Am I the only one that thinks the Beatles kind of suck....

[beyelzu]

I mean only know a couple of beatles songs, and, although everyone said that they were the greatest ever when I was a kid, I never hear such talk. John Lennon has been dead forever, how many people still listen to that music now. Are they still the best ever by default as there are no socalled greatest bands ever since then?

Or did Nivana squash the beatles?

[dave_a]

I mean only know a couple of beatles songs, and, although everyone said that they were the greatest ever when I was a kid, I never hear such talk. John Lennon has been dead forever, how many people still listen to that music now. Are they still the best ever by default as there are no socalled greatest bands ever since then?

Or did Nivana squash the beatles?

Music, in my opinion, is not timeless. The Beetles and Elvis were the bomb in their day and Ozzy was the bomb in my day.

Today I don't really get into Ozzy's stuff the way I used to, particularly after seeing the Osournes.

What I do find myself doing is listening to the stations that play 80s music because that was a time when music played a much more important role in my life than it does today. To me the 80s were when real music was being made.

To my kid, it will be elevator music. Hell, I have already heard what used to be satanic, acid rock used as soothing background music. I don't care for the Beetles although I do like a few of their tunes, but labelling them the greatest ever? Not hardly. Elvis I thought genuinely sucked, I can't think of anything I like of his.

Again, music is not timeless. That's my opinion.

[Presence of the Passenger]

BLASPHEMY!!!!

When you hear The Beatles defined as the greatest group of all time, well it's based on a lot of factors. How many different areas of music did they create/inspire? So many forms of ROCK, how about all of pop, even disco....all generally inspired by the work of those four members. Not to mention they created the modern concert format. First ever super-group. Studio sessions that re-worked how electronic equipment for music was designed. Found new ways to put keys of music together and change mid-song.

Now it's possible some other group pioneered ONE of those things I mentioned, but none of them brought it to popular use like The Beatles. And if you disagree, pick up a copy of 'The White Album', and give it a hard listen. Then tell me how many different styles of music are in that.

[wade-w]

As musicians, they were average, at best. So I don't know that I would rate them as "Best Ever." But as Passenger says, they were innovative, and pioneered many recording techniques. As songwriters they were first rate as well. The level of influence The Beatles had on music in the 1960's is hard to imagine today.

And Dave, the 1980's??? Are you kidding?

[ApostateAbe]

The Beatles laid the foundation for what became better music later on. Rock music owes it all to the Beatles, even the bands that make better music than the Beatles. Their music was what turned the 50's into the 60's. I used to listen to the Beatles a lot, but not anymore, for two reasons:

1) I have heard too much of them.
2) All of their lyrics are pussy-whipped. Every one of their songs is degrading to men. That is a pattern I hear too often in today's music.

[Beth]

My mom said that the first song I ever sang was "I Wanna Hold Your Hand". I loved them then and still do.

[Ex-zombie]

I mean only know a couple of beatles songs, and, although everyone said that they were the greatest ever when I was a kid, I never hear such talk. John Lennon has been dead forever, how many people still listen to that music now. Are they still the best ever by default as there are no socalled greatest bands ever since then?

Or did Nivana squash the beatles?

The Beatles just suck. I too have heard about how great they are and I just don't see it. I consider their music some of the worst pop music ever made.

[Roland98]

I like the Beatles. I don't think they're the best group ever, but they have many good songs and their influence on so many other artists is undeniable.

[livius drusus]

I'm not a Beatles fan, generally speaking, but I have to admit some of their songs are just gorgeous and very much ingrained in the culture. I'm still stumbling across songs in commercials or on the radio that I vaguely know just because they're in the cultural ether but had no idea were Beatles songs.

Oh and Abe, they're called love songs and it's a pattern heard since the dawn of songmaking.

[Dingfod]

I want Abe to name one Beatles song that is degrading to men and quote lyrics of it that demonstrate his point. In other words, cite, or retract.


I didn't like the Beatles in their time (yeah, I was around then). I thought of them as pop pap, stuff only girls like. But as the years passed, I came to appreciate it more. And, it is kind of fun when one of their songs makes an appearance in a commercial or as Muzak-type background music in the grocery store or the shopping mall. I usually sing or whistle to the tune right there in the store, they did produce catchy tunes if nothing else.

[ApostateAbe]

I'm not a Beatles fan, generally speaking, but I have to admit some of their songs are just gorgeous and very much ingrained in the culture. I'm still stumbling across songs in commercials or on the radio that I vaguely know just because they're in the cultural ether but had no idea were Beatles songs.

Oh and Abe, they're called love songs and it's a pattern heard since the dawn of songmaking.Nah, the dawn of songmaking involved war drums and mating dances that determined who was the manliest of men. It wasn't always about testicles being crucified by women. We equate that with "love," but that is really only a twentieth-century western phenomenon.

[Godless Dave]

I like the Beatles and I appreciate their impact on popular music. But it's important to distinguish between the early "I Want to Hold Your Hand"/"Twist and Shout" era, which was basically the novelty of white British boys playing black American R&B, with the innovative songwriting and producing of the "Abbey Road" era - basicaly, when they became a studio-only band.

In keeping with the "it's all a matter of taste" philosophy I put forth in the rap thread, I don't insist that anyone else like or even appreciate the Beatles. But I submit that if you haven't really listened to "Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", "Abbey Road", and "The White Album", you may not have been exposed to what the Beatles were all about.

[livius drusus]

Nah, the dawn of songmaking involved war drums and mating dances that determined who was the manliest of men.

Mating dances determined who was the manliest of men, did they? Interesting. What makes you think that?

It wasn't always about testicles being crucified by women. We equate that with "love," but that is really only a twentieth-century western phenomenon.

How bizarre. If you could cite an instance of the Beatles singing about crucified testicles - even metaphorically - I'd be much obliged. Are you suggesting than an expression of love, need or loss is both intrisinsically emasculating and particular to 20th c western culture?

I'm not any kind of musical history expert, but I have heard medieval and Renaissance madrigals which would contradict any such claim, and a quick Google indicates that China (http://www.chineseliterature.com.cn/Classics/intro/thebookofsongs.htm) has a long history of love songs.

[Godless Dave]

Abe, I don't know what the hell you're talking about either.

[LadyShea]

Well let's see, I am not a huge fan, but my folks were (my middle name is Michele after the Beatles song, my brother is named Paul after Paul McCartney). I know all the words to every Beatles song. They're just part of the sondtrack of my life I guess, so I have some affection for them. I do love their version of Twist and Shout though.

[xorbie]

I certainly listen to the Beatles from time to time, but I find it patently absurd to label any one person or group as the greatest of anything. But they were undeniably great.

[Blake]

Lessee--

Getting back to the OP: bey, if all you know is a couple of Beatles songs, then you aren't qualified to say they "kind of suck," especially if the couple of songs in question are "That Boy" and "Do You Want To Know A Secret." The Beatles may have been at their most popular in their first years, and the music does contain good startling things; nonetheless, as a Beatles fan, I unreservedly say that most of the early music (roughly 1962-64) indeed sucked. Some of the most braindead lyrics ever, and that's saying a lot. Hit the middle years, however (1965-66), and things become much more interesting, with albums like Rubber Soul sporting somewhat more sophisticated lyrics and ever-more satisfying harmonies. Then, as Godless Dave has said, come the glory years, of Magical Mystery Tour and Sgt. Pepper's, the white album and Abbey Road. (With the exception of Let It Be; a couple decent songs, but Spectorized or de-Spectorized, it's by far my least favorite.)

I think the music is amazing. The lyrics ... well, aside from the love songs, they're basically all nonsense. They're good viewed as a sort of surreal poetry, but eventually I did come away with a less-than-filling feeling. Are they overrated? Perhaps, but they deserve a spot in any top lineup nonetheless.

Ex-zombie, that's not even an opinion. The Beatles do not "just suck." If you've listened to a full range of their stuff and it's just not your taste, fine, but say so.

Abe, you've gone back to smoking crack again, as not seen since your early days on the board of pontificating on the universality of men's attraction to pubescent girls. The only thing I can remotely link to what you're talking about are songs where the speaker is a jilted male (see "That Boy," above). On the other hand, such songs are more than balanced by other extremes, such as

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand, little girl--
Catch you with another man, that the end, little girl
or, of course, the infamous

Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?
Anyway, as other people have said, you can't ignore them. Their influence is beyond almost anything else (especially among other white boys with a sense of humor, like The Presidents of the United States of America, Fountains of Wayne, or the Beasties); their songs are covered constantly; and of course, they were the vanguard of the "British Invasion," that most popular re-importing of black r&b to this little racial paradise so many of us call home. Without the Beatles, there might not have been any Stones, any Floyd, Queen, Genesis, etc. etc. etc.

[Adora]

I mean only know a couple of beatles songs, and, although everyone said that they were the greatest ever when I was a kid, I never hear such talk. John Lennon has been dead forever, how many people still listen to that music now. Are they still the best ever by default as there are no socalled greatest bands ever since then?

Or did Nivana squash the beatles?

Haha no.

See, the thing with the Beatles is that there's a lot of phases to their music, and so they managed to reach more generations than short-term recent bands like Nirvana ever did. Also, they managed to come to the fore at a time when music was waiting for something new to come along- they filled a required place in the market, and managed to stay there by playing good music (comparative to the times, of course).

Personally, my favourite phase is their 'Pepper one. Yeah, the time when they were frying their brains on shit, but to me that's when they made the best music. Other people like their earlier stuff, or their later stuff, but that's the Beatles to me. Through sheer staying and market power, they're probably still the No 1 Western band of all time though.

Music is timeless to me, as long as you keep it timeless. I grew up fed on classical pieces and jazz/verve. It was only when I hit about 11 that I started to listen to pop, though I know a lot of kids who had different experiences (and gods, do the ones fed on pop and only pop have bad music tastes X_X). I learned how to play the piano because I liked the jazz works and Gershwin pieces I knew from the age of 5. I think because of that, I got a good grounding in musical basics, and so now I can basically listen to anything (I have a few issues with industrial/death/goth metal though) as long as it's musically good (ie- more than just musically sound, but it doesn't have to be musically great).

*shrugs* I see music like any sensory diet. It differs from culture to culture, and to an extent person to person. For many generations in the Western world, the Beatles have been white sliced bread for the ears. They simply don't make bands with that staying power anymore, in the pop, indie, alternative, whatever scenes. We consume music nowadays the same way we consume most resources and sensory experiences- quick and disposably. I get angry with my brother whenever he only listens to 1/4 of songs in Winamp, but that's the generation he's grown up in- phone ringtones and MTV are the basic sources of the major consumption of music now, and a lot of music hasn't adapted. It's possible to get people of his age to sit through a whole song not of the mainstream genres and make them like it (I know, I've done it with an English folk ballad by Jim Moray) but it's got to have something special that appeals to the individual.

Er, so, yeah. Long story short: Yes, they are, kind of, the greatest band ever.

[ApostateAbe]

livius, you asked me to cite an instance of the Beatles singing about crucified testicles. Well, I hear it in just about every second Beatles song. I haven't heard one love song by the Beatles that gave a man's pride respect. Here is an illustrative example for you:
No Reply

This happened once before
When I came to your door
No reply
They said it wasn't you
But I saw you peep through your window

I saw the light, I saw the light
I know that you saw me
As I looked up to see your face

I tried to telephone
They said you were not home
That's a lie
'Cause I know where you've been
I saw you walk in your door

I nearly died, I nearly died
'Cause you walked hand in hand
With another man in my place

If I were you'd realise that I
Love you more than any other guy
And I'll forgive the lies that I
Heard before when you gave me no reply
I've tried to telephone
They said you were not home
That's a lie
'Cause I know where you've been
I saw you walk in your door

I nearly died, I nearly died
'Cause you walked hand in hand
With another man in my place

No reply, no reply As you were reading those lyrics, you couldn't help but get a mental image of a pair of testicles being fed to the ducks. It is about a man who sees his woman going out with another man, yet he continues to hang on to hope that she will come back, like the kind of wuss you would find holding a purse in the mall outside a woman's changing room. Here are additional grotesque examples:

Eight Days a Week
Girl
Chains
Chains, my baby's got me locked up in chains
And they ain't the kind
that you can see
Woh, these chains of love
got a hold on me, yeah
pa-lum-pa-lum-pa-lum-pa

Chains, well I can't break away from these chains
Can't run around
'cause I'm not free
Woh, these chains of love
Won't let me be, yeah I don't even need to supply my own imagery on that one. The Beatles practically spell it out that being love means having chains around your nads.

Blake, you pointed out two songs on the other extreme. The problem is that I hadn't heard of either of them before now. One of them was made with only two of the Beatles, and the other was regarded by the artists John Lennon as his worst. There is no popular Beatles song in which male figues are spared any shred of dignity. Apparently, only the pussified songs made the charts, so the real problem is the pussified consumer public.

There are still some Beatles songs that are cool in my book, such as Across the Universe, Let It Be, Imagine, and Norwegian Wood.

[xorbie]

Oh, for fucks sake. That was beyond pathetic.

[seebs]

I'm not quite getting it.

What's really weird, to me, is that the last time I saw someone expressing notions like this about manly respect, it was a fundamentalist Christian. I remember his explanation of how he figured the thing to do with your wife was, at some point, beat the crap out of her and not give her any money, just so she knows how bad it'll be if you're mad, then be all nice to her as long as she's obedient.

I am very curious, Abe. Is this a male/female thing, or do you think both parties should be... Well, I honestly don't know what you want.

[Adora]

Well, I hear it in just about every second Beatles song.
And every second song ever written. Music is like newspapers- good news doesn't sell.

Nah, the dawn of songmaking involved war drums and mating dances that determined who was the manliest of men.

Oh please. Put your hands over your head and step away from the Robert Bly. Jesus fucking mythopoetic bullshit... You can't tell me you honestly believe that was the only music written by men at the "dawn of songmaking"? I mean, for fucks sake, even animals sing for their love.

[wei yau]

Abe, you seem like a nice enough person, but I'm not getting you here.

I mean, if you equate unrequited love or just plain "being in love" with being less manly, I think the problem may lie more with your perception of love than with the Beatles out on a crusade to render every man impotent.

As several have pointed out, love songs and especially ones about unrequited love all kind of deal with the same themes. You love someone so much, you'd do anything for them, you can't live without them, you think they are the bestest ever, you're jealous when they are with someone else...blah blah blah.

It's all about silly love songs...not emasculating love songs.

[livius drusus]

Sorry Abe, but I don't think bemoaning lost or unrequited love is the equivalent of feeding one's balls to ducks. Thanks for clarifying that's what you meant, though.

[D. Scarlatti]

You can blame Gerry Goffin and Carole King for Chains.

And Bob Dylan introduced the Beatles to smoking pot, by the way.

[livius drusus]

A woman co-wrote that song? I take it back, then. Clearly it's all about the testicle-grinding.

[D. Scarlatti]

John Lennon has been dead forever ...

24 years today.

[D. Scarlatti]

If you could cite an instance of the Beatles singing about crucified testicles - even metaphorically - I'd be much obliged.

Christ, you know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be.
The way things are going
They're going to crucify me [balls].

The Ballad of John and Yoko

[viscousmemories]

The way things are going
They're going to crucify me [balls].
:biglaugh:

I like the Beatles a lot, but I forget they had so many phases. When I think of the Beatles, I think of the White Album, Sgt. Pepper era. I'm not sure what era Eleanor Rigby comes from, but we sang it in Jr. High choir and I love it. Funnily, when I saw the lyrics on my niece's blog recently I told her how much I like it and she said "yeah, it's my favorite Limp Bizkit song". :doh:

I think emotional desperation when a romantic relationship is severed is an indication of a normal functioning psyche. I don't think a song about a man pining for the woman who left him for another man is remotely emasculating, I think it's representative of a healthy psychological response to abandonment.

[Godless Dave]

I think emotional desperation when a romantic relationship is severed is an indication of a normal functioning psyche. I don't think a song about a man pining for the woman who left him for another man is remotely emasculating, I think it's representative of a healthy psychological response to abandonment.

Whether it's healthy or not is irrelevant; the songs are about how people feel, not about how the songwriter thinks they should feel in an ideal world.

[viscousmemories]

Whether it's healthy or not is irrelevant; the songs are about how people feel, not about how the songwriter thinks they should feel in an ideal world.
I probably should've avoided the use of the word 'healthy', since I didn't intend to have an argument about what constitutes psychological 'health'. My point was that feeling scared and desperate when abandoned is a typical emotional response, so I disagree that singing about it indicates a loss of manhood.

[Goliath]

A woman co-wrote that song? I take it back, then. Clearly it's all about the testicle-grinding.

Well, hey, men who are into that kind of thing have to have some songs, right? :wink: :D

[Dingfod]

Sorry Abe, but I don't think bemoaning lost or unrequited love is the equivalent of feeding one's balls to ducks. Thanks for clarifying that's what you meant, though.I think Abe has never been deeply in romantic love then lost that love to another or those lyrics would've struck home just as they did for me. I pined deeply for my lost love for years. Did that make me less of a man? I don't think so, I went on with life, even got married to someone I liked quite a bit at the time, to whom I am still married. However, if that old love of mine were to search for me and show up at my doorstep, I'd have an immediate dilemma like no other ever on my hands, even after 28 years of marriage. That's how deeply I was in love.

Like Tennyson said "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all."

[Blake]

True 'nuff, Warren, plus there's that whole hyperbole thing. Abe's gone from saying it's every single song, to practically every other song, based on essentially one example, to "the popular songs." (Sorry, Chains don't cut it; those lyrics are insanely generalized, not to mention, chains of love are a cliche, they're so overused. Not to mention, I would call neither Chains nor No Reply exactly popular Beatles tunes.)

There is no popular Beatles song in which male figues are spared any shred of dignity. Apparently, only the pussified songs made the charts, so the real problem is the pussified consumer public.
Right, pussy songs like this one:

If I fell in love with you, would you promise to be true, and help me understand,
'Cause I've been in love before, and I found that love was more than just holding hands.

If I give my heart to you, I must be sure from the very start
That you will love me more than her ....
Basically, "I'll break up with her and go out with you if you'll put out." Oh, and Helter Skelter; yeah, that was a pretty pussified song.

Seriously, I'm having a hard time thinking of any besides "That Boy," "No Reply," and "Girl." "Eight Days a Week" is just about being insanely in love. What about "Blackbird"? "Revolution"? "Yellow Submarine"? "I've Just Seen a Face"? "Taxman"?

[Goliath]

Seriously, I'm having a hard time thinking of any besides "That Boy," "No Reply," and "Girl." "Eight Days a Week" is just about being insanely in love. What about "Blackbird"? "Revolution"? "Yellow Submarine"? "I've Just Seen a Face"? "Taxman"?

Or "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", or "I am The Walrus", or "A Day in the Life", or "Life Goes On", or "Here Comes the Sun", or "In My Life" or "Hey Jude", etc, etc, etc...? Where is the gnashing of testicles in those songs?

[HelenM]

I don't think there's any doubt about the influence the Beatles had on popular music. My father just wrote to me about a recent TV program about how innovative they were musically. I quite like a lot of their music. Ultimately I prefer classical music, but I am often in the mood to listen to pop music too.

Sorry Abe, but I don't think bemoaning lost or unrequited love is the equivalent of feeding one's balls to ducks. Thanks for clarifying that's what you meant, though.

I see the Beatles songs in question as about the power of love; and it is the power of love on men because the Beatles were men, so they wrote from a man's point of view. I don't see that saying "love has a powerful effect on me" and using illustrations of that such as chains is demeaning to men, per se. I can think of songs where they depicted a woman taking advantage of a man in love with her (Girl) but I think they were simply describing one thing that can happen rather than claiming this always happens when a man is in love with a woman.

I think Abe has never been deeply in romantic love then lost that love to another or those lyrics would've struck home just as they did for me. I pined deeply for my lost love for years. Did that make me less of a man? I don't think so, I went on with life, even got married to someone I liked quite a bit at the time, to whom I am still married. However, if that old love of mine were to search for me and show up at my doorstep, I'd have an immediate dilemma like no other ever on my hands, even after 28 years of marriage. That's how deeply I was in love.

Like Tennyson said "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all."

Warren, I believe you were deeply in love but that was almost thirty years ago. Would you really consider throwing away all all you have with your wife just because a woman shows up on your doorstep who you once had a relationship with? I think holding onto past hopes and dreams conflicts with having the best marriage relationship possible with your wife. I hope you can let the past be the past, putting all your energy and commitment into your marriage and none of it into fantasies about a woman you haven't seen for decades. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do believe that's possible no matter how deeply you were in love 30 or so years ago.

Helen

[Godless Dave]

Not to speak for Warren, but I get the impression "all he has" with his wife isn't very much. But the situation is purely hypothetical anyway. Sheep don't live 30 years.

[viscousmemories]

Not to speak for Warren, but I get the impression "all he has" with his wife isn't very much. But the situation is purely hypothetical anyway. Sheep don't live 30 years.
:biglaugh:

[Dingfod]

I'm not really wanting to turn this into a...nother Warren's marriage thread, nobody needs that. Let's just say that I know what passionate love and heartache over losing it is all about and that I never had the same feeling for my wife. I will not discuss it further here.

[HelenM]

I'm not really wanting to turn this into a...nother Warren's marriage thread, nobody needs that. Let's just say that I know what passionate love and heartache over losing it is all about and that I never had the same feeling for my wife. I will not discuss it further here.

I apologize for the derailment and I respect your wish not to discuss it here.

Helen

[Dingfod]

No problem. No need to apologize.

[Presence of the Passenger]

so.....how about those influential Beatles?

[D. Scarlatti]

Aren't the Beatles even Ozzy's favorite band?

As an unrepentant Beatles lover, I'll take you all on. Having said that, there are two or three post-Beatles Paul McCartney tunes I refuse to defend.

[Ex-zombie]

Aren't the Beatles even Ozzy's favorite band?


That's not much of an endorsement considering Ozzy's mental capacity. :wink:

[Shaguar]

No you are not the only one.
They made few good "POP" songs and one or two more profound ones. The cult of John Lennon drives me nuts, I was in New york on the anniversary of his death one year and inadvertantly pushed through a crowd of japanese tourists paying homage over some tablet laid in the ground, they went nuts when I accidentally walked on it. He was a good songwriter that's it, not a prophet. I mean taking to his bed for a couple of weeks really solved world problems did'nt it.

McCartney, never forget "Ebony and Ivory", "Mull of Kintyre" and the frog chorus.

The most talented but least vaunted was George who was really spiritual and opposed to psuedo-spiritual.

[livius drusus]

I see your Ebony and Ivory and raise you a Silly Love Songs.

[Shaguar]

I call, but if I can change singer can I raise with "Lady in Red" Chris deburgh

[livius drusus]

If that's how you want it, okay. But I should warn you, I have Gilbert O'Sullivan as King Lear (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7790#post7790) up my sleeve.

[D. Scarlatti]

Is anyone up to explaining why the Beatles suck?

[Godless Dave]

No you are not the only one.
They made few good "POP" songs and one or two more profound ones. The cult of John Lennon drives me nuts, I was in New york on the anniversary of his death one year and inadvertantly pushed through a crowd of japanese tourists paying homage over some tablet laid in the ground, they went nuts when I accidentally walked on it. He was a good songwriter that's it, not a prophet. I mean taking to his bed for a couple of weeks really solved world problems did'nt it.

This doesn't seem like you are saying the Beatles suck, it seems like you are saying the Beatles are not the greatest band in the universe ever. It's not the same thing.

[D. Scarlatti]

Or did Nivana squash the beatles?

I forgot to mention, this is actually the funniest remark in this thread.

I mean, Nirvana wrote like, two songs. Good songs for sure, but not exactly the most musically adventurous band in the world.

That's the problem with most bands these days. They play the same fucking song over and over and over and expect people to keep buying it. I don't think anyone can really accuse the Beatles of that.

[RedShift]

I am not a huge fan, and as a fully paid up Dylan Obsessive I have had plenty of slad down arguments with Beatle nuts about who is better.

However there is no way you can dimiss their influence on music even to this day. It was just huge.