Say Solstice not Xmas

[Desert Dweller]

Some 10,000 years ago Western Europe was governed by Tribablism. Bigger tribes vanquished smaller ones by killing the males and getting the females pregnant (lives on as the war/rape syndrome).

Around winter solstice, the days were short, it was bloody freezing so no-one wanted to go out of the tent.
To appease the Chiefs people would crawl to them with gifts..." Oh Chief, accept my gift and give us a break for a bit will you!"

Later as we all know Christianity took over this cultural practice...which had softened a little over time, and called it Christ's birthday, Christmas.

I detest this time. I hate the pressure on people to purchase rubbish, the nonsense of Merry wishes, in fact the entire scenario.
And what is more the origins of this rite are coming home...it's hell these days. Credit cards melt, families squabble, exchanges occur without heart....

I 've refused to celebrate Xmas for many years now preferring to celebrate a real event, the Solstice (here mid summer - for most of you mid winter).
Indeed it is a good time to hang with friends and family, without the nonsense of needless consumption. It's a time of relaxation, enjoying the sun (for us anyway) the beach, easy times, cold beers on hot days. And it works really well with all the nonsense removed.

so I want to know what you feel about Xmas. Is it a time of stress and trial, manic spending, unwelcome visits......?

[dave_a]

so I want to know what you feel about Xmas. Is it a time of stress and trial, manic spending, unwelcome visits......?

The wife and I generally dislike Christmas. We stopped participating in the family gift exchanges a few years ago and last year (plus this year) we are skipping the family get togethers as well.

We always do the family visiting on Thanksgiving and since Dec 28th is our wedding anniversary we like to save the travel and just take the dual holiday of xmas and new years (with vacation days inbetween) and chill out or do something special for our anniversary.

We do have a 5 year old and we enjoy buying him presents and watching him open them on Dec 25th though.

[godfry n. glad]

I'm a hopeless christmas crank.

I despise Christmas religious and Christmas commercial. I do my utmost best during most of the season to remain a civil as possible about everything, because it behooves me to get along with my co-workers. I basically try to ignore it. However, I work for a public corporation and I'm that damned annoying guy who keeps pointedly asking why we close on the 25th of December. I note that we didn't close for any Jewish holidays in September. I note that we failed to close for Siddhartha Guatama's birthday. Even my holy day, solstice, is ignored. I offer to work the 25th of December and regularly have my offer declined. My supervisors have learned to refer to it as "Winter Holiday".

In my eyes, the secret santa society is a vast and malicious conspiracy. My view of christmas trees is "butchering a tree for baby jesus". It's induced retail mania and impulse buying that brings out the worst in my fellow humans. Then there's the chemically-induced unsafe traffic during the holiday...what's that all about? How does drunk driving relate to baby jesus?

I'm a big supporter of AdBusters' annual Buy Nothing Day - being the Friday after the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday. I've got posters of Zenta hovering just outside my cubicle with the logo "Buy Nothing Christmas - BE ABOVE IT ALL".

I hate christmas music. I've had them drummed ceaselessly into me for more than 50 years. Every dogdude year. I'm sick of them.

I lived nearly twenty years with a New York Jewess. She observed more christmas than did I. We refined a season of candle-lighting and quiet gift giving. Solstice giving is a mixture of two things, giving small gifts of light and warmth (candles, books, mittens) to those near and dear, and getting yourself the best gift you could with all the money you might have spent on all those other gifts. Sharing time and love with your friends and family is the point....not gift giving.

(Just a note here, guys....The proper time for big gift giving was her birthday, not any Jesus. I didn't get out of all that.)

Anyhoo...I've come to accept that there is no way to change the drift of cultural icons and saturalias gone awry, and just try to stay out of the way as much as possible. In the interests of all parties. Ergo, I'm hopeless on the matter.

I do observe the solstice. Winter here. Summer there.

best,

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

so I want to know what you feel about Xmas. Is it a time of stress and trial, manic spending, unwelcome visits......?

The wife and I generally dislike Christmas. We stopped participating in the family gift exchanges a few years ago and last year (plus this year) we are skipping the family get togethers as well.

We always do the family visiting on Thanksgiving and since Dec 28th is our wedding anniversary wwe like to save the travel and just take the dual holiday of xmas and new years (with vacation days inbetween) and chill out or do something special for our anniversary.

We do have a 5 year old and we enjoy buying him presents and watching him open them on Dec 25th though.

That sounds like a nice way to do your anniversary. And probably always easy to get off, too. My wife and I got married out of the country, so we used our vacation time in mid-September to do our anniversary, after all the noseminers and yardapes had been seasonally incarcerated.

As for the 5-year old, it's probably too late, but I've always wanted to try introducing a child to new "traditions" of the winter solstice, the day with the least light. I'm pushing the exchange of gifts of warmth and light. Those in summer solstice, day of most light, south of the equator, could be exchanging gifts of cool and shade. (Free cold beer and the like.)

Dave, eh? As in "Dave's not here!"...that Dave?

godfry

[seebs]

I dislike the commercial aspects. I'm (perhaps unsurprisingly) not bothered by the religious aspects, but I'm not fond of the overly twee stuff one generally sees.

[Desert Dweller]

We do have a 5 year old
Hey...it's not possible to go agianst such an entrenched tradition overnight.
I took godfre n glad's advice and tried to give the kids alternative's on birthdays and celebratory times...but I can't go against such a tide and did also enjoy giving the kids a magical time for that day of presents.

[LadyShea]

I love Christmas. As with all things, it is what you make of it.

[Desert Dweller]

As with all things, it is what you make of it.
Wish it were so Lady Shea. Alas it's what mainstream makes of it which dominates. The pubicity, the trees (still with snow reminding us of our ancient memory of tribalism), the commerce...it is these powerful factors which dictate to a certain degree what can occur.
Yes one could be locked away and contemplate the birth of the Christ but that would require no news papers, magazines, radio, TV, being in public...shopping...
and as much as many might want that sort of isolation it just aint possible.

[LadyShea]

As with all things, it is what you make of it.
Wish it were so Lady Shea. Alas it's what mainstream makes of it which dominates. The pubicity, the trees (still with snow reminding us of our ancient memory of tribalism), the commerce...it is these powerful factors which dictate to a certain degree what can occur.

I disagree completely. But I happen to enjoy decorations and trees...it's what I love best about it in fact. I know several families who only allow homemade gifts. You can make it whatever you want, you seem to want to demonize it a bit (just an observation not a judgement) . Why do you feel it's not possible to go against the mainstream?

Yes one could be locked away and contemplate the birth of the Christ but that would require no news papers, magazines, radio, TV, being in public...shopping...
and as much as many might want that sort of isolation it just aint possible.

I am not religious at all, so it has nothing to do with contemplating the birth of Christ, for me. I love giving gifts and carols and cards and pretty packages and a big feast...and it's the day I am given off from work, not the Solstice, so I celebrate on Dec. 25th.

Oh, and BTW, I love Christmas despite spending over a decade in retail...if anyone should be cynical it should be me, but I chose to ignore all that negative stuff.

[wildernesse]

I love Christmas. I dislike that it somehow starts before Thanksgiving, since that takes the special-ness away. I love traditions, and Christmas was always a time of family traditions for our family when I was younger. We're still in the process of creating our own traditions for our (RA and I) family.

I like giving and receiving gifts, and although I stress over finding the right gift for family, it makes it worthwhile when I see people enjoying things that I've given them. When I use gifts that I've been given, I think of the person and the occasion when it was given--and I like to think of other people thinking of me when they use their gifts. I think the stress related to this is minimal. I don't think I would call our Christmas shopping/spending manic--it's usually a lot of fun, because it's something that RA and I do together for the most part.

I love the chance to get together with my family--especially now that I don't live close to most of them anymore. I rarely see many of my cousins during the year, and to go from seeing half of them every week like when we were all little, to seeing each other once a year is a little sad. So, I enjoy the big family get-togethers.

I love decorating our tiny fiberoptic tree, even when the cats knock it over a dozen times, and having lights on the juniper bush outside. It reminds me of the traditions that we went through when I was little--getting the boxes out, decorating the house, retelling the stories about the ornaments.

As I've been attending churches with a more traditional bent, I've come to love the Advent season as its celebrated. A time to meditate on the role expectancy and hope play in Christianity. Also, it's fairly new to me, since the church I grew up in did not celebrate/observe Advent.

I like Christmas parties, but smaller rather than larger. Although the large Christmas party that we went to last year wasn't my idea of fun, it left me with a beautiful memory of someone who died unexpectedly in January. I'm glad that one of the last memories I have of her is of her dancing, which I know she enjoyed so much. Actually, when I think of it, several people at that party have now left Athens, and that party gives me good memories of them as well.

The only thing that annoys me about this time of year is Christmas music on the radio--grrr. But, I can always turn that off and I do.

[RevDahlia]

I LOATHE the consumerist aspect of Christmas, as dictated by the dominant culture. I HATE having to hear Christmas music everywhere before it's even Thanksgiving. That just seems crass. Christmas music, except for "We Three Kings" and "O Come All Ye Faithful", sucks ass. I hate those stoopid "holiday-themed" ads, the ones that tell me that unless I buy my spouse a Rolex or a Jaguar I must not love him enough. I also hate the ads that tell my spouse he must buy me a Roomba or a diamond tennis bracelet, or else I won't love him enough. I hate the department-store Christmas trees everywhere, and the department-store Santas terrorizing children. I hate the pompous religiosity of the "Jesus is the reason for the season" people, not least because they are wrong. I DESPISE people telling me that I MUST celebrate Christmas a certain way, or else I am BAD; that's just a more culturally codified version of the nasty, meanspirited foisting-of-views that unenlightened types do all year round. I am furious that people who choose not to celebrate Christmas are vilified for doing so.

Still... I love Christmas. I like cooking and eating and drinking and decorating and making merry with friends and family and neighbors, especially when it's bleak out. It's fun and pretty and it smells nice, and it feels hopeful.

Dare I say it? I am a lifelong atheist, and I still like the idea of the Christ child born in the manger, under the Star, on Christmas Eve. I just think it's a pleasant image. I know that objectively it's hogwash, but it makes such a nice thought for the long, cold, dark days. My Celt ancestors probably celebrated the inevitable return of the Sun (Son?) on or around Christmas, so I am sure that my affection for traditional Christian iconography is probably an ancestral-memory-type acknowledgement of what has come before, gussied up in much cuter swaddle.

Happy Solstice, everyone.

[Godless Wonder]

I say "Krissmuss"

Krissmuss is all about Santa Claus, chocolate candy, eggnog, mistletoe, being inside, nice and warm when it's cold outside, giving and receiving presents, and having fun with your family.

Contemplating Christ??? Pssshh. Yeah, right. Way to ruin Krissmuss. ;-)

[Adora]

Depends on what kind of Christmas it is.

If it's one where the whole family descend on my house, I get shitty, because I really don't like most of my extended family. They're fuckwits, and having them in my house makes me pop a vein.

I don't care much about the "consumerist" thing. I like the process of shopping for presents for people, even if I hate the fact the city suddenly fills up with suburban hicks who don't know how to fucking walk through the mall without holding up half the other pedestrians.

Generally, it's usually also a time I manage to drop a few kilos, so that's always an upside. Oh, and the delicious food. Hee. *dances* we're having open-house celebrations with friends this year, so we're just going to go around to each other's place and eat everyone's food and get pissed for about 3-5 days and have lots of fun.

And fucked if I'm going to start calling it 'Solstice'. I mean, c'mon, Christmas is hardly a Christian celebration anymore. It's a celebration of Capitalist Post-Industrial society at it's best. Especially for younger generations.

I really hate some of the Euro-centric aspects of it (seriously, faux-snow-covered pines in tropical Queensland? Gimme a break) and Christmas carols are guaranteed to shit me off.

I also like it when it gets rainy around this time, and sometimes it gets really monsoony. Rain= love. I was always one of those kids who used to play in the gutters when they overflowed in storms. Hee.

This year isn't too bad with the parental religosity, since mum (the Catholic) is so busy this year with school n stuff she doesn't have the time or energy to get religious with advent wreaths or anything. Also, I don't get forced to go to church anymore, so YAY!

[freemonkey]

eggnog

mmmmmmmmmmmm, eggnog.

I used to love xmas, the decorating, the shopping, the giving. And yes, dammit, the getting. But the longer I live, the harder it gets. The crowds at the stores, the price of crap, digging out the decorations boxes, taking it all down afterward, the hokey TV specials.

But I still dig the eggnog.

[Desert Dweller]

sometimes it gets really monsoony.
Most readers won't understand this comment...but I like it too when it rains.
There's a great line from a song about sitting on the veranda, with the heat and the rain.
As you define Xmas, Solstice becomes even more real to me as a natural observation and time for ritual.

[livius drusus]

Some 10,000 years ago Western Europe was governed by Tribablism. Bigger tribes vanquished smaller ones by killing the males and getting the females pregnant (lives on as the war/rape syndrome).

Around winter solstice, the days were short, it was bloody freezing so no-one wanted to go out of the tent.
To appease the Chiefs people would crawl to them with gifts..." Oh Chief, accept my gift and give us a break for a bit will you!"

Erm... I get that you're jocoserious here, but you wouldn't happen to have any sources would you? The gift giving to the chief thing is a new one for me.


Later as we all know Christianity took over this cultural practice...which had softened a little over time, and called it Christ's birthday, Christmas.

I'm not really feeling the historical analysis here, onthedole, but I don't want to nitpick on this thread if it's not really something you were looking to get into.

so I want to know what you feel about Xmas. Is it a time of stress and trial, manic spending, unwelcome visits......?

Well, there's some of that, but there's some of that no matter what the reason families get together. Now that the internet is here, I spend very little time doing the heinous shop hassle and as long as I'm not at my parents', I can easily avoid the bad Christmas music which is my greatest bane of the season.

Meanwhile, there are lots of things I love about Christmas traditions. The fact that they have a richly textured cultural and religious past only accentuates the enjoyment for me. Italians have a Christmas witch (http://www.nsa.naples.navy.mil/gaetansa/newpage14.htm), you know. She's works the Epiphany while Santa does the Eve. What's not to love?

http://www.freethought-forum.com/images/befana.jpg

[Dingfod]

And fucked if I'm going to start calling it 'Solstice'. I mean, c'mon, Christmas is hardly a Christian celebration anymore. It's a celebration of Capitalist Post-Industrial society at it's best. Especially for younger generations.What she said.

We've been celebrating a generic Xmas* based more around Solstice. My daughters loved it because we let them open a gift every day from Dec. 20th through the 23th, then whatever gifts my family sent on Xmas Eve (an old family tradition), then Xmas morning wasn't quite as big a deal.

*I write Xmas but always said "Christmas" (another old family tradition), but these days I'm actually saying "Crisp-mess" and nobody notices. hehe

[Beth]

I happen to keep Christmas and all its trappings. I too like the image of the Manger scene and I have several manger scenes out in my house in the season, well I will very soon this season as I just found where I put them. I love Santa and the elves and stories about fairies and magick and Frosty the Snowman as well.

Yes there ia a consumerist aspect to this time. I have had to ignore all non-immediate family in gift giving this year, giving only to the moms and the dads get baked stuff and I give a gift to each sibling as well. Then my kids get the rest of the ante. I do not know if hubby and I will even exchange gifts. Usually he sees my huge Xmas dinner as his gift as I spend hours making a holiday feast for the four of us and I even do a ham (a rare treat in this house.)

If my lights had not been destroyed in Hurricane Jeanne (I discovered rain and wind got into my barn shed and destroyed a lot of things :( ), I would have my house lit up outside as well.


I normally stay up till three or four in the morning finishing the gifts, arranging the tree and gifts in a perfect way, making sure the house is spotless and preparing for the upcoming feast. Then, if I am lucky, I get a couple hours sleep. This is my yearly ritual as a mom. My kids get to wake to smells of spice and get to see the perfect arrangement of things as if Santa's magic had touched the common and made it extraordinary. I even let my kids help me bake a birthday cake for Jesus so they can sing happy birthday to him because it is, after all, the kid's holiday and that is something they ask to do yearly.

[Beth]

Oh, I just want to add, I do not see Christmas as the day to see family. I used to have to visit four to five different homes when I first married my husband to see family, get gifts, and eat. I hated it. I would go into histerics by the end of the day because either the family would get to me, or my husband and I would verbally murder each other from the joy of the day.

We visit everyone several days ahead and sometimes my mom or my dad on Christmas Eve because my mom makes the traditional chili and my dad has a huge assortment of food. I do not open gifts with them and it used to piss me off that I would be forced to break the tradition of one gift on xmas eve and the rest Xmas morning in regard to my kids at my inlaws. I did not think the relatives had to see the look on their faces opening gifts two weeks ahead of time. It sent the wrong message to my kids and they began to open all the gifts under the tree because they did not understand why they could open some and not all. (Last year was the first year my daughter did not invade gifts early.) My MIL caught on eventually and began coming over around ten in the morning to give the kids their gifts so they could see them open them, but keep with my wishes of no gifts before Xmas Day. My side of the family had no problem with my ideas because they all hold the same holiday traditions as I do.

I see Thanksgiving as the day that we must suffer family and I do not see why a wonderful holiday should be spoiled by having the stress that goes along with all of them. But then, we all live, for the most part, within an hour's drive from one another and we can see each other on non-holidays.

reason why I do not invite the family to join in on the meal I make: my mom is busy with her thing and my two younger sibs in the next county and my inlaws are the type who would judge my housekeeping because there are toys all over the place on Xmas morning and wrapping paper bits here and there. So, no formal guests, no stress and pressure to squelch the kiddie's fun and make them clean their morning messes up right away.

[godfry n. glad]

And fucked if I'm going to start calling it 'Solstice'. I mean, c'mon, Christmas is hardly a Christian celebration anymore. It's a celebration of Capitalist Post-Industrial society at it's best. Especially for younger generations.What she said.

We've been celebrating a generic Xmas* based more around Solstice. My daughters loved it because we let them open a gift every day from Dec. 20th through the 23th, then whatever gifts my family sent on Xmas Eve (an old family tradition), then Xmas morning wasn't quite as big a deal.

*I write Xmas but always said "Christmas" (another old family tradition), but these days I'm actually saying "Crisp-mess" and nobody notices. hehe

"Christmas is hardly a Christian celebration anymore." - Beth

and

"We've been celebrating a generic Xmas* based more around Solstice." - Warrenly

If these are the case, why call it "Christmas"? Why not call it what it is...Solstice, or Saturnalia, Winter Binge, Creditor's Delight, or the first day of the final week in December. It sounds as though in both your cases, it is nowhere near being a mass in honor of the birth of the christ.

And...I wouldn't say it's a celebration of Capitalist Post-Industrial society "at it's best". More like at it's worst.

And Warren, how about "crib mess"? Or, for the gangbangers in the crowd, "Crips' nest". Or for those lovers of the coolness of the season, "Crispness"? Any way you say it, it's still stale to me.

godfry

"Merry crispness and to all a good bite!"

[freemonkey]

Creditor's Delight.
hehe :giggle: that's exactly what it is. I know people who get deeper in debt every year trying to "make a nice Christmas".

[LadyShea]

If these are the case, why call it "Christmas"? Why not call it what it is...Solstice, or Saturnalia, Winter Binge, Creditor's Delight, or the first day of the final week in December. It sounds as though in both your cases, it is nowhere near being a mass in honor of the birth of the christ.



The days of the week are named after various deities but we don't call Friday something else because we don't honor Freya, why change the name of a cultural holiday just because we don't believe in the deity it's named for? Especially why would we call it Saturnalia in honor of Saturn...what's one myth over another?

[livius drusus]

What she said. Also, until I get to spend Christmas Eve ordering around my boss while I recline on a divan being fed grapes by his wife, I don't really see how Saturnalia could be accurate.

:comfy:

[Beth]

"Christmas is hardly a Christian celebration anymore." - Beth

and

"We've been celebrating a generic Xmas* based more around Solstice." - Warrenly

If these are the case, why call it "Christmas"? Why not call it what it is...Solstice, or Saturnalia, Winter Binge, Creditor's Delight, or the first day of the final week in December. It sounds as though in both your cases, it is nowhere near being a mass in honor of the birth of the christ.

And...I wouldn't say it's a celebration of Capitalist Post-Industrial society "at it's best". More like at it's worst.

And Warren, how about "crib mess"? Or, for the gangbangers in the crowd, "Crips' nest". Or for those lovers of the coolness of the season, "Crispness"? Any way you say it, it's still stale to me.

godfry

"Merry crispness and to all a good bite!"My kids still try to honor Baby Jesus because their friends do. It is a cool thing around here to bake baby Jesus a cake and unfortunately my kids decided they wanted that trend. I avoided it last year and had to run to the Circle K and buy a frozen cake so the would not bawl because their ritual was broken.

True it is hardly a Christian holiday anymore, but there is still a religious theme for those devoutly Christian. If I said Happy Solstice, which I may do, I would be percieved a pagan thing and my hubby would go into conniptions and others who receive such a greeting would be highly offended.

Honestly, my cards usually say "Happy Holidays" and have for years and I would reserve the religious scripture cards or baby Jesus cards for the most religious I knew.

Honestly, it was hard for me to get fundy about the holiday along with those at my church. I never did the devotionals during Advent, I did preform in the 'Birthday party for Jesus" Where each person who felt compelled did something religiously themed. I sang "Oh Holy Night" or songs like that, but honestly, I think it was more because I was able to do a solo and I loved to sing.
People did mass or communion on Christmas Eve, but I was always too busy in the secular to get wrapped up in the religious. I kinda justified my non religious attitude to the holiday that it was a pagan holiday in origin and that Jesus was more likely born in the Spring. So I did not really feel obliged to be religious. I mean, we celebrated with trees, a practice that was used in Baal worship. We did the yule logs, a practice the Celts used to celebrate in the worship the rebirth of the god. We did mistletoe which had paganistic roots and thought to have powerful magickal aspects to it.

Even my mom, who was extremely fundy for some time never made us look at Christmas as a religious holiday. Even she knew that it was not the birthday of Christ.

[godfry n. glad]

If these are the case, why call it "Christmas"? Why not call it what it is...Solstice, or Saturnalia, Winter Binge, Creditor's Delight, or the first day of the final week in December. It sounds as though in both your cases, it is nowhere near being a mass in honor of the birth of the christ.



The days of the week are named after various deities but we don't call Friday something else because we don't honor Freya, why change the name of a cultural holiday just because we don't believe in the deity it's named for? Especially why would we call it Saturnalia in honor of Saturn...what's one myth over another?

Well, just from my pov, Friday is a far more important holy day for me than is the 25th of December. Every other Friday is that holiest of holies, Payday. Friday also does not have the cachet of being the one of the largest acknowledged annual celebrations of the prevailing and dominant religious paradigm in the western world....

In the interests of exposing the vast plurality of modern society, don't just be dictated to by "everybody else is doing it," stand up for yourself.

Subvert the dominant paradigm!

godfry

[Beth]

If these are the case, why call it "Christmas"? Why not call it what it is...Solstice, or Saturnalia, Winter Binge, Creditor's Delight, or the first day of the final week in December. It sounds as though in both your cases, it is nowhere near being a mass in honor of the birth of the christ.



The days of the week are named after various deities but we don't call Friday something else because we don't honor Freya, why change the name of a cultural holiday just because we don't believe in the deity it's named for? Especially why would we call it Saturnalia in honor of Saturn...what's one myth over another?

Well, just from my pov, Friday is a far more important holy day for me than is the 25th of December. Every other Friday is that holiest of holies, Payday. Friday also does not have the cachet of being the one of the largest acknowledged annual celebrations of the prevailing and dominant religious paradigm in the western world....

In the interests of exposing the vast plurality of modern society, don't just be dictated to by "everybody else is doing it," stand up for yourself.

Subvert the dominant paradigm!

godfry
I don't understand, though, some of us actually like Christmas.

[Beth]

What she said. Also, until I get to spend Christmas Eve ordering around my boss while I recline on a divan being fed grapes by his wife, I don't really see how Saturnalia could be accurate.

:comfy:I must admit, Saturday is my Holy day. I can stay up late watching SNL with a bottle of German wine and hubby as well. :popcorn:

[LadyShea]

Friday also does not have the cachet of being the one of the largest acknowledged annual celebrations of the prevailing and dominant religious paradigm in the western world.

Um, what's that got to do with what we call it? I don't care about the religious aspects anymore than I care about the supernatural roots of Halloween, Christmas is as much traditional and cultural as it is religious.

In the interests of exposing the vast plurality of modern society, don't just be dictated to by "everybody else is doing it," stand up for yourself.

I don't feel there is anything to stand up against or for. I love Christmas and I celebrate it in my own way. As others have stated, I even like the nativity story and have a gorgeous Italian nativity scene...to me it's no different than the multiple stories and legends surrounding Santa or the Solstice stories regarding the birth of the God from the Goddess. All just myths of the season and part of the fun and traidition.

Subvert the dominant paradigm!


Are you trying to make my eyes melt using Subvert and Paradigm in the same sentence?? ;)

[godfry n. glad]

Friday also does not have the cachet of being the one of the largest acknowledged annual celebrations of the prevailing and dominant religious paradigm in the western world.

Um, what's that got to do with what we call it? I don't care about the religious aspects anymore than I care about the supernatural roots of Halloween, Christmas is as much traditional and cultural as it is religious.

Well, I was asked how christmas differentiated from Friday, so I gave that differentiation. You call it "christmas" because you are celebrating the traditional and cultural holiday that marks the beginning of the earthly sojourn of the christian god in his mortal form. It carries that name. You honor that name, rather than call it something else.

So be it.

I choose to do otherwise. And for it, I am tagged with mean-spirited labels because I neither observe nor participate in the group of inane holiday observances, nominally christian in nature, that have accreted to the 25th of December and the weeks leading up to it.

In the interests of exposing the vast plurality of modern society, don't just be dictated to by "everybody else is doing it," stand up for yourself.

I don't feel there is anything to stand up against or for. I love Christmas and I celebrate it in my own way. As others have stated, I even like the nativity story and have a gorgeous Italian nativity scene...to me it's no different than the multiple stories and legends surrounding Santa or the Solstice stories regarding the birth of the God from the Goddess. All just myths of the season and part of the fun and traidition.

Hey... Feel free to march lockstep with whatever traditions you were brainwashed with....I find them unfun. And inane.
It's your choice to call it by some phoney title attributed to a fictional non-entity reputedly of the first century. Why not celebrate Gargantua's birthday? Or Robinson Crusoe's? Or, the landing of Superman's space crib on Earth?

Subvert the dominant paradigm!


Are you trying to make my eyes melt using Subvert and Paradigm in the same sentence?? ;)

Nope. Just trying point out the rut that most crawl down into during this time of year.

godfry

"TRADITION"....Now there's a freethinker's guide.

[LadyShea]

Well, I was asked how christmas differentiated from Friday, so I gave that differentiation. You call it "christmas" because you are celebrating the traditional and cultural holiday that marks the beginning of the earthly sojourn of the christian god in his mortal form. It carries that name. You honor that name, rather than call it something else.

So be it.

Okay. To me, that's just the name of the holiday and carries no significant meaning since I think Christ, as a deity, is mythology. So be it if you think that's me "honoring" something.

I choose to do otherwise. And for it, I am tagged with mean-spirited labels because I neither observe nor participate in the group of inane holiday observances, nominally christian in nature, that have accreted to the 25th of December and the weeks leading up to it.

Who called you mean spirited for not celebrating Christmas? Certainly not me. And, if not me, then why are you projecting whatever onto me?


Hey... Feel free to march lockstep with whatever traditions you were brainwashed with....I find them unfun. And inane.

I wasn't brainwashed at all. I was raised in a freethinking home. I never even saw the inside of a church until I was 10 years old.

If you find it unfun and inane, then you are doing the correct thing by not celebrating, but I see no need for you to judge others for not feeling as you do about it. Calling me a brainwashed lockstepper is totally rude. Maybe people call you mean spirited because you act like a dick, as you are now, when discussing the subject?

It's your choice to call it by some phoney title attributed to a fictional non-entity reputedly of the first century. Why not celebrate Gargantua's birthday? Or Robinson Crusoe's? Or, the landing of Superman's space crib on Earth?

Because the season has been celebrated since pre-written history, and Dec. 25th has been called Christmas for 1500 or so years. Tradition ya see. I also celebrate Halloween, Easter, and the Summer Solstice (pool party or day at the lake usually).

It's your choice not to celebrate but you can get off your goddamn nasty high horse about it.


Nope. Just trying point out the rut that most crawl down into during this time of year.

I was trying to lighten the mood a bit. What is it about people celebrating that gets your panties wadded up your ass? Fucking lighten up.

"TRADITION"....Now there's a freethinker's guide.

Tradition connects us with other people in other places and keeps memories alive of those who are no longer with us. The traditions I hold, like making my Grammas cornbread dressing recipe on Christmas Eve and telling the story about each ornament being put on the tree (all of mine were gifts or collected for a special reason and given to me when I left home), are beautiful and life affirming, IMO.

[godfry n. glad]

Well, I was asked how christmas differentiated from Friday, so I gave that differentiation. You call it "christmas" because you are celebrating the traditional and cultural holiday that marks the beginning of the earthly sojourn of the christian god in his mortal form. It carries that name. You honor that name, rather than call it something else.

So be it.

Okay. To me, that's just the name of the holiday and carries no significant meaning since I think Christ, as a deity, is mythology. So be it if you think that's me "honoring" something.

I choose to do otherwise. And for it, I am tagged with mean-spirited labels because I neither observe nor participate in the group of inane holiday observances, nominally christian in nature, that have accreted to the 25th of December and the weeks leading up to it.

Who called you mean spirited for not celebrating Christmas? Certainly not me. And, if not me, then why are you projecting whatever onto me?

Well, I didn't project that onto you, so you can back down on that. What I'm referring to is this typical exchange:

XmasPeeps: "So...What're you doin' for the holiday?"

Me: "What holiday would that be?"

XmasPeeps: "Why, Christmas, of course! Big plans?"

Me, calmly: "Nope, I don't observe christmas."

XmasPeeps: "What're you, some kind of Grinch?"

Or, alternatively, "Scrooge" or "skinflint" or other derogatory descriptor that alludes to those who are evil, nasty festivity haters. It's as though if you're not in on the whole festivity in some way, shape or form, you become an undesireable sociopath. It's a nice bit of propagandistic labelling.

Me: "Nope, just not a christian."

XmasPeeps: "What? Why, Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity! You just need to lighten up and stop being a party pooper."


Hey... Feel free to march lockstep with whatever traditions you were brainwashed with....I find them unfun. And inane.

I wasn't brainwashed at all. I was raised in a freethinking home. I never even saw the inside of a church until I was 10 years old.

Um...LadyShea....freethinking need not have any relationship to the inside of a church. If you wallow in tradition uncritiqued, that's just as antithetical to freethinking as is religious dogma.

If you find it unfun and inane, then you are doing the correct thing by not celebrating, but I see no need for you to judge others for not feeling as you do about it.

Calling me a brainwashed lockstepper is totally rude. Maybe people call you mean spiritied because you act like a dick, as you are now, when discussing the subject?

Nope. See my typical exchange above. When the topic comes up, I calmly note that I do not observe christmas. The conversation generally goes downhill after that point.

[QUOTE]It's your choice to call it by some phoney title attributed to a fictional non-entity reputedly of the first century. Why not celebrate Gargantua's birthday? Or Robinson Crusoe's? Or, the landing of Superman's space crib on Earth?

Because the season has been celebrated since pre-written history, and Dec. 25th has been called Christmas for 1500 or so years. Tradition ya see. I also celebrate Halloween, Easter, and the Summer Solstice (pool party or day at the lake usually).

It's your choice not to celebrate but you can get off your goddamn nasty high horse about it.

Hmmm....at this point, I'd say we're just about eye to eye, so I'd say your horse it taller than mine.

[quote]
Nope. Just trying point out the rut that most crawl down into during this time of year.

I was trying to lighten the mood bit. What is it about people celebrating that gets your panties wadded up your ass? Fucking lighten up.

Well, there's an overgeneralization for you... People celebrating does not get my panties wadded up my ass. As for lightening up, why don't you fukken try it yourself?

"TRADITION"....Now there's a freethinker's guide.

Tradition connects us with other people in other places and keeps memories alive of those who are no longer with us. The traditions I hold, like making my Grammas cornbread dressing recipe on Christmas Eve, telling the story about each ornament being put on the tree (all of mine were gifts or collected for a special reason and given to me when I left home), are beautiful and life affirming.

Yeah? Well... bully for you.

What I perceive is a holiday where the expectations far outrun the reality. More people are depressed during this time of year than any other....so much for joy. More people commit suicide at this time of year....so much for life affirmation. This time of year is a field day for mental health specialists. More people go into debt that they cannot handle in a largely futile attempt to buy the love of their loved ones at this time of year. More people are forced to spend time with people they do not get along with than any other time of the year in the name of the holiday. TV, radio and internet all carry the same incessant heartening holiday message: Buy! Buy! Buy! All in the interests of a "feel-good" holiday.

I just love getting those Christmas cards from relatives I haven't seen since they disgusted me with the "They oughta round up and shoot all the stinkin' towelheads in this country," remark. Y'know, the one that says "Peace on Earth, Goodwill Towards All."

godfry

[Beth]

Hey... Feel free to march lockstep with whatever traditions you were brainwashed with....I find them unfun. And inane.I understand that you think they are unfun and inane, but it is simply unkind of you in your description of those who do participate in the tradition. Traditions can root people to their past, their culture, and their family history.

I much am like Shea with the fondness of certain traditional aspects of Christmas. If not for some toxic problems involving family, I might even do the family thing. One tradition I have adopted for the past 15 years is bake and make candies and ornaments. It is a tradition that people seem to love because I took the time to do something for them. I keep that tradition, not because I am bound to it, but because it makes others feel love and they get a taste of the Old World Style Christmas candies and sweets and ornaments that seem to be lost in modern today. I started the old style type candies making because I had to make them on a teenage allowance and had to use the simplest of ingredients.

I still remember traditions from childhood and I still keep some of them today and I try hard to incorporate may husband's childhood traditions, while crossing out the crotchity ones that his family introduced in his and his sister's adulthood.

Perhaps you should let others give gifts and enjoy themselves without the posters that seem to symbolically shout, "Bah, humbug!" If they want to exchange gifts, say it it against your beliefs and leave it at that. Even in my holiday joy, I respect those who do not celebrate for whatever reasons and I always try to respect those who might have reason to find the holiday especially painful. I'm sure that others will respect you for not sharing their traditions, although I am sure there are some jerks out there in the world.

Anyway, I will say "Merry Yule" or "Solstice" to a few of my pagan friends next time I give them a "Merry Meet". Everyone else gets a 'Happy Holidays" or a "Merry Christmas!".

[RevDahlia]

Tip for non-Xmassy peeps who don't want to be pestered about it: you could try the following.

XmasPeeps: What are you doing for the holidays?
You: Oh, you know, the usual. How 'bout you?

The XmasPeeps will not press further. They are asking you about your holiday plans because they secretly want to talk about their own holiday plans, maybe bitch about their inlaws or Aunt Daisy's fruitcake. You can totally avoid discussing your own lack of interest in Christmas, that is if you're not interested in making a federal case about the relative merits of the holiday.

[Beth]

Well, I didn't project that onto you, so you can back down on that. What I'm referring to is this typical exchange:

XmasPeeps: "So...What're you doin' for the holiday?"

Me: "What holiday would that be?"

XmasPeeps: "Why, Christmas, of course! Big plans?"

Me, calmly: "Nope, I don't observe christmas."

XmasPeeps: "What're you, some kind of Grinch?"

Or, alternatively, "Scrooge" or "skinflint" or other derogatory descriptor that alludes to those who are evil, nasty festivity haters. It's as though if you're not in on the whole festivity in some way, shape or form, you become an undesireable sociopath. It's a nice bit of propagandistic labelling.

Me: "Nope, just not a christian."

XmasPeeps: "What? Why, Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity! You just need to lighten up and stop being a party pooper."
Well, if you simply say that, then I can understand your frustration. But you said you did the posters. That sounded a little antagonistic toward their holiday.


Um...LadyShea....freethinking need not have any relationship to the inside of a church. If you wallow in tradition uncritiqued, that's just as antithetical to freethinking as is religious dogma.[/quote]Some traditions are good, I think and Joseph Campell might agree from what I have read and heard him say.

We are not saying to blindly follow. We tweek the good from the bad.



Yeah? Well... bully for you.

What I perceive is a holiday where the expectations far outrun the reality. More people are depressed during this time of year than any other....so much for joy. More people commit suicide at this time of year....so much for life affirmation. This time of year is a field day for mental health specialists. More people go into debt that they cannot handle in a largely futile attempt to buy the love of their loved ones at this time of year. More people are forced to spend time with people they do not get along with than any other time of the year in the name of the holiday. TV, radio and internet all carry the same incessant heartening holiday message: Buy! Buy! Buy! All in the interests of a "feel-good" holiday. I get the message here. I do agree the holidays can be very bad for people and that over commercialization of it is awful. Last year I was horribly depressed. My husband was out of work for four months and I was frantic over how to give my kids Christmas, let alone do a dinner. But we managed and the kids learned to accept less.

This year I am avoiding what depresses me. Number one on the list is family, mainly inlaws and non-immediate family. I decided to cut them out of my season and let hubby deal with his side and simply deal with mine. My side is so worried about me right now that they've given up on any concern for my religion.

I just love getting those Christmas cards from relatives I haven't seen since they disgusted me with the "They oughta round up and shoot all the stinkin' towelheads in this country," remark. Y'know, the one that says "Peace on Earth, Goodwill Towards All."

godfryYes, I know.

[dave_a]

As a funny aside, back during my fundy days when Jesus was the reason for the season for me, I had a conflict with an uber fundy group who found I wasn't fundy enough.

They insisted that Christmas, Easter and all the other pagan holy days that the church christianized are satanic. They even showed me in the bible where God forbid the Hebrews from using fir trees because the non hebrew pagans around used them for some kind of non Hebrew religious thing or the other.

Funny stuff. To me anyway.

[LadyShea]

Well, I didn't project that onto you, so you can back down on that. What I'm referring to is this typical exchange:

XmasPeeps: "So...What're you doin' for the holiday?"

Me: "What holiday would that be?"

XmasPeeps: "Why, Christmas, of course! Big plans?"

Me, calmly: "Nope, I don't observe christmas."

XmasPeeps: "What're you, some kind of Grinch?"

Or, alternatively, "Scrooge" or "skinflint" or other derogatory descriptor that alludes to those who are evil, nasty festivity haters. It's as though if you're not in on the whole festivity in some way, shape or form, you become an undesireable sociopath. It's a nice bit of propagandistic labelling.

Me: "Nope, just not a christian."

XmasPeeps: "What? Why, Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity! You just need to lighten up and stop being a party pooper."


I think you are being completely melodramatic, but whatever. What do you care what others think of you anyway? Just don't discuss it, or ask them what their plans are as RevDahlia suggested.


Um...LadyShea....freethinking need not have any relationship to the inside of a church. If you wallow in tradition uncritiqued, that's just as antithetical to freethinking as is religious dogma.

So now I am wallowing in an uncritiqued tradition and thereby being anti-freethought? I see, damn I didn't realize how horrid I am for putting up lights and wrapping gifts.


Nope. See my typical exchange above. When the topic comes up, I calmly note that I do not observe christmas. The conversation generally goes downhill after that point.

So don't have those conversations. There are other responses that might shut people up.


Hmmm....at this point, I'd say we're just about eye to eye, so I'd say your horse it taller than mine.

I never called you names or insulted you about your choice not to celebrate, you're the one making all the judgements here.


Well, there's an overgeneralization for you... People celebrating does not get my panties wadded up my ass. As for lightening up, why don't you fukken try it yourself?

I am totally light. You're the one who took a (lame as it was) joke and made it into a nasty exchange. And your responses to this discussion very much seem to point to wadded panties. In your first post, you stated your feelings on the subject with "I" statements and nobody said anything to you, now you have touted yourself as more freethinking or better than us revelers because you choose not to "wallow" or whatever.



Yeah? Well... bully for you.

Yep, bully for me. Everything I have discussed has been amount my feelings. Why you feel the need to shit all over people I don't know.

What I perceive is a holiday where the expectations far outrun the reality. More people are depressed during this time of year than any other....so much for joy. More people commit suicide at this time of year....so much for life affirmation.This time of year is a field day for mental health specialists.

What does that have to do with anything? If everyone stopped celebrating Christmas you think there would be fewer suicides and depression overall? Some people will always be depressed and suicidal, we can't stop the world going around because of them. For my part, we always invite people with no family or no way to travel to be with friends or loved ones over if we are having Christimas at home. This year, two of my hubby's customers from the bar will be joining us.

More people go into debt that they cannot handle in a largely futile attempt to buy the love of their loved ones at this time of year.

"Buy the love"? That sounds dysfunctional and unnecessary to me.

More people are forced to spend time with people they do not get along with than any other time of the year in the name of the holiday.

"Forced"...at gunpoint or what? Nobody can force anyone to spend time with them. They make that choice. I know people who go skiing on Christmas, or take vacations during the holidays, or volunteer at a homless shelter or soup kitchen. There is no reason to spend time with people one doesn't want to.

TV, radio and internet all carry the same incessant heartening holiday message: Buy! Buy! Buy! All in the interests of a "feel-good" holiday.

Again, why can one not ignore this? I know several families who only exchnage homemade gifts as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

just love getting those Christmas cards from relatives I haven't seen since they disgusted me with the "They oughta round up and shoot all the stinkin' towelheads in this country," remark. Y'know, the one that says "Peace on Earth, Goodwill Towards All."

godfry

So put "Return to Sender" on 'em to send people the message or throw them away, or donate them to a school (they use the pictures for crafts).

[LadyShea]

double post

[godfry n. glad]

I think you are being completely melodramatic, but whatever. What do you care what others think of you anyway? Just don't discuss it, or ask them what their plans are as RevDahlia suggested.

Actually it's not melodramatic at all. It's a fairly typical response from those in the throes of "holiday insanity." It's happens to me with excessive frequency.

So... I should stifle my opinion in favor of the prevailing opinion? Gee...thanks, but I'll pass. How about the Jews? Should they not mention their non-observance, as well?

Um...LadyShea....freethinking need not have any relationship to the inside of a church. If you wallow in tradition uncritiqued, that's just as antithetical to freethinking as is religious dogma.

So now I am wallowing in an uncritiqued tradition and thereby being anti-freethought? I see, damn I didn't realize how horrid I am for putting up lights and wrapping gifts.

If you put yourself in that category then, yes. Pretty stinkin' horrid, alright.


Nope. See my typical exchange above. When the topic comes up, I calmly note that I do not observe christmas. The conversation generally goes downhill after that point.

So don't have those conversations. There are other responses that might shut people up.

Yep... There sure are. I could tell them I'm going home to wander the neighborhood and kick dogs. Or, I could just tell them to fuck off to begin with. I don't though...I try to educate them that there are other traditions and other observances. You're saying I shouldn't do that?


Hmmm....at this point, I'd say we're just about eye to eye, so I'd say your horse it taller than mine.

I never called you names or insulted you about your choice not to celebrate, you're the one making all the judgements here.

Like hell you haven't.


Well, there's an overgeneralization for you... People celebrating does not get my panties wadded up my ass. As for lightening up, why don't you fukken try it yourself?

I am totally light. You're the one who took a (lame as it was) joke and made it into a nasty exchange. And your responses to this discussion very much seem to point to wadded panties. You could have stated your feelings on the subject with "I" statements and nobody would have said anything, instead you had to try to tout yourself as more freethinking or better than us revelers because you choose not to "wallow" or whatever.

You put yourself into those statements, not I. There was a joke somewhere? It must've been pretty fukken bad 'cause I missed it.

Your point is taken on the "I"... I shall endeavor to do so.

Yeah? Well... bully for you.

Yep, bully for me. Everything I have discussed has been amount my feelings. Why you feel the need to shit all over people I don't know.

What I perceive is a holiday where the expectations far outrun the reality. More people are depressed during this time of year than any other....so much for joy. More people commit suicide at this time of year....so much for life affirmation.This time of year is a field day for mental health specialists.

What does that have to do with anything? If everyone stopped celebrating Christmas you think there would be fewer suicides and depression overall?

I think if the expectations and spending attititudes about christmas were deemphasized, yes... I do think there would be a reduction in suicides and depression.

People will always be depressed and suicidal, we can't stop the world going around because of them. For my part, we always invite people with no family or no way to travel to be with friends or loved ones over if we are having Christimas at home. This year, two of my hubby's customers from the bar will be joining us.

You're just a fukken saint then, aren't you? Doesn't give a shit about the depressed or the suicidal...right. 'Cause they'll always be with us. I think your priorities are good, but there are a significant portion of our population that suffers due to the holiday. Upon the empoverished, the burden of expectations can be weighty. I think these people are an expression of a wider discontent with the "crass commercialism" and the petty nature of much of the forced joviality of modern western Christmas.

There are those like myself who wish that christmas would just not happen. But given the reality of pervasiveness of the tradition, that's unlikely. So I think that expression of alternate observation be made clearly. I tend to be overly strident. LadyShea, for that, I apologize.

Just as an aside, I personally think you might want to check the OP of this thead. I sorta got the feeling that this thread was for those who sought solace that amongst this number of freethinkers, there might be those who were interested in solstice humanist type holiday observation, or mayhaps there are pagans amongst us?

More people go into debt that they cannot handle in a largely futile attempt to buy the love of their loved ones at this time of year.

"Buy the love"? That sounds dysfunctional and unnecessary to me.

Which would be a perfect description of "christmas"....dysfunctional and unnecessary.

More people are forced to spend time with people they do not get along with than any other time of the year in the name of the holiday.

"Forced"...at gunpoint or what? Nobody can force anyone to spend time with them. They make that choice. I know people who go skiing on Christmas, or take vacations during the holidays, or volunteer at a homless shelter or soup kitchen. There is no reason to spend time with people one doesn't want to.

It's called "family obligation." It's a big part of the holiday. Or hadn't you fukken noticed?

TV, radio and internet all carry the same incessant heartening holiday message: Buy! Buy! Buy! All in the interests of a "feel-good" holiday.

Again, why can one not ignore this? I know several families who only exchnage homemade gifts as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I attempt my best to ignore this crap. Yet, it permeates the society in which I live and work. Homemade gifts are great, but why is it necessary to have an obligatory gift-giving holiday at all?

just love getting those Christmas cards from relatives I haven't seen since they disgusted me with the "They oughta round up and shoot all the stinkin' towelheads in this country," remark. Y'know, the one that says "Peace on Earth, Goodwill Towards All."

godfry

So put "Return to Sender" on 'em to send people the message or throw them away, or donate them to a school (they use the pictures for crafts).

I just recycle mine. That way they can fulfill some higher purpose once they become absorbant tissue paper.

godfry

[Dingfod]

...There is no reason to spend time with people one doesn't want to. ...Boy howdy, I wish I had known that in the past.


Actually... what I mean is one may not wish to spend the hollydaze with certain people, but, if one is a partner in a relationship, one sometimes is required by said partner to do things one does not necessarily want to do if for no other reason than to keep the peace within the relationship (another fine American holiday tradition). To think, I've complained when a movie is bad enough that I want those two hours of my life back, but I've put up with days and days tolerating people I can't even stand to be around.


Seasoned Grittiness to frydog... er, godfry, may all your <blank>s be Bright. I do not know why some of my fellow godless heathen infidels are so bitter toward <blank> traditions. Yes, I say <blank>, to me it is as harmless as a prayer, tis but a word. Ponder something more meaningful, like why someone would spend 5% of what they earn in a year to see one fukken college football bowl game.

[Desert Dweller]

Livius (nitpicking he he) asked: but you wouldn't happen to have any sources would you As writing didn't start until Homer about 600BC it's hard to get references!
But seriously, it is gained from a 'generative mechanism'.
A phenomenonis observed.
a mechanism is contructed which may explain the phenomenon.
The mechanism is allowed to operate to see if the phenomenon indeed arises
When it does then the explanation is probably accurate.

You would have to go to ancient language studies, paleoanthropology...
And because Professor Knowitall failed to write about it doesn't mean it's non existent.

'peace on earth and goodwill to all men' (sorry girls) is possible a hang-over from that time of tribalism, as are all the symbols, fir trees with snow, mistletoe (how pagan do you want to get?) , sledges/sleighs, .......

Seems to me reading the posts that: Generally speaking the girls like it and the boys (except where there's a small child) don't.
Figures...the girls get to decorate, fuss, cook, shop and shop and shop, and take care of details and relationships, (all good stuff mind you) while the boys get to melt their plastic and be rewarded with ale. ho ho ho

[LadyShea]

Actually it's not melodramatic at all. It's a fairly typical response from those in the throes of "holiday insanity." It's happens to me with excessive frequency.

So, since you care so much for the depressed and suicidal, why not work a hotline at Christmas? That way, when people ask what you're doing, you can make them feel like total shit.

You could also serve dinner to the homless or hand out gifts at the children's home, but that's prolly lockstepping or something.

So... I should stifle my opinion in favor of the prevailing opinion?

Nope, never said you should, but you don't need to be so bitter about it.

How about the Jews? Should they not mention their non-observance, as well?

Of course they should. Most say "I am Jewish and celebrate Hannukuh".


If you put yourself in that category then, yes. Pretty stinkin' horrid, alright.

The only category I have put myself in is someone who makes merry at Christmas. You're the one who said I was wallowing and some kind of antifreethinker.


Yep... There sure are. I could tell them I'm going home to wander the neighborhood and kick dogs. Or, I could just tell them to fuck off to begin with. I don't though...I try to educate them that there are other traditions and other observances. You're saying I shouldn't do that?

Sure you should, but you don't have to get so pissed off about it. People say stupid things all the time, educating them is great.


Like hell you haven't.

I said you were acting like a dick. And you were.


You put yourself into those statements, not I. There was a joke somewhere? It must've been pretty fukken bad 'cause I missed it.

I smartassed you for using subvert and paradigm, and you went all ballistic.

Your point is taken on the "I"... I shall endeavor to do so.

See my edit, you did so in your first post on this thread.


I think if the expectations and spending attititudes about christmas were deemphasized, yes... I do think there would be a reduction in suicides and depression.

I don't think so, I think depressed people simply feel more lonely or nostalgic for better times at Christmas.


You're just a fukken saint then, aren't you? Doesn't give a shit about the depressed or the suicidal...right.

And you do? What do you do to help the depressed and suicidal and lonely at Christmas? I invite people over who would otherwise be alone, thats what I can do. I have volunteered at soup kitchens before. I am not going to simply not celebrate because there are depressed people in the world.

'Cause they'll always be with us. I think your priorities are good, but there are a significant portion of our population that suffers due to the holiday. Upon the empoverished, the burden of expectations can be weighty. I think these people are an expression of a wider discontent with the "crass commercialism" and the petty nature of much of the forced joviality of modern western Christmas.

Again, one can change their expectations and create their own traditions that don't play into the commercialism, or, like you, they can choose not to observe the holiday at all. Each person can make their own choices, you can't blame a holiday for their actions.

There are those like myself who wish that christmas would just not happen. But given the reality of pervasiveness of the tradition, that's unlikely. So I think that expression of alternate observation be made clearly. I tend to be overly strident. LadyShea, for that, I apologize.

No problem, I tend to never back down, and to push buttons. Again, maybe your observation of the season can include things that counter the negatives you dislike, such as the suicide hotline volunteering I mentioned.

Just as an aside, I personally think you might want to check the OP of this thead. I sorta got the feeling that this thread was for those who sought solace that amongst this number of freethinkers, there might be those who were interested in solstice humanist type holiday observation, or mayhaps there are pagans amongst us?

I did reread it, the OP asked what we thought of Christmas and I stated what I thought. The OP also later mentioned contemplating Christ's birth rather then givng into the commercialism, so I thought maybe he/she was a Christian.

And I have several Pagan friends who celebrate the Solstice the whole week, and especially on the 25th because they're off work. It's only a few days, and they're houses look just like mine, a Yule tree, wreaths, holly, candles, etc.


Which would be a perfect description of "christmas"....dysfunctional and unnecessary.

As I originally stated, it is what you make it.


It's called "family obligation." It's a big part of the holiday. Or hadn't you fukken noticed?

I don't believe one is obliged to spend time with people one doesn't like. I can choose to spend time with my family, or have just me and hubby, or invite friends over, or go to the mountains, or volunteer, or whatever I want. I have done all of these things on various Christmases.

I have also spent time with hubby's family who I don't particluarly care for...but not to keep the peace, nor because I am forced, but because I love him and he loves them and he appreciates me sucking it up to hang with them once every couple years. I am perfectly free to stay home, I choose to go though.


I attempt my best to ignore this crap. Yet, it permeates the society in which I live and work. Homemade gifts are great, but why is it necessary to have an obligatory gift-giving holiday at all?

Because some people enjoy exchanging gifts. And it's not obligatory. With hubby's family, we only buy for the kids, with mine, we have a very low cost limit so the thought put into it is more important than the money spent. I love giving thoughtful gifts.


I just recycle mine. That way they can fulfill some higher purpose once they become absorbant tissue paper.

godfry

That's a great use of them.

[Desert Dweller]

Hey Godfrey n glad and Lady Shea;
I wish you two would get a room!

[livius drusus]

Livius (nitpicking he he) asked:

I don't consider it nitpicking to ask you where you get your information. I'm interested in religious history so if I see an unfamiliar claim, I'm likely to pursue it.

As writing didn't start until Homer about 600BC it's hard to get references!

That's why I didn't ask for a primary source. ;)

But seriously, it is gained from a 'generative mechanism'.
A phenomenonis observed.
a mechanism is contructed which may explain the phenomenon.
The mechanism is allowed to operate to see if the phenomenon indeed arises
When it does then the explanation is probably accurate.

It is? Why? It seems to me like the problem of induction would render this methodology entirely useless both in terms of explaining past phenomena and predicting future ones.

Even if I do accept the accuracy of the constructed mechanism, I don't see how your claim that "Around winter solstice, the days were short, it was bloody freezing so no-one wanted to go out of the tent. To appease the Chiefs people would crawl to them with gifts... 'Oh Chief, accept my gift and give us a break for a bit will you!' " is a mechanism you can allow to operate in order to verify its accuracy. In fact, I don't see how any "generative mechanism" could provide an accurate analysis of ancient cultures.


You would have to go to ancient language studies, paleoanthropology...
And because Professor Knowitall failed to write about it doesn't mean it's non existent.

So you mean you made it up, then? That's cool. Obviously your OP was not intended to be a rigorous historical analysis. I'd just like to know if you got that from an actual source or if you pulled it out of your ass. Naturally the products of your ass may be entirely correct - far being it from me to make an Ass Hominem dismissal of your argument - but if you came across the chiefs getting presents thing in your studies I'd be interested in following up on it.

[Adora]

If these are the case, why call it "Christmas"?

Because I'm lazy. And "Xmas" or "Solstice" both look and sound stupid, and have connotations I don't like. "Xmas" is far too consumerist for my liking, and "Solstice" still has religious and ceremonial connotations.

Christmas for me means good (well, sometimes) family, holidays, relaxing, good food, some presents (but not overly consumerist in my experience) and generally having a good time. None of those words have that meaning for me, so I'm not going to start using them.

Let me put it this way: It's called Christmas in Japan (or "Kurisumasu") but they really don't give a fuck about baby Jesus and the traditional Christian junk- they celebrate Christmas as it should be celebrated in a Post-Industrial society: By giving each other lots of money in little envelopes, and eating delicious cakes, and seeing their families. The word means that to them, and they're not about to change it to a Japanese phrase for 'Celebratory December Gift-Giving Enjoyment Time' for obvious reasons.

Christmas means to me what I said before. Those other words either mean things I don't like/ don't think should be associated with Christmas, or don't have any significance to me at all. And if language doesn't have significance, then it isn't language at all.

[Desert Dweller]

It seems to me like the problem of induction would render this methodology entirely useless
Ref: The Tree of Knowledge - Maturana and Virela.

So you mean you made it up, then? That's cool.
I didn't make it up (wish I had). But I do find it tiresome to be around those who are into scientism...wherein everything must have a reference and a logical explanation.....I gave you a gift earlier and you didn't recognise it.
Try getting out of your scientific square...explore...there are more ways of knowing than are dreamed of in your philosophy...

Now I have to close down cos there's an electric storm nearby....I'm sure I'll return to your reply about .... epistemology and the right way to reason....then maybe you'll surprise me and say otherwise.

[Clutch Munny]

It seems to me like the problem of induction would render this methodology entirely useless
Ref: The Tree of Knowledge - Maturana and Virela.

Varela, actually. Anyhow, I missed the bit where you say how "a mechanism is contructed which... is allowed to operate to see if the phenomenon indeed arises" in the case of your chief story. What mechanism? When did you operate it? Listing the title of a book in which you read some of those words doesn't show you're applying them in any coherent way.

When it does then the explanation is probably accurate.

No, actually. Models can be constructed and executed for any number of discredited theories. (Leading one wag to remark that if we'd had computers in 1100, we'd still have the Ptolemaic solar system...)


I do find it tiresome to be around those who are into scientism...wherein everything must have a reference and a logical explanation....

Hmm. No scientism on display here; livius was excruciatingly careful to allow that your purposes might not causal-historical-explanatory. If that's true, then the courteous and clear response would be to acknowledge the fact. If you are purporting to give such an explanation, though, then the question "Why say that?" is utterly natural and reasonable. It should provoke evasive pseudo-intellectual smoke-blowing from no one save a bullshit merchant.


Try getting out of your scientific square...explore...there are more ways of knowing than are dreamed of in your philosophy...

Reading a curiously ineffable mystic virtue into one's ignorance and confusion is not terribly rare; I find it tiresome, as some might say.

But perhaps I'm not properly in the Christmas spirit! Crawl to my tent and I may be appeased.

[Desert Dweller]

After the storm passed I tried to get back to my last post to edit it. It was a grumpy post made just after waking in a grumpy mood.
But Clutch Munny got it first; scolded me and then seduced me into her tent...for which I was grateful). Clutch munny, you'd better be female cos I don't bat for the other team at all at all. :cool:

What I ought to have said is: If you find the explanation inadequate please provide another. Clearly the practice of appeasement came from somewhere, along with all the iconography of fir trees etc. So what might explain this?
And don't imagine that mid-winter was a joyous time!!!

What I used I gained form Maturana (who I met on a 3 day seminar thingy)

ps full description of generative mechanism in the above reference

[LadyShea]

What I ought to have said is: If you find the explanation inadequate please provide another. Clearly the practice of appeasement came from somewhere, along with all the iconography of fir trees etc. So what might explain this?
And don't imagine that mid-winter was a joyous time!!!


I am not really sure what you mean here, or what we are to explain...what appeasement? You mean gift giving?

Iconography of fir trees? You mean why was an evergreen tree seen as special during winter?

What exactly are you asking for?

And Clutch is not female. Hey, BTW, Clutch, ihows your annual Xmas letter to the family coming?

[Desert Dweller]

OOps sorry Clutch! Maybe come to yr tent when you are offering an ale and a yarn.

Lady Shea asked What exactly are you asking for?
Simply put: an explanation of the origin of what we know as Christmas.

ie what might explain gift giving in the middle of winter? when presumably most folk wouldn't want to move much and the days were very short.

Whence the need for 'peace' and 'goodwill' ? (that is if my explanation which started the thread is rejected)

[LadyShea]

Simply put: an explanation of the origin of what we know as Christmas.

Ah, well obviously most of the traditions didn't come from the Southern Hemisphere. Each item has a specific origin, mostly pagan having to do with the Solstice. There are dozens of websites and book. This article (http://www.secweb.org/) is a good start.

I think the fact that firs stay green all year made them special or sacred, personally.

ie what might explain gift giving in the middle of winter? when presumably most folk wouldn't want to move much and the days were very short. Whence the need for 'peace' and 'goodwill' ? (that is if my explanation which started the thread is rejected)

Celebration of living through the winter and the return of the sun I assume. People were holed up and probably made little gifts for each other to pass the time during the long dark winter. The peace and goodwill part came from the Biblical story added later I am pretty sure.

[Beth]

I don't think so, I think depressed people simply feel more lonely or nostalgic for better times at Christmas. I also think that seasonal depression may come into play in this area. At least in the North, even here, somewhat. The daylight hours are shortened and the shortened days seem to trigger a depression or melacholy. Then there is the stress of the season. Some people must visit many family members, may have too many gifts to buy and not enough money. Then there are some, as you say who get nostalgic and sometimes people hold very bad memories of Christmas such as a family trauma or perhaps family arguments on the holidays. There are several reasons.

[livius drusus]

Wow, onthedole, you sure do have me pegged wrong. Or at least you did before Clutch pegged me so perfectly right. Anyhoo, I think I'll do a little reading on the history of Christmas and see what comes of it.

[LadyShea]

Good point on the seasonal thing Beth. Do you think if we all stopped celebrating Christmas depression and suicide would decline though?

[Clutch Munny]

Hey, BTW, Clutch, ihows your annual Xmas letter to the family coming?

Proceeding apace, thanks! Expect a posted version soon.


And onthedole, forget what these folks are telling you. I'm a totally hot chick, petite and smouldering like Rachel Weiss from some angles, tall and quirky like Geena Davis from other angles.

Okay, I'm a large-ish lumpy hockey-playing (own-)nad-scratching male. I was only expressing my pretensions to chiefliness with the tent thing. Ale's always on tap, though.

[Beth]

Good point on the seasonal thing Beth. Do you think if we all stopped celebrating Christmas depression and suicide would decline though?
No, not necessarily. I think the Christmas season may be a catalyst in some cases, in others, it may help prevent suicide. I know that Christmas may delay or cause others to think twice about suicide simply because they do not want to leave that kind of Christmas memory. Although, some people are so beyond rationalizing that they do not try to argue themselves out of depression.

Anyway, I think that if a person is that bad off, they may just do themselves in anyway without Christmas being a catalyst. Do I think holiday stresses can contribute? Yes. Most definitely. But every day life can as well.

To me, if people kinda stepped back from the drive to get the perfect gift, no matter what the cost, that would be wonderful. Often, my husband takes plates of our Christmas dinner to his friends in the evenings. Granted it is not a true gift, but it does remind someone that they are cared for and people talk about how we remembered them during the year. Same with the things I bake. When I was a kid, I used to give my mom coupons for extra chores I would do for her. I honestly think the best gift that we can give is to show we care, then if we decide to buy on that premise, shopping and buying and the season may be a little less demanding and easier to bear.

[Godless Dave]

I like Christmas - on December 24 and 25. The rest of this two-month long "holiday" grates on my nerves, but contrary to onthedole's opinion I am mostly able to ignore it. I have been able to find non-Christmas fare on cable TV, I don't go out shopping much anyway, and I haven't listened to commercial radio since I got a CD player in my car. I live alone so there's no pressure to get and decorate a tree. I only have five people to buy gifts for and they're all adults. My sister actually enjoys wrapping gifts so I don't even have to do that. The only stressful part for me is I fly back east to visit family so I have to wait in a crowded, noisy airport for permission to get shoved into the sardine can they call coach class, but that's why airports have bars.

[wei yau]

I enjoy celebrating Christmas as a secular/cultural holiday. Our tree is free of any Christian ornaments. With me being an atheist and my wife being Jewish, it just doesn't feel right.

But, it does feel right to decorate a tree together. It feels right to exchange gifts with friends and family. It feels right to wish one another well.

Perhaps it's because I'm an atheist with no religious upbringing. Perhaps it's because my parents were immigrants. But, to me, Christmas is completely without any religious significance. It's simply a time to celebrate and enjoy the company of people you love.

I don't go looking for trouble when it comes to religion. I don't feel resentful or bitter over the predominance of Christianity in the cultural aspects of society. As an atheist, I find that religion is nearly irrelevant in my personal life. This does not mean I don't feel strongly about those religious issues that do affect me, but that's a different topic.

I find my own meaning in the things I do, celebrating Christmas is no different in that regard.

[Desert Dweller]

the article isn't satisfying...reason...because it deals with a much later time, eg Roman. What we're talking about (Tribalism in Europe) is much earlier. We know of the three great Kurgen invasions into Old Europe ending with the Doric around 4th c BC. These were the outcome of earlier tribal dominance in the north and east...started in the great plains east of the Urals.
So recent explanations don't cut it, we have to go back much further.

[LadyShea]

the article isn't satisfying...reason...because it deals with a much later time, eg Roman. What we're talking about (Tribalism in Europe) is much earlier. We know of the three great Kurgen invasions into Old Europe ending with the Doric around 4th c BC. These were the outcome of earlier tribal dominance in the north and east...started in the great plains east of the Urals.
So recent explanations don't cut it, we have to go back much further.

Christmas as we know it doesn't go back that far, or at least we have no records of it. That doesn't mean people weren't grateful for the longer days or anything, but maybe they had bonfires and danced naked or something...we have no way of knowing.

[HelenM]

When I was a child I loved the traditions associated with Christmas that my family participated in. Now I'm married with children we have our own family traditions and my children get very excited about them. It's been interesting to me to see how much children love traditions.

I don't see anything wrong with voluntarily adopting and upholding traditions. As long as it's your choice.

Helen

[Beth]

I love the av with your kids, Helen. Very sweet. :)

[ceptimus]

I don't mind the holiday, and I like some of the traditions.

What grates with me is some sanctimonious prat telling me the 'real meaning of Christmas' (baby jeebus etc.)

Most of the traditions we engage in have nothing to do with Christianity. Where do decorated trees, crackers, tinsel, yule logs, turkeys and the like figure in the Christian story? That's right - they don't.

It's disgraceful, but typical of Christians, that they try to muscle in and take over existing celebrations. So the celebration of the end of the year became Christ's birthday, even though, as far as we know, he wasn't born then. And the coming of spring and celebration of fertility (with eggs etc.) became Easter.

Bloody hypocrites. But I won't let them spoil my celebrations. I tend to call it Yuletide rather than Christmas, when I remember.

[godfry n. glad]

Bloody hypocrites. But I won't let them spoil my celebrations. I tend to call it Yuletide rather than Christmas, when I remember.

I like that....It's probably truer to the actual holiday as it's observed in the modern western world.

And what do sleigh rides, chestnuts roasting on an open fire, gingerbread houses, reindeer and record retail sales have to do with baby jeebus?

Bloody tradition expropriators.

May your Yule be warm and happy.

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

the article isn't satisfying...reason...because it deals with a much later time, eg Roman. What we're talking about (Tribalism in Europe) is much earlier. We know of the three great Kurgen invasions into Old Europe ending with the Doric around 4th c BC. These were the outcome of earlier tribal dominance in the north and east...started in the great plains east of the Urals.
So recent explanations don't cut it, we have to go back much further.

Christmas as we know it doesn't go back that far, or at least we have no records of it. That doesn't mean people weren't grateful for the longer days or anything, but maybe they had bonfires and danced naked or something...we have no way of knowing.

You're saying there are no records of seasonal festivities on or around the winter solstice in the ancient world? Then how it is we know that the church triumphant expropriated existing pagan holy days wholesale in their attempt to christianize Europe? How is it that we know that modern christmas is founded on other, earlier pagan traditions?

godfry

[LadyShea]

You're saying there are no records of seasonal festivities on or around the winter solstice in the ancient world? Then how it is we know that the church triumphant expropriated existing pagan holy days wholesale in their attempt to christianize Europe? How is it that we know that modern christmas is founded on other, earlier traditions?

godfry


I provided an article that talked about the ancient Roman and Pre-Christianity celebrations where most of our current trappings originated, and onthedole said that wasn't early enough for him.

[Godless Dave]

Most of the Celtic and Germanic peoples didn't keep written records before contact with the Roman civilization; what we know comes from the records of Roman and Greek explorers and from archaeology.

[godfry n. glad]

Most of the Celtic and Germanic peoples didn't keep written records before contact with the Roman civilization; what we know comes from the records of Roman and Greek explorers and from archaeology.

Well... Did or did not the Roman and Greek "explorers" describe observing winter festivities amongst these peoples?

I'm kind of curious as to when "Christmas as we know it" came into being. It seems to me that the early Christian church never made any big deal about celebration of the birth of baby Jesus, it was a "christ mass" was it not? A day upon which to attend mass and contemplate upon the mysteries of the christ and his offer of salvation is how I understood it. No gift giving, no carol singing, no tree...none of that.

Have I been misinformed?

godfry

And...wasn't the Doric invasion of Greece before 4th century BCE? I mean, isn't that the century of Alexander of Macedon?

[livius drusus]

Check out this article (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm) from the Catholic Encyclopedia, godfry. I found it quite fascinating. It seems Christmas popped up at different times in different ways all over the place.

[dave_a]

I'm kind of curious as to when "Christmas as we know it" came into being.

I might be wrong here, but I am pretty sure that much of the trappings/customs we see originated around the time of the protestant reformation in their christian versions.

I seem to very vaguely recall some story about Martin Luther and a tree becoming the xmas tree thing

[Godless Dave]

And...wasn't the Doric invasion of Greece before 4th century BCE? I mean, isn't that the century of Alexander of Macedon?

Not sure how that's relevant to a discussion of Christmas? I was under the impression that most non-Christian xmas traditions come from northern and western Europe, ie Gaul and Germania.

[Beth]

In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis was celebrated on December 25. This was characterized by partying and feasting, along with gift giving, if I am not mistaken.


Also, when Christianity conquered Britain, the Catholic Church had to incorporate the pagan's customs, practices, and symbols into the Catholic holy days in order to make them more acceptable. I think that the Church was rather brilliant in doing that.

[LadyShea]

I'm kind of curious as to when "Christmas as we know it" came into being. It seems to me that the early Christian church never made any big deal about celebration of the birth of baby Jesus, it was a "christ mass" was it not? A day upon which to attend mass and contemplate upon the mysteries of the christ and his offer of salvation is how I understood it. No gift giving, no carol singing, no tree...none of that.

Have I been misinformed?


Much of it was hijacked from earlier winter observances, like I said this article (http://www.secweb.org/) is a good starting point...short and concise, but there is a mountain of info out there. Google "Pagan origins Christmas"

[HelenM]

I love the av with your kids, Helen. Very sweet. :)

Thanks, Beth :)

Helen