Between a Rock and Hard Spot

[BracesForImpact]

I'd like to solicit some advice from some people here if I may.

Some quick background:

As some of you may remember, my son came to live with me last October, after staying with his mother for a few years. My son is emotionally and mentally disabled. He has been diagnosed with a variety of different mental problems, including Bipolar, ADHD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, and a couple of others I can't remember at the moment.

My son has always been a bit, well, odd, to tell the truth. Before he went to live with his mother, I had myself and he in counseling, and after the many tests they performed on him at that time, they basically said that he has a slightly different view of reality than is the norm. In other words, unspecified. Emotionally and mentally he is several years behind the curve. He is easily led, and gullible, although his IQ is on the low end of average. He becomes bored very easily, and he's pretty hyper. Despite my best efforts to date, critical thinking does not come easily to him. He easily annoys peers, and has trouble making friends and keeping them. We've also had a lot of problems with honesty and some criminal behavior. He's currently 15 years old, by the way.

During the stay with his mother he suffered physical, emotional and sexual abuse which only made his problems worse. Unfortunately, one of the other problems he was straddled with was religion. My ex-wife had joined a fundamentalist church (the type that burns Harry Potter books, for example) and actually tried to have him exorcised a couple of times.

Since coming to live with me, we've certainly had our share of problems, but with the help of some wonderful state agencies, and providing a stable and safe environment, we've made some progress with my son. He's been in and out of a few treatment and correctional centers, but it seems like we're finally going forward. At least, I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.

Now he wants to go to church.

My girlfriend and I are atheists, and of course we do not attend church. Between social pressure here in our little town, and all the people in the various correctional and treatment centers he's been in, my son has the idea firmly locked in his head that "good people" go to church, and that church provides a moral framework and can help people act better and make better decisions.

For a few years now, I have really tried to encourage and stimulate critical thinking in my son, and I can pretty much tell ya, so far I'm having little to no effect. It's hard enough fighting his condition, but when you are also up against his peers, relatives, and most of society it seems a virtually impossible task.

Since he is 15, I don't think outright forbidding him to go to church is a very good idea. There's also the possibility that by forbidding him attending, I push him in exactly the direction I don't want him to go. I tried to compromise with him to an extent by suggesting a Unitarian church, but he wants a Christian church. Not to mention any Unitarian churches are quite a distance from us. Thus far I have agreed to let him attend services as long as I approve the church first. Basically, I don't want him going to a fundamentalist variety, or a church that preaches hate (against homosexuals for instance) or puts a large emphasis on the doctrine of hell. This narrows down the possibilities considerably, I know.

I am actually quite nervous about this. My son is 15 years old, and I still have to clarify whether certain things on television are real or not, and I often have to dispel this or that urban myth my son brings to my attention. It just seems to me that he is the perfect subject for the indoctrination of some very bad ideas. At the same time, I think he is old enough to start making decisions for himself.

So, what do you think of my solution? Does anyone have any advice, suggestions, etc?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[seebs]

Quakers or UUs.

There are lots of other goood folks, but it's harder to tell without more involvement.

Neither will insist that he actually believe anything in particular, or harass him.

I go to a Quaker church, and we have non-theists at our church. I don't know how many or how few, because no one cares enough to make a thing of it. You don't have to assent to any creed to serve in any capacity you feel called to.

It works really well.

BTW, the normal advice before letting your kid go to a church is to talk to the pastor. Quaker groups don't have one. If you have concerns, you could raise them with the ministry and council committee, who could have a couple of people talk to you (and probably your son as well) to address your concerns.

To give you a perspective on Quaker attitudes about gays: While there are probably Quakers who are personally convicted against gay sex, our church has been performing gay marriages for twenty years. God hasn't complained, and we recognize no other authority.

[Javaman]

Umm... I'm not really sure here but, of the churches that I've attended with friends and knowing lots of people from different creeds, I'd perhaps suggest checking out a Lutheran church. You should have pretty many in your area. That also might be my 'Prairie Home Companion' listening habits speaking, though so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Perhaps you could give him a short 'World Religions' home course and then spend some time getting his opinion on which ones he'd like to check out. I'm of the opinion that the more one knows about the diversity of supernatural belief, the less one might lean toward any fundamentalist-type belief system.

[BracesForImpact]

Originally posted by Javaman:
Perhaps you could give him a short 'World Religions' home course and then spend some time getting his opinion on which ones he'd like to check out. I'm of the opinion that the more one knows about the diversity of supernatural belief, the less one might lean toward any fundamentalist-type belief system.

Yeah, I agree. This is something we do now and then. He really doesn't even seem to have much interest in other religions, but I continue to expose them to him irregardless.

Seebs, thanks for the suggestions. The UU churches are pretty far and we're financially constrained, but I had forgotten about Quakers. I wouldn't have any objection to that. I'll have to look around for those and see if there are any around here. Good suggestion.

[seebs]

The FGC Quakers have a thing called "quaker finder" that can point you at nearby meetings.

[maddog]

I take my aunt to a Church of the Bretheren. It's an anabaptist sect, allied with Mennonites and Amish, a "plain" sensibility, but they all wear regular clothes, drive cars, use electricity, and all that. Some congregations can be pretty hellfire, I guess, but the one my aunt attends is pretty feel-good, and sociable. It's non-charismatic.

#1054

[freemonkey]

Maybe what your son is looking for is some kind of structured social outlet, with "pre-approved" activities and "pre-approved" friends. Or maybe he's looking to recapture some good feeling he had with his old church that isn't necessarily religious.

Is there some other sort of group or activity in the area you could look into that might provide something like that for him?

[Tanda]

BFI, I have a lot of respect for your perspective and the ways in which you are trying to help your son. I don't have any useful advice, but I do wish you luck.

[LadyShea]

My mom was a liberal Christian and went to a Presbyterian church, I think. Most are pretty mild mannered. I don't think most Methodists and/or Episcopalians are fundy either.

The Baptists are the most extremeist of the mainstream Protestants and then of course the total loony charismatics and Pentacostals and Church of Christ, etc.

[yguy]

For a few years now, I have really tried to encourage and stimulate critical thinking in my son, and I can pretty much tell ya, so far I'm having little to no effect.

"Critical thinking", if it has any value, is not something which needs to be inculcated, but which develops by itself, as long as the person can admit being wrong; and anyone who has spent any amount of time on forums knows that lack of such capacity is often displayed by adults at the upper end of the bell curve.

I thought professional rasslin' was real up until I was 12 or 13. On the one hand, I wanted to believe it; and on the other hand, I didn't like who was telling me otherwise. In my case that was my mother, and I had plenty of good reasons to dislike her. In your case, even if there's nothing wrong with you as a dad, your ex has almost certainly prejudiced your son against you, unintentionally or otherwise.

I am actually quite nervous about this. My son is 15 years old, and I still have to clarify whether certain things on television are real or not, and I often have to dispel this or that urban myth my son brings to my attention. It just seems to me that he is the perfect subject for the indoctrination of some very bad ideas. At the same time, I think he is old enough to start making decisions for himself.

You cannot have it both ways. If he lacks the capacity to avoid being gulled, it doesn't matter how old he is.

[lisarea]

I don't have much in the way of advice, except that the phrase "open and affirming" is a sort of secret password to gay-friendly churches, or so I have heard. It's sometimes even shortened to O&A, apparently.

[LadyShea]

Is the UCC (United Church of Christ) different than CoC (Church of Christ)? UCC is "Open and Affirming" apparently but that doesn't jibe with anything I have heard about CoC.


The United Church of Christ seeks to be Multiracial Multicultural, Open and Affirming, and Accessible to All - A Church where everyone is welcome!

In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, in all things charity. The unity that we seek requires neither an uncritical acceptance of any point of view, nor rigid formulation of doctrine. It does require mutual understanding and agreement as to which aspects of the Christian faith and life are essential.

http://www.ucc.org/index.php

They sound aight to me.

[SharonDee]

Is the UCC (United Church of Christ) different than CoC (Church of Christ)?Very different. I know next to nothing about the UCC but reading your excerpt tells me they are nothing alike.

The unity that we seek requires neither an uncritical acceptance of any point of view, nor rigid formulation of doctrine.
Definitely no relation to the CoC. They've had fights over the importance of doctrine vs. diversity, even "disfellowshipping" congregations that try to be more welcoming than rigid.

[Plant Woman]

I sometimes go to a Medicine Wheel meetings at an United Church of Christ. This is a Native American teachings. So I think the UCC is pretty open about different belief systems, or lack thereof, yet still considered Christian.

I feel for your son and what he went through with your ex. I would never in a million years would let my child get involved in a fundy church. And for your concern about easily being led, that would be the last place, as they prey on people like that. Scary lot.

I think Seebs idea is good too about the Quakers. You might also call one of the UU churches and see if there may be one that meets in a community center near you. We have a couple like that around this area. I also encourage you to go with your son as you might find you like the UU or Quakers for social reasons and might help further connect you with your son. Most of all you can find out about the people in the group.

[LadyShea]

The more I read the more I like this UCC. They even have special support and outreach for the mentally ill

WHEREAS, serious mental illnesses?such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder (manic depression), unipolar disorder (clinical depression), obsessive/compulsive disorder, panic anxiety disorder are biological brain disorders and need to be treated as any other biologically based medical problem of any other organ of the body;

More and more fundies consider mental illness "demons" or some such.

They have congregations all over your area. Sounds like a good place to check out

[godfry n. glad]

I take my aunt to a Church of the Bretheren. It's an anabaptist sect, allied with Mennonites and Amish, a "plain" sensibility, but they all wear regular clothes, drive cars, use electricity, and all that. Some congregations can be pretty hellfire, I guess, but the one my aunt attends is pretty feel-good, and sociable. It's non-charismatic.

#1054


Really? I thought the Bretheren had been subsumed into the United Methodists. Yes, they have very similar simplistic lifestyle beliefs as to the Mennonites (who they are closer to than the Amish). My mother was a member of the United Bretheren growing up, but there were no congregations out here in the west.

Quakers are great. The Unitarians are great. However, if he wants a label that clearly says they are "christian", I'd say the UCC (United Church of Christ) is probably a good bet. There is no authority beyond that of the congregation (and they are descendants of New England Congregationalists...i.e., the Puritans). The Unitarians, interestingly, are the spiritual descendants of the Pilgrims. The UCC has been influenced by Unitarianism, Arminianism and transcendantalism. They allow female clergy, married clergy and, by and large, recognize homosexual relationships as valid. They should be a whole lot easier to find than either Unitarians or Society of Friends (Quakers)....

I don't think he'd be happy with a traditional Quaker meeting, in a meeting hall. They tend to have no clergy and go in for hour-long meditation sessions, where anyone "moved by the spirit" to speak, may. That'd be a bit much for anyone with an attention deficit disorder.



(P.S. - My gf is an inactive member of the UCC.)'

ETA: Wow...multiple cross-posts! NO! UCC is not CoC. UCC is the Congregationalists. These are the folks the Unitarians broke off from.

[BracesForImpact]

Thank you for the replies everyone, I will definitely check out some of these suggestions. Also thanks for the support.

Originally posted by Yguy:
"Critical thinking", if it has any value, is not something which needs to be inculcated, but which develops by itself, as long as the person can admit being wrong; and anyone who has spent any amount of time on forums knows that lack of such capacity is often displayed by adults at the upper end of the bell curve.


I disagree. I don't believe thinking about thinking comes naturally to most people. It is something that must be cultivated. A quick look at the world seems to bear me out here. Also, it most certainly has value in my opinion.

It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder regarding online forums. I would suggest it would be in better taste to bring those concerns up in a thread where someone isn't asking for advice and support. Especially when it is totally unrelated to the topic. It only serves to make you look crass, frankly.

[yguy]

It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder regarding online forums.

May I take it that jumping to conclusions is one of the techniques you are teaching your son as you endeavor to "cultivate" your son's "critical thinking abilities"?

I would suggest it would be in better taste to bring those concerns up in a thread where someone isn't asking for advice and support. Especially when it is totally unrelated to the topic.

It is related to the topic, whether you recognize it or not.

It only serves to make you look crass, frankly.

You ain't seen nothin' yet, pilgrim. :)

[Sock Puppet]

It only serves to make you look crass, frankly.

You ain't seen nothin' yet, pilgrim. :)
There, finally yguy says something that I can agree with.

[BracesForImpact]

Originally posted by Yguy:
May I take it that jumping to conclusions is one of the techniques you are teaching your son as you endeavor to "cultivate" your son's "critical thinking abilities"?


Very, very low. You should be more careful, your religious love is starting to show.

Incidentally, no that's not what I teach my son. I teach my son to observe, draw conclusions, think about his own bias, and draw his conclusions again. Much Like I did with you here. For example, I read your many posts on this forum, I discern a general attitude from them. I read your comment to my post here, I rethink the possibility that perhaps I'm being over sensitive due to the nature of my OP and my closeness to the subject, and then I still draw a conclusion that you are being an ass.

[quiet bear]

Well, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but have you asked your son what he believes? I mean, I know what he's been 'taught', but I'd get eye to eye with him and say 'What do you think?'

Sometimes, the wheels are turning underneath, and a person may not express what they think simply because it's not what they're 'supposed' to think, you know?

[yguy]

Originally posted by Yguy:
May I take it that jumping to conclusions is one of the techniques you are teaching your son as you endeavor to "cultivate" your son's "critical thinking abilities"?


Very, very low. You should be more careful, your religious love is starting to show.

And exactly what religion do those finely honed critical thinking skills of yours tell you I'm an adherent of?

Incidentally, no that's not what I teach my son. I teach my son to observe, draw conclusions, think about his own bias, and draw his conclusions again. Much Like I did with you here. For example, I read your many posts on this forum, I discern a general attitude from them. I read your comment to my post here, I rethink the possibility that perhaps I'm being over sensitive due to the nature of my OP and my closeness to the subject, and then I still draw a conclusion that you are being an ass.

But your original, more specific contention was that I posted what I did - which you interestingly isolated from the rest of my original post - because I had "a chip on my shoulder" about other forums. On that score, you may rest assured that your "critical thinking" process resulted in an error.

Incidentally, you don't let your son listen to rap because you're a "nice dad". You do it because you care less about his welfare than you do about his good opinion of you. How's that for crass? :)

[quiet bear]

There's no need for that. C'mon.

[D. Scarlatti]

As my good buddy Annabel Lee would say, like an Old Testament prophet sitting beside his pile of rocks.

[Who Knows?]

I think if you honestly level with your child and tell him what your reservations are about potentially subjecting oneself to those with a hidden agenda, he may understand and reconsider his position. Sometimes, in my own quest not to shape my 15-year-old son's perceptions, I am hesitant to share what I believe, and I find him looking to others for a ready answer. Thus, he is deprived of what I consider to be my hard-won perspective. I would hate for him to have to suffer the substantial disillusionment I went through by buying into all that religion offers.

On the total opposite side, however (since I can't seem to ever stay on one side of a problem), my personal experience from high school was that there were plenty of people (even in the fundie group to which we belonged) who were kind, caring, compassionate, open, honest, and basically good role models. They weren't abusive, just misled (imho).

On another (third?) side, I would be curious to learn if there was, in fact, one special friend (or that friend's zealous parent) who has been coaxing your son to go to church. If so, that can be handled more directly. Since he's gullible, just tell him they're Martians. (---kidding.)

Best of luck in your journey.

[BracesForImpact]

Originally posted by Yguy:
And exactly what religion do those finely honed critical thinking skills of yours tell you I'm an adherent of?


Perhaps dogmatic would have been a better word.

But your original, more specific contention was that I posted what I did - which you interestingly isolated from the rest of my original post - because I had "a chip on my shoulder" about other forums. On that score, you may rest assured that your "critical thinking" process resulted in an error.


Hardly. Your vitriol is largely apparent in virtually every post you make, mostly because people don't subscribe to your crackpot assertions. You're a tiny little insecure prick with a superiority complex who has a case of brass balls and a hard on sitting in front of his screen. You're one the lowest forms of life, an internet whore. I can only conclude that you do this here because in real life people don't like being around you, or because you're a quiet insecure little prick who doesn't dare voice his real opinions in public because he knows what a reaction it will bring.

Incidentally, you don't let your son listen to rap because you're a "nice dad". You do it because you care less about his welfare than you do about his good opinion of you. How's that for crass?

Since you know next to nothing about myself, my son, or my parenting skills, your statement is merely a reflection upon you. If for some reason I did put a higher priority on my son's opinion of me than I did about his welfare (if only you knew, heh heh) in the scheme of things I'd still feel superior to the unevolved speck of protoplasm you represent.

[BracesForImpact]

Well, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but have you asked your son what he believes? I mean, I know what he's been 'taught', but I'd get eye to eye with him and say 'What do you think?'

Sometimes, the wheels are turning underneath, and a person may not express what they think simply because it's not what they're 'supposed' to think, you know?

Sure, I understand. We've spoken about it before. I think in many ways he's not sure what he believes. He does have a fear of death, and has admitted that the possibilty of an afterlife is very alluring to him. These are hard facts for a kid, so I try to be supportive about it. He finds nature's complexity convincing evidence for god as well. More than anything, I think he's feeling the pressure from our society to be a Christian, to belong, and to be liked, just as we all do.

[yguy]

Since you know next to nothing about myself, my son, or my parenting skills,

I know what I need to know. Your son, according to you, is easily gulled. You think yourself a good guy for letting him listen to gutteral filth which can only exacerbate and/or capitalize on that weakness. Therefore, the best that can be said about you as a parent is that you have your head up your ass.

If for some reason I did put a higher priority on my son's opinion of me than I did about his welfare (if only you knew, heh heh) in the scheme of things I'd still feel superior to the unevolved speck of protoplasm you represent.

Yes, I'm sure you feel superior to a great many people. Angry people always do. Problem is, they have to stay angry to maintain the feeling of superiority...and in the end, that's a killer.

[D. Scarlatti]

Well, BFI, for all your son's reported social problems, at least yguy makes him look like Dale Carnegie in comparison.

[quiet bear]

Yes, I'm sure you feel superior to a great many people. Angry people always do. Problem is, they have to stay angry to maintain the feeling of superiority...and in the end, that's a killer.


Oh, man, and I left my Irony Police badge in my locker at work.

Citizen's arrest! Citizen's arrest!

[BracesForImpact]

Yes, I'm sure you feel superior to a great many people. Angry people always do. Problem is, they have to stay angry to maintain the feeling of superiority...and in the end, that's a killer.


Oh, man, and I left my Irony Police badge in my locker at work.

Citizen's arrest! Citizen's arrest!

Ha! Ha! You beat me to it!

[BracesForImpact]

Well, BFI, for all your son's reported social problems, at least yguy makes him look like Dale Carnegie in comparison.

Thanks! He has his problems, but like I said, We're all making progress. He certainly has his positive attributes. He's creative, loving, and he certainly doesn't go out of his way to offend people.

[Tanda]

Yguy, you're back on my shit list, you self-righteous prick. Do us all a favor and take a hammer to your keyboard. :asskick:

[lisarea]

So I was thinking about this, and trying to remember what 15 year olds are like a little bit. They're almost all pretty gullible, really. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you can avoid it. (I know. Worrying doesn't work like that, but maybe try?) And 15 or no, people never come around just like that. They change their ideas and opinions slowly, over time. Maybe some day, you'll be surprised to see the things you've been teaching your son sink in months or years later.

I'd bet on it, in fact.

And him asking to go to church is a good thing. Apart from what you think of his conclusions and how he reached them, it means that he's trying. He wants to do the right things, and he wants to improve himself. That's what's really important, and you can encourage his willingness to do that by being there for him and helping him. Maybe a more open, moderate church is just the right thing for him right now, to help steer him in the right direction and help him understand some of the nuance out there. Whether he ends up a Christian or not, he should be aware of the range of beliefs and the options available to him. Makes things a little less polar.

And I don't really know anything about churches and such, and I've never even really been to a church service, but maybe it could provide some inroads to talk about things with him that he wants to talk about. Go with him, maybe take him out for brunch or something afterwards, and talk about the sermon or whatever. Because it's something he initiated, maybe he'll be a little more open and interested in talking about abstractions and nuances than he might be otherwise.

Overall, I think he'll be OK. The important things are that he wants to work on his problems, and that you want to help him.

[BracesForImpact]

So I was thinking about this, and trying to remember what 15 year olds are like a little bit. They're almost all pretty gullible, really. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you can avoid it. (I know. Worrying doesn't work like that, but maybe try?) And 15 or no, people never come around just like that. They change their ideas and opinions slowly, over time. Maybe some day, you'll be surprised to see the things you've been teaching your son sink in months or years later.

I'd bet on it, in fact.

And him asking to go to church is a good thing. Apart from what you think of his conclusions and how he reached them, it means that he's trying. He wants to do the right things, and he wants to improve himself. That's what's really important, and you can encourage his willingness to do that by being there for him and helping him. Maybe a more open, moderate church is just the right thing for him right now, to help steer him in the right direction and help him understand some of the nuance out there. Whether he ends up a Christian or not, he should be aware of the range of beliefs and the options available to him. Makes things a little less polar.

And I don't really know anything about churches and such, and I've never even really been to a church service, but maybe it could provide some inroads to talk about things with him that he wants to talk about. Go with him, maybe take him out for brunch or something afterwards, and talk about the sermon or whatever. Because it's something he initiated, maybe he'll be a little more open and interested in talking about abstractions and nuances than he might be otherwise.

Overall, I think he'll be OK. The important things are that he wants to work on his problems, and that you want to help him.

Yeah, you make some good points, all of which I agree with. I'm not expecting him to make some big turn around in record time. If my son ends up a Christian, that's fine too. To tell the truth, I wouldn't prefer it, but he's my son and I love him. It's my hope that things will sink in over time.

Last night I instituted a new "family time" idea. each Friday, one of us takies a turn coming up with a topic for discussion, and we all talk about it. This week is his turn. I'm interested to see what he comes up with!

[Angakuk]

Perhaps I ought to stand up and second Javaman's recommendation of the Lutheran church, but I won't. Even the most socially liberal Lutherans have a strong doctrinal foundation, and it sounds like you would like to avoid that. UCC might be a good option for you, with one caveat. Because the UCC has a strong congregational polity there is considerable variation among congregations. You might also consider the Episcopal church, particularly if your son is attracted to the ritual and ceremony as well as the fellowship aspect of church. UCC churches are more non-liturgical and, given his prior experience, might seem more familiar to him in the way they do church. Presbyterian and Methodist would be somewhere in between UCC and Lutheran/Episcopal on the liturgy scale. I would suggest that you make a list of the churches you find least objectionable and then do some church shopping. I think, for your purposes, it would be essential to attend some services with him, just to get a sense of the flavor of that particular congregation. Now, if you want him to be exposed to the true exposition of Christianity, then, by all means, go Lutheran (though not the Wisconsin or Missouri Synod versions). Seriously though, I think you would also want to take a close look the church's youth program, as that is where he is most likely to find the kind of socialization that he appears to need help with.

Best wishes and best of luck in dealing with a very challenging parenting situation.

[Angakuk]

Really? I thought the Bretheren had been subsumed into the United Methodists.
Actually, there are quite a few different Brethren churches, not all of them related. In fact, there is even a Church of the Lutheran Brethren.