The Great Ft Dix Plot.

[California Tanker]

I have to say, the Interweb is wonderful.

Not too many years ago, when you read about an arrest of a plot like this, you just saw what managed to fit in a few column inches.

Now, you get to read the full charge sheet the day after it's issued, which includes basically a long list of events under surveillance.

http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/terrorism/usduka50707cmp.pdf

I'm not sure if reading it is reassuring or not. On the one hand, from all the surveillance, it seems that the FBI has plenty of capability. On the other hand, the reason the FBI was put on to them was apparently because some chap at WalMart who was asked to burn a DVD from a tape noted that it was a DVD of chaps shooting off weapons while hollering "Allahu Akhbar", which he deemed somewhat suspicious. (which thus implies a slight 'Whoops' from the suspects)

Military facilities are actually pretty soft targets, once you can get past the gate. The Army's far too worried about people shooting themselves so unless you're a gate guard or one of the MPs, you're about as defenseless as a chap in a college.

Of some amusement are the various admissions by the suspects that "Yeah, we can't buy an AK-47 automatic rifle, they're illegal, so we'll just go to the streets" and "Well, we're illegal immigrants, can't buy weapons at all, so we'll just buy them from the streets."

Score one for useful gun laws, I guess.

Also of annoying amusement is the similarity between the lead suspect's name, and the phrase 'Dirka Dirka'

NTM

[Clutch Munny]

Also of annoying amusement is the similarity between the lead suspect's name, and the phrase 'Dirka Dirka'

NTM

:lol:

I find that suspicious, and think that the FBI should put Parker and Stone under surveillance.

[California Tanker]

You think that's suspicious, did you see the G-Man's name?

NTM

[Clutch Munny]

From the BBC's report: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6635669.stm)

Four of the suspects were born in the former Yugoslavia, one in Turkey and one in Jordan.
That settles it. We must attack Kashmir!

[Freddy]

Two counts were entered.

Count 1: was essentially conspiring to kill members of the government, US servicemen.
Count 2: was being an illegal alien and possessing and distributing firearms.

Is that about right?

Can they all be given the death penalty for a conviction on Count 1?

I freakin' hope so!

Here is the law. I do not think they broke this law, unless it has been amended to include conspiracy to kill...

Title 18 § 1114. Protection of officers and employees of the United States

Whoever kills or attempts to kill any officer or employee of the United States or of any agency in any branch of the United States Government (including any member of the uniformed services) while such officer or employee is engaged in or on account of the performance of official duties, or any person assisting such an officer or employee in the performance of such duties or on account of that assistance, shall be punished—
(1) in the case of murder, as provided under section 1111;
(2) in the case of manslaughter, as provided under section 1112; or
(3) in the case of attempted murder or manslaughter, as provided in section 1113.

[Dingfod]

Pizza delivery on a base is an excellent way to reconnoiter an installation. I knew Vance AFB inside out because of all the pizzas I delivered there in 1974-1975. CT is right about them being about as well-defended as a college campus. I'm sure they're better defended now than before 9/11/01, but back then the gate guards didn't visibly display any more than sidearms; once inside, nothing.

[California Tanker]

Two counts were entered.

Count 1: was essentially conspiring to kill members of the government, US servicemen.
Count 2: was being an illegal alien and possessing and distributing firearms.

Is that about right?

Can they all be given the death penalty for a conviction on Count 1?

I freakin' hope so!


I strongly doubt it. Two reasons. Firstly, cases of pretty blatant treason have not resulted in the death penalty any time recently, and these guys weren't citizens to begin with. Secondly, as you point out, I don't think Conspiracy is enough, they'd actually have to pretty much start firing bullets and missing before the 'attempt to kill' can be proven.

NTM

[Dingfod]

If the ones that are in the country illegally have conspired to infiltrate a military installation with the purpose of killing military personnel, wouldn't that make them spies, subject to execution?

[California Tanker]

Don't spies have to be agents of a foreign government?

This strikes me more of being a criminal, not military incident.

NTM

[Dingfod]

As much as I hate to say it, that's what I thought about the 9/11/2001 attack.

[Freddy]

Since 911 we have not passed a law making it a capital offense to conspire, attempt, or commit terrorists acts in this country? If not? Then why not?

[ChuckF]

So did they wiretap these guys without a warrant? Torture some folks to get to them? Because the President has told us we have to let him do that without complaining, so he can catch the terrists.

[California Tanker]

Since 911 we have not passed a law making it a capital offense to conspire, attempt, or commit terrorists acts in this country? If not? Then why not?

A terrorist act can be making a telephone call to a radio station saying that there's a bomb in the supermarket. There need not be any actual bomb. This is a capitol offense?
The currently existing laws can handle capitol punishment for mass murder quite handily, just ask Tim McVeigh.

NTM

[Dingfod]

So did they wiretap these guys without a warrant? Torture some folks to get to them? Because the President has told us we have to let him do that without complaining, so he can catch the terrists.No, the goofy goobers went to their local Wal*Mart to get their video of themselves shooting guns and shouting "Allah Akbar" converted into DVDs and were turned in by the people in the photo department. The FBI then set up a sting operation, posing as arms dealers. At least that's what I've gleaned from the various sources. These guys, like the Florida 7 (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/22/miami.raids/), aren't rocket surgeons.

[California Tanker]

I think he was being sarcastic, mate. His point being that it is still possible to stop people without the extra capabilities.

On the other hand, these guys were stupid enough that extra capabilities would have been overkill in the first place.

NTM

[Dingfod]

Ah, I thought that might be the case. One can never be absolutely certain when it comes to Chuckles.

[Freddy]

Since 911 we have not passed a law making it a capital offense to conspire, attempt, or commit terrorists acts in this country? If not? Then why not?

A terrorist act can be making a telephone call to a radio station saying that there's a bomb in the supermarket. There need not be any actual bomb. This is a capitol offense?
The currently existing laws can handle capitol punishment for mass murder quite handily, just ask Tim McVeigh.

NTM
I think you know I was referring to actual terrorist plots as this one was. If this nation is serious about stopping terrorism these fanatics need to be shown no mercy. If they were not so stupid and had not shown their video we might have seen many dead soldiers in the near future.

Three were here illegally, two have green cards, and one is real live American citizen, who should be charged with treason.

[California Tanker]

For better or worse, the current system takes 'what actually happened' into account. Attempted Murder and Murder has very little difference in intent or act, the only difference is that the victim lived or died. Yet I don't think there are many death penalty convictions for attempted murder.

Terrorism can be defined as acts or threats of violence by a non-government agency against the civilian population in order to achieve a political goal. There doesn't seem to have been a political goal in this case, it more just a general desire to kill Americans for its own sake. Further, the choice of target was at least fair: Instead of going down to the mall to kill lots of Americans at random there, they wanted to kill military personnel, which is something of an occupational hazard for the military in a state of conflict.

I believe conspiracy to murder is somewhere along the lines of 25 to life. the judge can tack on another 10 year minimum for the NFA violations. The lads are out of circulation for a few years.

NTM

[Watser?]

I think you know I was referring to actual terrorist plots as this one was. If this nation is serious about stopping terrorism these fanatics need to be shown no mercy. If they were not so stupid and had not shown their video we might have seen many dead soldiers in the near future.

Three were here illegally, two have green cards, and one is real live American citizen, who should be charged with treason.

This was a terrorist plot? :giggles:

I don't think the nation is serious about stopping terrorism. The terrorism is a bit of a joke too. These guys were idiots who would have screwed up something else too. How is this a threat even compared to assholes like the guy from Virginia Tech? It wouldn't even have made an impression, let alone threatened national security.

[Watser?]

Military facilities are actually pretty soft targets, once you can get past the gate. The Army's far too worried about people shooting themselves so unless you're a gate guard or one of the MPs, you're about as defenseless as a chap in a college.
Wait a minute...

So you are saying that there are no armed people in an army camp, whereas there are armed people in just about every shopping mall?

:stwitch:

[California Tanker]

Military facilities are actually pretty soft targets, once you can get past the gate. The Army's far too worried about people shooting themselves so unless you're a gate guard or one of the MPs, you're about as defenseless as a chap in a college.
Wait a minute...

So you are saying that there are no armed people in an army camp, whereas there are armed people in just about every shopping mall?

:stwitch:

Honestly? I'd say there are more armed persons in the average Texas shopping mall than there are in Ft Hood, TX. Army bases are federal property, state CCW laws don't apply. Looking at Ft Dix, it depends on which way they go. Nearest major city to the West is Philly, I'd put the number of armed people in a local mall as more than on Dix. Go North or East, staying in Jersey, and I'd figure it's about even. There are far more weapons on the Army post, obviously, but they don't do anyone any good if the weapons are in the barracks arms room, and the ammunition is kept in the ASP in some isolated part of the base.

NTM

[Angakuk]

A basic principle of military discipline. Don't arm the troops unless they have an actual enemy to shoot at. It reduces the temptation to use their officers for target practice.

[Freddy]

I think you know I was referring to actual terrorist plots as this one was. If this nation is serious about stopping terrorism these fanatics need to be shown no mercy. If they were not so stupid and had not shown their video we might have seen many dead soldiers in the near future.

Three were here illegally, two have green cards, and one is real live American citizen, who should be charged with treason.

This was a terrorist plot? :giggles:

I don't think the nation is serious about stopping terrorism. The terrorism is a bit of a joke too. These guys were idiots who would have screwed up something else too. How is this a threat even compared to assholes like the guy from Virginia Tech? It wouldn't even have made an impression, let alone threatened national security.
Are you serious? Six guys armed to the teeth with AK-47s and RPGs who said the were going to defend their religious faith that America is at war with are less of a threat than a single assailant armed with two handguns? I guess we should send them over to your side of the lake then!

[Watser?]

Are you serious? Six guys armed to the teeth with AK-47s and RPGs who said the were going to defend their religious faith that America is at war with are less of a threat than a single assailant armed with two handguns? I guess we should send them over to your side of the lake then!

Well obviously because they killed exactly 0 people while the VT killer killed 32.

A loner is way more dangerous than a group, much easier to keep a secret on your own. These guys were losers, so were all of the post 9/11 would-be terrorists arrested.

And if the US is at war with a religious faith (Islam) then good luck with that. There are about a billion of them worldwide. Good thing you are at war with only a tiny percentage of them (no matter what the Salafists will tell you themselves), but I have to admit that percentage has grown considerably since Bush attacked Iraq.

[Watser?]

hmmmmmmmmmmm...

It was August 2006 when one of the young Muslim men accused of plotting to kill soldiers at Fort Dix first broached the idea, according to the authorities. Talking to an informer who was secretly taping the exchange, the young man said that he thought he could round up six or seven other men willing to take part, and that a rocket-propelled grenade might be the most effective weapon, the authorities said.

And he had one more notion: He wanted the informer to lead the attack, according to a federal complaint. “I am at your services,” the young man is quoted as telling the informer, who had presented himself as an Egyptian with a military background.

That moment, recorded on tape and submitted in federal court this week in Camden, N.J., as the authorities charged six Muslim men in the plot, captures something of the complexity of using informers in terror investigations. The informer, sent to penetrate a loose group of men who liked to talk about jihad and fire guns in the woods, had come to be seen by the suspects as the person who might actually show them how an act of terror could be carried off.

Indeed, over the months that followed, as the targets of the investigation spoke with a sometimes unfocused zeal about waging holy war, the informer, one of two used in the investigation, would tell them that he could get them the sophisticated weapons they wanted. He would accompany them on surveillance missions to military installations, debating the risks, and when the men looked ready to purchase the weapons, it was the informer who seemed to be pushing the idea of buying the deadliest items, startling at least one of the suspects.link (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/nyregion/10informer.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

[California Tanker]

Colour me unsympathetic.

Undercover operations (or more to the point, entrapment) is generally defined as illegal if it entices someone to break a law which they would otherwise have had no intention of breaking. This was no off-the-cuff spontaneous act with limited knowledge. Over the course of over a year these chaps kept coming back to the plan, to the extent that they even conducted their own little counter-intel operation. They knew exactly what their plans meant, how illegal they were, and they kept with it.

At the most basic level, if someone pulls up next to me at the traffic lights, guns their engine, and we both take off in a drag race, I can't claim immunity from the subsequent speeding ticket because it wasn't my idea. It was something which was clearly illegal and any reasonable person would have known better.

NTM

[Watser?]

That was not my point.

Using your example, would there have BEEN a drag race if the other guy had not come up with the idea? Doubtful.

I didn't think it was much of a plot in the first place, now I doubt if there had been one at all without the police provocateur edging them on.

[California Tanker]

Using your example, would there have BEEN a drag race if the other guy had not come up with the idea? Doubtful.


My analogy was simply to demonstrate how whose idea it was is irrelevant to culpability. If you really want to take it to the conclusion of applicability (i.e. danger to non-participants in the drag race), people who are inclined to partake in street racing may well be also inclined to drive fast and cause accidents even without anyone challenging them.

I didn't think it was much of a plot in the first place, now I doubt if there had been one at all without the police provocateur edging them on.

From the first sentence of the article you link, the person who broached the subject was the suspect, not the informer, and he already had apparently come up with a group of a half-dozen colleagues willing to partake. The informer merely provided opportunity.

NTM