Brian Tamaki & Destiny Church - Profitting on the Prophet.

[Petra]

I fear and loathe this guy. He's a nasty thug, vain and greedy. I think he sees himself as a kind of Cromwell, and aspires to be "Lord Protector". Or perhaps he sees himself as the Godfather, a kind of Mafia for God.

Anyway, I read this brief article in the News this morning and it summed up for me the ambitions and scruples of Evangelist leaders. They're arseholes - fight them, don't let them win. Scumbags.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3125932a10,00.html

In a previous visit, Long told a Destiny congregation that the church would be "ruling New Zealand" before its 10th anniversary.

"That means you control the wealth, that means you control the riches, that means you control the politics, that means you control the social order, that means that you are in charge," he said.

Fuck them. Over my dead body they'll be in charge. Scumbags. :fuming: :fuming: :fuming:

[seebs]

Wow. It's like a cross between blasphemy and idolatry, all rolled up into one! Your one stop shop for false doctrines of every sort.

[Goliath]

Do I really need to keep reminding you, seebs, that each and every one of these xians that you call "blasphemers" and "idolators" is just as much of a xian as you are?

[Petra]

Wow. It's like a cross between blasphemy and idolatry, all rolled up into one! Your one stop shop for false doctrines of every sort.

Ain't that the truth.

Unfortunately, Destiny is growing like a cancer cell and their political aspirations have been taken directly from the US christofascist scene.

To quote Destiny's political activist wing - Enough is Enough!

http://www.web.ca/~jharnick2/downund2.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/destiny_churches/destiny_churches4.html

[Desert Dweller]

those without any real ideas, any real sense of how to get ahead, anything really to contribute will always seek to use an authority for their own ends.
What better authority than the good book, it's so hard to argue against a third party authority and all the stupid sheep can be sucked in easily.
This guy is just a cheapskate...he wants the power but doesn't want to come up with any original or workable ideas to gain his ends. He sux.

[seebs]

Do I really need to keep reminding you, seebs, that each and every one of these xians that you call "blasphemers" and "idolators" is just as much of a xian as you are?

I'm aware. So? What's it matter whether someone's Christian or not?

I just bought a DVD burner. My second this week; I'm upgrading a couple of my computers. That's $200 I've spent getting DVD burners this week. On the other hand, I know that there are people starving. But I spent $200 on DVD burners so I could make backups more conveniently.

I don't need to look far afield at all to find behavior I find morally problematic.

[Goliath]

I'm aware. So?

So why are you deriding these people when they're just as xian as you are?

[seebs]

I'm aware. So?

So why are you deriding these people when they're just as xian as you are?

Because, as I said, what does being Christian have to do with anything? Their teachings are clearly harmful to those around them, and (to the best of my knowledge) are untrue as well.

[Goliath]

Because, as I said, what does being Christian have to do with anything?

Because they're (i.e. the people that you derided in your first post in this thread) are xians, you are a xian, and you're making statements that directly imply that they are not as xian as you are.


Their teachings are clearly harmful to those around them


Now you begin to understand how I feel about xianity.

[seebs]

Because, as I said, what does being Christian have to do with anything?

Because they're (i.e. the people that you derided in your first post in this thread) are xians, you are a xian, and you're making statements that directly imply that they are not as xian as you are.

I'm honestly not sure that "as Christian as ..." means anything.

I think I can make a reasonable case that they are not doing as good a job of following Jesus, but hey, I could be wrong. But who cares? Comparisons aren't particularly informative. Those actions are visibly wrong; we can oppose them without worrying about what else is wrong.


Their teachings are clearly harmful to those around them


Now you begin to understand how I feel about xianity.

How, yes. Why, not really.

[Goliath]

I'm honestly not sure that "as Christian as ..." means anything.

It does only in the sense that if we denote the set of all people by P, then we may think of "xian" as a function from Px[0,infinity) to {0,1} where xian(x,t)=1 if person x is a xian at time t and 0 otherwise. Essentially, it's just a characteristic function that can change with time.


How, yes. Why, not really.

And that's the difference between us.

[Desert Dweller]

What's it matter whether someone's Christian or not?

Well in this case it matters because it involves would-be politicians lobbying to people who ID as 'good Xtians"; but not for any purpose spoken of by the Man.
It involves 'spin' in contemporary language, to bull shit people into blindly giving away their vote because candidate represents 'Xtian values'. Seems to be a growing phenomenon in the west...as the system breaks down people grasp at anything to stop change happening. So for the first time 'religiosity' is entering our Parliament, here and in NZ. It sux. In our election this year a member was voted in from a new party called "Family First". Should have heard the poor old happy clappers...they thought something would happen, but of course it's clutching at straws and doesn't work.
The fact that they USE a third party authority in this manner is bad enought in itself but to use it for political gain deserves to be put down.

[Zoot]

Seebs isn't deriding them for being Christian; he's deriding them for being assholes.

Tamaki is like terrorism - a symptom of ignorance and poverty.

[Zoot]

I think I can make a reasonable case that they are not doing as good a job of following Jesus, but hey, I could be wrong. But who cares? Comparisons aren't particularly informative. Those actions are visibly wrong; we can oppose them without worrying about what else is wrong.

To Brian Tamaki and his crew, those actions are very visibly right.

[Goliath]

Seebs isn't deriding them for being Christian; he's deriding them for being assholes.


Yes, but you, like seebs, again miss the glaringly obvious: seebs is just as much of a xian as Tamaki. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

[seebs]

Seebs isn't deriding them for being Christian; he's deriding them for being assholes.


Yes, but you, like seebs, again miss the glaringly obvious: seebs is just as much of a xian as Tamaki. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

So what?

I could say "Goliath misses the glaringly obvious: He is just as much of a biped as Tamaki."

What I guess we're missing is: WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?

Who cares whether that guy is Christian or not, or whether I am or not? It's totally irrelevant.

[Zoot]

edited:

Seebs done made my point first.

[Goliath]

So what?

So, to borrow a phrase from your book of hate: take the plank out of your own eye, motherfucker.


What I guess we're missing is: WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?


Ah, there's that hateful temper of yours that I've seen so often, but that others don't seem to remember.

[Petra]

Put that post back, Zoot.

You did make the same point as seebs, but in a different way. That can only add to the point, not detract from it.

And yes, Tamaki is an asshole. A prize one. And he's having a growth spurt. He'll be almost goatse by Easter at this rate.

[Zoot]

Okay, I've decided Goliath is being secretly hilarious.

Luna, you know, there's every possibility Tamaki believes everything he says, and just thinks it's tremendously good luck (God's blessing?) that what is right in the world also happens to be impoverished Kiwis giving him 10% of their earnings (gross).

[seebs]

So what?

So, to borrow a phrase from your book of hate: take the plank out of your own eye, motherfucker.

Okay, I'm still not getting it.


What I guess we're missing is: WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?


Ah, there's that hateful temper of yours that I've seen so often, but that others don't seem to remember.

I'm just trying to emphasize the question.

Basically, in what way is this circumstance different from, say, the circumstance where a non-Christian criticizes these people?

What does whether or not I'm Christian matter? Surely, hypocrisy is just as wrong no matter who does it.

[Goliath]

Okay, I've decided Goliath is being secretly hilarious.


:eyebrow2:

Apparently, it's a secret to me, too, because I meant every word that I've said in this thread.

But then again, a substantative response would require listening to me, and that would be too much to ask from you, wouldn't it, Zoot?

[Goliath]

Okay, I'm still not getting it.


You're calling him less of a xian than you are, but he is just as much of a xian as you are. Get it through your thick skull.


I'm just trying to emphasize the question.

Uh-huh...and I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot.


Basically, in what way is this circumstance different from, say, the circumstance where a non-Christian criticizes these people?


Because, guess the fuck what?! I wouldn't be criticizing Tamaki for being a xian.

You know what? I'm done with you, and I'm done with this thread.

[Zoot]

Okay, I've decided Goliath is being secretly hilarious.


:eyebrow2:

Apparently, it's a secret to me, too, because I meant every word that I've said in this thread.

But then again, a substantative response would require listening to me, and that would be too much to ask from you, wouldn't it, Zoot?

LOL!

[Zoot]

Let's say there are two definitions of Christian.

One is a dictionary definition, which amounts to "someone who calls themselves a Christian."

The other is a subjective definition, varying from denomination to denomination, if not person to person, meaning "someone who is correct about Jesus and what Jesus taught."

Seebs and Tamaki are equally Christians in the first sense.

In the second sense, to Seebs, Tamaki has false doctrine and is "less Christian".

Similarly, in the second sense, to Tamaki, Seebs has false doctrine and is "less Christian".

Does that clear everything up, y'all?

[Desert Dweller]

Goliath says motherfucker. and calls the other guy out for loosing his temper (which I didn'tnotice...it was just stressing a point.)
Then goes ... well he just goes...see yr goliath. :wave:

[Zoot]

To add further, Goliath is absolutely right that Seebs is saying that Tamaki is less of a Christian in the second sense, but Seebs only just as much a Christian as Tamaki is in the first sense.

[wade-w]

Here's another analogy, Goliath. Consider e and 2/3. Both are real numbers, but e is an irrational number, while 2/3 is rational. e is a transcendental number, while 2/3 is an algebraic number. So while they are both reals, they they don't have much else in common.

[seebs]

You're calling him less of a xian than you are, but he is just as much of a xian as you are. Get it through your thick skull.

I don't seem to recall saying he's less of a Christian than I am.

Because, guess the fuck what?! I wouldn't be criticizing Tamaki for being a xian.

Neither would I, and neither am I.

[Zoot]

Wow. It's like a cross between blasphemy and idolatry, all rolled up into one! Your one stop shop for false doctrines of every sort.

Seebs, what were you saying here?

[seebs]

Wow. It's like a cross between blasphemy and idolatry, all rolled up into one! Your one stop shop for false doctrines of every sort.

Seebs, what were you saying here?

That the stuff these people preach contradicts a great deal of what Jesus said, fairly directly.

[Zoot]

That the stuff these people preach contraicts a great deal of what Jesus said, fairly directly.

Could that be easily interpreted as saying that they are less Christian than someone who preaches what Jesus said?

[seebs]

That the stuff these people preach contradicts a great deal of what Jesus said, fairly directly.

Could that be easily interpreted as saying that they are less Christian than someone who preaches what Jesus said?

In some contexts, yes, but not in any context where any two people are "exactly" as Christian as each other.

[Brimshack]

Note that Seebs' first post does not purport to describe anyone; it is a criticism of behavior and beliefs. If Christian values, ethics, and beliefs fell into the realm of involuntary movements, then perhaps one could then infer from failure to act according to those values, ethics, and beliefs that one was not a Christian. As it stands, however, this would be an invalid inference regarding any class of normative behavior. People simply are not mathematical functions.

[Petra]

People simply are not mathematical functions.
No, but wade's answer waS BRILLIANT NONETHELESS, AND oops caps, reminded me of the film Pi. Kinda. The nuanced truth may truly be found in the math.

Of course it may also be found in the beer, which is where I believe I may have found it this afternoon.

[seebs]

Here's another analogy, Goliath. Consider e and 2/3. Both are real numbers, but e is an irrational number, while 2/3 is rational. e is a transcendental number, while 2/3 is an algebraic number. So while they are both reals, they they don't have much else in common.

I think this is a pretty good analogy.

On the other hand, at one level I have more in common with these people than I have not-in-common with them. On the other-other hand, I have more in common with any person you care to name than I have not-in-common with them. If you get around to filtering out all the stuff that "everyone" shares, the question is more interesting.

I would guess that, although these people and I both share a few claims about cosmology, that I have more moral beliefs in common with, say, David Gould, than I do with Brian Tamaki.

Statistically, I suspect I'm more likely to agree on moral and cosmological claims with a randomly-selected Christian than with a randomly-selected non-Christian, but the diversity of views is so broad that the statistical claim is mostly empty anyway.

[Desert Dweller]

I don't get it with all this math. Tamaki uses Xtianity, other xtians practice (one would hope anyway) and that's very different.

So Tamaki is a function of voter behaviour and another (ordinary) Xtian is a funtion of .... well not voter behaviour anyway.

I thought the guy who left (goliath) was just stirring...which is why he got pissed off and left. It had nothing to do with the use of Xtianity by politicians (for whom if there is a hell, there will be a special place reserved, just under advertisers and marketing people) who only care about control and gaining power. If they really listened to the Man, they'd stay well away from politics altogether and become fishermen or something, carpenters,...

[wade-w]

Thanks Luna :) .

Onthedole, Goliath is a professional mathematician. I simply tried to find an analogy that is close to home, that's all.