New Zealand foreshore and seabed controversy

[beyelzu]

I was dicking around ye old wikepedia earlier today and have decided that nz has much cooler government than the us does. with lots of cool political parties, I wish the us had more active parties. Fucking winner takes all system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_foreshore_and_seabed_controversy
anyway do you guys think the maori got shafted?

I think public domain would have been the way to go, I dont like government ownership as the land seems to have been given to the maoris by treaty. Public domain would have been a compromise.

[Zoe]

I need to do more reading about this issue, as it's been going on for a wee while now, but my focus has been US elections and campaigning, and Iraq/MidEast, so I'm woefully behind on this one.

My initial reaction is no, the Maori have not been shafted. There are some Maori activists that would like to promotoe the idea that they have been shafted, but the NZ foreshore and seabed becoming the property of all NZ'ers is a good thing, imo.

I'm just posting quickly while Zoe is busy, so I'll have to get back to you with some of the arguments, politics, and social issues that surround this controversy. And I'm going to need to read up a bit.


But in response to our political system and variety of parties/politicians, I think we do indeed rock. Where else do you find openly transsexual mayors being elected office several times in a conservative area? Or a pot-smoking, dreadlock-haired hippy as an MP; or Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, and atheist MP's all being able to share in, and have an effect on, Parliament? Without bringing their religion into it at all!

There are many things that piss me off about NZ, but our political system and the people we choose to represent us in our diversity and the way we live our lives is not one of them. :)

bbl...

[Adora]

Yeah man. When I get older, I'm going to help restor some of the migratory balance and move to NZ for a little while.

I've always found the Maori position in NZ interesting, because I have a hard time comparing it to other indigenous experiences around the world. They certainly have more power and say in the society than many indigenous peoples, though still suffer things like high rates of infant mortality from things like Menangicocle C (which some people think is actually a genetic predisposition).

[wildernesse]

HEY! I'm trying to procrastinate writing my paper about issues pertaining to this, and what do I find, but a freaking thread in my procrastinating activity! Bah!!!

What is this, some kind of sign? LALALALALALALA. I'm not listening, and no one ask me about what my paper is about--because my topics always sound stupid and I will not tell you. SO there.

Wwwaaahhh! :spinning:

Back to your actual discussion.

[beyelzu]

HEY! I'm trying to procrastinate writing my paper about issues pertaining to this, and what do I find, but a freaking thread in my procrastinating activity! Bah!!!

What is this, some kind of sign? LALALALALALALA. I'm not listening, and no one ask me about what my paper is about--because my topics always sound stupid and I will not tell you. SO there.

Wwwaaahhh! :spinning:

Back to your actual discussion.
what if I say pretty please will you tell me what you are writing about then?

[Zoe]

Y'know, I really hope Zoot, Sycophant and Godfather show up to this thread, as I'm sure they are far better informed on this than I, and I would like to hear their points of view and read any links they may offer.

It's good to have some other Kiwis around besides myself. :)


In the meantime, here is a link to search results at the Listener: http://www.listener.co.nz/search.do?q=foreshore&x=0&y=0

Those links may be a good start for anyone interested, but as for me....back to the kitchen where I belong... I'm being kicked offa here again...


bloody kids...they should be out gathering kai moana*, not sitting in here bugging me about the 'puter!


*'Cepting there is no moana nearabouts to gather any kai from. Bugger.

[Godless Dave]

Serves you right for posting under your kid's account!

[Zoot]

Y'know, I really hope Zoot, Sycophant and Godfather show up to this thread, as I'm sure they are far better informed on this than I, and I would like to hear their points of view and read any links they may offer.

Behold! I am the lesser of the three in this particular matter, but what I lack in knowledge about issue, I make up for in raw sexual magnetism.

Yea! The first thought that comes to mind is that NZ's relationship with the colonised indigenous people is basically the best in the world. That doesn't make it perfect, but it's a damn sight better than recent apartheid (South Africa), current apartheid (Palestine), relatively recently hunting people as animals (Australia) or, well, the US.

Avast! I'll summon the other two, who know far better than I do when it comes to local politics. I'm the guy for personal identity, Continental philosophy, smooving the ladies kind of stuff. My older brothers are FAR tastier than me.

When it comes to NZ politics.

AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!

[Sycophant]

Look, I am currently working for Maori Television here, and the fact is, I really don't know a lot about the whole foreshore ans seabed thing.

In fact, when the biggest moment of the whole thing,the Hikoi (or march) across NZ was happening, I wasn't even in the country, I was living it up in Fiji. When I got back, my taxi driver made some comment about "that Hikoi thing" and I just nodded and grunted (as you do when taxi drivers talk).

So nup. I can't help a lot. Generally, yes, I think the Maori got shafted, as most native populations did by colonisation. I'm not really sure how I feel about that now though.

[Petra]

Good on ya, mate - I was hoping you guys would return.



I have to ask about the raw sexual magnetism, though.

...umm.... aren't you known as noodle boy? :giggle:

[Petra]

Hiya, Sychophant.

I'm Ngati Whakaue, and my cousin has worked for about 20 years or so for the Maori Land Court covering the North Island. For the last several years she has been Registrar of the Court. I'll be catching up with her a Xmas, so I'll ask her what she thinks about it, as I'm sure she'll have an opinion. All the Ngatai women do. :D

As I said, though, on this issue my knowledge is scant - but how do you think they've been shafted with reagrd to seabed and foreshore?

[Petra]

By the way, do you know the couple that have Hula-Haka Television Productions in Rotorua - Mike Jonathon and Nevak Ilolahia? I'm pretty sure they do a lot of work for Maori television.

[Sycophant]

As I said, though, on this issue my knowledge is scant - but how do you think they've been shafted with reagrd to seabed and foreshore?

I'm not entirely sure about the foreshore thing. I don't think they have been shafted there specifically, but I do think they generally got a pretty raw deal a lot of the time.

I work with a lot of Maori, and I know many of them feel quite passionate about the foreshore and seabed issue, however others think it's a waste of time.

It something I know very little about generally. And I am not entirely sure where to look to get a fair idea of the whole situation. The other guy I am working with just edited a story about the hikoi, maybe I could check that out and see what I can learn :)

I'm just hoping James has a good idea about it...

[Zoot]

noodle boy?

Happy. Happy Noodle Boy. If you know what I mean.

Meanwhile, Sycophant's other name is "Girth". You do the math. WAIT TILL SHABADOO GETS HERE.

[Zoot]

I get the vague impression that some of the people claiming to represent Maori as a whole are often representing iwis, which themselves act in the manner of large corporations. The Foreshore and Seabed legislation is a big cultural issue, but also a big business issue, as there is a lot of money made from the foreshore and seabed, and a lot of money to be made in the future. How Joe Urban Maori benefits from this stand on his behalf is a bit hazy to me.

But, as I say, I don't know anything.

[Petra]

I agree that throughout history they have been shafted a lot, and that they must have some course for redress - which I believe they now do, for the most part. But there is still things that need to be worked through.

But I also think that as NZ'ers we need to protect the the seabed and foreshore as collective land for all NZ'ers. And we must take very good care of that land and sea - for the sake of us all.


Can't have all those damned rich celebs buying up all our best bits and building fortresses to keep us out. Fuck 'em, I say. If they can buy up, then we all lose - Maori and Pakeha, alike.

[Petra]

noodle boy?

Happy. Happy Noodle Boy. If you know what I mean.

Meanwhile, Sycophant's other name is "Girth". You do the math. WAIT TILL SHABADOO GETS HERE.


LOL.

Well, as long as you're happy. :wink: :D

[Sycophant]

By the way, do you know the couple that have Hula-Haka Television Productions in Rotorua - Mike Jonathon and Nevak Ilolahia? I'm pretty sure they do a lot of work for Maori television.

Well technically I don't work for Maori Television, I work for a post-production company that is contracted to edit a series for MTS, so I am not all that familiar with the whole Maori TV scene, although I recognise the company's name. It's possible I worked very briefly on a series they did late laste year.

[Petra]

I get the vague impression that some of the people claiming to represent Maori as a whole are often representing iwis, which themselves act in the manner of large corporations. The Foreshore and Seabed legislation is a big cultural issue, but also a big business issue, as there is a lot of money made from the foreshore and seabed, and a lot of money to be made in the future. How Joe Urban Maori benefits from this stand on his behalf is a bit hazy to me.

But, as I say, I don't know anything.

Yeah, it can get quite complicated, for sure.


But how have many Hone Maori benefitted from much of the money that goes there way, anyway?

Tainui, for example, threw a wobbly over highway improvements along the Waikato River - a very dangerous stretch of road - because of some frikkin Taniwha. But as soon as they were paid $3mil, the Taniwha swam off. Funny, that.

Now that money gets to very few of the tribe - the fat cats still keep it, buying ever bigger Remuera tractors, etc. They do put some back in to the people, but not enough to benefit many young Maori.

As far as I know, their scholarships are the same as Ngati Whakaue's, and Tainui is a LOT richer.

Plus, Tainui weren't exactly fair to other tribes, either, in the past - they did plenty of dirty to the Coromandel Maori, for example.


I really need to get Tina in here - she knows her shit with regard to all this stuff. She totally blew my old flatmate, Mohi, away when after he told her where he grew up, she told him all about his relatives, history, land, everything. She was bang on.

I definitely need to get her in here.

[Petra]

Well technically I don't work for Maori Television, I work for a post-production company that is contracted to edit a series for MTS, so I am not all that familiar with the whole Maori TV scene, although I recognise the company's name. It's possible I worked very briefly on a series they did late laste year.

Well, if you bump into 'em, say Petra from Rotorua says hi. They're cool people, and I hope their company is doing well. :)


Lets' see...who else....how about Campbell Farqhuar? (Not quite sure how that's spelled). Or Tim Gordon?


Anyway, what's the series?

I totally loved that Motuku series that was on a while back. Nice and spooky. I love that stuff. :cool:

[Zoot]

Well, go, get her : ) I'm very keen to learn.


Syco, I'm heading down now. See you in an hour.


As for Shabadoo - Godfather - he'll join this discussion tomorrow morning.

[Petra]

Cool. :)


G'night, guys - have fun. :)

[livius drusus]

Man, the night shift around here can get downright chatty. Keep it up, :kiwibird:.

[Godfather]

I think the NZ public - Maori and Pakeha - have been shafted, because they have been cynically manipulated by two opposing groups whose concern for the foreshore and seabed is purely financial: business groups on one hand, and iwi on the other. Actually, that's really just one group with two different faces on. I was really hoping to see it end up as public domain. That seemed like the best way of guaranteeing that everyone who counts - in my view, the vast majority of NZers who have no financial interest in the foreshore - retains the rights which, until a few years ago, they felt they could take for granted. For most Pakeha, this simply means the right to take the kids to the beach without having to ask permission or pay for the privilege. For Maori, it's also about access, albeit of a much more profound nature, involving deeper cultural ties, traditional usage rights and the duty of guardianship (kaitiakiatanga is something Pakeha could learn to take more pride in, too, incidentally). Crown ownership obviously doesn't mean that those rights are about to be taken away by faceless developers, but it does make that less unlikely.

As for the position of Maori in general, that's a pretty enormous issue, and I'm not qualified to make too many declarative statements. One thing that I will say is that the recent explosion of Maori language and culture is one of the reasons NZ is a better place to live than it has ever been before. And the people and organisations driving it are not the ones getting rich from it. Economically, there's still a long way to go before Maori are getting a fair deal, but it will happen eventually. But for that to happen, I think we need a few more John Tamiheres and a few less Titewhai Harawiras.

[Petra]

I thought that is was made public domain?

I think I'm missing something.


Godfather, can you give us a brief of what the deal is? I'm so out of touch with that one - it all flew by me while I was busy looking at US and ME politics, and I haven't caught up yet.



I agree with you regarding Kaitiakitanga.

[Godfather]

Labour's original policy was that the seabed and foreshore would be vested in to the ownership of the NZ public, and the Crown would be responsible for regulating its use. I think the only way they could get enough support for the bill was to change this to actual Crown ownership. That brought NZ First on board, but not National (even though it is exactly in line with what National said their policy was - I guess policy isn't as important to them as opposing the Government no matter what). It seems like a small distinction, and it probably is. But my feeling is that in any disagreement over ownership, if you can remove the possibility of ownership, you remove the disagreement. I guess that makes me an even bigger socialist than I usually admit.

[Petra]

Oh, man, I'm much more socialist and would like to see the re-nationalising of assests such as forestry, energy, public works, etc.

I've found a bunch of links ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22NZ+foreshore+and+seabed+controversy%22&btnG=Search ), and I suppose I should start reading.


Thanks for the reply. :)