Manic Depression/Depression

[Sweetie]

I'm not really familiar with manic depression. I know a couple people who are bipolar but, what makes the difference between manic depression and depression, and then depression and the experience of just sadness?

From what I can tell, manic depression is like full of highs and lows, and the highs are quite high, euphoric, and the lows are quite low, suicidal tendencies.

I'm curious. Any thoughts?

[LadyShea]

In bipolar, there is a marked manic phase then a marked depressed phase. The manic phase can feel euphoric, but also has a frantic quality to it, like being on speed. IIRC people die more often in the manic phase due to extreme recklessness. Some even suffer delusions and hallucinations during the manic phase.

depression and the experience of just sadness?

Sadness is usually linked to an event or situation, meaning people are sad about something, while many depressions have no known trigger or cause, just feelings of hoplessness and despair without a specific reason.

[Sweetie]

I find it weird that people online sometimes interpret me as "frantic," but maybe that's just an intent to get in any form of insult.

I never get frantic about anything. :shrug: Well, maybe the only thing is when my neck is acting up and my muscles are spasming and I need to get somewhere to relax them NOW, or I get anxiety.....because my muscles are cramping and spasming in important places, like....the place where I hold my head up.

My anger is sharp and biting, and even low-key. My hurting is quiet and contemplative, my sadness is sleepy and aching. There's nothing manic about it. :shrug:

But really, I know a woman who has been diagnosed as bipolar, and I find her very difficult to be around. Everything about her is nervous, loud. One time, before she was diagnosed mind you, I had spent three days with her, in the winter.

We had got back from shopping, all of our kids were in bed, the men weren't around, I sat her down, put on some music, told her to just sit and listen. One song, a slow and powerful song, just like, sit and listen! Relax, it's only a few minutes, I need the few minutes!

But she didn't find it relaxing at all, hard for her to sit still even that long. But I had to get away from her, I had to go for a walk just to get away from her for awhile, in the fricken winter.

But, it's hard to understand why she can't just....relax, find some peace of some sort. It's exhausting to be around, I imagine it's exhausting to experience, and it's only when they collapse that maybe they realize how much energy they have been spending on just the regular activity of living, and there's no energy left.

Just some experiences, observations. It's a very interesting thing, I'm very curious about it.

[godfry n. glad]

Good descriptions from LadyShea. In bipolar, the symptoms can become debilitating in either the depressive mode or the manic mode. Typical depression is usually manifested by retreat from life, flat affect, inacivity, pessimism and self-accusation. The manic mode is generally frenetic activity, overinvovlement, paranoia and grandiose delusions.

Believe me, either mode can lead to debilitation....the inability to function and take care of oneself.

[Sweetie]

:shrug:

I've just been asking around.

My one friend says he's depressed, he can tell by how much he wants to sleep. I asked him, do you think of suicide when you are like this? He says he thinks about it occasionally, just would never do it.

I asked another guy, and this was a shock to me, have known him for a long time, if he has ever been suicidal. He says, "you don't know how many times when I was a teen, I sat in the bathtub with a razor thinking of just ending it all." He broke up with a girl once, was so angry he cracked his car windshield with his fist, and his dad removed an ornamental gun from the house, even though I'm not sure they had any bullets.

But this guy, he says now it's different, especially that he has a wife and kids to live for. But it scares me, you know? Like, what if.....what if his wife left him? He finds his own worth through her.

Is that depression always standing by, at the ready? What do you do with someone who thinks like that? And why, oh why, do so many men think like this?

I've never experienced this. I've never been suicidal, not even for a moment. I've got a really strong sense of self-worth. Why do I, and not others? Because I really believe it? What marks the difference?

Bah, sorry, just been thinking in depth on the subject, and bothered by some things.

[Sweetie]

My one friend said to me not too long ago, something like, "You see the darkness (or in the darkness) very well, and can handle it." I consider it a compliment, but.....some things are so very dark. :(

[Dingfod]

I've never experienced this. I've never been suicidal, not even for a moment. I've got a really strong sense of self-worth. Why do I, and not others? Because I really believe it? What marks the difference?Until I experienced a bout of depression where thoughts of killing myself would just pop into my head out of the blue at age 42, I couldn't understand how anyone could ever think of killing themselves because such a thought had never crossed my mind. Even though I was in a state of depression at the time, I can't honestly tell you where those thoughts came from, I had experienced depression before that without that. It wasn't like I actually thought that anyone would be better off with me dead or anything like that at all, it was totally impulsive. If I had followed those impulses through, it would've completely surprised anyone that knew me at the time.

[Sweetie]

Hm, well I have another question. Do you think it's possible that these things are just a case of varying degrees? Like, could you be a little depressed and that's fine, you don't get over it and it comes back occasionally, but then it starts sliding and it becomes like manic depression or is manic depression a completely unrelated different puppy that looks like depression sometimes, but is not?

Like, is it ever thought to be a case of depression gone bad/worse?

Does it ever depend on external pressures at all?

[Dingfod]

I can't say that I've ever been manic, at least not in a mentally ill sort of way. Manic-depression, or bipolar disorder, is a horse of a different color, but still a horse, if you get my drift.

[Sweetie]

I asked a guy that we just happen to know through someone else, not the type of person one seeks to be friends with, but he's allright. Anyhoo, he was in prison for however long, and I asked him, like really, how do you guys survive the stress?

He said, he witnessed a lot of suicides and some of them very gruesome. :shrug:

An inability to cope.

[Miisa]

stion. Do you think it's possible that these things are just a case of varying degrees?
I have wondered about this, too. Perhaps everyone has a bipolar nature to some degree, but most people have the poles so close to each other so as not to notice? I clearly have swings back and forth (between lethargic depression and hyperactivity), as well as "mini-swings" inside the larger ones, but I don't think I would classify myself as clinically bipolar.

[Sweetie]

I would be interested in understanding the characteristics of each. Granted, yes I could read this all out there somewhere, but would rather learn through discussion.

One guy I know, always said such arrogant things, but then very occasionally, would put in a really deep self-deprecating thought.

I said to him once, even though he was so arrogant, that I really think he had a low sense of self-worth, and that I thought his arrogance was an overcompensation for a sense of inferiority, which is why I just didn't walk away from him the million times I wanted to.

But those are two extremes, arrogance vs. inferiority, and assuming that were true, they both relied on each other. But if they both existed at extremes of white heat, that would either be a high or low this or that day, but it could be just an ever present low, with a mask of a high, ie: depression which looked like manic depression.

:dunno:

[RareBear]

I've never experienced this. I've never been suicidal, not even for a moment. I've got a really strong sense of self-worth. Why do I, and not others? Because I really believe it? What marks the difference?Until I experienced a bout of depression where thoughts of killing myself would just pop into my head out of the blue at age 42, I couldn't understand how anyone could ever think of killing themselves because such a thought had never crossed my mind. Even though I was in a state of depression at the time, I can't honestly tell you where those thoughts came from, I had experienced depression before that without that. It wasn't like I actually thought that anyone would be better off with me dead or anything like that at all, it was totally impulsive. If I had followed those impulses through, it would've completely surprised anyone that knew me at the time.

Me too. Exactly.

I was never suicidal and couldn't imagine ever getting to a place where that made sense. But it worked in slowly based upon a bunch of circumstances and then I couldn't see anything but it. I acted it out in early '03 with intentional drug overdose but survived and now take depression totally seriously. I can't explain how I felt or thought because it wasn't me. I'm better now and only want to kill other people. :whup: :D

[Dingfod]

One guy I know, always said such arrogant things, but then very occasionally, would put in a really deep self-deprecating thought.It could be that the arrogant talk is the mask he puts on, or it could be the self-deprecating comments are how he keeps his ego in check.

I said to him once, even though he was so arrogant, that I really think he had a low sense of self-worth, and that I thought his arrogance was an overcompensation for a sense of inferiority, which is why I just didn't walk away from him the million times I wanted to.Perhaps you were right, perhaps not. Who knows? He may not even know.

But those are two extremes, arrogance vs. inferiority, and assuming that were true, they both relied on each other. But if they both existed at extremes of white heat, that would either be a high or low this or that day, but it could be just an ever present low, with a mask of a high, ie: depression which looked like manic depression.I don't think the person you're describing here fits the definition of manic depression. They might be manic-depressive or they might not. What you see as manic behavior may only be how they cope with the depression, or like I said, the self-deprecation is how they keep their ego grounded.

[Sweetie]

All right, I'll tell ya guys something.

I have a friend, I've mentioned him before a time or two, I call him an adrenaline junkie, can be reckless, and definately shows characteristics of hyperactivity. Always thought so, thought he was on ridilyn in High School, thought I heard someone mention that, but not sure, my husband I thought said that, he was his best friend.

But I asked him in the summer I think, are you supposed to be on meds? He was just, he has so much energy, he's thirty, healthy and fit though, but he can play with my kids for hours, him and my son work each other into a sweat. Problem is, that's cool, but I don't gauge it as normal.

But he lightly denied the question, and shrugged it off, and went back to playing.

Now, my other friend is his ex-girlfriend, and I know now through her that he gets intense sometimes with blaming himself for hurting her. He comes accross one way, plays things one way, but......that's all I see is the one way. He however, because me and her talked about it, recently lightly admitted without addressing it, that yes he was hyperactive.

I just wonder if behind closed doors or deep inside, I wonder if there's the opposite lurking. Either he's just hyperactive sometimes, and normal sometimes, or is it more likely that he's high sometimes, and then the opposite sometimes.

I don't know. :shrug:

He seems all right at least, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. His life is rather empty right now, how can you be thirty, make so much money, and have almost nothing to show for it? He believes in God though, but........

[Dingfod]

His life is rather empty right now, ... He believes in God though, but........How can you believe his life is empty then?


...how can you be thirty, make so much money, and have almost nothing to show for it?I don't know, how can you be fifty, make more money than Croesus, and have almost nothing [debt-free] to show for it. It sounds like to me that he's had a good time in his 30 years.

[Miisa]

IME, faith (or lack thereof) doesn't correlate with grades and numbers of depression, though there does seem to be a reverse correleation between faith and the tendency to be open about it.

[Sweetie]

How can you believe his life is empty then?

Aw man, he's always talking about changing his ways to live what he believes......he just never gets around to it. I'm not even saying it's a standard I hold up to, in fact he judges me, tells me how to raise my kids, etc., etc, meanwhile, he has none, and he's very then, hypocritical. He wants something different, it's not happening for him, maybe because he's not making it happen, or maybe because he can't.

He finds the things he does empty. Casual sex, porn, alcohol, etc., that's his opinion, I don't say this to him, he implies this to me.


I don't know, how can you be fifty, make more money than Croesus, and have almost nothing [debt-free] to show for it. It sounds like to me that he's had a good time in his 30 years.

You have a wife and kids. I'm talking about important things. Apparently, even though yes I know you have trouble with your kids sometimes, apparently though, you can have relationships. Money doesn't mean you have something as opposed to nothing, money though, houses and cars bespeak roots.

See, he's not having any successful relationships.

I just thought of the line in that one song, "Because of you, I'm ashamed of my life, because it's empty."

Like.......he has no roots, no house, all his cars he's randomly smashed up or is constantly buying and selling. He still has money to buy better cars, but he likes a certain type of older car which tends to be cheap.

But that's just it. There is nothing solid in his life, not even any good working relationships but the ones that are familial. That's not bad, but as a thirty year old man on his own, he should have something by now. He wants something, it's not happening. He's drifting right now.

[godfry n. glad]

Do you think it's possible that these things are just a case of varying degrees?
I have wondered about this, too. Perhaps everyone has a bipolar nature to some degree, but most people have the poles so close to each other so as not to notice? I clearly have swings back and forth (between lethargic depression and hyperactivity), as well as "mini-swings" inside the larger ones, but I don't think I would classify myself as clinically bipolar.

Okay... I grew up with a parent who was a certifiable depressive; institutionalized for about half of the time I was around, until her death. I also experienced a depressive period during my mid-twenties. I'm suseptible to depression and can experience SAD if poor weather conditions are protracted.

As to "varying degrees", I'd say the answer is yes. People can be slightly depressed, mildly depressed, depressed, very depressed, clinically depressed, dibilitatingly depressed. If feelings of hopelessness and despair last for more than two to three weeks and/or suicidal ideation occurs, help should be sought. I don't know how many times I watched my mother slowly, but ever so surely, slide into a deeper and deeper depression. In her day, there was no pharmacopiea for the condition and it ended up in institutionalization and electro-convulsive therapy. Later in her life, early anti-depressants were temporarily effective...until changes in her personal biochemistry set off some kind of spiral into depressive episodes. Lithium was helpful for keeping her from sliding into clinical depression, but, from her comments and my later personal experience with it, it merely levels moods and denies the ability to enjoy those occasional causes for celebration as well as place a floor under the depression....it's rather like pharmacologically tredding water.

My mother didn't have any manic episodes until later in her life, when I'd become an adult. When they started occuring, they were initially viewed as her being unusually chipper. Extraoridinarily optimistic. Over a span of a couple of weeks, she would become hyperactive. She'd bake cookies far into the night and get by on only four hours of sleep. She would say that she felt like she could do anything. Then it would spiral into repetitive behaviors...one time, when my brother and I came over to visit her, we found her dialing the phone; over, and over, and over, and over, never lifting her finger from the fingerhole in the dial. When we finally convinced her to stop, she had a black ring around the tip of her index finger where she'd worn the paint off of the dial. Another time, she was absolutely sure that I was Jesus Christ. Both of these incidents led to institutionalization.

So, yes, there are varying degrees. I'd say I even had transient epidsodes of mild manic behavior. I could guarantee that I've experienced multiple episodes of clinical depression in the past. Of course, I'm still on Prozac as we speak, but it's situational depression related to the death of my wife. I expect to start dialing back on that soon.

(I also wouldn't say that hyperactivity and manic behavior are necessarily the same. Hyperactivity is a symptom of manic behavior, but one can be hyperactive for other, non-psychiatric, reasons, as well.)

[yguy]

I've never experienced this. I've never been suicidal, not even for a moment. I've got a really strong sense of self-worth. Why do I, and not others? Because I really believe it? What marks the difference?

Knowing you hardly at all, two possibilities spring to mind:

1. You are simply blessed not to have spiritually compromised yourself to a degree that would make you vulnerable to such thoughts.

2. Unbeknownst to yourself, you have a dominating personality which tends to produce resentment in others, and helps them become or remain depressed.

[Sweetie]

2. Unbeknownst to yourself, you have a dominating personality which tends to produce resentment in others, and helps them become or remain depressed.

I have a strong personality, but I wouldn't classify it as dominating.

The one I mentioned, I'm there when he comes around again. It's enjoyable to have me around.

The other one, we see each other frequently and I'm a positive influence in his life, but I don't like dependency.

The other one, infrequent interaction. How he is has nothing to do with me. Same with another one in the mix, fairly regular interaction, but it's not my fault how he is.

[yguy]

I have a strong personality, but I wouldn't classify it as dominating.

You may have no deisre to dominate others; but insecure people can't speak up to strong people, so that in a sense they make them into tyrants.

The other one, we see each other frequently and I'm a positive influence in his life, but I don't like dependency.

It's not clear from this whether there is any dependency; but if there is any at all, I would question whether you are in fact a positive influence in his life.

[Sweetie]

You may have no deisre to dominate others; but insecure people can't speak up to strong people, so that in a sense they make them into tyrants.

Yes, but I'm not a tyrant. In fact I'm very understanding, and seeing as I have no wish to dominate or overcome anybody in any personal interaction, then I can assure you that that is not the case. I found I have nothing worthwhile to win that way and there's no point in being alone in a crowd.

I recognize insecurities fairly quickly, I have no wish to take advantage of them. In fact, it's closer to the truth to say that I make myself lower so that they can be higher, and I teach people how to fight with me, and that I want them to challenge me if they feel the need. I recognize that strength can be a problem sometimes so I also recognize it's stronger then, to be lesser sometimes, still strength, just by another name.

Now, in a debate......that's a whole different ball game. :D

It's not clear from this whether there is any dependency; but if there is any at all, I would question whether you are in fact a positive influence in his life.

:sigh:

[Kilik]

There are many excuses and ruses used to introduce technology to humans and to alter the natural human body. The human emotion is only one way of using a weakness in humans to control them into being reliant on unnatural introduced technology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-vOUWb893Y

casting prozac upon the waters-
http://www.researchmagazine.uga.edu/summer2005/prozac01.htm

and animals and fish mutating due to it, linked to cancer in humans
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/mostread/s_354359.html

Effects of the interference with the natural world, in humans
http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/Commentary/News/newspapers.htm

http://www.geosociety.org/news/pr/01-47.htm

Genetic engineering
http://www.hgalert.org/topics/hge/faq.htm
http://www.netlink.de/gen/fagan.html
http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/scientists.html

[yguy]

I make myself lower so that they can be higher

But making yourself lower doesn't make them higher, although it may make them feel higher.

Now, in a debate......that's a whole different ball game. :D

Why, whatever do you mean? :)

[Shelli]

Bipolar disorder / Manic-depressive illness (http://www.bipolar.com/)

[Sweetie]

But making yourself lower doesn't make them higher, although it may make them feel higher.

Well, however it goes, it's hard to explain. At the very least, I like to level the playing field whenever I can, whenever it feels like it's off a little bit.

I suppose it's closer to what I mean to say that I have no wish to tear anybody down in personal relationships, I only want to build them up. If I had the need to tear them down, that would be a weakness instead of a strength, that would mean that I felt the need to be better than them, and needed to prove it.

I don't try to be lesser when others feel less, but I don't try and reach my full potential necessarily either, in my interactions with them, just level.

However, if someone is trying to tear me down first, then they might run into some difficulties in that area. A constant need to get in my face and keep trying to tearing me down might cause some major difficulties.

[yguy]

I suppose it's closer to what I mean to say that I have no wish to tear anybody down in personal relationships, I only want to build them up.

Yes, well personally, I see little to choose between those two alternatives.

[Sweetie]

Yes, well personally, I see little to choose between those two alternatives.

There is just being whatever you want to be and are and then letting the chips fall where they may.

For me it's like, if someone doesn't tell me what's going on with them so that I can gauge how to behave according to their ups and downs, then I can't be blamed for the consequences and in that case, if I can't determine their wants and needs, then I can only see my own and must act according to that. But I ask first.

Sometimes you simply can't tell what another needs. :shrug:

There's what people say they want, there's what they want, there's what they really want, there's what they need on a superficial level and there's what they need on a deeper level, and even they may not know these things.

So, I mean, when trying to work with people, some of these variables have to be known in order to know whether you are causing harm, or helping them.