Omnimax god and enlightenment of man

[beyelzu]

I agree that the case as made by dantonac is indeed a false dichotomy, because he assumed an omnimax god that wanted man to be enlightened. Any third option that you propose will run afoul of one of those two conditions.

I didn't see it that way at the time and I still don't. I believed in an omnimax God who wanted people to be enlightened, but it didn't therefore follow that he would inject Ultimate Truth on Everything into the people who wrote the Bible. In fact, that kind of control freak editing would have struck me as more of a fundamentalist God's thing than the nice guy I believed in.

Besides, why would the Bible be the sole source of enlightenment? I saw evidence of God in all kinds of things. I experienced a genuine feeling of grace on a rollercoaster once and even though my friends chuckled at it, it meant a great deal to me.
But shouldnt the existence of such a god be obvious to anyone looking for him. It just seems to me that the omnimax god could make it obvious without violating freewill. Taking into account the mighty array of religious beliefs amongst xians, it seems to me that there are a fuckload of christians that have conflicting belief.

Plus should an omnimax god want his people to at least know what is moral?

[livius drusus]

Thanks for starting a new thread, bey.

But shouldnt the existence of such a god be obvious to anyone looking for him. It just seems to me that the omnimax god could make it obvious without violating freewill. Taking into account the mighty array of religious beliefs amongst xians, it seems to me that there are a fuckload of christians that have conflicting belief.

Well, that's the thing. People are so different, come from so many different backgrounds, operate on so many different assumptions that I don't see how any one thing could make God's existence obvious to everybody. What we have is a vast pile of information which we all parse differently; hence the many varieties of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and whatever other religions include a belief in an omnimax deity.

Short of God blanketing every brain on the globe with some kind of theological napalm - which would naturally violate everyone's intellectual integrity and individuality, aka, free will - I don't see how any information could be presented in such a way as to ensure identical beliefs.

Plus should an omnimax god want his people to at least know what is moral?

What if he thinks there are many different ways to be moral?

[beyelzu]

Thanks for starting a new thread, bey.

But shouldnt the existence of such a god be obvious to anyone looking for him. It just seems to me that the omnimax god could make it obvious without violating freewill. Taking into account the mighty array of religious beliefs amongst xians, it seems to me that there are a fuckload of christians that have conflicting belief.

Well, that's the thing. People are so different, come from so many different backgrounds, operate on so many different assumptions that I don't see how any one thing could make God's existence obvious to everybody. What we have is a vast pile of information which we all parse differently; hence the many varieties of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and whatever other religions include a belief in an omnimax deity.

Short of God blanketing every brain on the globe with some kind of theological napalm - which would naturally violate everyone's intellectual integrity and individuality, aka, free will - I don't see how any information could be presented in such a way as to ensure identical beliefs.

someone at II once posted that a bible that anyone could read regardless of language and couldnt be mistranslated would be pretty badass proof. Do you think such a thing would be theological napalm? Is it possible that you arent thinking of many of the possibilities that could be used by an omnimax god.

Plus should an omnimax god want his people to at least know what is moral?

What if he thinks there are many different ways to be moral?
I dont know, it seems to me that an omnimax god means objective morality.

[livius drusus]

someone at II once posted that a bible that was anyone could read regardless of language and couldnt be mistranslated would be pretty badass proof.

Proof? We're talking about proving the existence of an omnimax God here? I thought we were talking about whether it's possible to have an omnimax God who wants people's enlightenment and still have an imperfect scripture. Those aren't really the same discussion, imo.

Do you think such a hinkg would be theological napalm?

No, but I don't think there is such a thing as a book that can be read regardless of language and can't be mistranslated. Assuming the individuality of human beings, varied interpretation seems to follow.

What if he thinks there are many different ways to be moral?
I dont know, it seems to me that an omnimax god means objective morality.

Is it possible that you arent thinking of many of the possibilities that could be used by an omnimax god? :)

[beyelzu]

someone at II once posted that a bible that was anyone could read regardless of language and couldnt be mistranslated would be pretty badass proof.

Proof? We're talking about proving the existence of an omnimax God here? I thought we were talking about whether it's possible to have an omnimax God who wants people's enlightenment and still have an imperfect scripture. Those aren't really the same discussion, imo.
I meant that such a book would provide proof of existence for people who would then embrace the teachings in the book and achieve enlightenment.


No, but I don't think there is such a thing as a book that can be read regardless of language and can't be mistranslated. Assuming the individuality of human beings, varied interpretation seems to follow.

well, that is why such a book would be miraculous and oviously divine in nature. Even if interpretations were varied, as they most assuredly would be, we would all start from a similar point theologically.

Is it possible that you arent thinking of many of the possibilities that could be used by an omnimax god? :)
harsh :tmgrin: I wonder though, if an omnimax all good god creates or allows subjective morality then isnt allgood kind of a meaningless term?

I am very glad that we took this conversation to another thread.


random obvservation, I am watching an old outer limits on scifi with adam west. I cant watch him without thinking of campy batman.

[livius drusus]

I meant that such a book would provide proof of existence for people who would then embrace the teachings in the book and achieve enlightenment.

Why does proof of existence have to be the first step? What if enlightenment and complete, irrefutable, 6 billion people totally agree proof are mutually exclusive? What if it's not really enlightenment without an individual experiential voyage?

It just seems to me that the issue of one perfect book that nobody has any doubts about is one of those atheist constructs like can God create a rock he can't lift. It doesn't really work for me because it's more of a gotcha than an argument, and I don't think it does a very good job of explaining how an imperfect scripture and omnimax God cannot both exist.

well, that is why such a book would be miraculous and oviously divine in nature. Even if interpretations were varied, as they most assuredly would be, we would all start from a similar point theologically.

Perhaps. What are the odds that we would stay theologically similar? Someone is bound to write a competing book out of inspiration or greed or delusion or whatever. If not the Vedas, iow, then Battlefield Earth.

harsh :tmgrin: I wonder though, if an omnimax all good god creates or allows subjective morality then isnt allgood kind of a meaningless term?

I don't think so, no. Not if the God believes subjective morality to be a good. One thing's for sure, any God involved in this earth has to have a penchant for variety.


I am very glad that we took this conversation to another thread.

Most definite ditto. :tmhappy:

random obvservation, I am watching an old outer limits on scifi with adam west. I cant watch him without thinking of campy batman.

Neither can I. He is and always will be Batman. Although ever since I saw that E! True Hollywood Story, I also can't help but think of the extraordinary amounts of play that man got during his run as the Bat.

[slimshady2357]

random obvservation, I am watching an old outer limits on scifi with adam west. I cant watch him without thinking of campy batman.

Neither can I. He is and always will be Batman. Although ever since I saw that E! True Hollywood Story, I also can't help but think of the extraordinary amounts of play that man got during his run as the Bat.

Campy Batman has been replaced with Mayor of Quahog in Family Guy, for me. :D

Now, what is an Omnimax God? (I know I could look it up, but now I'm involved in the thread :wave: )

Adam

[livius drusus]

Campy Batman has been replaced with Mayor of Quahog in Family Guy, for me. :D

Clearly you haven't seen enough reruns of Batman, then. :wink:

Now, what is an Omnimax God? (I know I could look it up, but now I'm involved in the thread :wave: )

It's shorthand for an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-benevolent deity. (No problem, Adam; it's great to see you again. :wave:)

[slimshady2357]

Clearly you haven't seen enough reruns of Batman, then. :wink:

Recently, yes :( But whoooooooooooooooooooo boy have I seen a lot of that series :D I love it, though you just can't find it here :deepsigh:

It's shorthand for an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-benevolent deity. (No problem, Adam; it's great to see you again. :wave:)

Ahhhh! Well, that makes sense.

And good to be seen, but I should be checking this board more often :blush3:

Adam

[livius drusus]

Yes, she said, nodding her head sagaciously. Yes you should. Or I shall be forced to :spank:.



Man, I don't use that adorable spanking smiley anywhere near enough.

[JoeP]

...
Or I shall be forced to :spank:.



Man, I don't use that adorable spanking smiley anywhere near enough.
Opinions differ on that point. You used it there, for example. I would have thought that would be enough.

[livius drusus]

Jealous, are you?