Cashless Societies, Social Engineering, and Big Brother

[Petra]

I have no idea where to put this thread, so if any of you admin-type peeps wanna move it somewhere you think it best fits, go right ahead. :)


I've often wondered about this. When I first started working almost 25 years ago, I, like most people back then, would be paid in cash. After paying the rent and bills and what have you in cash, I would sometimes put some money in the bank. Or go clubbing or something. We didn't have EFTPOS or "FlyBuys" points, or scannable discount cards, or anything like that.

Now, we get paid only through the bank (generally speaking), have EFTPOS cards, discount cards for assorted supermarkets, department stores, etc. FlyBuys is a big thing, and can rarely shop without being asked if I have a FlyBuys card and would I like one/do I realise how great it is, etc.

All these things kinda freak me out. I just don't like 'em.

Here's why (in a nutshell):

Our personal information (address, phone number, date of birth, etc), what we buy (right down to brand names), where we shop, how often we shop, how much we spend, how and where we party, etc, is continuously being updated in various databases that get sold on to market strategists and multi-national corporations so that they may better manipulate us.

Seemingly innocuous marketing practices (like FlyBuys, for example) tend to give people the false impression that "they're on to something"; that they're getting something for free, reaping rewards (like puppies in training getting scooby snacks for unquestioning obedience), and are somehow enjoying greater "freedom of choice". I say poppycock.

Yeah, sure, we might go in a draw to win a laptop computer, a week in Vanu'atu, or a new car every few months or so if you spend over $X at The Mad Consumer Warehouse. But the odds of winning anything at all are slim, the points we tally up for 'guaranteed' gifts and perks are nominal in their value, and all the while we are giving away details of our life, habits, and finances to people who may not have our best interests at heart.

The vast detail of information collected about us via various means is sold on, in full or in specific data packets, to anyone who will pay for that info. We are harvested into demographics that benefit big business and government, and they pay handsomely for that data.

What do they do with that information?

In business, that's remained fairly consistent, I think. Corporations use it to effectively and efficiently manipulate and style us as obedient and unquestioning consumers. That might not sound like such a big deal, but it is. The enormous amounts of money involved, the science of it all - it both fascinates and frightens me.

In government, they also use that info as a tool for marketing, etc, but there is another area for concern here, too. I'm too inarticuate to express even vaguely my rather incoherent thoughts in this area, but think of Nazi Germany's use of IBM punch cards for quickly identifying Jews, as an example of how governments can use data for malicious social and political purposes.


All this stuff about making our lives easier with little plastic cards - feeling empowered by choices, chances, freedom and fashion - is bollocks. The opposite is true - we are disempowered, easier to manipulate, and nothing more than a cheaply harvested cash crop of valuable data that may or may not be used against us.


As for freedom - hand me no forms, tell me no lies, pay me in cash. :cool:

[livius drusus]

Sounds like philosophy to me. Moving thread; non-useless response to follow. :)

[Petra]

Thanks. :)

[Desert Dweller]

Excellent post/thread lunachick! My thoughts exactly. And we were not given a choice...no one asked me if I'd prefer a plastic transaction card...it just happened.
My conclusion? Well for what it's worth here it is.
I really do not have anything to hide (beyond the occassional joint) so I say
let the bastards know all they want. They can't have anything of the real me, the inside me, the soul me. I really don't care anymore that some little twit is being paid to analyse where and how I use my plastic...what the hell. So they know I prefer herbal toothpaste...so what. I don't open anything from marketers, it goes straight into the bin. I'm polite but brief with telemarketers (who always call during dinner prep time, have you noticed) and as far as spam goes...well don't get me going.
I dont care that all the quantitative data can be known about me...so what?
Ultimately it won't help them. I don't watch commercial TV and avoid ads...as best I can. In fact the more any company tries to 'target me' the more I puroposely avoid its products.
So stand naked and let them see all they want but make your own choices and keep them to yourself.

[wade-w]

Before I can answer intelligently, what is a "FlyBuys" card, and what is EFTPOS?

[Desert Dweller]

Before I can answer intelligently, what is a "FlyBuys" card, and what is EFTPOS? Congratulations wade-w! It's nice to know there are some ordinary (real) folk out there who don't know of these things.
Sorry to burst your innocence but:
EFTPOS = electonic funds transder point of sale. It's the transaction card most of us are forced to use when shopping or using 'the hole in the wall' - ATM
(automatic teller machine).

Flybys are 'points' one gains when shopping with a particular card or at a particular shop. They are added up and can be used to get plane tickets.
So when one has saved enought flybys one can take a flight to whereever.

Lunachicks point is that every time a transaction card is used the details (what was purchased...) are logged and some twit on a computer somewhere notes these 'preferences' so that corporations can build up a picture of the consumer and their preferences;thus enabling said corp. to send you the sort of junk they know you tend to purchase. It's target marketing.

[Petra]

Sorry, wade! I thought FlyBuys and EFTPOS were pretty much global.

FlyBuys is a system of shopping 'points':

http://www.flybuys.co.nz/

http://www.flybuys.com.au/

EFTPOS stands for Electronic Funds Transfer...[size=1something something something[/size], and is a bank issued debit card. I didn't realise that EFTPOS was the name of the company that makes the point-of-sale machinery. I thought it was the name of the system and service as devised and provided by all banks everywhere, not the actual hardware we punch our money transferrals into.

http://www.eftpos.co.nz/




And thanks for you reply, onthedole! I remember the Aussie bush, and the Aussie dole, well. :innocent:

[Petra]

EFTPOS = electonic funds transder point of sale.

That's it! Cheers. :D

Lunachicks point is that every time a transaction card is used the details (what was purchased...) are logged and some twit on a computer somewhere notes these 'preferences' so that corporations can build up a picture of the consumer and their preferences;thus enabling said corp. to send you the sort of junk they know you tend to purchase. It's target marketing.

Correct. But I'm also thinking even more than that, though I can't seem to articulate it. I really shoulda stayed at school longer. :blush:

[wade-w]

Before I can answer intelligently, what is a "FlyBuys" card, and what is EFTPOS? Congratulations wade-w! It's nice to know there are some ordinary (real) folk out there who don't know of these things.
Sorry to burst your innocence but:
EFTPOS = electonic funds transder point of sale. It's the transaction card most of us are forced to use when shopping or using 'the hole in the wall' - ATM
(automatic teller machine).

Flybys are 'points' one gains when shopping with a particular card or at a particular shop. They are added up and can be used to get plane tickets.
So when one has saved enought flybys one can take a flight to whereever.


We have such things, but they go by different names, and they are not nearly so all pervasive as Lunachick implies they are in her corner of the world. So I wanted to make sure I understood what she was talking about. Apparently things work a bit differently here in the evil capitalist US. I've never heard of a business in the US, especially a retail establishment, that required the use of plastic. As far as I know, they will all still accept cash.

Here, the points earned towards airline tickets are called "miles," and they are generally associated with credit card use. I've never had anyone try to sell me the benefits of such a plan while I was shopping.


Lunachicks point is that every time a transaction card is used the details (what was purchased...) are logged and some twit on a computer somewhere notes these 'preferences' so that corporations can build up a picture of the consumer and their preferences;thus enabling said corp. to send you the sort of junk they know you tend to purchase. It's target marketing.

I got her point.

[wade-w]

Actually, looking at the link that Luna provided for FlyBuys, we do not have anything quite like that here. The closest thing we have here is with credit cards. You can earn "rewards" from your credit card company, based on how much you use it.

[Dingfod]

Actually, looking at the link that Luna provided for FlyBuys, we do not have anything quite like that here. The closest thing we have here is with credit cards. You can earn "rewards" from your credit card company, based on how much you use it.Homeland (former Safeway grocery stores) has discount cards which require registration to obtain. I've heard of people lying on the info, but when I went to get one they required me to show my driver's license. They do not require you to use them, but if you don't, about 1/3 of the merchandise in the store is not only not discounted below regular pricing when it's "on sale" like it is with the card, but is very often even higher priced than their competitors. I don't shop there any more because of the snoopy nature of it, even though a Homeland store is closer to my house than any other grocery story by several miles. Of course, Homeland doesn't have a clue as to why stores of theirs are going under all over the place, they blame their competitors for underpricing them. Duh!

[wade-w]

Yes, warrenly, we do have discount cards. Kroger has a similar setup to what you describe. Lunachick even mentioned them in her OP. However, that's not what this FlyBuy thing seems to be about.

[Petra]

I've never heard of a business in the US, especially a retail establishment, that required the use of plastic. As far as I know, they will all still accept cash.

Oh, here, too! No shop will deny you paying in cash, natch.

But with more assorted plastic and less cash - credit cards, debit cards, discount cards, "rewards" cards (like FlyBuys), etc - we tend to use cash less, and we allow more and more data collected about our personal and consumer habits. Each of those cards requires you to apply for them, which means filling out forms with your personal details, etc. Everything you then do with the card that is issued to you is recorded in data banks to be sold on to third parties for whatever use; usually marketing and market research.

BUT, my point is that this seemingly innocuous practice could be used maliciously at worst and simply abused at best by unscrupulous corporations and governments.


FlyBuys is more collective, and many stores of different types buy into the FlyBuys thing - food, fashion, travel, appliances, car servicing, telecom, you name it. It's a very successful idea, as far as I can tell; but I don't have a FlyBuys card, and I will not get one.

To me, the whole thing appears mutually beneficial between goods and service providers and consumers, but I'm suspicious of it all.

[Desert Dweller]

1984
You are here to consume. To do nothing but consume. You do not exist beyond consumptioni. However, Big Bro in his Goodness provides you Choice. You can consume with cash, cards, or credit.

200 channels and nothing to watch.

[Corona688]

I'd like to point out the upside of being paid at the bank instead of wads of cash -- until muggers start carrying their own wireless ATM's, it's much harder to be outright robbed.

But then there's identity theft and slimy things like that...

[Corona688]

Homeland (former Safeway grocery stores) What's with all the "homeland" this and "homeland" that? Do people in the US actually like the term, or is it more subscribed to to be PC? PC in the political sense, not in the more modern sense -- it's extremely creepy to someone not in said homeland. :chin:

[Goliath]

I'm with ya, lunachick! The last time I was at a titty-bar, I tried to run my check card down the cleavage of a stripper....it must've gotten rejected, because I got slapped hard!

:D

[Dingfod]

Homeland (former Safeway grocery stores) What's with all the "homeland" this and "homeland" that? Do people in the US actually like the term, or is it more subscribed to to be PC? PC in the political sense, not in the more modern sense -- it's extremely creepy to someone not in said homeland. :chin:Really didn't think of it terms of Homeland, Fatherland, Motherland, etc. It was just a name that evoked an image of the union of home and farm or some such, something all warm and cuddly, kind of like Tom Ridge. heh It's logo was pretty innocuous, a rising sun over farm country, more recently just it's name in green capitalized italic letters.

Safeway supermarket chain sold off some regional stores during the merger mania of the 1980s, several of them in this region became a new company, Homeland Stores, Inc. (http://www.homelandstores.com/), long before the damn government's most recent coopting of the word, now meaning Vaterland.

In actuality, Homeland Stores, Inc. is just a few years out of bankruptcy. They blame Walmart and Target superstores, when in fact, their stores just suck. A smaller chain here in Tulsa is kicking their ass, Reasors (http://www.reasors.com/).

[viscousmemories]

I beat the system by living in poverty and not being materialistic. I can't buy what they're selling and for the most part I'm not interested in it.

Those cards the grocery stores give out are a total scam, too. All they did was bump up the prices for everyone but cardholders, to force you to get a "discount card" so they could keep track of all your purchases. Assholes.

[Desert Dweller]

living in poverty and not being materialistic.
Hello Viciousmemories,
I for one would like to learn more about you and your circumstances, e.g. how do you get by?

[viscousmemories]

living in poverty and not being materialistic.
Hello Viciousmemories,
I for one would like to learn more about you and your circumstances, e.g. how do you get by?
At the moment I share a house with a friend who pays all the bills. I contribute by doing the bulk of the cooking and cleaning, as well as occasional errands. Not that it's an equitable trade, mind you. I'm only not contributing money because I'm unemployed. A few years ago I was a homeowner making 80k a year. A few bad choices and a lot of bad luck later, I'm completely broke and my personal possessions don't amount to $1000.

Oh and btw, I'm not really all that vicious. ;)

[Desert Dweller]

I'm not really all that vicious. Never really thought you would be! I'm interested because I've lived since 1990 on 10k or less a year, and survived quite ok. Of course I don't own any assets I have to worry about, like a house.
I know there are many in this circumstance and am intersted in how others do it.
Unlike America, countries on the British system use a more generous unemployment welfare system, so I feel for those in the States who are between or out of work and wonder how they get by.

[viscousmemories]

I'm not really all that vicious. Never really thought you would be!
That was my subtle way of pointing out that you misspelled my handle. :)

I'm interested because I've lived since 1990 on 10k or less a year, and survived quite ok. Of course I don't own any assets I have to worry about, like a house. I know there are many in this circumstance and am intersted in how others do it. Unlike America, countries on the British system use a more generous unemployment welfare system, so I feel for those in the States who are between or out of work and wonder how they get by.
Wow, that's impressive. Congratulations.

Yeah I've been poor most of my life. My Mom kicked me out at 16 and I moved around and changed jobs a lot, as well as not having a job a lot. In my mid-20's (after a brief stint in jail and drug rehab) I got into computers and found myself making piles of money almost overnight. I never learned how to save or manage money, though. So when I quit my last contract and couldn't find another one, everything ran through my fingers pretty quickly.

I personally think it's very difficult to live simply in America. Most people seem to be fairly well off or dirt poor. Then again I have a bit of a skewed perception, since I'm dirt poor but I live like I'm fairly well off.

[Desert Dweller]

Oh yes, my eyes! Viscous...runny.

dirt poor but I live like I'm fairly well off. That's the goal. And when you really think of what is necessary...it's not that hard to achieve...it's all in letting go of stuff and experiences (getting pissed at the pub...) you don't need anyway. Fairly well off means...computer, enought food, good bed, some friends, radio for music, ....it really doesn't take so much.