2 days), lights out. Fun times. The interminable Bible study hours were the worst.

[Beth]

Honestly, I think that as society becomes more religious, it will come to a head and future generations will become less religious. Especially as time passes toward the 22nd century and people realize that the apocolypse and Second Coming did not occur and most likely will not.

I am speaking of Fundamental Christianity, here, btw.
Nope. More than likely, they'll just project the Rapture and Second Coming further into the future. Never underestimate the power of religious belief. It can create monuments on the scale of Europe's great cathedrals. It can also create horrors like the terrorist attacks that destroyed the Twin Towers and claimed nearly 3,000.
I'm not so sure about that; I don't think that it will be done to the zeal that we see right now. We went through the Y2K stuff and then the movement still believes that the end most come by the 2020s- or not the end, but the rapture or emergence of AntiChrist. I am not worried about regular sects of Christianity, but I am about the more extreme fundamentalist sects. But even then, I do feel like future generations will rebel against the more radical fundamentalist and fascist-like ultra right generations and become more secular and more moderate. I think that I just think that all of this will come to a head and that we will become more secularized like like England has become, although I am not sure the US will become more atheist.
People used to think the world would end when the Roman Empire was still powerful. People thought the world would end on 1000 CE. There will still be people around who will think we are living in the End Times. Such irrational certainty is as an unfortunate aspect of human nature.

Whether or not such people will be in positions of power in the future is an entirely different issue, however. Hopefully they will not be.Right, people did predict the end of the world back then, but the new rapture movement is relatively new. If I am not mistaken, it began to take root in the early 20th century.

[MonCapitan2002]

I think it might have roots in the 19th, actually. I really should read up on when it started.

[MonCapitan2002]

1000 CE.

Militant atheist!
Just because I want the world under tightfisted atheist rule does not make me militant. Oh, wait...

[Beth]

I think it might have roots in the 19th, actually. I really should read up on when it started.Premillennialism was being taught at the very end of the 19th century, but it really did not become popularized in the US until Blackstone wrote a book about the Second Coming.- I used to have his book, but I cannot remember the name... It was "Jesus' Second Coming"-or omething like that. I know that premillennialism has existed since the late 18th century, but I don't remember reading about it really catching on until Blackstone's book.

If I have time to look this up later I will. My info might be wrong since I can only vaguely remember this stuff. If it is, I aplologize in advance.

[Beth]

A point, many churches (including Fundamentalist) teach against this type of fundamentalism because they think that this charasmatic-type stuff is a perversion of Christianity.

[livius drusus]

Well, damn you all. My Bible camps were not about raising Christian Jihad warriors, but that at least would have been engaging. Ours were about Bible study, breakfast, devotional whatever, Bible study, lunch, clean up the cabins, Bible study, a bit of sports (no cutoffs above the knee, boys & girls swim separately regardless of age), dinner, devotional whatever, "campfire" (kids do skits & such, with or without a religious theme, at least one of which will cause some sort of controversy that causes one of the ministers to harangue us about it for the next 2 days), lights out. Fun times. The interminable Bible study hours were the worst.

Oh man... And I thought the evening discussions about God in sports (one night it was just a viewing a Chariots of Fire) were onerous. We spent all day playing different sports, and I don't think anybody even owned any shorts that weren't above the knee. How are they even shorts if they're knee-length or longer? They're freakin' capris!

[Sock Puppet]

Exactly. I remember one counselor came equipped with qualifying cutoffs, and everybody else just wore long pants, just like it says in the Bible that everybody should.

[Artemis Entreri]

I missed the long pants verse.... where is that? It must be near the "everybody get dressed up and get together to worship on Sundays" verse that I've yet to find.
I guess you could say I've had a liberal christian upbringing. That's probably why I still hold on to it.

[Clutch Munny]

They are playing with fire. One of two things will happen. The first is that the tinderbox they are creating will explode and destroy this country in violent convulsion. The second is that the convulsion won't destroy the country but incite a backlash that will likely cost tens of millions of lives. They are playing with fire and we will get burned because of them.

Well, false dichotomy is a critical thinking concept...

;)
Heh. What I meant is that they'll either destroy this country and balkanise it or cause a backlash against them that would result in them being stomped on rather violently. Either scenario would fuck over the country.

As vm pointed out, this is precisely what made your reasoning a false dilemma. Many other options exist (in particular the most plausible ones, though that is strictly inessential to the fallacy).

I thought it was ironic that the Hosannas wafting up in the name of critical thinking were followed up so quickly with such a blatant fallacy. Your subsequent unconcern at having committed it strikes me as interestingly parallel to the reasoning of the people who are making you scared. Maybe you ought to slow down and reconsider your whole approach to this and similar issues.

[Angakuk]

Sheeesh! Sock Puppet, I thought our Bible camp administration was being excessively prude when they insisted that the tops of the girls' two-piece bathing suits be designed in such a manner as to not expose any cleavage.

[Beth]

From what I hear, you guys should have ditched bible camp and you should have went to band camp.;)

[viscousmemories]

I don't remember much of the details about what happened at Word of God camps, just a lot of games and crafts. Also, they did this thing one year where they had certificates for Brown Bears, Black Bears and Grizzly Bears.

To earn a Brown Bear certificate, each day you had to wake up first thing in the morning, run down to the end of the dock on the pond and without stopping leap right in to the cold water.

For the Black Bear certificate, each day you had to wake up first thing in the morning, run out to the field and do calesthenics.

To earn the Grizzly Bear certificate, you had to wake up first thing in the morning, run down to the end of the dock on the pond and without stopping, leap right in to the cold water, then run over to the field and do calesthenics.

I was one of the few and proud who earned a Grizzly Bear certificate. :smugnod:

[Dingfod]

Wow, you're awesome.

[viscousmemories]

Yep, my three certified accomplisments in life: GED, Novell CNE, Grizzly Bear.

[Beth]

Wow, you're awesome.So is Grizzly Adams.

Ice cold water, huh? I would have been happy to sleep in and earn no certificate. You musta been a good kid, vm.Yep, my three certified accomplisments in life: GED, Novell CNE, Grizzly Bear.You should be proud!:)

[MonCapitan2002]

They are playing with fire. One of two things will happen. The first is that the tinderbox they are creating will explode and destroy this country in violent convulsion. The second is that the convulsion won't destroy the country but incite a backlash that will likely cost tens of millions of lives. They are playing with fire and we will get burned because of them.

Well, false dichotomy is a critical thinking concept...

;)
Heh. What I meant is that they'll either destroy this country and balkanise it or cause a backlash against them that would result in them being stomped on rather violently. Either scenario would fuck over the country.

As vm pointed out, this is precisely what made your reasoning a false dilemma. Many other options exist (in particular the most plausible ones, though that is strictly inessential to the fallacy).

I thought it was ironic that the Hosannas wafting up in the name of critical thinking were followed up so quickly with such a blatant fallacy. Your subsequent unconcern at having committed it strikes me as interestingly parallel to the reasoning of the people who are making you scared. Maybe you ought to slow down and reconsider your whole approach to this and similar issues.
I think such a negative outcome is entirely plausible. These people are being trained to become Crusaders of God. They aren't being taught to accept moderation. While I hope that I am wrong, the people leading these fundamentalist churches are taking an all or nothing approach. I think we are headed down the road to confrontation. Hopefully, the confrontation will be political and not violent.

[viscousmemories]

I think such a negative outcome is entirely plausible.
Clutch didn't say either of the two outcomes you predicted were not plausible, he said they were not the most plausible of the many possible outcomes.

In any case the point he's making is that when you said "One of two things will happen", followed by two possible outcomes, you seemed to be suggesting that no other outcome is possible. If that's what you meant to imply, then it's an example of the bifurcation fallacy, or "false dilemma", because you're essentially saying "only A or B can happen" when in fact C, D, E, F... etc. are also possible.

[Artemis Entreri]

In any case the point he's making is that when you said "One of two things will happen", followed by two possible outcomes, you seemed to be suggesting that no other outcome is possible. If that's what you meant to imply, then it's an example of the bifurcation fallacy, or "false dilemma", because you're essentially saying "only A or B can happen" when in fact C, D, E, F... etc. are also possible.

Man, you guys are anal about that kind of thing aren't you. I'm pretty sure most people realize that they are not omnicognizant and therefore they can't state absolutes about things they don't know from presonal experience. I would take his statement as meaning that those are the two things he thinks will happen. If you don't agree then offer a different possiblilty that you think is more likely. Challenge his position not his phrasing.

Personally I think this will remain a relatively small sect of people that will not gain any significant power and eventually fizzle out. This country swings between liberal and conservative, religious and secular. I think we're about due for a swing.

[viscousmemories]

Man, you guys are anal about that kind of thing aren't you.
Yeah, that's pretty much what thinking critically means.

[Artemis Entreri]

Man, you guys are anal about that kind of thing aren't you.
Yeah, that's pretty much what thinking critically means.

I think it's more like being a dick. It's stating the obvious. Ofcourse any number of things could happen. I think we all understand that. The world is choatic. Do we really have to make sure everything we say is ammended with "that's just one possibility" or "i'm speaking in general"

[viscousmemories]

I think it's more like being a dick. It's stating the obvious. Ofcourse any number of things could happen. I think we all understand that. The world is choatic. Do we really have to make sure everything we say is ammended with "that's just one possibility" or "i'm speaking in general"
So to avoid being a dick, I should just assume that whatever someone says they meant something perfectly coherent and reasonable? Sorry, we apparently have different ideas about what it means to be a dick. I prefer to leave mind-reading to the Sylvia Browne's of the world and address what people actually say. Notice I didn't make any assumptions about Moncapitan's intent or lob any personal insults at him (like you just did to me) I simply pointed out how one interpretation of his comments is logically fallacious. If critical thinking is of no importance to you, so be it. Moncap seems to think it's important.

[livius drusus]

Do we really have to make sure everything we say is ammended with "that's just one possibility" or "i'm speaking in general"
No, but we really do have to avoid saying "one of two things will happen" if what we really mean is "out of the million things might happen, I think these two are the most likely". Especially if we're envisioning these scenarios in the process of bemoaning everyone else's failures to think critically.

As Clutch notes in his two excellent (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/article.php?a=8) articles (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/article.php?a=9) on the subject, examining our own assumptions and biases is the crux of critical thinking. So if we're going to pat ourselves on the back for being ever-so-critical in contrast to the people we're sneering at for writhing on the ground, then we'd better make sure we're not talking utter shit, don't you think?

[Clutch Munny]

In any case the point he's making is that when you said "One of two things will happen", followed by two possible outcomes, you seemed to be suggesting that no other outcome is possible. If that's what you meant to imply, then it's an example of the bifurcation fallacy, or "false dilemma", because you're essentially saying "only A or B can happen" when in fact C, D, E, F... etc. are also possible.

Man, you guys are anal about that kind of thing aren't you. I'm pretty sure most people realize that they are not omnicognizant and therefore they can't state absolutes about things they don't know from presonal experience.

Yet that's exactly what the comment did, to which I first responded.

I would take his statement as meaning that those are the two things he thinks will happen. If you don't agree then offer a different possiblilty that you think is more likely. Challenge his position not his phrasing.

Who challenged his phrasing, of all things?

How about we challenge people's positions by challenging the reasoning upon which they base them? Of course he meant that those are the only two possibilities he finds likely. And I meant that this is an extremely powerful dichotomous assumption, one that requires justification if less than obvious. MonCap's dichotomy being less than obvious, his invoking it as grounds to be "scared" is fallacious.

(False dichotomy is an interesting and quite unusual fallacy, by the way; like begging the question, all its instances are strictly valid!)

[viscousmemories]

Incidentally, I want people to challenge me when and where they think my reasoning is flawed. I consider it disrespectful and/or uncaring to just smile and nod, or worse, express agreement or encouragement, when someone makes a fallacious argument or claim, instead of taking the time and effort to challenge it. Of course like most people who aren't Clutch, I don't always see my own logical errors even when they're pointed out, and I'm much less likely to see them when the criticism is couched in insults.

[Artemis Entreri]

I think to argue over the fact that he thinks one of two things will happen is well... I don't give a damn.
I think the more conducive counter to that kind of statement is to either debunk one or both of his proposed outcomes or to counter with an idea that is more likely.

[Plant Woman]

I grew up in this religion, it's very real and if they were in power I could see those scenarios happening. I hope that there are enough checks and balances in the system to prevent it. What I see from the last 6 years makes me wonder though.

[livius drusus]

I think to argue over the fact that he thinks one of two things will happen is well... I don't give a damn.
I think the more conducive counter to that kind of statement is to either debunk one or both of his proposed outcomes or to counter with an idea that is more likely.
Nobody's stopping you from responding however you think is best. I myself prefer to point out that someone advocating critical thinking should apply it to his own arguments before bemoaning the lack of it in someone else.

[MonCapitan2002]

I think such a negative outcome is entirely plausible.
Clutch didn't say either of the two outcomes you predicted were not plausible, he said they were not the most plausible of the many possible outcomes.

In any case the point he's making is that when you said "One of two things will happen", followed by two possible outcomes, you seemed to be suggesting that no other outcome is possible. If that's what you meant to imply, then it's an example of the bifurcation fallacy, or "false dilemma", because you're essentially saying "only A or B can happen" when in fact C, D, E, F... etc. are also possible.
No. I was not intending to mean that those were the only possible outcomes. I thought he meant that both outcomes are basically the same. There are other outcomes that can happen, but I happen to think the more positive ones are less likely.