Captain America is dead

[TomJoe]

Captain American is dead. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html)

[wei yau]

Oh. Damnit.

He's one of my favorite superheroes ever. This is worse than the death of Superman.

Here are some more details:



In the Marvel Comics 2006 Civil War crossover, Captain America leads the Anti-Registration faction and resistance movement, becoming a fugitive in the process and pitting himself against the heroes of the Pro-Registration movement, including his former friend Iron Man. He adopts the alias "Brett Hendrick", a mall security guard, to avoid government detection.[35] As the War continues, Rogers becomes more and more extreme in his desire to win, including allowing the Punisher to join his "Secret Avengers," (though he does not condone the man's willingness to kill) and working (albeit reluctantly) with the Kingpin.[36] In the last issue of the core Civil War series, realizing that his fight against the Registration Act is endangering civilians, he removes and drops his mask to surrender as Steve Rogers. He gives the anti-Registration side the order to stand down. As Captain America is led away, the Punisher picks up the discarded mask.

In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.

[TomJoe]

Wow, do you think the Punisher/Frank Castle will become the new Captain America?

[wei yau]

Probably, for a little while. Although, that might be too reminiscent of Cap being replaced by John Walker (Super Patriot) and Batman replaced by Azrael.

I'm gonna have to go the comic book shop today and pick up Captain American #25.

This is gonna sound silly, but this news has really gotten me down. Cap was one of the most principled heroes in comic books. Sure, he could be cheesy at times, but he was always sincere and genuine.

As far as iconic heroes go, he was the Marvel equivalent of DC's Superman. The first hero, the one that most would follow without question.

Damn, this really sucks.

[TomJoe]

Same here. I'll stop by on the way home and pick it up.

I like Captain America, and it sucks that they had to kill him off. I'd say it's a definite response to the way they feel the country is going ... that principled behavior on the USA's part is dead, so Captain American may as well be dead too.

[wei yau]

Of course, now that this has hit the news, there will be a run on that issue. I wonder if I'll even be able to pick it up. Chances are that stores ordered the issue heavily, even if they didn't know that Cap would be killed, simply because of the continuation of the Civil War storyline.

I agree that the political and ideological atmosphere in this country was a primary cause of this storyline. But, that's the great thing about Captain America, even during the worst times, there was always hope that his principles would remain true. And that we could always return to those principles, as long as Cap was around to lead the way.

I feel the same about this country. There must always be a way to set things right...but, maybe that's just not true anymore.

[ChuckF]

Fucking Iranians!

[parliamentFunk]

These guys are dorks, heh. Mom, where's my Star Wars Episode I DVD? Nevermind, it was here under my Rush "Fly by Night" album.
:geek:

[HighOnHotSauce]

I was never a big Captain America fan. I don't know why; I just wasn't. :shrug:

[wei yau]

Well, I've picked up the issue and...a few more for context.

Captain America: #22-25: Drums of War storyline, ties-in with the Civil War series

Civil War #1, #3-7: The main series depicting the events that lead up to Cap's death. The store didn't have #2, so I have to go hunting at one of the other three comic book shops in the area. Apparently it's a hot issue because of Spider-Man unmasking himself. I'll be fine with a reprint.

I'll probably also have to pick up Civil War: Frontline, a companion series to Civil War.

[The Lone Ranger]

While Cap was never my favorite Marvel Superhero, I always liked how utterly principled he was. He was a true idealist, always trying to do the right thing to the best of his ability and genuinely wanting to make the world a better place through his actions.

That there seems to be no place for such a character in the modern world seems awfully damning, if you ask me.



I like Captain America, and it sucks that they had to kill him off. I'd say it's a definite response to the way they feel the country is going ... that principled behavior on the USA's part is dead, so Captain American may as well be dead too.


Cheers,

Michael

[roastelk]

I didnt know captain america was considered a major comic. I figured it was just another run of the mill comic book.

but then the only comics i ever purchased where the odd mad magazine. I never bothered with comic books because they're too expensive...$5+ fo a 20 page book, thats half advertising?

[erimir]

Hmmmm... Don't open your copy of that one!

It'll probably be worth lots o' money in 30 years.

I'm probably gonna buy the Civil War series as a graphic novel when it comes out.

Also, they can kill off the Cap'n, but they best not kill off Spider-Man!

Beware, significant spoiler from a recent issue:
They did kill off his Aunt May, however.

[The Lone Ranger]

They killed off Aunt May? Those bastards!
There goes half of Peter's angst.

I'll probably buy "Civil War" too, but only when it comes out as a graphic novel.

I like to flip through comics at the bookstore, but I never buy single issues. It's far cheaper and more efficient to buy them as graphic novels, and all the good story lines get collected into graphic novels sooner or later.

Cheers,

Michael

[erimir]

Ok, actually, I don't know if she's dead. I just know she got shot in the stomach

[peepnklown]

It wasn’t the REAL Captain America, it was a clone.
I am more of a Marvel fan myself. :D

[erimir]

Captain America is a Marvel character.

[maddog]

We were never allowed to have comic books. In some cases, you don't miss what you don't really know.

#1123

[beyelzu]

wow, that sucks maddog.

cuz captain america kicked ass.

he was the american ideal.

[Petra]

Hmmmm... Don't open your copy of that one!

It'll probably be worth lots o' money in 30 years.

If you are talking about the issue where Capt. America gets snuffed, then unlikely: too many will be in print, with too many people taking care of that issue in case it's worth a load. It just won't be a rare issue, and because of that, it won't be worth a fortune.

However, if you have earlier issues of Capt. America - especially the very early issues - then you may be in the pink. Look after those ones (that's where the money'll be), 'cos the assassination issue won't be worth much at all as there'll be too many of them in circulation.

:twocents:

[MonCapitan2002]

Hmmmm... Don't open your copy of that one!

It'll probably be worth lots o' money in 30 years.

I'm probably gonna buy the Civil War series as a graphic novel when it comes out.

Also, they can kill off the Cap'n, but they best not kill off Spider-Man!

Beware, significant spoiler from a recent issue:
They did kill off his Aunt May, however.
Didn't they kill her off years ago or was that retconned out?

[erimir]

I think they did actually.

But then there was some clone business or something like that.

It's not yet known what her fate is in this storyline.

[wei yau]

:live:

Pardon the thread necromancy, I assure you that I've read the disclaimer.

Besides, it's entirely appropriate, as this thread resurrection is to announce Captain America Lives (http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.1640.Captain_America_Lives).

It's certainly not Steve Rogers, don't know who it is yet. But, whoever he is, he's armed...with a gun.

[Naru]

America...FUCK YEAH!

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Didn't stay dead? Now there's a shocking development in the world of comic book plot devices! ;)

[Novowels]

Good lord that new costume is atrocious.

"Hey I know, let's make him SHINY. And... give him.... BLACK PANTS."

Somebody tell Alex Ross to stick to wanking all over his little Silver Age homages, and don't let him "design" anything new ever again.

[Kyuss Apollo]

They should definitely get Birdman to defend Red Skull and Crossbones.


Then justice will be served.

[The Lone Ranger]

Apparently, the "new" Captain America is .... Bucky Barnes Now whowouldathunkit?


I haven't been following the "Civil War" series, but I'll occasionally pick up an issue in the bookstore and glance through it. On the other hand, I do read the new Thor series by JMS, and I'm liking it so far.

There are some ... interesting ... things going on.


The Civil War came to an end (at least, more or less) when Captain America (the leader of the resistance) realized that all the fighting between the superhero factions was causing plenty of damage, and was -- understandably -- engendering disgust and distrust among the non-superhero population. Cap's philosophy was that the whole point of being a superhero was to serve and protect the non-superheroes of the world. So, in his view, if their "Civil War" was causing real damage, it was necessary to stop it -- even if that meant that his side should surrender.

Such is what I've gathered, anyway.


Okay, but then a reporter actually told Captain America (before he was shot and apparently killed, obviously) that he was "out of touch" with modern American values, what with his devotion of such "quaint" values as truth, honor, and justice. Seriously.

So, it's hard not to think that Marvel's killing-off of Captain America, probably their most idealistic character, is at least partially meant as social commentary.


That brings us to Thor. One reason Thor has long been one of my favorite comics characters is because, like Cap, he has a deeply-rooted sense of justice and honor.

Thor was not on Earth during Civil War, so he took no direct part in any of it. (Long story ...) Given that he's literally a god and arguably the most powerful being on the planet -- and given that it has been explicitly shown in the past that he's capable of defeating pretty much every other Marvel superbeing -- his presence during the Civil War would certainly have been a crucially-important factor.

During the Civil War, the pro-registration forces used a sample of Thor's DNA that they'd somehow acquired to create a Terminator-style clone of him. (That is, it was partially biological, partially cybernetic.) They used the clone to defeat many of the anti-registration heroes. (The clone was eventually destroyed by Hercules, who regarded it as an abomination and a mockery of his friend, Thor.)


So, now Thor is back. Soon after his return, he went to New Orleans, where he lamented the loss of life and property from Hurricane Katrina. He noted that if he'd been present, he could have stopped the hurricane. Then he wondered why the rest of Earth's superheroes hadn't pooled their efforts to do so. Were they so wrapped up in their "Civil War" that they'd abandoned their committment to the people of Earth?


About this time, Iron Man showed up -- the leader of the pro-registration forces. Iron Man actually told Thor that things are different now, and that you either work with the U.S. Government or you'll be considered an enemy and dealt with accordingly.

He made it perfectly clear that the government and the pro-registration forces could -- and would -- destroy Asgard (Thor's restored home) and all who dwelt there if Thor refused to join forces with them.


Thor was not amused. He pointed out that the pro-registration forces had imprisoned and even killed those who had refused to join them. He suggested that if they were so keen to control all super-powered beings that they'd let things like Katrina happen to the very people they were supposed to be protecting, then perhaps they weren't worthy of his respect, much less his alliance. So he refused to join up.

Then he got pissed. He railed against how they had "violated" his person by using his DNA -- without his knowledge or permission -- to create an "abomination." That they had claimed this "abomination" was him, and they had used it to kill and imprison others.


Then Iron Man did something really stupid. Relying on the "if you aren't with us, you're against us" mode of reasoning, he fired a full-power disruptor blast at Thor from point-blank range. Presumably, he hoped to cripple Thor or kill him outright.

When the smoke cleared, Thor was still standing, without a scratch on him -- and looking at Iron Man as if to say, "Have you completely forgotten who you're dealing with?". The ensuing fight lasted about 2 seconds, as Thor more or less literally fried Iron Man's armour and then ripped it off him.



***

So, like I said, I haven't been following the "Civil War" plotline very carefully. In the beginning, it seemed to me a not-unreasonable idea to require people who can literally level cities with a thought to register their abilities and receive training in how to use their powers responsibily. Also, given that they risk their lives on a daily basis for the sake of the general public, it'd be nice if they were paid and guaranteed pensions.

But if they're going around and killing those who oppose this violation of civil liberties, and if they're so wrapped up in trying to control everyone with superhuman powers that they're allowing the very public they're supposed to be serving to suffer through things like Katrina when the superhero community could easily have stopped these disasters, and if they're adopting a rigid "you're either with us or against us" attitude -- then I've gotta agree with Thor. The pro-registration people have completely lost sight of what superheroes are supposed to be all about.

Such are my impressions, anyway.

Cheers,

Michael

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I don't bother with most of the mainstream titles much anymore, but I have to say I am enjoying the hell out of Thor right now. Watching him peel Iron Man was bliss. :)

[The Lone Ranger]

Ditto on all three points. After hearing Iron Man's smug and sanctimonious "You're either with us or against us" speech and hearing him more or less literally threaten to kill anyone who didn't join up -- I was so happy to see Thor clean his clock but good, and then turn his back on IM in disgust.

Cheers,

Michael

[erimir]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's back.

:sadno: Those comic book writers can't stick with anything, can they?

[beyelzu]

How did they retcon him still being alive?

[Gonzo]

[Thanks] Obama.

[erimir]

It wasn't a normal gun, it was a gun that uh transported and stuck him in a specific space and time?

I dunno, I didn't read the story, I just found out through Wiki that they brought him back last summer.

[beyelzu]

wow that was the shittiest retcon ever, I just read it on wiki.

[Shake]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's back.

:sadno: Those comic book writers can't stick with anything, can they?

Taking cues from the writers of soaps, no doubt.

[MonCapitan2002]

It figures that they'd bring him back.

[Deadlokd]

So I just got hold of a pack of comics to do with the Civil War. But there's like Hulk and She-Hulf and Spiderman in the pack and I don't know what order to read them in. Can anyone help?

[Doctor X]

Marvel Comics basically always sucked, yes.

--J.D.

[The Lone Ranger]

At least that stupid "Dark Reign" nonsense is apparently over. [The entire premise of which, as far as I can tell, was that absolutely everyone in the Marvel Universe suffered a loss of about 100 IQ points.]

Maybe Marvel comics will get back to being about good, decent, and interesting characters again, instead of a whole bunch of psychopaths who should be shot into the Sun.


Oh, and apparently Steve Rogers has given up being Captain America. He's now the world's "top cop" or something like that. Apparently, the idea is to put somebody who has a strong sense of ethics in that position. Well, I guess we'll see how long that lasts ...


Cheers,

Michael

[Crumb]

So I just got hold of a pack of comics to do with the Civil War. But there's like Hulk and She-Hulf and Spiderman in the pack and I don't know what order to read them in. Can anyone help?
Start with the election of Lincoln. :blank:

[erimir]

Random idea: one of those alternate universe ideas, along the lines of the Marvel 1602 series, but on the premise that superhero comics started a century early, in the North... so you'd perhaps have Captain Union rather than Captain America, etc.

[Adam]

wow that was the shittiest retcon ever, I just read it on wiki.

Did it involve a timeline-altering deal with the devil as an extreme form of marriage anullment? If not, then it is not the shittiest recon ever. Runner up, maybe.

[The Lone Ranger]

The only people in the comics who ever stay dead are Thomas and Martha Wayne.

[Ymir's blood]

I pretty much gave up on corporate owned characters in the early 90s because of the gimmicks, retcons and 'new vision' stuff. Someone with talent may have created the character, a good writer might introduce new ideas but then some hack writer (or editor) takes over and flushes all the good down the toilet. Even if the next team is better, it takes more retcons to fix things, meaning that years worth of continuity got dumped. Whatever.

[Adam]

The only people in the comics who ever stay dead are Thomas and Martha Wayne.

I don't think Uncle Ben has returned from the grave yet, either.

[Ymir's blood]

The only people in the comics who ever stay dead are Thomas and Martha Wayne.

I don't think Uncle Ben has returned from the grave yet, either.
Didn't they bring him back and then later retcon it into a clone?

[erimir]

The only people in the comics who ever stay dead are Thomas and Martha Wayne.

The only people in the comics who ever stay dead are Thomas and Martha Wayne.

I don't think Uncle Ben has returned from the grave yet, either.That gives me some ideas for exciting new Batman and Spider-Man stories!

Perhaps a cross-over!

[Deadlokd]

DC and Marvel in one place?! Good lord! First it was Undulatingkneetrembling Cockschlocker now this? Can't you all wait for the Large Hadron Collider to kill us all?!

[Gonzo]

http://www.defectiveyeti.com/images/sm.jpg

[erimir]

That comic has molested my image of Spider-Man.

See the whole thing here (http://www.ep.tc/problems/fifteen/)!

[Doctor X]

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u264/DoctorX_photos/ReallyWrong.jpg

--J.D.

[Deadlokd]

Wow, Spidey doing PSAs.