I need some help with chiroquackery

[beyelzu]

I got into a discussion about chiropractic with a friend of mine who worked for a chiropractor for several years. I told her that chiropractic was based on crap science. I know I have read some good threads on the subject and I plan to go look at jref and feel certain I will find some good shit.

But if anyone has some good articles for me let me know.

feel free to talk about chiropractic as well, pro or con.

[livius drusus]

Here's (http://www.chirobase.org/) a good skeptical site. I haven't looked into it much myself. :shrug:

[RedShift]

My first stop with questions like this is always Skeptic's Dictionary (http://skepdic.com/)

Always a good, clear (and fair) explanation of what it is and lots of good links. Here's what they say about chiro. (http://skepdic.com/chiro.html)

My understanding is that it might be fine for helping with basic back problems but all that subluxation stuff is unfounded and their claims about "life force" and so on heads into woo-woo territory.

[beyelzu]

thanks liv and redshift.

I own the skeptic's annotated dictionary, I forgot that there was a website.

She intends to take the information I send her to a chiropractor she knows and tell me his responses.

[beyelzu]

My first stop with questions like this is always Skeptic's Dictionary (http://skepdic.com/)

Always a good, clear (and fair) explanation of what it is and lots of good links. Here's what they say about chiro. (http://skepdic.com/chiro.html)

My understanding is that it might be fine for helping with basic back problems but all that subluxation stuff is unfounded and their claims about "life force" and so on heads into woo-woo territory.
Thanks for the link, and I have the same understanding about chiropractic as you do.

[LadyShea]

Even Quackwatch admits chiropractic can be beneficial for muscular-skeletal issues. They have a chirporactor on staff. It's a good place to learn the arguments from both sides...quacks and non.

[beyelzu]

Even Quackwatch admits chiropractic can be beneficial for muscular-skeletal issues. They have a chirporactor on staff. It's a good place to learn the arguments from both sides...quacks and non.
actually, I did tell my friend that. I dont think that chiropractors have nothing to offer to people, I just dont think that it helps things like indigestion which she claimed and I dont think that it is a good idea to take children to one which she does believe.

[godfry n. glad]

As a result of several years of haulin' trash for a living, I became acquainted with a chiropractic student who was doing a study on "high risk" professions for back problems...I was a chiropractic guinea pig for his doctoral thesis.

I've been with the guy ever since. Over twenty years, now. Two or three times a year. I see him only when I experience spasms in my back muscles that I cannot rid myself of by exercise, heat and/or pain relievers. I've spoken with him about treatment, and he considers himself a "conservative" practitioner in that he treats only the spine and back. He doesn't even like to become involved with limbs, much less things like "life force" or digestion. He told me once, "Sure, I could tell you what you should be doing digestively, but that'd be malpractice."

I'll tell you, by having some adjustments, I've gone from being a bent, unhappy, uncomfortable crank in pain to a cheery, thankful, standin' tall and straight kinda guy. In less than twenty minutes. He uses heat and electrical pulse to treat before manual adjustment. He relieves pain...quickly.

I think the "alternative" nature of chiropractic puts it in company of a lot of homeopathic and naturopathic practitioners. Both use a lot of woo-woo. It rubs off on the mindset, if you catch my drift. But from what I can tell, osteopathic physicians, physical therapists and chiropractors use much of the same types of techniques.

So... I guess I'm for chiropractic, if its practice is contained to treatment for back pain. In those cases, chiropractic adjustment beats layin' about for a week on muscle relaxants. By far.

godfry

(p.s. - I just read the link. I've never, in more than twenty years, heard my chiropractor use the term "subluxation"....sounds weird.)

[Shake]

Chiropractic is a field that has a lot of variance. There are some who seem more educated about anatomy and are more like physical therapists, and then there are the new age-y types. I went to the same chiropracter's office that my father went to, but my mom went to someone different. The experience which my father and I had was very different to what my mother had. The one I saw did me lots of good after I'd gotten out of whack from fainting once upon a time.

Lots of people I know told me I should go back this past spring when I had my bout with sciatica. My PT told me early on that I should wait a while before going back since he didn't think it would be a good idea to be shoving things around if they were more out of place than was normal. I'd thought about going for a 'readjustment' once I was feeling better, but life intervened and I just haven't gotten around to it.

I've had good experiences with chiropractic, so I'd recommend it, provided one checks it out first.

[Dingfod]

I have my own theory about chiropractic and my current chiropractor somewhat agrees with me, but still wants me to come in every other week, but I don't. My theory is that going to a chiropractor often makes you need to go to a chiropractor more often. The reason I think this is, is the adjustments loosen up the spinal joints, making them get out of alignment more easily than joints that are tightened up a bit with time.

My backcracker in Salt Lake was a graduate of Life Chiropractic, Marietta, Georgia. He was one of those subluxation quacks. I told him on my first visit that I was looking for an old fashioned bonecracker and that my insurance didn't cover chiropractic (true). He agreed to treat me when I came in, which was like godfry, only when I felt like I needed an adjustment.... and he only charged me $10 a visit and never once talked to me about nutrition, vitamins, herbal supplements or any other woo-woo stuff he used on his insured and uninformed customers.

My backcracker's little brother worked at the clinic, scheduling appointments and conducting the initial consulation interviews that first summer I went there. He was a bright, personable young man, very likeable. But what happened with him is the thing that raised my eyebrows about the value of a "doctorate" at Life Chiropractic is that the little brother got admitted without any college degree. A couple of years later he was finished with Life University and practicing with his brother. "Doctor" indeed.

[maddog]

I have never had a quackerpractor treatment. I went with a friend once to a quackerpractor's office and waited while the treatment was performed. The waiting room was full of pamphlets that promised that quackerpractic was good for digestion, arms, legs, headaches, cancer, eyesight, bladder, bowels, etc. etc. Made me want to run the other way. :noway: was anybody that believed all that stuff going to touch me!!

#101

[beyelzu]

(p.s. - I just read the link. I've never, in more than twenty years, heard my chiropractor use the term "subluxation"....sounds weird.)
the chiropractor my friend worked for does use the term and believe that the shit causes indigestion and numbness in the fingers. and of course that the body can heal itself and that drugs dont help, more or less.

[godfry n. glad]

I have my own theory about chiropractic and my current chiropractor somewhat agrees with me, but still wants me to come in every other week, but I don't.

Yep...That's pretty much my behavior, too.

But I'll tell you, when you have those "I can't get up off the floor" back spasms...it's ham dandy having an adjustor readily available.

My backcracker's little brother worked at the clinic, scheduling appointments and conducting the initial consulation interviews that first summer I went there. He was a bright, personable young man, very likeable. But what happened with him is the thing that raised my eyebrows about the value of a "doctorate" at Life Chiropractic is that the little brother got admitted without any college degree. A couple of years later he was finished with Life University and practicing with his brother. "Doctor" indeed.

He was probably a "legacy". :wink:

My chiropractor - and backcracking is what I go for, too - is a former auto mechanic. I still joke with him about coming in for a "tune-up and alignment". But then, he had a college degree before....in philosophy, from NYU, I believe. He is now a graduate of Northwest Chiropractic College, here. I don't know their entrance standards or the rigor of their training, but he has done me well. I'm sure he doesn't live a sophisticated lifestyle, because he lives in the neighborhood. He and his partner share their offices with a licensed massage therapist, in the neighborhood. He doesn't have the status of a physician. I'd say he's more on par with a psychological social worker or psychiatric counsellor. Or...as already noted, a physical therapist.

As for frequency, I go for a weekly massage, which helps my back a bunch. It also gives me physical contact, for which I'm in withdrawal.

All in all, I consider my chiropractor as an ancillary health care provider. My primary is my family physician, followed by my nephrologist, my dermatologist, my therapist, and then my chiropractor. That's two MDs, a DO, a LCSW and a DC. My pharmacist and I are on first name basis; I see him more than all the others.

Aging and genes...


:qsigh:
godfry

[solidsquid]

Here's a Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_medicine

Skeptical Inquirer article from 2002:

York University recently rejected a merger with a chiropractic college. The deliberation process leading up to this decision illustrates how susceptible universities can be to overtures by colleges of alternative medicine. Lessons learned from this situation may prove helpful for institutions facing similar temptations in the future.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-01/u-struggle.html

About alternative medicine vs. traditional medicine:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-01/medicine-wars.html

Hope some of this helps in some way.

[livius drusus]

Hey, cool, squid is back. :hisign:

[solidsquid]

I've been away a while and been lurking lately, just trying to jump in some more now.

[RedShift]

In Penn and Teller's Bullshit the chiropractor boasts of manipulating the spine of hours old babies. That just gives me the creeps. :(

[beyelzu]

In Penn and Teller's Bullshit the chiropractor boasts of manipulating the spine of hours old babies. That just gives me the creeps. :(
the dude my friend worked for believes that such shit is a good thing. my friend insists that if she has children she will take them in for adjustment at a young age.

[godfry n. glad]

In Penn and Teller's Bullshit the chiropractor boasts of manipulating the spine of hours old babies. That just gives me the creeps. :(
the dude my friend worked for believes that such shit is a good thing. my friend insists that if she has children she will take them in for adjustment at a young age.

Wow.

That sounds pretty weird, man. Cult like. Gotta indoctrinate early.

I can see little or no need to take a child to a chiropractor, especially for something unspecified. Treatment following a traffic accident....maybe. Otherwise, I can't see a specific purpose. For treatment of muscle pain in my back, I see a chiropractor. He treats it, I feel better, I pay him. I return on occasion because I know it works for specific conditions.

To be frank, my total experience with chiropractors has been better than my total experience with physicians, and in particular, surgeons. I have more questions regarding physician ethics and efficacy than I have about chiropractors.

Of course, this probably arises from my good luck in easily finding a fairly low-key quack who's good at cracking back, but finding a decent, honest otorhinolaryngologist still alludes me. Having a physician who claimed to be the latter fuck up my hearing -permanently- and refuse to take responsibility for it rather slants my view of claims of what constitutes "quackery".

godfry

[Dingfod]

Huh? :wink:

I know just what you mean. I have permanent tinnitus in both ears the result of insufficient antibiotic response to my having ear infections in both ears at once.

My Salt Lake backcracker also treated babies and little children, but not mine.

[livius drusus]

It sounds to me like godfry's got one of those chiros that even the quackwatch sites give the thumbs up to. What a Rational Chiropractor Can Do for You (http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/goodchiro.html)

[godfry n. glad]

It sounds to me like godfry's got one of those chiros that even the quackwatch sites give the thumbs up to. What a Rational Chiropractor Can Do for You (http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/goodchiro.html)

Yep... That sounds like him, alright. I found out years into sporadic treatments that my chiropractor's family physician was my family physician, and that he treated other members of my family physician's practice, including a physician. I know that if my chiropractor found anything he thought important, he'd not only refer me to my own physician, he'd consult with my physician as well.

The critical phrase in the link above was about immediate relief. That's what chiropractic offers to the person in muscle pain of the back or neck. Going to a regular physician will get you a prescription for muscle relaxants and therapeutic advice to add heat, work it easily and slowly and give it time to heal. The relaxants make it difficult for me to do much of anything...even watch television. Work becomes a challenge to remain awake and on-task. Often it takes time off work. Go to the chiropractor and get immediate gratification in the form of no to very little pain in the twenty minute appointment, no muscle relaxants. That is the attraction of the chiropractor. My chiropractor, at least. He uses heat and electrical pulse to prep. He gives advice on stretching and working out and ergonomics. He nags me about getting more exercise and losing weight. He always ends by stating that if I need additional adjustments in the near future (if the treatment was not sufficient) then I should come back within the following week; I've only done that once in over 20 years.

In some circumstances, it's better than massage. But I'll agree, they treat much the same symptoms. My massage therapist will refer me to a chiropractor if she can't do the job. Chiropractor is covered by insurance (limited number of visits per year), masseusse is not. Charges are very similar per therapeutic session, but the chiropractor takes 1/3 to 1/2 of the time.

godfry

[Presence of the Passenger]

Subluxation is basically this:

You have various nerves and nerve endings that wrap, coil, and simply parallel your spinal cord. They enter the spacing between each vertebra also. When the vertebrae in your back become twisted, shifted, rotated, displaced, yatta yatta; the nerves and nerve endings can become effected. I.E. A pinched nerve.

It's a simple scientific description, but it is correct in its terminology.

You also have to remember why you get muscle spasms. It's not simply a misfiring of nerves; it's can also be attributed to the pinching of muscles, ligaments, and tendons. These can be compacted, stretched, torn, etc...by the vertebrae as well.



As for chiropractors being quacks: Luckily I don't have that problem. Known mine since we grew up together on the same block. Not to mention his chiropractor wife is great eye-candy. Though her whole thing about nursing a child till 5 is creepy.

[Dingfod]

AFAIK, in medical terminology, subluxation is just dislocation of a bone in a joint, pinched nerve or not. You can look it up if you want.

Chiropractors I've been to try to make it sound like nerves flow like blood or something, impinge the nerve and you get poor flow of nerve juice or some shit like that, causing all sorts of problems, poisonous disease-causing buildups, glandular malfunction, muscle soreness, and pain in pressure points. That is the shit that is all woo-woo.

Can they pop a subluxated joint back into place? Sometimes. I had a dislocated rib that was fixed in one visit. Can they cure allergies or kidney failure? Probably not any better than a placebo. Can anyone else do these treatments? Fukken-A. My sister is a DO, Osteopathic Physician, trained to do spinal manipulation. The difference is, no woo-woo, plus they get all those years and years of medical training that an MD does. Plus she gets to prescribe all those wonderful modern medicines like Flexoril.