Let me pick your brains...

[Julie]

SO my very very active 5 year old son has been having problems in kindergarten. He's been acting out, name calling, hitting, pushing, spitting. All of these are NOT normal behaviours for my DS who is usually a happy go lucky child.

His teacher has ben riding his ass from day one. She's the kind of teacher that thinks all kids should sit quietly and do a they are told 100% of the time.

This teacher told my 5 year old son that if he wasn't good like the other kids that he wouldn't be allowed to go to school. She told him that kids wouldn't want to be friends with him if he wasn't like him.

I had a meeting yesterday with the teacher and the princepal that ended with me withdrawing my child not only from that teachers class but from the school.

The teacher (inbetween telling me how horrible my child was and Yet so smart!) made a comment that had me speachless.

She Said my child marches to the beat of a different drum (Duh!) and that he couldn't, he had to learn to be like everyone else. She said Children that are different have no friends and will never have any friends

At this point I realized that we had some major differences in dealing with the world and that there is no way my child would ever be successful in her class.

At the time I just could not think of a reply to her "Children that are different..." comment

If you were in my situation what would you have done?

[Shake]

It would have taken all my strength not to slap her upside the head for a comment like that. I think I'd have had to just turn and walk away from her. If she then tried to call me back, I'd say that neither she nor anyone around would really care to hear how I felt at the moment, and if she was smart she'd just let me go.

I don't know, it doesn't sound like she really understands 5 year olds.

Maybe you should have told her that if she wanted a room full of robots that she should go to an auto assembly plant.

I mean, in one respect, I understand what she's getting at: there are some rules which everyone is expected to follow. However, any teacher worth their salt will know that not all kids are the same and that she may have to treat some of them differently. It sounds to me like either she just doesn't know what to do with him or she's too lazy to take the time to figure out how to connect with him.

I think you were right to at least remove him from the class. I'm sure that since you had him in school that you felt he was ready for it, right? I'm not trying to take their side, but not all kids, and especially boys, are ready for school at the same time.

Boy, I don't know. The more I let this stew in my head, the angrier I get about it, and it's not even my kid! I commend you on being able to keep your cool. I'd tell her that I'd be sending a letter to the local board of education about her lack of fitness to teach (5 year olds anyway). I might have also told her that I felt sorry for her, living in a world where everyone was the same.

By the way, have you asked your son about his behavior and what he thought was going on?

Also, I wanted to wish you (and he) good luck with a new school and class.

[livius drusus]

That's just appalling, Julie. I'm not a parent, but you did exactly what I would have done in your place. Did the principal have anything at all to say about this teacher's horrendous conformity at all costs approach?

Honestly, it seems to me that many schools employ that principle in their structures and methods, but to have a teacher actually come out and say to you that his aim is to create cookie-cutter kids nomatter how much it hurts them just blows my mind.

:banghead:

[pescifish]

[Crossposted with livius and Shake, both of whom expressed what I wanted better than I did anyway. Yeah, what they said!]

I would have smiled in that oh-so-scary way I have, taken my child and walked away.

If it's a public school, it could be useful to document it and see if there is some agency where it could be reported. In this day and age, diversity is the new buzz. At least it seems like it to me on tv and at my large corporation. That teacher needs a bit of a talkin' to.

Still, if I had other options for my kid, I wouldn't bother doing the talking myself.

p.s. How pathetic am I that I kinda cheered up at the thread title? I was hoping for a real zombie looking online for some good snacking.

[lisarea]

Assuming this is a public school (if it's not, substitute the private school hierarchy and the issues as applicable), I'd write a letter to the superintendant of schools, CC:ed to the teacher and the principal, and anyone else to whom you think it might be applicable, including the NEA, maybe even.

One trick to a good complaint letter is to pander to the person you're writing to--in this case, the superintendant. Work in a lot of stuff about how you respect the high standards the school district maintains, and address the issue as thought it's something you are certain they will resolve once it's brought to their attention. Be friendly and respectful. This can work a little when you're trying to get someone on your side. Almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know?

But make no bones about the fact that it is pure incompetence at work here. Don't lie about your child being active, and admit that he has been causing problems, but focus on the fact that the teacher is incapable of dealing with active, creative children, and definitely include the quote you included here. That's just inexcusable.

Look through this overview of the ADA, IDEA, and Section 504 as well, (http://ericec.org/digests/e606.html) and maybe incorporate a few key phrases and terminology you find in there, to at the very least raise the spectre of noncompliance with federal mandates. You don't even have to threaten, but simply raise the issue sort of disingenuously. Maybe something like this:

It appears that my son's teacher regards my son as having such a mental impairment that limits his ability to participate in the school environment. Her solution to this problem, however, was not to examine potential accommodations that might help him integrate into the classroom environment, but rather to inform my son that he would not be able to attend her class, or school in general, and that he would, and I quote, "never have any friends." I am certain that this is not the school district's policy in regards to children with learning disabilities and behavioral issues, so I thought it was my responsibility to bring this situation to your attention.

Again, don't threaten to sue unless you're ready and able to follow through, but if you just throw in a few key words from relevant legislation, it should raise the appropriate red flags. The definitions of 'disability' are really pretty broad as far as the law is concerned, and federally funded schools have a mandate to serve all eligible children whenever possible. I would hardly personally classify a five year old who acts up in kindergarten as 'disabled,' but the shoe may well fit, at least legally.

Ooh. Maybe work in the phrasing free, appropriate public education, too, or something similar enough to set off alarms.

Make sure you tell them what resolution you'd like as well. You could request a meeting, tuition reimbursement (http://www.futureofchildren.org/usr_doc/vol7no3ART9.pdf)* (sorry that's a PDF) for a private school, or just a simple response and acknowledgement that the school district is going to rectify the situation. Make sure you mention the fact that you are not just concerned with your own child, but with all the other children who may be affected by this teacher's egregious behavior (and make no mistake, it is egregious for a teacher to tell a five year old child that he will never have any friends).

I would also send the letter certified mail, just for the hell of it. It only costs a couple of bucks, and it does tend to lend a little gravity to your communications. They can't pretend they didn't get it, anyway.

* I guess this would entail an actual lawsuit, but you could phrase it as a question, such as "What is the school district's responsibility if it is determined that my son requires private schooling?"

[Ex-zombie]

I think you did the right thing pulling your child out. That lady should not be teaching any children. Sounds like she needs an attitude adjustment.

[LadyShea]

Jesus H. Fucking Christ what a bitch. I would have taken my kid out too, but I also would have raised a huge ruckus and probably gotten all up in the Principals face and asked him if he thought those comments appropriate and called a lawyer right from his office. I tend to get nasty though with blatant...injustice I guess you'd call it.

Are there magnet or charter schools in your area you can enroll him in instead? Did you post at Sybermoms? What did they say?

[HelenM]

SO my very very active 5 year old son has been having problems in kindergarten. He's been acting out, name calling, hitting, pushing, spitting. All of these are NOT normal behaviours for my DS who is usually a happy go lucky child.

His teacher has ben riding his ass from day one. She's the kind of teacher that thinks all kids should sit quietly and do a they are told 100% of the time.

This teacher told my 5 year old son that if he wasn't good like the other kids that he wouldn't be allowed to go to school. She told him that kids wouldn't want to be friends with him if he wasn't like him.

I had a meeting yesterday with the teacher and the princepal that ended with me withdrawing my child not only from that teachers class but from the school.

The teacher (inbetween telling me how horrible my child was and Yet so smart!) made a comment that had me speachless.

She Said my child marches to the beat of a different drum (Duh!) and that he couldn't, he had to learn to be like everyone else. She said Children that are different have no friends and will never have any friends

At this point I realized that we had some major differences in dealing with the world and that there is no way my child would ever be successful in her class.

At the time I just could not think of a reply to her "Children that are different..." comment

If you were in my situation what would you have done?

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're having with your son's teacher.

Even if you had had some wonderful response to that teacher it probably wouldn't have made any difference.

It's hard for me to know what I would have done in your situation. As I recall the behavior expectations of my kids at kindergarten level were minimal compared with what they were used to already and so not a problem for either of them.

It sounds quite possible that this teacher and your son wouldn't have been able to work things out so that your son could have a good year with him/her so I may well have requested a change of teacher, if that were possible. I have friends who pulled their child out (she was third grade at the time, I think) and homeschooled her for the rest of a year because it wasn't working with her teacher and the school wouldn't switch teachers. Their daughter went back the next school year and things were fine; I guess it was just that one teacher. I know someone else whose son changed schools for one year (or maybe two?) at first grade level because the teacher basically couldn't handle him; the son went into special ed at another local public school. After those one or two years he was back at my kids' school and mainstreamed again. Teachers definitely vary widely in their ability to handle kids.

Having said all that, I'd want to understand why my own child was acting out in a classroom setting so that I could address it. I'd want to be able to help my child not to act out whether there is a teacher change or not. It doesn't seem obvious to me that your son's behavior is directly attributable to the way the teacher handles her students, although I am not trying to defend her unhelpful inflexible attitude. Do you have any idea why he has started doing this in class? Maybe there is a connection in that it's a way he expresses anger at the way the teacher handles him. But if so and if he were my child, I'd want him to know that hurting other kids is not an acceptable way to express anger. I'd try to help him find appropriate ways to do it. Because even if he gets a great teacher, your son is likely to be in situations where he gets frustrated and he needs to know what he can appropriately do when that happens.

Anyway, what are you going to do now you've pulled your son out? Do you have any plans yet? Is he even required to go to school yet? In my area I think mandatory school begins at first grade.

Helen

[Adora]

If you were in my situation what would you have done?
I would have laughed my arse off, told them that if everyone in the world were as rotten as these people were, that comment would be true, and yet, it's not, and walked out.

Dude, dems bitches. Your kid is obviously just reacting to the psycho-ass teacher, and I would have done the same thing in his position. Well, I did do the same thing in my school years, actually. :D Seriously, there's good teachers who try to accomodate all children yet do have set rules that they expect everyone to follow, then there are nazis. It seemed, thanks to disgusting comments like that last one, that you got the latter. Or maybe they're just projecting their own childhood issues, which is probable considering the number of fucked-up individuals in the teaching profession. You're doing your kid a favour by withdrawing him, because otherwise it would have become worse, and your kid probably would have developed a reputation. Seriously, I can't believe any teacher these days would make comments like that, even if they did believe them. Especially kindergarten ones. It's fucking ridiculous.

[Dingfod]

My youngest brother was a problem like that, if my parents had pulled him from school every time a teacher said something about it, he'd have been pulled from a lot of schools. His problem was that he was bored. He was so far ahead of the other kids in reading and pretty much everything, that the pace was too slow for him. He would've thrived in a more open environment, one that the old one-room schoolhouses used to foster. Back then, if a kid had the capability of skipping a grade or two, they were allowed to, something that is pretty rare today.

Julie, are there any Montessori schools in your area? They are more open, allowing children to explore their own interests, especially beneficial to the younger school-age children. My youngest daughter was much like your son, but the Montessori Kindergarten they had at our church made great strides in making her more, shall we say, docile, and at the same time, interested and studious. Once in the public school first grade, she fit in pretty well.

http://www.montessori.org/

[godfry n. glad]

Alright...

I suspect that Worn is very close to the mark. I'd bet that the boy is bored. Especially from the sounds of "one size fits all" teacher. The methods employed by the teacher were distinctly inappropriate....and counterproductive.

When I was teaching, and I encountered disruptive students, I started with their counselors and their parents. I strove to understand the student and their needs....and worked with parents. Sometimes I even included a vice-principal...and I was just a substitute, and all my students were adolescents.

I think lisarea's advice is very good. Keep it calm. Point out the obvious. Recommend reasonable redress. Negotiate terms. Expect the best for your child. Any alternative proposed should be acceptable to you and your child.

At five, it is possible the child is not ready for structured school environments. Public school classrooms tend to be pretty structured, often of necessity. It's also possible the child has a precocious curiosity and the energy to apply it in a myriad of events unexpected by the oridinary (or sub-ordinary) teacher.

I'm not clear on whether this was public school or private. If public, and I were in your situation, I'd angle for some kind of alternate placement, or, if you've the ability, go private school. Montessori is good; so is Waldorf. Both cost money above and beyond what you're paying for the school district in taxes. (Whatever you do, don't spout off using the phrase, "As a taxpayer...." It is very, very old, and besides, they're taxpayers, too.) If the public school can't provide an acceptable alternative (be realistic, here), then you might have a better case for the school district to pick up the cost of the child's education costs....unlikely, though.

Depending upon your situation, you could look into home schooling. That tends to be a long shot for most folks, though, as they quickly find out that teaching ain't all as easy as it seems to look. It's tough on income, too, when one source disappears.

One final note.... There are educators and social workers and physicians out there who are quick to jump at the diagnosis of a hyperactive child, or in the latest vernacular, ADHD - Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder. I personally have my doubts about the ready drug use in treating this disorder. The disorder exists, but, in my estimation, it tends to be over-diagnosed. It seems to be a handy catch-all. Treat it with some skepticism. I suspect that many precociously curious, intelligent children and children with different learning styles, are, as "ADHD", needlessly drugged to be "mainstreamed" into a "regular classroom".


godfry

[Dingfod]

School attendence is manditory in many states. In those, the school system has to provide an education, even if the student cannot be taught in a traditional classroom. There may be indeed a system by which you can get funds for your son to attend an alternative school. Or... have you thought about home-schooling?

[Julie]

I'm Canadian so some of this advice dosn't apply unfortunatly. This is public school. No Magnet schools, no alternative schools (and the only one even close is over an hour away and has a few years waiting list) Montessori is out for us, we just can't afford it (He went there for preschool and did well But we can't afford the ) There is no near by Waldorf school and even if there was the cost is half our household income I would LOVE to send him waldorf, we use a lot of the walfdorf ideas with in the house, playsilks and the playstands are both my kids favorite toys) unfortunatly they wont let me pay for it in trade ( I make a wicked waldorf doll

I know a lot of the problems are from him being bored, even the Teacher was saying his gross motor skills are advanced, his fine motor skills are at the top and his reading/writing/math (and they don't even do science in K) are advanced. But she was not willing to work with him to challenge him at all, even little things like sending home more advanced books to read. (When I was in K they sent me up to my sisters third grade class for reading. I know it can be done, Heck this is the same school district!)

Helen you'd better believe I'm trying to find out WHY my son has been behaving this way. His behaviour was WRONG and he knows that. I made it perfectly clear to both the teacher and the princepal that I was not saying he wasn't wrong at all. He was, I know he was, HE knows he was. My issue really wasn't with the teacher handeling of his behaviour (altho I do wish she had applied it equally to the rest of the kids, DS would get in trouble for something when two boys right beside him doing the exact same thing would not get a word said to them) My Issue was in her telling a FIVE year old child that if he wasn't like the other kids he'd never have friends, that he would not be ALLOWED to go to school (They have to supply an education even if that means having a teacher come to the house) But again it was in school only behaviour (and it never happened at pre-school) and was something that needed to be delt with, and not in the "Oh he's just a BAD child there is nothing that can be done" way. The teacher should have been willing to work with me on it and she wasn't. WE use an increadbly effective 1-2-3 approach to negative behaviour at home (I highly reccomend 1-2-3 magic to any one with children. It's great and really really promotes a respectful approach to disipline) and the teacher was not willing to even try. My SOn is also involved in after school activities and has NO behaviour issues in any of them, it's purely an in that class room problem.

I fully expect to have further problems with my sons behaviour in school. He's very smart (He scares me sometimes really, just yesterday he was asking me "If the world is round why when I look out are things straight? The roads look straight the land looks stright. Shouldnt they be round Mommy?" Thats a heavy question for his age.) My sister and I had the same things in school...but even in kindergarten the schools worked with us (And For fucksake that damn principal KNOWS the school district has done things to challenge kindergarteners, SHE was MY kindergarten theacher for part of my first school year. I was given lots of extra things to do in class to keep me busy) Really his behaviour that wasn't the issue (altho I do believe it was a symptom of something not a stand alone thing) He was misbehaving and that needed to be delt with. But his behavour does NOT excuse a grown up telling a 5 year old that if he wasnt like everyone else he wouldn't have any friends. emotionally harming a child is NOT the way to help them learn how to act and react within acceptable limits.

I've thought about homeschooling, but in all honestly I know *I'm* not capable of doing it. I do work with him at home everyday, he just dosn't realize thats what we are doing. We do phonics, math science Heck we do geography...My kids just think I'm playing games with them. I've been a Stay at home Mom for 5 years...Having my son gone for a few hours a day is a good thing. Good for him and Good for His little sister and good for myself. I will continue to supplement his school education with work at home, but homeschooling fulltime isn't the right choice for our family right now.

I have an appointment on Monday with the principal of the new school (I didn't want to switch school just teachers but their is a limit to class size and there was no wiggle room in the schhol he was at) I plan on going in with a plan in hand. A plan to deal with the behavioural issues and a few requests (Like giving him extra things to do to keep him challenged) If needed to have him tested to see where he does stand and what we need to pay attention to. From the breif conversation I had with the new principal things sem better. He was open to suggestions and was at least willing to listen. Thats a heck of a lot more than the last principal was willing to do.

I really appreaciate all of your thoughts. It really helps me to see what you all have to say. I think I'm going to get in contact with the Waldorf school again and see if they would be willing to work a trade (Heck custom dyed playsilks, hand crafted playstands and hand sewn Waldorf dolls...even wooden cars and food...they should be begging someone with my skills to join them!)

Oh and Ladyshea the SM's thought they were both a pair of stunned cunts (and sitting htere listening to that teacher go on about "Different kids never have friends" Things like Stunned cunt and cousin humper and swift kick to the piss flaps floated thru my mind)


Julie

[HelenM]

Helen you'd better believe I'm trying to find out WHY my son has been behaving this way.

Fair enough. I hope you didn't think I was implying you weren't. It was more that I was thinking about how I'd feel and I know I'd be tempted to completely blame the teacher, since the behavior problems happen only in her class - yet it would be in my child's best interests for me to make sure that my child understands where to draw the line when frustrated/bored/upset/angry.

His behaviour was WRONG and he knows that. I made it perfectly clear to both the teacher and the princepal that I was not saying he wasn't wrong at all. He was, I know he was, HE knows he was. My issue really wasn't with the teacher handeling of his behaviour (altho I do wish she had applied it equally to the rest of the kids, DS would get in trouble for something when two boys right beside him doing the exact same thing would not get a word said to them)

That's so unfair and I expect he was well aware of how unfair it was :(

Have you been talking with him about how you don't agree with what she says? I assume you have; you seem like a very involved pro-active Mom :)

My Issue was in her telling a FIVE year old child that if he wasn't like the other kids he'd never have friends, that he would not be ALLOWED to go to school (They have to supply an education even if that means having a teacher come to the house)

Indeed - it's such a ridiculous thing for a teacher to say.

But again it was in school only behaviour (and it never happened at pre-school) and was something that needed to be delt with, and not in the "Oh he's just a BAD child there is nothing that can be done" way. The teacher should have been willing to work with me on it and she wasn't.

Absolutely. Of course no teacher will have the same emotional investment in your children as you, yet it was wrong of her not to try to work with you.

WE use an increadbly effective 1-2-3 approach to negative behaviour at home (I highly reccomend 1-2-3 magic to any one with children. It's great and really really promotes a respectful approach to disipline) and the teacher was not willing to even try. My SOn is also involved in after school activities and has NO behaviour issues in any of them, it's purely an in that class room problem.

Which shows clearly that your son doesn't have some across-the-board school behavior problem which is impossible to deal with, in spite of what the teacher may think.

I fully expect to have further problems with my sons behaviour in school. He's very smart (He scares me sometimes really, just yesterday he was asking me "If the world is round why when I look out are things straight? The roads look straight the land looks straight. Shouldnt they be round Mommy?" Thats a heavy question for his age.)

Yes, it is. He's definitely a smart thoughtful guy :)

My sister and I had the same things in school...but even in kindergarten the schools worked with us (And For fucksake that damn principal KNOWS the school district has done things to challenge kindergarteners, SHE was MY kindergarten theacher for part of my first school year. I was given lots of extra things to do in class to keep me busy) Really his behaviour that wasn't the issue (altho I do believe it was a symptom of something not a stand alone thing) He was misbehaving and that needed to be delt with. But his behavour does NOT excuse a grown up telling a 5 year old that if he wasnt like everyone else he wouldn't have any friends. emotionally harming a child is NOT the way to help them learn how to act and react within acceptable limits.

You're absolutely right - it doesn't excuse the teacher's words or behavior.

The reason to address your son's behavior is because, as you say, his problems with being bored in school are probably not over, unfortunately, even if the new school is more flexible.

I've thought about homeschooling, but in all honestly I know *I'm* not capable of doing it.

I hear you - I've wondered about that from time to time when schoolwork has seemed way below what my son is capable of, but feel the same way about my inability to do it.

I do work with him at home everyday, he just dosn't realize thats what we are doing. We do phonics, math science Heck we do geography...My kids just think I'm playing games with them.

Neat :)

We're going to France next Summer and my latest project with my kids is hopefully to learn some French before they go. Neither of them have done any at school; they are both doing some Spanish and that's their only foreign language so far; but my daughter is so good at Spanish I know she'll have no problems with French. We started listening to a couple of tapes/borrowed a couple of computer games from the library and she's already noticing a lot of the French words are similar to Spanish and comparing such things as nouns having gender in French to how they do in Spanish (but not English, of course)

I've been a Stay at home Mom for 5 years...Having my son gone for a few hours a day is a good thing. Good for him and Good for His little sister and good for myself. I will continue to supplement his school education with work at home, but homeschooling fulltime isn't the right choice for our family right now.

As I said, I can understand that. I used to be more upset that school wasn't especially challenging to my children a lot of the time but lately I've decided to focus on it being a 'general education for life' and as that it has some merit, at least.

I have an appointment on Monday with the principal of the new school

I'm glad there's another school, so you do have a choice.

(I didn't want to switch school just teachers but their is a limit to class size and there was no wiggle room in the schhol he was at) I plan on going in with a plan in hand. A plan to deal with the behavioural issues and a few requests (Like giving him extra things to do to keep him challenged) If needed to have him tested to see where he does stand and what we need to pay attention to. From the breif conversation I had with the new principal things sem better. He was open to suggestions and was at least willing to listen. Thats a heck of a lot more than the last principal was willing to do.

That's wonderful news.

I think it's an advantage to be talking about this with the principal now, rather than after a situation has already arisen in which it's become Your Child vs The Teacher. Once that's happened, I think the principal is put in a difficult situation because he/she is not going to want to say that his/her teacher is useless/incompetent/out-of-line. I'm not defending the way the other principal handled the situation - but I do think it's harder for the principal to work with you when the teacher has made it Her against Your Child and the principal has to support the teachers as well as trying to help children have the best school experience.

I think your decisive intervention to rescue your son from a nasty teacher is a wonderful way to show your love and support for him. I hope the new school will turn out to be a much better environment for him than the last one.

Helen

[godfry n. glad]

I think your decisive intervention to rescue your son from a nasty teacher is a wonderful way to show your love and support for him. I hope the new school will turn out to be a much better environment for him than the last one.

Helen

Ditto.

And, Julie...when you said,
Really his behaviour that wasn't the issue (altho I do believe it was a symptom of something not a stand alone thing) He was misbehaving and that needed to be delt with. But his behavour does NOT excuse a grown up telling a 5 year old that if he wasnt like everyone else he wouldn't have any friends. emotionally harming a child is NOT the way to help them learn how to act and react within acceptable limits.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm also happy to see that you are willing to acknowledge a problem and work with the school on addressing that problem. It's best to work as a team, rather than competing as "us" and "them". As a teacher, I've seen too many parents who had no idea how their child behaved at school...of course, I was dealing with high school kids, who try on new persona on a seemingly daily basis.

I also recommend recognizing that some personality combinations are not comfortable and just not workable. It happens.

I'm hoping you are offered, or stumble across, a decent learning environment for your child. My friends and neighbors went one further and found other parents and started their own Waldorf school. You sound like you might be in a rural or semi-rural situation, though, which would make it more difficult.
If you're in or near an urban area, check around...there might be other parents relatively nearby that are interested as well. Your connections to a known Waldorf school sounds like a good starting point.

Best,

godfry

[LadyShea]

Julie, can you link to the SM thread, they don't allow member specific searches.

Nevermind, found it