A little story

[Petra]

An elder Cherokee Native American was teaching his grandchildren about life. He said to them, "A fight is going on inside me...It is a terrible fight, and it is between two wolves. One wolf represents fear, anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, pride and superiority. The other wolf stands for joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. This same fight is going on inside of you and every other person too."

They thought about it for a minute and then one child asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?" The old Cherokee simply replied..."The one I feed."

Just read this on the Information Clearing House's mailer and I like it.

That may sound contradictory to my stance in one of the Politics and Law threads I've been engaged in, but it still represents where my heart is.

Anyway, thought I'd share...

:wave:

[livius drusus]

I like it too. :glomp2:

[maddog]

sharing is good.

Thank you, luna.

#69

[viscousmemories]

I like it too, luna. :)

[Goliath]

[color=darkred]An elder Cherokee Native American was teaching his grandchildren about life. He said to them, "A fight is going on inside me...It is a terrible fight, and it is between two wolves. One wolf represents fear, anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, pride and superiority. The other wolf stands for joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. This same fight is going on inside of you and every other person too."



IMO, it was a good story until it got to that horrible word..."faith". It's unfortunate that faith got lumped in with all those other (mainly) good properties, otherwise the story would've been excellent.

[Petra]

IMO, it was a good story until it got to that horrible word..."faith". It's unfortunate that faith got lumped in with all those other (mainly) good properties, otherwise the story would've been excellent.

Faith is not necessarily a religious connotation. It isn't necessarily about God.

One can have faith in oneself, for example - or faith in an idea or principle or something.

[beyelzu]

IMO, it was a good story until it got to that horrible word..."faith". It's unfortunate that faith got lumped in with all those other (mainly) good properties, otherwise the story would've been excellent.

Faith is not necessarily a religious connotation. It isn't necessarily about God.

One can have faith in oneself, for example - or faith in an idea or principle or something.
or faith in their friends and loved ones.

[Ronin]

IMO, it was a good story until it got to that horrible word..."faith". It's unfortunate that faith got lumped in with all those other (mainly) good properties, otherwise the story would've been excellent.

Goliath, this is the definition that applies -

Faith: 1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions.

~~

Wonderful wisdom, lunachick.

More...

"Humanity's greatest gift, the gift of attention, lies unopened, lost in the glitter of the superficial diversions with which we have become obsessed."

and

"We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same."

[Goliath]

Faith is not necessarily a religious connotation. It isn't necessarily about God.


But it's belief without evidence. IMO that's bad whether the concept of a god is involved or not.

(And, of course, that aside the word "faith" has been used by the religious for so long that they have monopolized it...I would still hate that word regardless).

[maddog]

I have problems (with songs more often than stories) with words authors have chosen to use sometimes, but in those cases I like to figure out what word change I could make that would make the story/song work for me. In a story, the retention of a word may be less necessary. If I didn't like a certain word in a story, I might just mentally cross it out. The point of the story would still remain. For songs, it's harder, because you can't just cut a word out, you usually have to substitute something to make the rhyme or meter work. That can be a fun game, sometimes, changing words so the story or song is more meaningful.

I remember an elderly friend was all upset when a Black choir sang a version of "Five-foot two," substituting "Five-foot two, eyes so true, oh what those two eyes can do, Has anybody seen my gal?" My friend was saying, well the author wrote "eyes of blue" presumably for a reason. Where do they get off changing the words of the song? To me, it was a clever way of including way more people into the fun of the song, because so few people of color have blue eyes. I thought it was cool. There was nothing oracular, talismanic, or sacred about "eyes of blue" to the meaning or intent of the song. So, *shrug* if it bothered me, I might just ignore that word, or reproduce the story without it. The principle is still the same -- the principles you feed are the ones that will win out.
#72

[Petra]

I have problems (with songs more often than stories) with words authors have chosen to use sometimes, but in those cases I like to figure out what word change I could make that would make the story/song work for me. In a story, the retention of a word may be less necessary. If I didn't like a certain word in a story, I might just mentally cross it out. The point of the story would still remain. For songs, it's harder, because you can't just cut a word out, you usually have to substitute something to make the rhyme or meter work. That can be a fun game, sometimes, changing words so the story or song is more meaningful.

I remember an elderly friend was all upset when a Black choir sang a version of "Five-foot two," substituting "Five-foot two, eyes so true, oh what those two eyes can do, Has anybody seen my gal?" My friend was saying, well the author wrote "eyes of blue" presumably for a reason. Where do they get off changing the words of the song? To me, it was a clever way of including way more people into the fun of the song, because so few people of color have blue eyes. I thought it was cool. There was nothing oracular, talismanic, or sacred about "eyes of blue" to the meaning or intent of the song. So, *shrug* if it bothered me, I might just ignore that word, or reproduce the story without it. The principle is still the same -- the principles you feed are the ones that will win out.
#72


Nice. :yup:

[Dingfod]

This thing is all over the place, 635 hits on Google. I swear up and down this is from a movie I've seen, maybe Little Big Man. I seem to recall Dustin Hoffman's character Little Big Man/Jack Crabbe asked his adoptive grandfather how people such as Custer can do such evil. I can sure imagine old Chief Dan George saying this. Hell, I don't remember. Maybe? Maybe not.

[beyelzu]

a version kind of like the op was in daredevil comic written by either kevin mack or bendis. the subjet was native americans though, so I wonder if its a real myth.

[D. Scarlatti]

A man was talking to some Indian braves, and wondered how they got their names. He asked Hunting Bear, "How did you get your name?" "When I was born," Hunting Bear said, "My father went outside to get some water and the first thing he saw was a bear trapping fish in the river."

"And what about you," asked the man of Sunset Red Eagle. "When I was born, my father went outside to get some water and the first thing he saw was a magnificent eagle flying against the red sunset."

"And what about you, how did you get your name, Two Dogs Fucking?"

[AspenMama]

Faith is not necessarily a religious connotation. It isn't necessarily about God.

This sounds a bit to me like the argument for keeping "In God We Trust" on our currency because god can mean anything to anybody. I have to say that I agree somewhat with Goliath on this issue that the word faith has been so adopted by religion that it's secular meaning is often lost. However, I also see the value of simply skipping over that bit and enjoying the words and intended message.

[Petra]

Oh, man. I must've been about 10 when I first heard that joke. *groan*


[off topic]Speaking of names, right up until I was born, my name was going to be Belinda instead of Petra. Mum changed her mind, thankfully, at my birth as she realised on my entry into the world that I'm no more a Belinda than I'm a Two-Dogs Fucking!! [/off topic]

[Goliath]

Faith is not necessarily a religious connotation. It isn't necessarily about God.

This sounds a bit to me like the argument for keeping "In God We Trust" on our currency because god can mean anything to anybody. I have to say that I agree somewhat with Goliath on this issue that the word faith has been so adopted by religion that it's secular meaning is often lost. However, I also see the value of simply skipping over that bit and enjoying the words and intended message.

Thanks, AspenMama.

I'm not at all convinced that faith is a good thing. Although I do understand the point of the story in the OP, I hesitate to just let this one slide and accept the use of the word "faith" as a good thing when it is not. The xians have won too many victories...I don't want to give them another one.

[Petra]

Faith is not necessarily a religious connotation. It isn't necessarily about God.

This sounds a bit to me like the argument for keeping "In God We Trust" on our currency because god can mean anything to anybody. I have to say that I agree somewhat with Goliath on this issue that the word faith has been so adopted by religion that it's secular meaning is often lost. However, I also see the value of simply skipping over that bit and enjoying the words and intended message.

That was me who said that. :)

Perhaps I don't see it as I don't live in a country that has great theistic arguments. We are soundly secular, and when people here say they have "faith" in something, they are usually speaking about a general belief that what they have faith in will occur or the person they have faith in will be faithful. But then, I've never ever been asked what church I attend or if I'm a Christian, or given any god-bothering nonsense at all aside from when the JW's or Mormons call, so I guess I'm not hung up on the word meaning faithful to "god".

But it strikes me that in America, this is perhaps not the case.


But, yes, the overall message in the story is a good one. Information Clearing House has some great quotes like this on their mailers, I always find them inspiring - even if I am an angry little 'freedom fighter' at heart. :wink:

[AspenMama]

That was me who said that. :)

oops. Sorry!

I like those little sayings I find on teabags every once in a while.

[Petra]

I'm not at all convinced that faith is a good thing. Although I do understand the point of the story in the OP, I hesitate to just let this one slide and accept the use of the word "faith" as a good thing when it is not. The xians have won too many victories...I don't want to give them another one.

Faith may not necessarily be a good thing, but it isn't by default a bad thing, either.

Faith can simply be trust, Goliath. And we all need an element of trust in our lives - most relationships cannot be sustained without it.

You have some faith, too, I've noticed Goliath. You have faith that people are sometimes attacking you, when they aren't. You must also have faith in your counsellor and yourself to heal what it is that ails you. This requires no god-belief of prayer - just the kind of faith that is needed to give you inner strength to go on, secular and true.

Some examples: My mother is currently in Germany lying in hospital after a major operation on her spine. She was told here that there they couldn't find anything wrong with her. She had no faith in the doctor's faulty diagnosis, and flew to Germany where she had faith they could fix her - her faith (and lack of it) was worth it - the doctors in Germany found what was wrong and performed a lengthy operation to mend it.

I have never met, say, Ronin or livius. We have had our spats and whatnot, but I have always had faith in them as friends - even in the middle of an argument - yet I have not met them, so without getting a "feel" for them and their facial expressions and body language, I can really only go on my belief that they are friends. I must trust that fact, whatever we argue about, and will have faith in them as friends until such time as they really kick me or something, but I have faith that they won't.

Faith, as in loyalty and trust, is a very, very good thing. It's a healing thing. It's a friendship thing. It can even be better than chocolate or cake! :yup:


(And almost as good as a micro-brewed beer :D )

[Goliath]

I like those little sayings I find on teabags every once in a while.

I oftentimes find sayings on my teabags. :D

The one thing to remember, though, is not to treat the saying as though it's in a fortune cookie! :eek:

[Petra]

Hmm. I obviously get the wrong brand of tea.

Must switch to the adage bags, methinks. :)

[Goliath]

Faith can simply be trust, Goliath.


No, faith is not trust. Why are you helping the xians by spreading the false idea that faith and trust are synonymous?



You have some faith, too, I've noticed Goliath.



Under normal circumstances, I would consider the assertion that I have faith to be an unforgivable insult. However, I'll assume for the time being that you did not intend to be so grievously insulting.



You have faith that people are sometimes attacking you, when they aren't.



Wrong. I have evidence (even though the evidence is sometimes false, it is evidence) of said attacks, whence no faith is required.



You must also have faith in your counsellor and yourself to heal what it is that ails you.



No, what happened Monday was evidence that I am on the mend mentally. Again: no faith needed.



Some examples: My mother is currently in Germany lying in hospital after a major operation on her spine. She was told here that there they couldn't find anything wrong with her. She had no faith in the doctor's faulty diagnosis, and flew to Germany where she had faith they could fix her - her faith (and lack of it) was worth it - the doctors in Germany found what was wrong and performed a lengthy operation to mend it.



Did she still feel pain or did she feel as though something was wrong? Then she had evidence, whence no faith was required.



I have never met, say, Ronin or livius. We have had our spats and whatnot, but I have always had faith in them as friends - even in the middle of an argument - yet I have not met them, so without getting a "feel" for them and their facial expressions and body language, I can really only go on my belief that they are friends.



This is belief with evidence, whence it is not faith.

[viscousmemories]

Faith can simply be trust, Goliath.


No, faith is not trust. Why are you helping the xians by spreading the false idea that faith and trust are synonymous?

You are wrong, Goliath. Faith is a synonym for trust.

faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

-source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

[Goliath]

You are wrong, Goliath. Faith is a synonym for trust.
<snip dictionary crap>


Well, whoopty-shit. :rolleye1: Some dictionaries also define atheism as "wickedness". When it comes to terms involved with religion or atheism, I put absolutely no stock in dictionaries whatsoever.

The theists have more or less monopolized the word "faith". Why should I (or you, or any atheist) just lay back and let them use it as a synonym for "trust" so that they can more easily convert the unsuspecting ("Just trust in God....don't worry about faith.")?

Why are you helping them, vm?

[Goliath]

Hmm. I obviously get the wrong brand of tea.

Must switch to the adage bags, methinks. :)

/me giggles...

That's not quite what I meant, hon. :wink: :D

[Petra]

I'm not continuing this any further.

I put up a story that I thought carried a positive message and it is being sodomised by an argument over one fucking word.


I'll know better next time.

[livius drusus]

I enjoy religious concepts like faith, grace, charisma, even ecstasy on many levels, from sheer linguistic prettiness to profound metaphor. The OP is a fine example of that.

Thanks for posting it, luna. It's definitely a keeper.

[viscousmemories]

You are wrong, Goliath. Faith is a synonym for trust.
<snip dictionary crap>


Well, whoopty-shit. :rolleye1: Some dictionaries also define atheism as "wickedness". When it comes to terms involved with religion or atheism, I put absolutely no stock in dictionaries whatsoever.
If you put "absolutely no stock in dictionaries whatsoever", what empirical evidence do you have for your claim that "faith and trust are synonymous" is a "false idea"?

[Goliath]

I'm not continuing this any further.

I put up a story that I thought carried a positive message and it is being sodomised by an argument over one fucking word.


I'll know better next time.

:deepsigh: Did I not say that I did see the point of the story, and that I liked the general point that you were trying to convey?

[Petra]

Hmm. I obviously get the wrong brand of tea.

Must switch to the adage bags, methinks. :)

* Goliath giggles...

That's not quite what I meant, hon. :wink: :D


Have you been reading tea leaves, Goliath

:giggle:

[Goliath]

If you put "absolutely no stock in dictionaries whatsoever", what empirical evidence do you have for your claim that "faith and trust are synonymous" is a "false idea"?

The answer is so unbelievably simple, I'm surprised you don't already know it (unless, of course, you're asking the question rhetorically? Well, in case you aren't...) :

My evidence that faith means "belief without evidence" is that theists seem to predominantly use the word to mean "belief without evidence".

[Goliath]

Have you been reading tea leaves, Goliath

:giggle:

I dare not open the teabags to find out what the leaves say! :eek:

:D

[Petra]

:deepsigh: Did I not say that I did see the point of the story, and that I liked the general point that you were trying to convey?

It's okay.

I just feel disappointed that it became a dissection of one word.

I'd forgotten that you said you saw the point of the story and that you liked it's point. I'm pleased you did, Goliath. I know I got something positive from the wee tale, and it caused me some reflection when I read it. That is why I shared. :)

[Petra]

I enjoy religious concepts like faith, grace, charisma, even ecstasy on many levels, from sheer linguistic prettiness to profound metaphor. The OP is a fine example of that.

Thanks for posting it, luna. It's definitely a keeper.

Cheers. :)


(Damn it's good to live in an non-religious society - I don't have all these "religious" semantics issues! Phew!)

[wei yau]

Well, I also enjoyed the story and took the lesson to heart.

For example, I stayed out of this scuffle over a single word. It's not that I don't have opinions on the matter, it's just that I know which wolf I'd rather feed in this thread.

Thanks, lunachick for the little bit of enlightenment in my day.

[Goliath]

:deepsigh: Did I not say that I did see the point of the story, and that I liked the general point that you were trying to convey?

It's okay.

I just feel disappointed that it became a dissection of one word.

I'd forgotten that you said you saw the point of the story and that you liked it's point. I'm pleased you did, Goliath. I know I got something positive from the wee tale, and it caused me some reflection when I read it. That is why I shared. :)

I apologize for derailing the thread.

:sadcheer:

[Petra]

My pleasure, Eldar.

No sweat, Goliath.

:)

[viscousmemories]

My evidence that faith means "belief without evidence" is that theists seem to predominantly use the word to mean "belief without evidence".
I asked for empirical evidence, not anecdotal. Besides, to use your example, even if most Christians used the word 'atheist' to mean 'wicked', I would still take it to mean "absence of belief in a God or Gods".

Anyway I'm sorry for the derail, lunachick. :)

[Goliath]

I asked for empirical evidence, not anecdotal.


The evidence is that which I have observed, whence it is empirical.

Anyways, I'm done discussing this with you.

[Petra]

I dare not open the teabags to find out what the leaves say! :eek:

:D
I bet they say, "Earl Grey is goooood!" :D

[viscousmemories]

I asked for empirical evidence, not anecdotal.

The evidence is that which I have observed, whence it is empirical.
Good point. But still anecdotal, and not what I would expect you to accept as valid empirical evidence from a Christian. I understand your not wanting to derail lunachick's thread anymore - I don't want to either - but since you did make a big deal out of the inclusion of the word 'faith' in this story I do think you should retract your claim that Ronin and lunachick were wrong to say it is synonymous with trust, or provide some solid evidence to support it.

Anyways, I'm done discussing this with you.
That's your prerogative, of course. And I respect your desire to not derail lunachick's thread anymore. Perhaps not doing so makes you a better man than I am. But you didn't seem to have any problem with derailing it to start this argument, so I'm not sure why you won't finish it. I am not attacking you or trying to make you look stupid, but you have made a positive assertion - that 'faith' is not synonymous with 'trust' - for which you have nothing but anecdotal evidence. You pride yourself on calling Christians on using such careless reasoning, should I not call you on it?

[Petra]

....so I'm not sure why you won't finish it. I am not attacking you or trying to make you look stupid, but you have made a positive assertion - that 'faith' is not synonymous with 'trust' - for which you have nothing but anecdotal evidence. You pride yourself on calling Christians on using such careless reasoning, should I not call you on it?

I'm going to be very brief because I'm cooking up some eggs for me and my lovely for brekkie. :)

I asked Goliath not to "finish it" because it will never be "finished" given the faithful (hehe) tenacity on either side to be right.

Goliath did ask me if he should perhaps start a new thread to address it, and I advised him not to.

Of course, either he or you may start a new thread about it - but please do not use this thread for it anymore. If it really must be nutted out then I retract my advice to Goliath and say to both of you - have at it - just not in here.

Cheers.

[Goliath]

Oops, crossposted with you, luna...sorry.

[viscousmemories]

All I know is my peace-loving, happy wolf is looking rather emaciated. :deepsigh:

[Petra]

All I know is my peace-loving, happy wolf is looking rather emaciated. :deepsigh:

LOL.

Here, offer it some nourishment... :gnoshing:



And a :glomp2: for you!

And a :glomp2: for Goliath!


:D

[viscousmemories]

Thanks, luv. But I'm not really into anal.

[viscousmemories]

Ah okay, I lied. It's all about perspective though.

:glomp2:

:D

[Petra]

You have nothing to fear. I'm not wearing my strap-on.

[Ronin]

You know, Christians have also co-opted each of the positive words used in this simple story..."joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith".

Each have all been used to describe their own brand of meaning as if to imply that no one else truly understands them without "Jesus".

That said, I see absolutely no reason to:

a) Percieve that one worldview (in this case, Christianity) has "monopolized" a common word.

b) Percieve that someone who doesn't hold that worldview is using the word in a religious manner and not a common (or) secular manner.

Moreover, it is my opinion, that any overt sensitivity to such word usage is more the culprit that grants perceived significance to the religious perception than the actual word usage itself.

[Goliath]

You know, Christians have also co-opted each of the positive words used in this simple story..."joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith".

Each have all been used to describe their own brand of meaning as if to imply that no one else truly understands them without "Jesus".

That said, I see absolutely no reason to:

a) Percieve that one worldview (in this case, Christianity) has "monopolized" a common word.

b) Percieve that someone who doesn't hold that worldview is using the word in a religious manner and not a common (or) secular manner.

Moreover, it is my opinion, that any overt sensitivity to such word usage is more the culprit that grants perceived significance to the religious perception than the actual word usage itself.

Way to continue derailing the thread.... :woopdedo:

[Ronin]

Way to continue derailing the thread.... :woopdedo:

Sorry about that, Goliath.

I just found the topic of word usage (relating to the associated power/weakness we allow words to have depending upon the group using them) to be very interesting.

I'll start another thread when I get the chance.