Gender identity.

[seebs]

So, this has come up here a few times.

And I have been informed that my lack of awareness on this issue is itself atypical. I'm male, although I have, according to the psychs, a lot of "feminine traits". I never really cared about this. Sometimes people call me ma'am, because I have long hair and a relatively high voice. This doesn't offend me. Sometimes I think it's funny, sometimes I just don't care.

But I am told that this is unusual. So, like... What is this thing, anyway? What do people mean when they talk about gender identity? I had always assumed it described the awareness of having a biological gender, and that in some people, it was for unexplained reasons not aligned with biology... But I don't see what the big deal is.

So. Is it a big deal? Does it matter? Do people actually think about themselves in gendered terms? What would that mean, anyway?

[Johnny Pneumatic]

I'm a guy, don't have a "girly" voice but when really upseat I can cry and do cry. I don't cry when people die anymore. Someone who used to be a friend at school before I moved about 57 miles away died in a car wreck recently.
Nothing from me more emotional than a sigh. I haven't seen her in eight years and she was basically a classmate friend, not really close. I suppose when I find a girlfriend and if she died I'd be sad if I really deeply loved her.

[Sweetie]

All I know is that if you ever watch, what's that show called, "the Next Supermodel" or something, you shall know the difference. Put a pack of men together and put a pack of women together and you shall know the difference. Put a man with a pack of women or a woman with a pack of men, and the difference is clear which I think would be just as true for you, even though you may have long hair which can be cut, and a higher pitched voice.

What I have learned is that I work best with men, working for men, and that is a fact. I prefer it, I lean towards groups of men, I usually seek only male friends, etc.

[Adora]

Because yeah, crap reality TV contests are just such a good indicator of social values... ¬_¬...

What do people mean when they talk about gender identity? I had always assumed it described the awareness of having a biological gender, and that in some people, it was for unexplained reasons not aligned with biology... But I don't see what the big deal is.
I think you may be confusing it with biological sex, which a lot of people do.

So. Is it a big deal? Does it matter? Do people actually think about themselves in gendered terms? What would that mean, anyway?
Well, considering so much fo Western society is binary gendered, yes. Even simple things such as buying clothes are divided up into male and female. And yet someone like me walks past the men's clothing section and always wishes they'd make some women's clothing like some of the fashionable men's ones, because, well, most women's clothing sucks dingleberries and is hideously unflattering on 99% of the women wearing it, and simply doesn't fit me properly.

Sometimes the gendering of the mind isn't really very conscious, because it is trained into us from day 1. We stop noticing things, because we learn "girls don't do that" and "boys don't do this" and we only notice it when people break the unwritten social rules that we've learnt. A prime example I can think of was shopping with a family unit the other day, and during the dource of 2 minutes I saw 5 men we passed scratching and rearranging their lunchboxes and no one blinked, yet when we passed a woman who gave a little tug at the crotch of her (very tight) hipsters, family unit and another woman passing made a comment about "how unladylike" or some other such rot.

A lot of the definition of genders is behavioral. So it becomes socially and culturally based over long (and sometimes short) periods of time, and the societies and cultures change, are influenced by others, and such. Of course, other aspects of society are influenced by gender, and vice versa. Especially things like sexuality, since in modern Western society a lot of discourse on sexuality is linked to gender.

*shrugs*

[seebs]

Hmm. I think there's a few different aspects of this. Being surprised to look in the mirror and see a person with tits strikes me as different from wearing pants.

I think we tend to conflate social and biological gender. The whole thing seems sort of surreal to me. Am I male? Apparently. But that's not me, that's just what my body looks like. I don't entirely identify with the primate body I live in. It's not that I'd identify more with any other body...

Although, as an interesting point, I was a scrawny kid, and I still act like I'm scrawny, even though I'm sorta big now. But I'll sit on people without thinking "hey, I weigh something like 230 pounds, I could actually hurt someone." I don't think I'll ever be particularly used to the notion that I am apparently now a tall guy, either. I still feel short-to-average.

Sweetie: I recognize that it's pretty easy to statistically tell the groups apart. But the outliers can be far enough out that they fit better in the "other" group.

It's fascinating to me, because I didn't really understand until just very recently that this is a big deal for people.

[solidsquid]

The word sex refers to a person's biological classification. It's based on anatomy, genetic composition and hormones. Gender is what the culture sees the person as. Sex is usually the determinant of gender but that is not always the case.

If you are biologically male - i.e. XY chromosomes, have male genitalia, and have more testosterone than estrogen flowing around...you are biologically male. The gender that this predisposes you to is masculine.

Some people may be biologically male but exhibit more characteristics of the feminine gender...although that determination is cultural.

There are biological abnormalities that may have a resulting impact on gender such as Klinefelter's Syndrome where the person has an XXY chromosomal pattern:

Klinefelter's Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_Syndrome)

There is also items like androgenital syndrome which results from too much exposure to androgens (like testosterone) prenatally:

...condition caused by exposure to excessive amounts of androgens during the fetal period; can result in a female with genitals resembling those of males. (454)

Apart from biology, there are psychological items as well such as sexual orientation which centers on the behaviors of one as being masculine or feminine, however the behavior doesn't change whether they are biologically male or female. Many people feel that raised in a conflicting sex roles environment that one may adopt the behaviors of such (such as raising a boy as a girl). That view is incorrect which is evidenced by a phenomenon that happens in the Dominican Republic, called the Dominican Republic Syndrome. These children are born with female features yet when puberty hits they development male genitalia and grow facial hair and show interest in females. The children are raised as girls and then changed to be raised as boys once puberty hits and the changes begin. They have no problem being males despite being raised as girls.

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/sexfiles/season_1/sfs109b1.htm

However this is different than homosexual orientation, which many would tout as a choice, but it has a biological basis as well, however it is too lengthy to get into here.

The DSM does list a psychological disorder concerning gender identity and it's called, oddly enough, gender identity disorder, yet the must be some criteria met in order to be diagnosed with this disorder (Four Criteria actually):

There must be evidence of a strong and persistent cross-gender identification, which is the desire to be, or the insistence that one is, of the other sex (Criterion A). This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex. There must also be evidence for persistent discomfort about one's assigned sex or a sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex (Criterion B). The diagnosis is not made if the individual has a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., partial androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia*)(Criterion C). To make the diagnosis, ther must be evidence of clinically significant stress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (Criterion D). (576)

* Partial Androgen Sensitivity Syndrome (http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic2222.htm) and Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic48.htm)

Davis, S. & Palladino, J. (2000). Psychology (3rd ed.). Upper Saddle River: Prentice Hall.

American Psychiatric Association (2000). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. (4th ed., Text Revision). Washington D.C.: APA.

[seebs]

That fits Beloved Spouse quite well, certainly. Ah, well. We seem to be doing well enough. Yay for coping mechanisms!

[Adora]

Sex is usually the determinant of gender but that is not always the case.
Actually, because most definition of gender is performative and behaivoral, this is rarely the case. Because, as you said, gender is what the society sees the person as, it relies on a) constructed ideas in the society of what constitutes what genders, and b) the correct behaviors on the behalf of the person.

However this is different than homosexual orientation, which many would tout as a choice, but it has a biological basis as well, however it is too lengthy to get into here.
Gutner Dorner? Or are we talking the so-called recent "theories" about mothers giving males the "gay genes" to be able to raise better females?

[seebs]

Although gender clearly depends somewhat on social roles, that doesn't rule out the possibility that those roles are formed at least partially in response to statistical norms for different groups.

[Adora]

Yeah, statistical norms. That doesn't mean said statistical norms aren't socially constructed.

[seebs]

Yeah, statistical norms. That doesn't mean said statistical norms aren't socially constructed.

No, but I can't prove that they are.

In short, I have no idea. I'd love to have an example of a society with radically different male/female roles, to see how members of that society feel about the gender roles they are perceived as having... I guess the easy case would be things like cooking, which varies from one culture to another.

But whether or not the roles are social constructs, how we feel about them appears to be partially inherent in people.

[vincit omnia veritas]

For some reason this thread brought to mind a funny bit I saw a few months back on The Dave Chappelle Show. In the skit Charlie Murphy recounts his experience of meeting Prince at a dance club in the late eighties (pre-"The Artist-Formerly-Known-As" era). Charlie had a great line something to the effect of "...in those days, the more 'girly' you looked, the better. Even I had my jeri-curl hairdo." -*rofl*

Anyway, considering that "human society" owes its inception to (and is contingent upon) biological beings, I think it's a given that "societies' roles" have roots in biology, and as a result, they too evolve right along with the biological beings they reflect. After all, what is deemed "the social norm" (for a woman or a man) is never exempted from being called into question, tested, and reformulated for periods of time.

Interestingly, our ever-evolving social standards have given rise to many social dichotomies. For example, in SkepticJ's poignant statement, "I'm a guy, don't have a 'girly' voice, but when really upset I can cry, and do cry.", we can see the largely perceived "weakness" (e.g. a grown man crying) can also be viewed as a "strength" (e.g. the courage to express one's emotions in the face of potential ridicule). And who's to say which interpretation is more valid? This, it seems to me, is one of the many subjective valuations left to the individuals who comprise a society.
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seebs wrote :
"But whether or not the roles are social constructs, how we feel about them appears to be partially inherent in people."
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Crocheted into thier very fabric, perhaps? Yes. I think genetic predisposition greatly affects (if not strictly determines) the way a person can feel about anything.

[livius drusus]

Interestingly, our ever-evolving social standards have given rise to many social dichotomies. For example, in SkepticJ's poignant statement, "I'm a guy, don't have a 'girly' voice, but when really upset I can cry, and do cry.". Here we can see the largely perceived "weakness" (e.g. a grown man crying) can also be viewed as a "strength" (e.g. the courage to express one's emotions in the face of potential ridicule). And whose to say which interpretation is more valid? This, it seems to me, is one of the many subjective valuations left to the individuals who comprise a society.

Indeed, not only that, but also that crying would be the exception to an otherwise entirely non-girly demeanor. Is crying in a man deamed weakness because it is seen as feminine? (In the US, that is. Italian men cry all the time.)

[vincit omnia veritas]

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livius drusus wrote :
Is crying in a man deamed weakness because it is seen as feminine?
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I'm not comfortable with my answer, but (honestly) I think there is a stigma attached to males who exhibit behaviors which are deemed more feminine in nature. I think it's generally accepted that females are (on the average) more comfortable than males in expressing thier emotions. I've even heard it suggested that pent-up emotion is a contributing factor to the shorter life-spans of males.
All of that said, I really don't buy into the whole "women are the weaker sex" mentality. To put it bluntly, no guy possesses a physical power over me like that wielded by skirt-wearing members of the opposite sex (especially on blustery days). I've been known to lose control of my truck while driving through the university district on such days. :D
No. I'm under no delusions as to who controls my small, pathetic world. :lecher:
I s'pose now would be an appropriate time to break down and cry, but then again, qui prodest?

[solidsquid]

Sex is usually the determinant of gender but that is not always the case.
Actually, because most definition of gender is performative and behaivoral, this is rarely the case. Because, as you said, gender is what the society sees the person as, it relies on a) constructed ideas in the society of what constitutes what genders, and b) the correct behaviors on the behalf of the person.

Which is highly correlated to the biological sex of the individual.

However this is different than homosexual orientation, which many would tout as a choice, but it has a biological basis as well, however it is too lengthy to get into here.
Gutner Dorner? Or are we talking the so-called recent "theories" about mothers giving males the "gay genes" to be able to raise better females?

No, no "gay genes" and no Dorner. My aim was in the realm of prenatal androgens.