On being a father: Of Mice and Men

[wei yau]

(I wrote this a while ago, as part of a sporadic series of essays on fatherhood)

Alright, I'll admit it. Stealing the title from the John Steinbeck classic is a bit pretentious, but bear with me...it's appropriate. Well, it's appropriate with a little editorial stretching.

"Of Mice and Men (or Of Mousiness and Manliness)"

Now, don't get all worried that I'm about to compare my daughter, Rebecca, to Lenny. Just because Lenny is childlike doesn't mean that Rebecca is mentally handicapped. Really, it doesn't.

If anything, I feel like Lenny when I'm around Rebecca. By comparison, I'm this huge lumbering oaf, given to fits of giggling whenever Rebecca (my rabbit) does something particularly cute. To further extend the analogy, my wife's look of gentle exasperation at my doofiness would make her George.

At any rate, the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not writing this piece to say that my daughter is retarded (all due apologies to any mental health advocacy groups).

What I am saying is that Rebecca is rather mousy. She's a good girl (loves her Mama). She can be very polite and is rarely aggressive. I wouldn't necessarily change any of that, except for one thing.

Being nearly two months premature, Becca is on the small side. She's only within the third percentile when it comes to weight. That means 97 out of 100 kids her age are heavier than her. She's not terribly tall, either.

At her daycare, she's just about the smallest kid. And she tends to get knocked around a bit. Bear in mind, that when I say "knocked around", I mean just that. Kids run around and tend to bump into her and down goes Becca. Please don't get the idea that my wife and I are dropping Becca off at the "Li'l Lord of The Flies Daycare Centre". She's not in any jeopardy. And most of the kids don't know how to fashion rudimentary spears from either sticks or Legos (surprisingly, Fisher Price has not tried to corner the market on primitive weapons for toddlers).

But, she does tend to get knocked down quite a bit. Sometimes I suspect it's deliberate. At this age, kids are just coming into their own. They need to establish dominance and test their boundaries. Now, they probably don't go around peeing on each other to mark their territory, but I've never actually spent the day at the daycare centre. So, they may be knocking Becca down for these reasons or they are running an experiment in kinetics.

I've seen Becca get knocked down. She tends to cry when that happens. That's understandable, I guess. I mean, here she is just minding her own business and then BAM! she's on her ass. That could be upsetting.

But, what upsets me is that she doesn't fight back. Not even one bit. Hell, she doesn't even give the offending child the "cold shoulder". Instead, she goes up to the kid, looks directly into his/her face and smiles. A big broad, peacemaking smile. A smile that says "I'm harmless. I'm nice. I'm non-threatening"

In other words..."I'm a wuss." See? Mousy. I mean she might as well roll over on her back and expose her vulnerable underbelly.

Alright, time for some more truth. I was mousy as a kid, too. A real wimp. I loathe that part of me. I hate that I never stood up for myself against bullies. I hate that I never fought back. These feelings are still with me. There are times when I want to go to a school playground and call out the bullies for a fight. Yes, I know that they are only kids. I don't care. That only improves my chances of winning. I get both the weight and the reach advantage. Man, I'd wade into them like a whirling dervish of pent-up childhood rage. The air would be filled with their pathetic crying as I slam into them. There wouldn't be enough Kleenex in the world to mop up the snot running from their noses. The rubber-matted ground would be littered with wimpering curled-up little punks. And there I would stand, surrounded by my fallen foes, with tightly-clenched fists raised in the air. I'd turn my face to the heavens and bellow a powerful and resounding victory cry.

Man, that'd be sweet.

But, I probably can't do any of that...well, I could (Damn straight, I could), but I probably shouldn't. I'll have to ask my counselor.

When I see Becca trying to placate any kid that has just knocked her down, all these feelings come back to me. I want her to fight back. I want her to stand her ground. When one of these kids approaches, I want her to drop the floor and extend her leg. A quick leg sweep would drop the kid on his back. Then I want her to pounce on the prone kid and deliver a vicious kick to his throat.

My wife doesn't agree with this idea. Apparently, she has objections to teaching our daughter to kick kids in the throat. Here's some advice for all of you; before you have kids, you need to discuss with your partner certain fundamentals about raising children. What will be their religious education? When is spanking appropriate? Should we tell them that they were an accident?

And...how do you feel about throat kicking?

You'd be amazed at the esoteric moral quandries that arise when raising children. Life is a journey, I tell ya.

Not only does my wife have a problem with throat kicks, but she objected my suggested alternative of a couple of rabbit punches to the kidneys (rabbit punch, didja see what I did here...another literary allusion, my rants are both cathartic and educational). Given her reactions, I decided to drop the issue and not mention any other methods of inflicting pain on your opponent.

But, this does nothing to solve my problem. I fear that Rebecca will become shy and withdrawn because kids can be so cruel. I fear that she will be ostracized because she's perceived as anti-social. I fear that her beauty and sheer wonderfulness will never be known because she's afraid of others. I fear that she will become a simpering little suck-up as her only means of defense. I fear that while she may be a late bloomer, she'll have to suffer through many years of degradation and humiliation.

In short, I fear that she will be just like her dad.

[livius drusus]

I'm not a parent. I don't even know any kids, really, but I am a daddy's girl and I can honestly say that I have never known a woman who was treated with love and respect by her father who lacked in self-assurance. Seriously. I'm not being all Little House on the Prairie here or saying everything will turn out alright as long as you love each other. Shit will, of course, happen, but I think as long as she knows you think she's beautiful and sheerly wonderful, as long as she feels safe and appreciated at home, her long term prospects of developing a strong self-image are excellent.

Now, having said that, stop projecting. From your description, Rebecca could just as well be a diplomat in the making, or even better, someone with the rare and lovely ability to actually not sweat the small stuff. The simpering appeaser thing totally looks like your baggage to me. For one thing, approaching someone with a smile even after they've fucked with you is hardly anti-social. It's kind of the opposite, actually.

Besides, if she turns out to write just like her dad, she'll be a lucky girl indeed.

[Goliath]

There are times when I want to go to a school playground and call out the bullies for a fight. Yes, I know that they are only kids. I don't care. That only improves my chances of winning. I get both the weight and the reach advantage. Man, I'd wade into them like a whirling dervish of pent-up childhood rage. The air would be filled with their pathetic crying as I slam into them. There wouldn't be enough Kleenex in the world to mop up the snot running from their noses. The rubber-matted ground would be littered with wimpering curled-up little punks. And there I would stand, surrounded by my fallen foes, with tightly-clenched fists raised in the air. I'd turn my face to the heavens and bellow a powerful and resounding victory cry.

Man, that'd be sweet.



You have no idea how often I've daydreamt of that exact scenario, myself.

Edited to say: On a second read, my version of the daydream sometimes involves more blood than snot.

[LadyShea]

What livius said

[wei yau]

The simpering appeaser thing totally looks like your baggage to me. For one thing, approaching someone with a smile even after they've fucked with you is hardly anti-social. It's kind of the opposite, actually.

I know, I know. You are absolutely right. It is my baggage.

I find it difficult NOT to project my baggage onto Rebecca. I guess the important thing is knowing when I'm doing it, since I'm unable to stop doing it all.

She has a sweet disposition and is very kind. When it's bedtime, all of her dolls get to go potty before bed. She picks up each one and asks if they have to go. Sits them down at the toilet and waits for them to finish. Then asks if they're okay before moving onto the next one.

She's very considerate.

Like I said, I don't want this to change. But, I'm very worried about her being bullied. Kids can be so cruel and hurtful.

I suppose you're right, as long as I am supportive and nuturing towards Rebecca, she'll develop a healthy self-image and won't be as victimized as I was.

again with the projection...


Besides, if she turns out to write just like her dad, she'll be a lucky girl indeed.

That's awfully kind of you to say, thank you.

[JoeP]

How old is she? Or was, when you wrote this? The dolly-potty story reminds me of my daughter colouring in dinosaurs and rabbits and whatever was in the colouring book of the moment - and then drawing on little plasters. "Sore - needs a pla'ter." (Or in serious cases, "needs bandiddes".)

I'm with LadyShea in being with Livius. Sounds like you have a free spirit and a diplomat. You don't really have any right (sorry, dad) to worry about things like this until she displays real problems like refusing to go to school (or reverting to bedwetting or diverting frustration onto her dolls, beating them up, or whatever all the other genuine signs are).

But go ahead and worry just a little bit - it's part of parenthood!

[LadyShea]

One thing you can do to help her is ensure she feels comfortable in telling you if she is being bullied. Being knocked down, then approaching with a smile seems healthy to me, unless that kid knocks her down again, and again and she goes back with a smile repeatedly. If that becomes the case, then you can discuss with her.

[wei yau]

How old is she? Or was, when you wrote this?

She's two now and I wrote this about six months ago.

The dolly-potty story reminds me of my daughter colouring in dinosaurs and rabbits and whatever was in the colouring book of the moment - and then drawing on little plasters. "Sore - needs a pla'ter." (Or in serious cases, "needs bandiddes".)

One of the most amazing things is watching them develop an imagination. Simply fascinating.

I'm with LadyShea in being with Livius. Sounds like you have a free spirit and a diplomat. You don't really have any right (sorry, dad) to worry about things like this until she displays real problems like refusing to go to school (or reverting to bedwetting or diverting frustration onto her dolls, beating them up, or whatever all the other genuine signs are).

But go ahead and worry just a little bit - it's part of parenthood!

Yeah, I'm feeling a little embarassed for worrying so much. As you said, it's my right as a parent (particularly a first-time parent). Generally, these things aren't at the forefront of my mind. I tend to dwell on them when I have a few quiet moments...that's when my insecurities tend to get the better of me.

[wei yau]

One thing you can do to help her is ensure she feels comfortable in telling you if she is being bullied. Being knocked down, then approaching with a smile seems healthy to me, unless that kid knocks her down again, and again and she goes back with a smile repeatedly. If that becomes the case, then you can discuss with her.

Very good advice, thank you.

Ensuring that she's always comfortable in telling me anything is one of the main goals I am striving for in parenthood. I suppose at the age of two, this isn't very realistic...right now I'm just trying to get her to tell me something intelligible.

[Adora]

In other words..."I'm a wuss."
Or maybe, "I'm a peacemaker". Have you ever thought of that POV?

From the sounds of it, you're just projecting your own "pent-up childhood rage".

Don't forget, when gets to the real schoolground, she'll probably move primarily in female friendship circles rather than a mixture of girls and boys. Female social groups in school are a lot more complex than male ones, so maybe she'll find her place and become stronger in ways you never even dreamed of.

My wife doesn't agree with this idea. Apparently, she has objections to teaching our daughter to kick kids in the throat.
NO REALLY!? I don't know whyever this could be.

But, this does nothing to solve my problem. I fear that Rebecca will become shy and withdrawn because kids can be so cruel.
You're assuming that the only deciding factor in this is other kids. Have you ever thought about, oh, I dunno, building her confidence so this has minimal effect on her? Helping her find her own talents that she can be proud of? Teaching her that whilst it's not okay to commit violence against someone, it's also not okay to just sit down and take it quietly? How about you just tell her to say "Don't push me over" very loudly instead of... throatkicking. Have you ever thought of thinking this through and maybe working out your own issues, before you tackle hers?

(hee hee heeh. The toys-potty thing is so cute. ^^ Your daughter sounds wonderful, and you should encourage traits like that, along with strong self-confidence. )

[LadyShea]

I loathe that part of me. I hate that I never stood up for myself against bullies. I hate that I never fought back.

Don't let yourself get stuck in the "if only" regret game. If you had stood up for yourself, if you had fought back, you wouldn't be who you are today. Hell, you might have ended up with a different wife, a different kid, you may not have developed any of the traits or attitudes or abilities you have now.

I like who you are today. If you had fought back you may have been a different person and I may not like you. Do you like who you are? Does your wife like who you are? If so, then you need to embrace all the things that made you who you are, including that part you currently loathe.

[wei yau]

From the sounds of it, you're just projecting your own "pent-up childhood rage".

That is most assuredly the case, I agree. And your response, as well as others, have helped me to identify the problem. Thank you.

Don't forget, when gets to the real schoolground, she'll probably move primarily in female friendship circles rather than a mixture of girls and boys. Female social groups in school are a lot more complex than male ones, so maybe she'll find her place and become stronger in ways you never even dreamed of.

She surprises me anew nearly every single day. I have no doubt that she'll continue to do so as she grows up.

Regarding the differences in male and female social groups in school, that is a fascinating subject. I never really felt comfortable in "traditional" male groups, most of my friends in school were female. While this means that they most definitely behaved differently towards me than they would with other female friends, I was still able to observe the complexities you're talking about.

You're assuming that the only deciding factor in this is other kids. Have you ever thought about, oh, I dunno, building her confidence so this has minimal effect on her? Helping her find her own talents that she can be proud of? Teaching her that whilst it's not okay to commit violence against someone, it's also not okay to just sit down and take it quietly? How about you just tell her to say "Don't push me over" very loudly instead of... throatkicking. Have you ever thought of thinking this through and maybe working out your own issues, before you tackle hers?

Working out my own issues is exactly why I go to counseling on a regular basis. Between that and posting here, I think I'm on my way to resolving some of those issues (or at least coping with them). I chose to start counseling because of my daughter. The last thing I want is for the sins of the father to be visited upon my daughter. She deserves better than that.

(hee hee heeh. The toys-potty thing is so cute. ^^ Your daughter sounds wonderful, and you should encourage traits like that, along with strong self-confidence. )

Thanks for the kind words about Rebecca, I truly appreciate them. As I truly appreciate the help you all have provided.

[Dingfod]

I hesitate to participate in this thread because I recognize now where I probably messed up with raising my two daughters. One of the ways I screwed up was not giving them much responsibility. My eldest is one screwed up kid, I'm trying not to have that happen with the younger one. However, they have their own personalities and they are quite different from each other. I realize that what I do has an impact, but that impact is likely to be different on their different personas.

I was also one of those kids that never stood up to bullies. Got my ass kicked a few times in Junior High, and even when I gained the size and strength to have sought revenge of those that bullied me, I didn't ever confront them. I knew this wasn't going to be a problem with my girls, who both were and are very close to me, when my oldest daughter got into trouble at her Junior High school for fighting. She put the smackdown on a girl that was bullying a younger smaller girl. My younger daughter punched a bully in the belly, knocking the wind out of them when she was just in 3rd grade, my kid could punch hard too. I found out it was my wife that told them to hit first and hit hard. I never knew she was teaching them that until the situation with the younger one came up. In almost every way but in this one way, they are both Daddy's girls.


Did I mention my wife scares me sometimes? What else did she teach them that I don't know about? That's scary too.

[Ex-zombie]

I"m not sure exactly why I am responding to this thread. I stood up to bullies as a child, the bullies never came at me twice.

I guess I just wanted to say there is much more to a person than aggressive tendencies. There is much more that matters in life than knocking someone down.

My oldest daughter also never stood up for herself and I wanted to say to her, "Dammit, there are times when you have to end this shit." But I wanted my daughter to be her own person and not push her to be someone that she wasn't. I encourage you as well to let your daughter be who she is. I don't think telling your child that you don't like who she is is healthy.

You say it reminds you of yourself as a child. Take a look at yourself. Can you honestly say you hope she doesn't turn out like you? You seem like an intelligent and caring person.

[livius drusus]

I'm a bit confused, frankly. I have little to no experience with bullying - although God knows I participated in more than one social ostracization ritual in my all girls' school days - but it seems to me that approaching a person who has knocked you down with a smile and an outstretched hand is standing up for yourself. It's just not the punch in the stomach variety. (BTW, your wife kinda scares me, Warren).

Perhaps y'all who have been bullied can tell me: when you were abused, how did you react to your abuser? Did you try to laugh it off and "be friends"? Is that what Rebecca's approach is being associated with? Because it seems to me far more likely that you'd seek to avoid the bully, or respond with hatred and/or fear.

I apologize if I'm dredging up painful muck for anyone. I just honestly don't understand.

[wei yau]

I like who you are today. If you had fought back you may have been a different person and I may not like you. Do you like who you are? Does your wife like who you are? If so, then you need to embrace all the things that made you who you are, including that part you currently loathe.

Actually, I do like myself quite a bit. As for my wife, I'm more likable because she married me. Despite the overwrought angst in this essay, I'm pretty happy with myself.

It's not so much that I want Rebecca to be different than who she is, it's more that I wish I could spare her the pain and humiliation of being bullied. I realize that my solution is really no solution at all. I realize that by nurturing her sense of self-confidence, I accomplish far more than teaching her how to kick ass ever would...but, as evident in this thread...some of that childhood baggage is so difficult to let go.

[pzmyers]

I experienced some bullying in grade school. Not a lot; I think I was just generally too strange for them, and they didn't know what to make of me. I was a major dexter, but at the same time I was from one of the poorer families in town, so I looked just like one of the rough boys at school -- there weren't any pretensions to knock down. If I were in a group of fellow teenagers wandering around Seattle, I was the one strangers would walk up to and ask if I had any drugs to sell. So I had good camouflage, I guess.

My daughter (who is now 14) freaked out her fellow students when we first moved here to the rural midwest. She's an atheist. She dyes her hair black. She must be one of those satan-worshipping city-slicker goths the preachers warn everyone about! I could tell the social pariah thing hurt at first, but her response is to just be herself, aggressively and assertively, and hang the shallow bigots who judge her by their stereotypes. Girls don't battle with fists so much as they do with cutting remarks, so I think self-confidence is probably the strongest defense.

[wei yau]

Perhaps y'all who have been bullied can tell me: when you were abused, how did you react to your abuser? Did you try to laugh it off and "be friends"? Is that what Rebecca's approach is being associated with? Because it seems to me far more likely that you'd seek to avoid the bully, or respond with hatred and/or fear.

I remember being bullied because I was small, I am Chinese, I have a bald spot (scar tissue from my birth) and a whole host of other things.

Generally, I reacted by taking my lumps and then retreating to a corner somewhere. As a victim, you have no friends. No one comes to your defense. No one comes to offer you post-beating support. You're left to lick your wounds by yourself.

I have to admit that I never tried to make peace with the bullies. It simply never occurred to me. I need to think on that and figure out why that is the case. Perhaps, as children, we are not fully aware of diplomatic social behavior. Perhaps, we simply rely on the playground politics of strength and weakness. There is no third way.

Only once did I ever stand up for myself. More precisely, I stood up for someone else. A bully was hassling one of my friends. I finally had enough and stood up (literally) and faced the bully. I simply stood between him and my friend and stared at him. He knocked me down. I got back up.

Not wanting to make a scene at school, he threatened to kill me once he caught me in the streets.

For the next few weeks, I was very nervous whenever venturing out into the neighhborhood. Always checking my back and 'round corners.

Sometime after that, the bully finally saw me walking on the streets. He came up to me and I steeled myself for an ass-kicking.

Surprisingly, he shook my hand. He said that he respected me for standing up for my friend. That it took balls and he was not going to kill me for it.

To this day, I look back at that incident with ambivalence. While I'm relieved that I did not get a beating, I am troubled by the lessons I've learned.

Do you stand up and fight? Do bullies only understand physical confrontation? Is there truly no third way?

[wei yau]

You have no idea how often I've daydreamt of that exact scenario, myself.

Edited to say: On a second read, my version of the daydream sometimes involves more blood than snot.

This response required the most thought for me and therefore is delayed.

I try not to succumb to feelings of anger and hurt over the bullying. I try to know that my worth is defined by things much greater than schoolyard bullies. I've learned that anger and resentment are powerful feelings, but in and of themselves, they accomplish nothing. I try to turn those feelings into more constructive uses (such as inspiring my writing).

Most of the time, I'm very successful at it.

But there are times when I worry. You see, it's not so much that I still feel anger or have feelings of revenge. It's more that I want to spare my daughter the pain and humliation I felt. Wanting to teach her to fight back is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. The image of such a petite and dainty little girl transforming into a snarling, rabid creature of vengeance amuses me.

But, in the end, I don't want her to change. She's very sweet and kind. I'd rather her be a peacemaker, than a warrior.

[beyelzu]

I'm a bit confused, frankly. I have little to no experience with bullying - although God knows I participated in more than one social ostracization ritual in my all girls' school days - but it seems to me that approaching a person who has knocked you down with a smile and an outstretched hand is standing up for yourself. It's just not the punch in the stomach variety. (BTW, your wife kinda scares me, Warren).

Perhaps y'all who have been bullied can tell me: when you were abused, how did you react to your abuser? Did you try to laugh it off and "be friends"? Is that what Rebecca's approach is being associated with? Because it seems to me far more likely that you'd seek to avoid the bully, or respond with hatred and/or fear.

I apologize if I'm dredging up painful muck for anyone. I just honestly don't understand.
I learned early on that kids will hardly ever make fun of me or snicker at me after I beat the shit out of them. and the second ass kicking will almost always seal the deal

oh, I also learned that even if you get the shit kicked out of you, taking it physical with a bully generally leads to not being picked on later.


on the other hand, I have some serious fucking paranoid issues, I am afraid that my friends dont really like me and I probably picked that shit up because from a fairly young age, about 10-11 kids who didnt like wouldnt say shit to me, because they didnt know what I would do in response.


and I obviously have some rage issues

[beyelzu]

also, just wanted to point out, that I havent been in a fight in years. people in general dont fuck with me when I am pissed. I am told that I am intimidating.

cant imagine why people think that :innocent:

[livius drusus]

Generally, I reacted by taking my lumps and then retreating to a corner somewhere. As a victim, you have no friends. No one comes to your defense. No one comes to offer you post-beating support. You're left to lick your wounds by yourself.

Unless you have a friend like you, that is. :)

I have to admit that I never tried to make peace with the bullies. It simply never occurred to me. I need to think on that and figure out why that is the case. Perhaps, as children, we are not fully aware of diplomatic social behavior. Perhaps, we simply rely on the playground politics of strength and weakness. There is no third way.

Perhaps Rebecca has found a third way all of her own, then. Also, it occurs to me that we might be conflating some things here. In your OP you mentioned her being knocked down; we don't really know if these pushes are intentional attempts to bully, and even if they are, they're pretty clearly on the lower end of the bullying scale.

We don't know, iow, how Rebecca would respond to the kind of harassment you experienced when you were a few years older than she is now. Perhaps she has something like a sense of proportion and realizes more or less unconsciously that a push, even one that made her cry, is not worth crying over for long.

Only once did I ever stand up for myself. <snip incident>

To this day, I look back at that incident with ambivalence. While I'm relieved that I did not get a beating, I am troubled by the lessons I've learned.

Do you stand up and fight? Do bullies only understand physical confrontation? Is there truly no third way?

Well, you stood up, but you didn't actually fight, did you? It seems to me that you found a little bit of a third way too. Had you tried to actually violate his bodily integrity, I imagine he would have whupped you for real right then and there. What you did was stand firm by your friend, thereby giving the bully the out of threatening you for appearance's sake even as he secretly admired your courage.

I'm not sure what lessons you've learned, eldar, but I hope one of them was an understanding that your own ethical imperative to defend people you care about is very powerful indeed. Stronger than the one to self-defense, even. Which I suppose brings us back to the OP and the reason you're so concerned about giving Rebecca every possible weapon against those who would harm her.

[wade-w]

also, just wanted to point out, that I havent been in a fight in years. people in general dont fuck with me when I am pissed. I am told that I am intimidating.

cant imagine why people think that :innocent:

I hear ya, bey. I was never bullied as a child. Physically, I was the total opposite to Eldar's daughter; I was so much bigger than my classmates that nobody in their right mind would even think about trying it. To give you an idea of the difference, when I was 10 years old I was 5' 10" tall and weighed 160 lbs. It would have taken real balls for anyone to try to bully someone who was bigger than any of the teachers. Since bullies are not exactly known for having real balls, well, it just never happened. Instead, I was just ostracised for being so different.

[Ex-zombie]

also, just wanted to point out, that I havent been in a fight in years. people in general dont fuck with me when I am pissed. I am told that I am intimidating.

cant imagine why people think that :innocent:

I have not been in a physical confrontation since the age of seventeen. People say I look like I will kick the shit out of them when I am angry. It pays to look so intimidating. Nobody wants to mess with you.

[Goliath]

I'm a bit confused, frankly. I have little to no experience with bullying - although God knows I participated in more than one social ostracization ritual in my all girls' school days - but it seems to me that approaching a person who has knocked you down with a smile and an outstretched hand is standing up for yourself. It's just not the punch in the stomach variety. (BTW, your wife kinda scares me, Warren).

Perhaps y'all who have been bullied can tell me: when you were abused, how did you react to your abuser? Did you try to laugh it off and "be friends"? Is that what Rebecca's approach is being associated with? Because it seems to me far more likely that you'd seek to avoid the bully, or respond with hatred and/or fear.

I apologize if I'm dredging up painful muck for anyone. I just honestly don't understand.

Hooboy...I don't know how to respond to this.

I won't go into details publicly, but you have an idea of what I went through, liv. I had about 10 years to try to figure out what to do and how to stop the abuse...I tried almost everything except physical confrontation. That was for at least a few reasons. First of all, I was afraid of getting hurt. I was also overweight as a kid (as I am now) and I knew back then that I probably wouldn't stand a huge chance in a fight.

But I was actually more afraid of winning than losing, to be honest. I was afraid that if I ever actually did start a fight and I was on the winning side, that I'd try to permenantly damage and/or kill one of them.

So...yeah. I'm done thinking about that for now.

[Dingfod]

Perhaps y'all who have been bullied can tell me: when you were abused, how did you react to your abuser? Did you try to laugh it off and "be friends"? Is that what Rebecca's approach is being associated with? Because it seems to me far more likely that you'd seek to avoid the bully, or respond with hatred and/or fear.As a male, when one is bullied one seldom has friends within helping distance, bullies don't work that way. When I was in Junior High, my most bullied years, I had a close friend that got most of his adult growth by that age, and I would seek shelter by hanging with him during breaks, at lunch and after school, the bullies were scared of Donnie.Generally, I reacted by taking my lumps and then retreating to a corner somewhere. As a victim, you have no friends. No one comes to your defense. No one comes to offer you post-beating support. You're left to lick your wounds by yourself.My experience pretty much follows eldar1011's here, except I didn't take my lumps very well. I'm sure I fed the bullying even more by being easy to bring to tears, just the sort of reaction they hope to get, submissiveness. Until my growth spurt at 15 or 16 years old, I was one of the smallest boys in my age group. I'm not really kidding when I state the only guy shorter than me in 7th grade was a guy that had signs of dwarfism. Poor Tommy, he was picked on even more than I, he got through it with a comical sense of humor and a wicked sense of revenge.

Even my one year younger sister was taller and bigger than I was for several years during my worst time. Perhaps this life experience is why I've allowed myself to have grown so fat, I don't know, maybe more than just subconciously I realize that being larger is an effective deterrent, a 6'-1" 275 pound man is a much more intimidating presence than a 5'-1" 100 pound boy.

I was the oldest of five children. My sisters are one and two years younger than I. I was taught early on, you don't hit girls. We lived a pretty isolated existence on a farm until I reached school age. I had no social skills whatsover and was painfully shy and sensitive, a trait that I've carried pretty much ever since, an easy mark for a bully. My brothers were six and eight years younger than me. I was taught early on, you don't hit people that are smaller than you.

I had a great relationship with my brothers and sisters and was often the peacemaker in the family, another trait that I've carried to this day.

I never developed any overt aggressiveness as a result of my childhood. I was angry at the mean people that picked on me but for some reason revenge never entered my mind, another trait carred to this day.

I was also sensitive and empathetic enough not to take my anger out on those weaker than myself, another trait I've carried to this day.

But, inanimate objects, such as firewood needing to be split, boards in need of breaking, or metal trashcans just sitting there all high and mighty were in imminent danger from my fury, another trait I carry to this day.

[Adora]

Perhaps y'all who have been bullied can tell me: when you were abused, how did you react to your abuser?

Well, I had a range of reactions.

When I was really young and still in primary school, I fought back, no matter how much bigger or older the person was. That was what I was like then- kind of different but not horribly ostracised as I became in high school. I still had my self confidence. Girl-bitching I just ignored, because back then I was never into the girly-teenage stuff and hung around with a group of girls and boys who weren't really gender-divided. There were kids a year or two older than me who would occasionally interfere or bullshit my group, and I got a few detentions for physically fighting with them sometimes. But other than that, everything was okay.

And then came high school. Heh, I get teh fucked up, because my mother seemed to think sending me to a co-ed school would improve my attitude towards the majority of teenage boys. Only problem is, she hadn't taught boys for almost 15 years and had forgotten how utterly disgusting they are.

It. Was. Hell. My reactions turned 180 degrees really fucking fast, because I realised a) the boys here were starting to get bigger than me, b) they moved more in packs, and beat up kids in groups rather than by themselves like they used to in high school, and c) for at least my first year of HS, I had no friends at all because I was sent to a school where no one from my primary school went.* Therefore, I had no one to help me or stand up for me. It took me about 2 weeks to sort out the fact that my best chance of survival was Ice Bitch mode, which I adapted quickly and became my trademark at this place. Dealing with the girls was easy, because teenage girls in those first years are stupid bitches high on hormones with about as many braincells as the boys, who were scared saying the word "lesbian" would turn them into one, and wouldn't know what irony was if it kicked them in the quinny.

But yes. I either ignored them (the abuse was mostly verbal, because I mostly managed to keep my head down far enough not to be physically abused) or ignored them or used retorts which they were too stupid to understand or ignored them (did I mention I ignored them?). Even when I had friends the next year, nothing much changed, and in fact some of it got worse resulting in physical retaliation from me. I ended up giving two boys black eyes, but I didn't get in trouble because a) my mother knew most of the staff and administration, and b) the teachers who were witnesses and dealt with the issue knew I was only retaliating after a very long time spent sitting quietly and taking it. It was less-than-deserved payback, and I had teh connections to get away scott free.

I would not, however, ever recommend people deal with it the way I did, because it changed me, a lot. I don't regret it or the way I changed because of it, but it is not a nice thing to have to do and it caused a number of psychological complications for me, like depression, very bad insomnia and suicide attempts because I internalised it all. Just ignoring it is more than just ignoring the abuse, it also involves not sticking your neck out and telling people who could help its going on. Oh sure, schools around here have "anti-bulling" policies, but any kid who actually suffers severe bullying will tell you they're a load of shit. Ignoring the problem is just another form of denial, and I realise now was not a good solution to the problem. Still, I was a kid, with no friends and no-one who could really help me (school counsellors= shit) and because of the way I was raised ("Never lower yourself to their level", which I ended up breaking, anyway) I wasn't programmed to go about it another way.

Meanwhile, when the stupid adults around me finally realised how fucked up I was (to this day, they still don't know about the suicide attempts though), they moved me to the school all my friends went to (about 2 years too late, though) which was single-sex. I was still a bit of an outsider, but my old friends were wonderful and accepted me straight into their group. I knew things had changed, but at that stage they were still okay and close-knit. Because of my experience at the last school though, I had developed a very defensive demeanor and was reluctant to let anyone really close to me except a good friend who had moved with me from the old school to the new school (because she couldn't stand it either). If anybody picked a fight with me I didn't hold back, though most girl-stuff is bitching and verbal/emotional, which I could handle easily and usually shot-down quickly if anyone tried any shit with me or my friends. I was never into the whole social-bullshit scene either so whenever there was shit about girlsfriends/boyfriends, I just laughed my arse off at them because it all seemed so pathetic and childish and I was still of the opinion that most teenage boys were gross (still am, actually) which was fine because most teenage boys were of the opinion I was weird, gross and totally not-cool to interact with on any level (the few boys I did interact with on a friendly level from a neighbouring school were picked on sometimes because of it). You wouldn't catch me dead at a social function either.

But yeah. By gr 11 social cliques were pretty much well-established, and though I kept my place in the old social group because it was closest to the tuckshop and we got free food before anyone else because of it (yessss), I had friends in other groups, and moved around a lot. The kinds of bullying by that time had moved on to ridiculous girlfriend/boyfriend shit, which I was never involved in so never had to worry about. I got to witness a lot of stuff though, and by that time my cynicism was in full-bloom, and there was nothing funnier than sitting around the pool at a friend's place on the weekend, mocking the hypocrites who went to church and were good mama's-girls, but spent every second night getting pissed out of their brains and sucking cock, and wouldn't understand Christian "compassion", "Mercy" and "forgiveness" if they stepped in it. Of course, they're the ones who had their university journalism/psychology degrees bought for them and were sent to Rome/the US/Canada/wherever on Daddy's chequebook after they left school, so it was a bit of good-ol Aussie classism as well. :D I guess that's a kind of bullying, but they were on the other side of town getting pissed and sucking cock, so they couldn't hear us.

It's strange now though. I don't keep in contact with anyone except the friend that moved with me from school 1 to school 2**, and I haven't spoken to her in months (and feel suitably guilty about it *angsts*). It's definitely because I never made those connections through my defensive shield I built in the first years of high-school, but I've learned to live with it, because it could not have been any other way.

Sorry for the long-as-fuck post, but I feel the subject needed it.

It's more that I want to spare my daughter the pain and humliation I felt.
Dory said it best...
"You can't never let anything happen to him. Cos then nothing will ever happen to him!" Your daughter isn't living your life. She's living her own. You can help her, but you shouldn't hinder her by projecting.

It's funny about revenge. I don't feel the need for it these days. I'm really happy overall with my life being a slacko-arts student (though I do have my down-days) and I hardly see any of the other people I didn't like, and everytime I do see them they have a sour I-am-stuck-in-the-social-order-and-eat-lemony-flavoured-shit-look on their face, which just makes me grin happily and buy celebratory gelato***. If they want to be conformist fucks in HS and mock kids who aren't, then they deserve everyfuckingthing they get from the Social Order that doesn't give a fuck about them, is going to drive them to smoke and become bored unhappy housewives and/or telemarketers. When I do find out things about the people who really used to really rag on me, they're either working shitty jobs or had something not-nice happen to them, and fuck, they actually seem surprised life isn't roses and cupcakes and paying out on people they think are lower down the foodchain than them.

Karma's a real bitch, aint she?

*For the record, I still have a massive chip on my shoulder against my mother for this, even though I love her to death and everything.

** Also, in Australia, there are mostly two levels of schooling. One is primary, from Pre-school to gr 6/7, the next is secondary, from 7/8-12. Some states divide secondary into 7/8-10, then 11 & 12 seperately. Both schools I went to were run by Catholics, but the first was co-ed, and the second was single-sex, if you haven't figured it out by now. Academically, both were pretty shit, but *shrugs*. What can ya do?

*** Mmmmm gelato. *drools*

[livius drusus]

Dammit. Why can I never just write tl;dr even when it's so obviously called for? Adora, Goliath, bey, Warren, pz, I very much appreciate hearing y'all's perspectives on your personal experiences. Thank you.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound to me like Rebecca's smile reaction has many communalities with the kinds of things y'all did when faced with abusive assholes. eldar, is part of your concern that if she smiles at someone who knocked her down now when she's so young, that she'll be unable/unwilling to protect herself if she gets harassed more viciously when she's older?

I guess in the end it just seems to me that her circumstances and behavior right now aren't really comparable to the bullying dynamics you and others in this thread have described. I feel like it's a bit of a domino theory you've got going on, and it just doesn't strike me as justifiable based on current data.

[Dingfod]

It might work. For one thing, if you smile at someone that just knocked you to the ground, they'll probably think you're crazy or something. Of course, there is the possiblity they might try to wipe the smile off your face, it might infuriate them instead. You have no idea how badly I wanted to wipe the smirk off someone's face, someone that has been on our televisions entirely too much in the past four years.


Caveat: I'm the guy that can find a dark cloud in front of every silver lining.

[wei yau]

eldar, is part of your concern that if she smiles at someone who knocked her down now when she's so young, that she'll be unable/unwilling to protect herself if she gets harassed more viciously when she's older?

I guess in the end it just seems to me that her circumstances and behavior right now aren't really comparable to the bullying dynamics you and others in this thread have described. I feel like it's a bit of a domino theory you've got going on, and it just doesn't strike me as justifiable based on current data.

Well, as I've said in this thread before, I'm sure I'm projecting. I don't have any serious concerns that Becca is being bullied at daycare. If anything, her reaction to being knocked down simply triggered some thoughts in my head.

I appreciate everyone's reactions and support, but I do feel that perhaps my OP was a bit overwrought. At the most basic, I have concerns that Becca will be a victm of bullying. Having been a victim of bullying, I don't know how to teach her to either fight back or cope with it. I realize that by being supportive and nuturing, I can help Becca develop a good sense of self-confidence, which may be her best way to deal with bullying.