Let him who comes with the hearing option….let him hear.

[verax-acis]

Because I hear this accusation so often I feel compelled to answer. Because this attitude perpetrates philosophical arguments so often I feel I must speak out in rebuke because the double standard is blatant and ugly.
“GOD makes us flawed and then punishes us for the flaws in his creation.”
To respond to this I will insist you take a position and remain there on. You must take a stand and stay put. Entrench yourself there and do not move. You can not jump back and forth at will. You can not take one position and then jump to the other.
So the question is this….

DO YOU BELIEVE IN FREE WILL OR NOT? YES OR NO?

Pick one and stay there. The double minded practice of jumping back and forth to prove GOD spiteful and wrong will no longer be tolerated.

SO
FREE WILL EXISTS or NO SUCH THING. You must choose one but then you must stay there.

IF you believe in free will then you are admitting that it is in fact your fault when you do something wrong. Therefore if you wind up in hell it would in fact be punishment because it is your doing. Its your fault.

IF you don’t believe in free will then what you are saying is, you are nothing more than a organic machine. A computer running it’s course. Your will is nothing more than a illusion when in truth your decisions are only programmed reactions to variables including biology, environment, programmed directives, and installed motivations. You are nothing more than a machine. THEN BE A MACHINE.

BUT YOU CAN NO LONGER CALL IT PUNISHMENT!!!

If I take my car to the junkyard do I say “I’m punishing my car?” “NO”
If I trash my computer do I say “I’m punishing my computer?” “NO”

If you believe in free will then it’s your fault your in hell and it can be called PUNISHMENT.
If you don’t believe in free will then you are just a machine and if you wind up in hell it’s not PUNISHMENT. It just is what it is. You are what you are and you have been made for destruction or honor. It’s not PUNISHMENT. It’s just the way you computer was made.

Therefore I will liken you to an escort that is angry it was not made a Porsche.
I will liken you to a car built for a demolition derby.
I will liken you to a beautiful Ferrari built only to crash in the Hollywood studio so that all who DO HAVE FREE WILL, will shake their heads in horror at the terrible waist.

You believe you have no free will….then you don’t….so be a machine and never again use the term PUNISHMENT OR REWARD when referring to the destiny of the machines.

http://www.downspout3d.com/misc/luthmove.gif

[verax-acis]

Since no one is responding....I'm going to bed. I'll check back in the morning.

[D. Scarlatti]

<nm>

[Non Homogenized]

Let's try an analogy.

Someone spends a long time designing a toy. Carefully, and methodically, they build it piece by piece. They even assemble a second toy which interacts with the first toy. Then, when they are finished, they take the two toys, and test them.

Everything works exactly as planned! The toys function (both seperately and together) in exactly the manner they were designed to. The designer of the toys screams in righteous anger! Why can't the stupid fucking toys just do that one damned thing he wanted them to (but designed them not to)? It must be the fault of the toy. He hurls it across the room, then stomps on it. This precipitates a temper tantrum that ends with the creator of the toy wild-eyed and breathing heavily, and the toy lying broken, the pieces scattered. The toymaker collects all the pieces, for he has one more plan. He melts all the pieces into one big irregular blob of whatever, and then sets it on his desk. From then on, whenever he gets frustrated, he burns a hole through the blob.

Is this a reasonable course of action? Would you describe this toymaker as "just" or "loving"?


Now, as for why your argument fails, without resorting to an analogy:
Regardless of free will, god, according to you, knew all possible outcomes from the onset. In spite of this omniscience, as well as his omnipotence and omnibenevolence, he also created such a place as hell to punish those who didn't believe in him, which he also created, knowing that they wouldn't believe in him, knowing how to convince them to believe in him, and with it taking no effort on his part to make them believe in him. But it's my fault for not believing in him, right? It's somehow my fault that he, when he set the whole shebang up, did so in just such a way as to ensure that I would exist, and go to hell.

You do realize how stupid that sounds, right?

[Legs]

Let him who comes with the hearing option….let him hear.

Because I hear this accusation so often

Who are you hanging out with? who even speaks like that?

Dude, you need some cooler friends.

[Awareness]

Because I hear this accusation so often I feel compelled to answer. Because this attitude perpetrates philosophical arguments so often I feel I must speak out in rebuke because the double standard is blatant and ugly.
“GOD makes us flawed and then punishes us for the flaws in his creation.”

Awareness: We came to this earth flawed! Oh so true, in many ways, but the only being, when you also say God is a being, that is punishing, is man.

To respond to this I will insist you take a position and remain there on. You must take a stand and stay put. Entrench yourself there and do not move. You can not jump back and forth at will. You can not take one position and then jump to the other.

Awareness: This is not needed to say, just answer, if your belief is strong, then you need not tell people how to answer, just answer.


So the question is this….

DO YOU BELIEVE IN FREE WILL OR NOT? YES OR NO?

Awareness:There is noway ro answer this. What you have, you have.

Pick one and stay there.

Awareness: You do not want a discussion do you?

This attitude fits right in webcamsex.

The double minded practice of jumping back and forth to prove GOD spiteful and wrong will no longer be tolerated.

Awareness: There is NO WAY you can prove LIFE is wrong.

SO
FREE WILL EXISTS or NO SUCH THING. You must choose one but then you must stay there.




Awareness: A will has everybody, God given from the day you were born.

[COLOR=Black]Verax Acis: IF you believe in free will then you are admitting that it is in fact your fault when you do something wrong. Therefore if you wind up in hell it would in fact be punishment because it is your doing. Its your fault.

Awareness: It is a fact, when you do something wrong. it is your fault!
Therefore you wind up in jail( I am talking about real wrong here!)

Awareness: But, a man does not deserve to die for it, but punished for it, because
evilness is also embedded in scociety, which drove him or her there.





Awareness: Let just say it, as if God was a Being, for your sake, with a Will of course,
and everything that man does, lets face it God can do anything.

God made man with his faults, and the most important thing,man is weak, man can be evil, man can certainly be tempted.
The evilness, which certainly exists, which God also created, exists only in man.
A will, man has, he can do anything he wants, it was so scince the dawn of time.
The only one that can guide us, is at first ourselves, and maybe God is guiding
us also, but that we can not and may not depend on.

The will is there, look at our late Adolf Hilter as a example of our COUNTLESS
faults, we are learning Verax acis,God wants it that way, that is LIFE.

IF you don’t believe in free will then what you are saying is, you are nothing more than a organic machine. A computer running it’s course. Your will is nothing more than a illusion when in truth your decisions are only programmed reactions to variables including biology, environment, programmed directives, and installed motivations. You are nothing more than a machine. THEN BE A MACHINE.

Awareness: Again , free will, or not we have it, thank God!!
Lord almighty!! Amen!!
Awareness: [COLOR=Blue]Our body can become a robot, when you your own self is not there any more.


I take my car to the junkyard do I say “I’m punishing my car?” “NO”
If I trash my computer do I say “I’m punishing my computer?” “NO”




Awareness: [COLOR=Blue][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]Some really are in love with their objects, crying after so many years of faithfull duty. Or they almost wanna stick their dick in the tailpipe of their shiny brand new car(Old, but for your sake Verax acis)


If you believe in free will then it’s your fault your in hell and it can be called PUNISHMENT.
If you don’t believe in free will then you are just a machine and if you wind up in hell it’s not PUNISHMENT. It just is what it is. You are what you are and you have been made for destruction or honor. It’s not PUNISHMENT. It’s just the way you computer was made.

Therefore I will liken you to an escort that is angry it was not made a Porsche.
I will liken you to a car built for a demolition derby.
I will liken you to a beautiful Ferrari built only to crash in the Hollywood studio so that all who DO HAVE FREE WILL, will shake their heads in horror at the terrible waist.

Awareness: You are trying, but it needs a little more pazaz!

Nope sorry, for that, try to feel, than write. Its hard when you may not`have
a will. At least you can buy a lie with ten hail Mary's.

You believe you have no free will….then you don’t….so be a machine and never again use the term PUNISHMENT OR REWARD when referring to the destiny of the machines.

Awareness: This is my belief, Verax acis, we are all living souls together.
In other words we have "received a body" to live.
Only the soul can feel, but must have a body to know that he or she is feeling.

The will you talk about, is purely a feeling of the soul.
Free or not, you Got it.

Only man punishes, it is such a little act!

[Freddy]

Free will is an illusion. There is no empirical evidence for free will. Science has not found evidence for it, in fack it has plenty of evidence for a deterministic model of human behavior.

[Annie]

Because this attitude perpetrates philosophical arguments so often I feel I must speak out in rebuke because the double standard is blatant and ugly.
“GOD makes us flawed, and then punishes us for the flaws in his creation.”
To respond to this I will insist you take a position and remain there on. You must take a stand and stay put. Entrench yourself there and do not move.

Actually, most of the 'christians' are Firmly entrenched in that sorry belief. And make not the mistake of thinking this is only limited to some 'eventual hell'.

One of the reasons I first came to FF, is as in our Practice, I've found more 'atheists' (than not) more readily willing to ex-change their sickness chronicities, for choices more to their liking, like *quintessential Health*.


So the question is this….

DO YOU BELIEVE IN FREE WILL, OR NOT? YES OR NO?

IF you believe in free will - then you are admitting that it is in fact your fault when you do something wrong. Therefore if you wind up in hell it would in fact be punishment because it is your doing. Its your fault.

IF you don’t believe in free will - then what you are saying is, you are nothing more than a organic machine. A computer running it’s course. Your will is nothing more than a illusion when in truth your decisions are only programmed reactions to variables including biology, environment, programmed directives, and installed motivations. You are nothing more than a machine. THEN BE A MACHINE.


Verax-acis, understand that model - the 'Matrix-evolutionary "man as a bio-chemical machine" model is what makes many FF's (including most 'christians') world predominantly go round. It's the Entrenched, preferred Religion, with various Religeous/Medical/Education/Government establishments in it, playing 'god'.

They like getting routine Tune-ups, getting their oil transfused, having their Neurotropic sparkplugs fiddled with, and exchanging this model of motor/heart, transplanted for another one... AND wondering confusedly why this/that drug ain't doin' the job that their (cut-out) "organs" once did... even as they drop, from one dis-abling condition, after another.

So, let them live inside the Matrix. They're quite miserably-happy in it. Stop frustrating yourself over harmful, useless philosophy/psych-101 antics. It's not worth it.

You've got better, much better things to spend your time, energy & money on, I'm sure you realize.

Live :yup: *well*!

Annie :wave:

[Beth]

You've got better, much better things to spend your time, energy & money on, I'm sure you realize.Like your $2,000 classes on *self-healing*?

[Watser?]

You've got better, much better things to spend your time, energy & money on, I'm sure you realize.

I doubt it

[Awareness]

Because this attitude perpetrates philosophical arguments so often I feel I must speak out in rebuke because the double standard is blatant and ugly.
“GOD makes us flawed, and then punishes us for the flaws in his creation.”
To respond to this I will insist you take a position and remain there on. You must take a stand and stay put. Entrench yourself there and do not move.

Actually, most of the 'christians' are Firmly entrenched in that sorry belief. And make not the mistake of thinking this is only limited to some 'eventual hell'.

One of the reasons I first came to FF, is as in our Practice, I've found more 'atheists' (than not) more readily willing to ex-change their sickness chronicities, for choices more to their liking, like *quintessential Health*.


So the question is this….

DO YOU BELIEVE IN FREE WILL, OR NOT? YES OR NO?

IF you believe in free will - then you are admitting that it is in fact your fault when you do something wrong. Therefore if you wind up in hell it would in fact be punishment because it is your doing. Its your fault.

IF you don’t believe in free will - then what you are saying is, you are nothing more than a organic machine. A computer running it’s course. Your will is nothing more than a illusion when in truth your decisions are only programmed reactions to variables including biology, environment, programmed directives, and installed motivations. You are nothing more than a machine. THEN BE A MACHINE.


Verax-acis, understand that model - the 'Matrix-evolutionary "man as a bio-chemical machine" model is what makes many FF's (including most 'christians') world predominantly go round. It's the Entrenched, preferred Religion, with various Religeous/Medical/Education/Government establishments in it, playing 'god'.

They like getting routine Tune-ups, getting their oil transfused, having their Neurotropic sparkplugs fiddled with, and exchanging this model of motor/heart, transplanted for another one... AND wondering confusedly why this/that drug ain't doin' the job that their (cut-out) "organs" once did... even as they drop, from one dis-abling condition, after another.

So, let them live inside the Matrix. They're quite miserably-happy in it. Stop frustrating yourself over harmful, useless philosophy/psych-101 antics. It's not worth it.

You've got better, much better things to spend your time, energy & money on, I'm sure you realize.

Live :yup: *well*!

Annie :wave:


Nice attitude, to go forth with, thank you oh so much.
You do not, and never need classes for self healing Annie, it is a waste, indeed.
The "magnets" between your hands have identical poles, thus bringing your hands together, and folding them is unnatural.

Be friendly once in a while, if you can, this can never be done with a free will,OR ANY WILL FOR THAT MATTER.

AT LEAST LOVE, FRIENDLYNESS, COMPASSION, REMORSE, ADMIRATION, is a
"wanting to" off limits, for these special feelings.

[Dingfod]

I think the threads where verax-acis, Annie and Awareness all post in them are very special threads.

[Awareness]

Free will is an illusion. There is no empirical evidence for free will. Science has not found evidence for it, in fack it has plenty of evidence for a deterministic model of human behavior.


Who is then responsible for your actions, Freddy?

Yes, of course, your GOd who made you.

YES, FOR ZA NEXT 1000 YEARS, I WILL MAKE ZEM BETTER!

ZO, MY CREATURES, YOU WILL NOW BE PERFECT.

[verax-acis]

Let's try an analogy.

Someone spends a long time designing a toy. Carefully, and methodically, they build it piece by piece. They even assemble a second toy which interacts with the first toy. Then, when they are finished, they take the two toys, and test them.

Everything works exactly as planned! The toys function (both seperately and together) in exactly the manner they were designed to. The designer of the toys screams in righteous anger! Why can't the stupid fucking toys just do that one damned thing he wanted them to (but designed them not to)? It must be the fault of the toy. He hurls it across the room, then stomps on it. This precipitates a temper tantrum that ends with the creator of the toy wild-eyed and breathing heavily, and the toy lying broken, the pieces scattered. The toymaker collects all the pieces, for he has one more plan. He melts all the pieces into one big irregular blob of whatever, and then sets it on his desk. From then on, whenever he gets frustrated, he burns a hole through the blob.

Is this a reasonable course of action? Would you describe this toymaker as "just" or "loving"?


Now, as for why your argument fails, without resorting to an analogy:
Regardless of free will, god, according to you, knew all possible outcomes from the onset. In spite of this omniscience, as well as his omnipotence and omnibenevolence, he also created such a place as hell to punish those who didn't believe in him, which he also created, knowing that they wouldn't believe in him, knowing how to convince them to believe in him, and with it taking no effort on his part to make them believe in him. But it's my fault for not believing in him, right? It's somehow my fault that he, when he set the whole shebang up, did so in just such a way as to ensure that I would exist, and go to hell.

You do realize how stupid that sounds, right?


Sorry I haven't responded till now. I've been busy.

In your reply you proceeded to do exactly what I told you not to. You said GOD made us incapable of decision and then "punishes" us. Did the post confuse you? Did you not get the point? The point was not "free will exists" or "free will doesn't exist".....It was If you chose to believe it does not STOP CALLING IT PUNISHMENT. Read the post!!!!!

But you're analogy above is exactly what humans do every day. Free will to you (as expressed in your reply) does not exist, therefore punishment does not exist either (as expressed in my original post). If free will does not exist then there is no real sense of good and evil. Everything is simply a running program unable to truly make choices. Therefore "Good" as you described us labeling GOD can not exist, can it? Because "Good" would mean desiring one way but receiving the other. Since we are all machines incapable of really making a choice then how could GOD expect any other? Therefore your argument is double minded and silly. I'm sorry if that’s too straight forward. It's a must that you see it though.

http://www.downspout3d.com/beutifulplaces/beutifulblue.gif

[Stormlight]

I think the threads where verax-acis, Annie and Awareness all post in them are very special threads.

Agreed. And Awareness is by far the sanest of the Trio Infernal. :yup:

[Javaman]

Free will to you (as expressed in your reply) does not exist ...His point was that 'free will' is incompatible with an omniscient deity - not that 'free will' does not exist. Your OP is useless, though, for those that don't have a god-belief. If a non-theist argues for or against free will, it is only as a way to point out the logical inconsistency of either stance with respect to certain god-beliefs. Jumping back and forth is fine as both sides create big problems for the superstitious.

I tell you what, why don't you tell us what you think 'The Truth'TM is and we can discuss it, OK?

[erimir]

If I created a machine that was capable of truly suffering, and then I tortured it endlessly, I would be a despicable being. It is irrelevant that it is a machine.

[verax-acis]

Free will to you (as expressed in your reply) does not exist ...His point was that 'free will' is incompatible with an omniscient deity - not that 'free will' does not exist. Your OP is useless, though, for those that don't have a god-belief. If a non-theist argues for or against free will, it is only as a way to point out the logical inconsistency of either stance with respect to certain god-beliefs. Jumping back and forth is fine as both sides create big problems for the superstitious.

I tell you what, why don't you tell us what you think 'The Truth'TM is and we can discuss it, OK?

Sorry again........I can't respond very often because of other engagements but I'm glad you asked this question because I have been meaning to write my person views on free will for some time. So let's begin......

First of all "FREE WILL" is a concept. What does this concept mean? Simply put it means a being has it's very own choice. Now this gets complicated but I will attempt an illustration with a robot.

For us to create a robot that has TRUE free will we must meet two criteria.

[FIRST POINT]
The first is this. All (and I do mean ALL even down to the tiniest variable) internal and external motivations and directives must all be absolutely equal. If (at least in the very beginning) one is tipped to either side then you really don’t have free will. You have a domino effect. So you can see here how endlessly difficult this would be for man to really pull off because the variables must be controlled to infinity. But to get “FREE WILL” as we conceptualize it in our heads, everything must be absolutely balanced to set up the REAL choice. Next is where we leave logical thought. You must somehow give the robot the ability to chose on it’s own without internal or external motivations pushing towards either choice. We as humans don’t even know how this would be accomplished because if we built a robot with all motivations equal then it would simply lock up and chose nothing. But….this does not change the fact that this must be accomplished to achieve the true concept we have in our minds of “FREE WILL.” Much like many other human concepts “FREE WILL” joins the illogical group of “GOD”… “INFINITY” … “UNIVERSE that has just always existed”….You see. There are some things we know exist but somehow escape our logic. Since we attribute “FREE WILL” to the human animal, is it any wonder humans consider themselves gods. Even in the bible it is written “I said you are gods.” The concept of “FREE WILL” (as I illustrated above) joins the category of eternity so is it any wonder all cultures from the beginning of mankind have professed a belief that our essence is eternal. Remember…if we were honest with ourselves and took up the task of creating a robot that had “TRUE FREE WILL” as we humans conceptualize in our minds then the robot must first have absolutely equal motivations and directives and must somehow posses the ability to chose one or the other without being forced onto the decision by internal or external variables. Otherwise you simply have a robot and the robot fails to truly posses our concept of “FREE WILL.” Or even “FREE THOUGHT.”

[SECOND BIG POINT]

For us to create a robot that had “TRUE FREE WILL” we must not know what it is going to do. In other words we must not know by looking at the variables and motivations (internal or external) what it’s going to do. If we do know by means of variables then we have failed in our attempt at “TRUE FREE WILL”. Now…..When we attribute this to GOD it sounds like blasphemy because GOD is an omniscient being. It sounds like a contradictory statement to say GOD created beings that had the ability to choose without him knowing what their choice would be. The mistake we make is forgetting that GOD is outside of time. He created beings with “TRUE FREE WILL” inside the constraints of time. If GOD was in time himself then he would not be omniscient. Time itself is the leash on the gods. Although he does not know what we will do by looking at the variables he does know what we will do being outside of time. We have true choice but he sees all our decisions as if the all happened at once. We make the mistake of thinking GOD predicts the future by counting the variables like we would have to if we wanted to predict the future. Events are spread out in front of GOD like a great role of film where he can see every event at once. Therefore as long as he creates them inside time to have “TRUE FREE WILL” he still knows everything that is and was and will be. Some will say “well if GOD was in time then he couldn’t know what we would chose and therefore wouldn’t be omniscient” but that’s just as pointless as saying if I didn’t have eyes then I wouldn’t be able to see.

And those are the two big points. I hope this illustrates how man can have “TRUE FREE WILL.”

Remember “FREE WILL” is a illogical concept just like “GOD, infinity, eternity or a universe that was just always here. Its what makes us truly god like. Any less fails the concept of “TRUE FREE WILL”

Also remember….GOD does not know what you will do by counting the variables but knows what you will do by existing outside time and watching your every decision.

http://www.downspout3d.com/misc/luthmove.gif

[Javaman]

The mistake we make is forgetting that GOD is outside of time. He created beings with “TRUE FREE WILL” inside the constraints of time. If GOD was in time himself then he would not be omniscient. Time itself is the leash on the gods.OK. Perhaps, though, he is not omnicient in that respect. The god of the Christian bible is described as a reactionary god. That is, one who sees occurences playing out and then acts. Why would one who knew how things would play out (being 'outside of time') start them in that fashion in the first place? Why create an agent who would turn to evil? Why create knowingly-flawed humans especially if you knew (always had the knowledge?) that you'd have to wipe all but eight of them out in a fit of anger? Why provide prophetic visions of a final war with an unknown outcome if the outcome is actually known?

You seem so knowledgeable about some aspects of your god. Perhaps you have something more than the usual hand-waving typically reserved for such questions. Further, your use of 'forgetting' and 'Remember' is patronizing in that post. You are simply making assertions -- but that's really no big deal as it is par for the course. It sounds like you are just of the mindset that we have the freedom to make any choice humanly possible yet those choices are already known.

OK. :meh:

[verax-acis]

The mistake we make is forgetting that GOD is outside of time. He created beings with “TRUE FREE WILL” inside the constraints of time. If GOD was in time himself then he would not be omniscient. Time itself is the leash on the gods.OK. Perhaps, though, he is not omnicient in that respect. The god of the Christian bible is described as a reactionary god. That is, one who sees occurences playing out and then acts. Why would one who knew how things would play out (being 'outside of time') start them in that fashion in the first place? Why create an agent who would turn to evil? Why create knowingly-flawed humans especially if you knew (always had the knowledge?) that you'd have to wipe all but eight of them out in a fit of anger? Why provide prophetic visions of a final war with an unknown outcome if the outcome is actually known?

You seem so knowledgeable about some aspects of your god. Perhaps you have something more than the usual hand-waving typically reserved for such questions. Further, your use of 'forgetting' and 'Remember' is patronizing in that post. You are simply making assertions -- but that's really no big deal as it is par for the course. It sounds like you are just of the mindset that we have the freedom to make any choice humanly possible yet those choices are already known.

OK. :meh:


I try not to come off in a negative way although many times I fail. Sometimes because I loose emotional control and sometimes because of the heated nature of these topics makes words stand out in a way I didn’t intend. “Forgetting” and “remembering” was unintentional. Your reply sounded both level and well thought out so I am certainly not trying to rock a calm discussion. I say them as much to myself as anyone else. My own thoughts often accidentally put GOD into time, and it messes up my understanding of a topic I’m concentrating on.

As for your other questions…..GOD being reactionary. The bible describes GOD in a way that could and does come off reactionary and in a way it is but the reactions are not necessarily carried out at the time of the cause.

I’ll give an example…
The bible says GOD caused the plagues on Egypt (locust, flies etc…) because pharaoh was being stubborn. This sounds like GOD reacted to his choice at the time he made it, but in fact GOD knew what Pharaoh would chose to do and those plagues had been cooking since the dawn of time. This is why people will sometimes pray for things and then receive what they prayed for but disbelieve that it was actually GOD that preformed the task by reason of the circumstances around the result showing that it had been coming even before they prayed for it. This tricks people into thinking it would have happened anyway whether or not they did or didn’t pray for it. But GOD knew from the beginning of time what you will pray for and the answers to your prayers have been in the making since time began. So….in a way GOD is reactionary….it’s just kind of confusing to think in terms that GOD has already answered your every prayer long before you considered to pray.

As far as GOD creating us even when he knew we would turn on him (like the devil and mankind). I don’t think the decision to turn against him really concerns GOD. Not in the way we sometimes think. We sometimes think the only goal of GOD is to make creatures that love him. He could have done this just like we can do this but I think he wanted more. He wanted love that can be willingly denied. Just like we don’t want to make robots that sit around all day complimenting us because we programmed them to, GOD doesn’t want forced robot love. I also think it’s important to consider the fact that GOD doesn’t just abandon the ones that chose to go against him. The devil is the supreme of rebellious creatures and GOD has not left him with nothing. The devil enjoys pride, lust, vengeance, greed and all the rest. GOD did not have to make these emotions enjoyable. We all know by experience these emotions are enjoyable, even if they are not the highest enjoyment. If they were not enjoyable people would not do them so much. So in a way GOD created enjoyment even for them who would turn against him. I would urge them to turn from those enjoyments to experience greater enjoyments like love, hope, courage, charity but it is their choice. But GOD did not leave them empty handed. As it is written…they have six which is lower than the perfect seven but it is still not five or lower. They still have their pleasures. And its my personal view that it’s never to late. The bible says the wicked will be destroyed in the end but what does it mean by destruction? Maybe it means everyone will turn and make it to heaven. If that is true then all the wicked were truly destroyed because there are no more people choosing to be wicked. If you took Charles Manson and made him companionate, loving and sane then people would say “hay…you destroyed Charles Manson. I don’t know who this guy is but the Charles Manson I knew is gone.”

This might be what the bible meant by the wicked will be left in hell forever. If a man goes to hell and hell changes him. Then he makes it to heaven. You could say the person that once was, has been left in hell forever because the new person doesn’t resemble the old very much. It doesn’t necessarily mean that soul has to remain in hell. So maybe in the end it will be alright for everyone. Even the devil.

http://www.downspout3d.com/beutifulplaces/beutifulblue.gif

[Javaman]

That you choose to interpret the collected writings of your bible is fine. I have to say that it doesn't really interest me all that much. You make as many unsupported assertions as the next believer who has come to different conclusions. From a scholarly standpoint, YHWH's progression from one god among many to this omni-everything one of today makes the one-upmanship among competing groups fairly apparent. The same progression from The Accuser's right-hand-man of God to the agent of evil ruling his own sub-kingdom is even more apparent. I find I can't buy any of it.

One last question though: Does your god, as you interpret him, ever influence the daily actions of man? I can't believe your answer would be anything but 'yes'. If so, think about what you are saying. This outside-of-time god is sometimes inside of time. His influencing actions speak against what you've previously written.

[CaDan]

Free will?

Nah. In my office it will cost you at least $250.

[verax-acis]

That you choose to interpret the collected writings of your bible is fine. I have to say that it doesn't really interest me all that much. You make as many unsupported assertions as the next believer who has come to different conclusions. From a scholarly standpoint, YHWH's progression from one god among many to this omni-everything one of today makes the one-upmanship among competing groups fairly apparent. The same progression from The Accuser's right-hand-man of God to the agent of evil ruling his own sub-kingdom is even more apparent. I find I can't buy any of it.

One last question though: Does your god, as you interpret him, ever influence the daily actions of man? I can't believe your answer would be anything but 'yes'. If so, think about what you are saying. This outside-of-time god is sometimes inside of time. His influencing actions speak against what you've previously written.

From your response I feel like I lost you in some way. I feel the walls of defense just dropped on me like a fine art security system. I’m probably no different than any other religious person babbling about some GOD that they have never seen and never heard, talking about them as if they knew something.

Maybe…..But remember (not patronizing)….the term GOD is not entirely invented. It is the term we ascribe at the very least to the source of life’s creation. Unless you believe man brought man into being you must ascribe mans creation to something outside of man.

As far as you’re comment on the evolution of GOD…..I do agree with you that our concept of GOD has evolved. But this evolution is really no different than our evolution of any other scientific concepts such as mathematics or space theory. Yes in the past their views differed but it does not mean the subject itself has changed….it just means our understanding of the subject changed. GOD as the creator, has undergone understanding changes but that does not mean GOD has changed…..it just means our understanding has changed. I think people in the future will understand GOD better than we do now. But it is important to illustrate that this understanding is not what counts.

Knowing GOD….having religion…..ascribing to certain beliefs……means nothing unless you want to do something about them. If you really don’t care than religion is worthless. There is no need to bother. As it is written, If your religion does not change you into a objectively better person and does not cause you to remember to feed and cloth the poor than your religion is worthless. Therefore religion is only worth anything if it causes a person to act.

That’s why I really don’t care about whether or not “FREE WILL” exists or not. I all practicality it does not matter. In the end all that matters is what something causes you to do and what becomes of what is. I only wrote the original OP because it bothered me that some people liked to say GOD created us robots and then punishes the robots. I think this idea is double minded and nonsensical. Either we have free will and can achieve award and punishment or we don’t have free will and can achieve neither. For the grown up mind it can only be one or the other.

This is all I will write on this topic. Thanks for the response.

[chick]

:jail: Free Will! Free Will! Free Mumia! No, wait...

[Awareness]

EVEN LIFE DOES NOT CREATE, BUT BRINGS FORTH, VERY, VERY, GRADUALLY.

THE ONLY CREATOR, IS MAN. A PUNY QUALITY; CREATING.
REARANGING MOLECULES.

SOME SEE THIS, A SUPERIOUR BEING, ALONE AND ALSO REARANGING MOLECULES..........................................................................

BELIEVE IN LIFE, BELIEVE IN YOUR BROTHER, AND CHERISH THE GREAT MISTERY TOGETHER.

[Crumb]

Let him who comes with the hearing option…
I don't think that was availible in my model year.