Pope: Amazon Indians were "silently longing" for Christianity

[Watser?]

Outraged Indian leaders in Brazil said on Monday they were offended by Pope Benedict's "arrogant and disrespectful" comments that the Roman Catholic Church had purified them and a revival of their religions would be a backward step.

In a speech to Latin American and Caribbean bishops at the end of a visit to Brazil, the Pope said the Church had not imposed itself on the indigenous peoples of the Americas.

They had welcomed the arrival of European priests at the time of the conquest as they were "silently longing" for Christianity, he said.

Millions of tribal Indians are believed to have died as a result of European colonization backed by the Church since Columbus landed in the Americas in 1492, through slaughter, disease or enslavement.

Many Indians today struggle for survival, stripped of their traditional ways of life and excluded from society.link (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN1428799220070514?pageNumber=2)

[D. Scarlatti]

You can take the boy out of the Hitler Youth, but you can't take the Hitler Youth out of the boy.

Ain't religion grand.

[Stormlight]

It's good to see the old Panzer-Kardinal still has it ...

[Shelli]

:vomit:

[Sock Puppet]

I thought John Wayne wasn't even still breathing, and here he is writing speeches for the Pope.

[curses]

the Pope said the Church had not imposed itself on the indigenous peoples of the Americas.I smell something..smells like....bullshit?

[livius drusus]

Pope Benedict not only upset many Indians but also Catholic priests who have joined their struggle, said Sandro Tuxa, who heads the movement of northeastern tribes.
Perhaps that was the point. Priests joining the struggle for Indian rights might edge a tad too close to Liberation Theology, which Ratzinger opposes virulently.

[Freddy]

Remember this is the nut who wants to make Pius XII, Hitler's Pope, a saint!

[TomJoe]

Remember this is the nut who wants to make Pius XII, Hitler's Pope, a saint!I bet you read that on a book jacket once, eh?

[Angakuk]

Marginally relevant anecdote

When I was a pastor in an Inupiat village in Alaska a very old woman in the village told me thë following.

Before Christianity came we were always afraid of the shamans. They could cause the bad spirits to hurt us if we made them angry. After Jesus came the fear went away.

Now, I am not saying that the Inupiat were "silently longing" for Christianity. Nor am I offering any sort of apologetic for the havoc wreaked by the church on indigenous cultures in the Americas. However, it is just remotely possible that some of these same indigenous peoples actually welcomed a religion that offered (even if it seldom delivered) an alternative to existing religious tyranny and oppression. How were they to know that, in many cases, the new religion would turn out to be equally oppressive and tyrannical?

[Freddy]

Remember this is the nut who wants to make Pius XII, Hitler's Pope, a saint!I bet you read that on a book jacket once, eh?
Actually, I read the book.

[TomJoe]

Remember this is the nut who wants to make Pius XII, Hitler's Pope, a saint!I bet you read that on a book jacket once, eh?
Actually, I read the book.
So much for critical reading skills.

We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace. - Golda Meier

[Freddy]

Remember this is the nut who wants to make Pius XII, Hitler's Pope, a saint!I bet you read that on a book jacket once, eh?
Actually, I read the book.
So much for critical reading skills.

We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace. - Golda Meier
According to the book Pius did little to save Jews from the Nazis. He has many critics for his inaction during the Holocaust.
From Wikipedia:
"In 1999, in an attempt to address some of this controversy, the Vatican appointed the International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission (ICJHC), a group composed of three Jewish and three Catholic scholars to investigate the role of the Church during the Holocaust. In 2001, the ICJHC issued its preliminary finding, raising a number of questions about the way the Vatican dealt with the Holocaust, titled " The Vatican and the Holocaust: A Preliminary Report."[122]

The Commission discovered documents making it clear that Pius was aware of widespread anti-Jewish persecution in 1941 and 1942, and they suspected that the Church may have been influenced in not helping Jewish immigration by the nuncio of Chile and the Papal representative to Bolivia, who complained about the "invasion of the Jews" to their countries, where they engaged in "dishonest dealings, violence, immorality, and even disrespect for religion."[122]

The ICJHC raised a list of 47 questions about the way the Church dealt with the Holocaust, requested documents that had not been publicly released in order to continue their work, and, not receiving permission, they disbanded in July of 2001, having never issued a final report. Unsatisfied with the findings, Dr. Michael Marrus, one of the three Jewish members of the Commission, said the commission "ran up against a brick wall.... It would have been really helpful to have had support from the Holy See on this issue."[123]"

[godfry n. glad]

Remember this is the nut who wants to make Pius XII, Hitler's Pope, a saint!I bet you read that on a book jacket once, eh?
Actually, I read the book.
So much for critical reading skills.

We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace. - Golda Meier
According to the book Pius did little to save Jews from the Nazis. He has many critics for his inaction during the Holocaust.

As Cardinal Pacelli, he negotiated the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican in 1933. His actions went a long way toward legitimizing Hitler amongst German Catholics, whose bishops had been opposing membership in the Nazi Party. He was understood to have encouraged priests who wished to help Jews escape Nazi occupied territory, but he also allowed priests who so desired to take up membership in the National Socialist Party. The church would later condemn Nazism for it's graven images and pagan folkloric heros, but I think Pius XII was gone by then.

[Freddy]

As Cardinal Pacelli, he negotiated the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican in 1933. His actions went a long way toward legitimizing Hitler amongst German Catholics, whose bishops had been opposing membership in the Nazi Party. He was understood to have encouraged priests who wished to help Jews escape Nazi occupied territory, but he also allowed priests who so desired to take up membership in the National Socialist Party. The church would later condemn Nazism for it's graven images and pagan folkloric heros, but I think Pius XII was gone by then.
Pius was pope until August 9, 1958.

[TomJoe]

According to the book Pius did little to save Jews from the Nazis.Naw, really? Duh.

He has many critics for his inaction during the Holocaust.You didn't even read the quote I supplied above eh? Do you even know who Golda Meier is? Seems like Jews at the time were very grateful for what he did for them.

From Wikipedia:LOL.

[Freddy]

According to the book Pius did little to save Jews from the Nazis.Naw, really? Duh.

He has many critics for his inaction during the Holocaust.You didn't even read the quote I supplied above eh? Do you even know who Golda Meier is? Seems like Jews at the time were very grateful for what he did for them.

From Wikipedia:LOL.

I read it and supplied evidence of an investigation into the Church's dealings during the Holocaust. Mrs. Meier, the late Prime Minister of Israel, supplied no evidence of actions taken by Pius except only a vague claim he spoke out against the Nazis during the Holocaust. How can you generalize from what one Jew, Mrs. Meier, said into an entire population? What would have helped would have been an actual quote by Pius condemning the Nazis early on, in the mid to late 1930's, when the Nazi pogroms against Jews in Germany began.

[Listener]

From here (http://www.catholicleague.org/piusxii_and_the_holocaust/defense.htm):-

"No doubt a protest would have gained me the praise and respect of the civilized world, but it would have submitted the poor Jews to an even worse persecution."

I'm neither Catholic nor Jewish but I wonder what the guy was supposed to do against such an evil power. He could hardly keep his head down and also do what (raised a catholic) Schindler did.

With regard to Amazon Indians - I remember being taught that primitive peoples were just "waiting for the gospel" when I was an evangelical youth. It seems to be widely believed among Christians - and as Angakuk pointed out - probably has an elephant of truth about it!

[The Lone Ranger]

Annie Dillard pointed out a flip side to that argument in A Pilgrim at Tinker Creek:

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

Cheers,

Michael

[Watser?]

The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight. --Terry Pratchett, Eric

[Watser?]

Here's a website (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html) that gives a Jewish point of view. They have mixed feelings about Pius XII:Historians point out that any support the Pope did give the Jews came after 1942, once U.S. officials told him that the allies wanted total victory, and it became likely that they would get it. Furthering the notion that any intervention by Pius XII was based on practical advantage rather than moral inclination is the fact that in late 1942, Pius XII began to advise the German and Hungarian bishops that it would be to their ultimate political advantage to go on record as speaking out against the massacre of the Jews.

...

Conlusion

The Pope's reaction to the Holocaust was complex and inconsistent. At times, he tried to help the Jews and was successful. But these successes only highlight the amount of influence he might have had, if he not chosen to remain silent on so many other occasions. No one knows for sure the motives behind Pius XII's actions, or lack thereof, since the Vatican archives have only been fully opened to select researchers. Historians offer many reasons why Pope Pius XII was not a stronger public advocate for the Jews: A fear of Nazi reprisals, a feeling that public speech would have no effect and might harm the Jews, the idea that private intervention could accomplish more, the anxiety that acting against the German government could provoke a schism among German Catholics, the church's traditional role of being politically neutral and the fear of the growth of communism were the Nazis to be defeated.(34) Whatever his motivation, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Pope, like so many others in positions of power and influence, could have done more to save the Jews.
As for Golda Meir: she was prime-minister of Israel, not a representative of the Jewish people. She would have found it more politically expedient not to antagonize the Catholics.

[Freddy]

From what I have read on the subject it appears Pius was more apt to help Jews and speak privately against the Holocaust. When it came to public condemnation of the Nazis he spoke often of how the Nazis were a threat to the survival of Catholicism, but rarely mentions the real and greater threat the Jewish people were facing from Nazi persecution.

[TomJoe]

What would have helped would have been an actual quote by Pius condemning the Nazis early on, in the mid to late 1930's, when the Nazi pogroms against Jews in Germany began.

You mean like the Papal encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html) condemning Nazi doctrine, that was read in every Catholic Church in Germany on Palm Sunday in 1937?

As for Golda Meir: she was prime-minister of Israel, not a representative of the Jewish people. She would have found it more politically expedient not to antagonize the Catholics.
Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.
-Albert Einstein, Time (December 23, 1940 issue, page 38)

What excuse are you going to make now?

[Stormlight]

Looks like Einstein never said that, though. (http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-05.html)

[Watser?]

What excuse are you going to make now?

Main Entry: 1ex·cuse
Pronunciation: ik-'skyüz, imperatively often 'skyüz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ex·cused; ex·cus·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French escuser, excuser, from Latin excusare, from ex- + causa cause, explanation
1 a : to make apology for b : to try to remove blame from
2 : to forgive entirely or disregard as of trivial import : regard as excusable <graciously excused his tardiness>
3 a : to grant exemption or release to <was excused from jury duty> b : to allow to leave <excused the class>
4 : to serve as excuse for : JUSTIFY <nothing can excuse such neglect
I'm not the one making excuses here

[Clutch Munny]

What does a remark of Einstein's have to do with whether a remark of Golda Meir's was both wholly sincere and representative of Jewish opinions more generally?

Was the change of topic supposed to be a tacit concession of the point?

[TomJoe]

What does a remark of Einstein's have to do with whether a remark of Golda Meir's was both wholly sincere and representative of Jewish opinions more generally?

Was the change of topic supposed to be a tacit concession of the point?Since Watser dismissed my quoting Golda Meier as nothing more than politics (though one can only wonder what large political body of Catholics she didn't want to offend), I supplied the quote by Einstein which had the same intent as her own comments but carried no "political baggage". Since Einstein wasn't a politician, the same sort of criticism could not be used against his quote. Though for the record, I don't buy Watsers? explanation of why Golda Meier said what she said. She could have said nothing, or anything else short of the praise she did say.

As to her not being a representative of the Jewish people (another of his comments), exactly who did she represent as Prime Minister of Israel, the Jewish state if not the Jews?

[Watser?]

That's a common misconception.

Israeli politicians do not represent the 'Jewish people', they represent Israel.

As for the large political body of Catholics 'one can only wonder' about, how about all of Latin America, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France and the large block of Catholics in the US for starters? You're saying then that that would not be something any head of state (especially a tiny state that in 1958 was totally dependent on goodwill from the West) would consider more important than telling the truth? Quite apart from the fact that much of the research here (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html) I mentioned before was done much later than 1958.

[Clutch Munny]

I took the basic problem to be quoting individual Jews' personal opinions as showing that Pius opposed the Nazis as robustly as he should have.

Would you take the personal opinions of two Jews to show that Pius was culpable?

[Freddy]

What would have helped would have been an actual quote by Pius condemning the Nazis early on, in the mid to late 1930's, when the Nazi pogroms against Jews in Germany began.

You mean like the Papal encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html) condemning Nazi doctrine, that was read in every Catholic Church in Germany on Palm Sunday in 1937?
Written by Pius XI not by Pius XII, this is addressed to German Catholics to keep them from joining the Nazis. Nowhere did it mention Jews, Judaism or the Jewish people. In fact, the entire piece confirms what I have already pointed out that the Church was mainly interested in protecting Catholics and the Church. Find a quote by Pius XII condemning the Nazis for their atrocities against the Jewish people in Europe.

MIT BRENNENDER SORGE
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON THE CHURCH AND THE GERMAN REICH
TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN
THE ARCHBISHOPS AND BISHOPS OF GERMANY AND OTHER ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE.

[BDS]

If memory serves, animist Shaman Leaders from Guyana failed to speak out against the Nazis, too.

[TomJoe]

What would have helped would have been an actual quote by Pius condemning the Nazis early on, in the mid to late 1930's, when the Nazi pogroms against Jews in Germany began.

You mean like the Papal encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html) condemning Nazi doctrine, that was read in every Catholic Church in Germany on Palm Sunday in 1937?
Written by Pius XI not by Pius XII, this is addressed to German Catholics to keep them from joining the Nazis. Nowhere did it mention Jews, Judaism or the Jewish people. In fact, the entire piece confirms what I have already pointed out that the Church was mainly interested in protecting Catholics and the Church. Find a quote by Pius XII condemning the Nazis for their atrocities against the Jewish people in Europe.

MIT BRENNENDER SORGE
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON THE CHURCH AND THE GERMAN REICH
TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN
THE ARCHBISHOPS AND BISHOPS OF GERMANY AND OTHER ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE.
Earlier you said: What would have helped would have been an actual quote by Pius condemning the Nazis early on, in the mid to late 1930's ...

Pius XII didn't become Pope until March of 1939, so to meet your criteria, it would have to have come from Pius XI. However, Pius XI credits the Papal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (aka Pius XII) for writing it. So once again, I present you Mit Brennender Sorge as evidence. Pius XI's encyclical didn't mention a lot of things by name, but if you read it ... it's pretty clear he's referring to Hitler and Nazism and it's less than stellar moral practices. Everyone saw it for what it was, and IMO for a country completely surrounded by a Nazi ally in fascist Italy, it was a pretty bold statement. As for protecting Catholics, what's wrong with that? About 3 million Polish Catholics died in concentration camps as well.

[Freddy]

[/I]Pius XII didn't become Pope until March of 1939, so to meet your criteria, it would have to have come from Pius XI. However, Pius XI credits the Papal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (aka Pius XII) for writing it. So once again, I present you Mit Brennender Sorge as evidence. Pius XI's encyclical didn't mention a lot of things by name, but if you read it ... it's pretty clear he's referring to Hitler and Nazism and it's less than stellar moral practices. Everyone saw it for what it was, and IMO for a country completely surrounded by a Nazi ally in fascist Italy, it was a pretty bold statement. As for protecting Catholics, what's wrong with that? About 3 million Polish Catholics died in concentration camps as well.
Again, show evidence that he is speaking about Jews. Point out anything in the Mit Brennender Sorge that you think is directed at the Nazis' treatment of the Jewish people.

[TomJoe]

Again, show evidence that he is speaking about Jews. Point out anything in the Mit Brennender Sorge that you think is directed at the Nazis' treatment of the Jewish people.
The encyclical starts by saying the Nazi's had in mind, all along, the idea to start "... a war of extermination".

It then goes on to criticize the Nazi idea of an Aryan race, which was the very root for Nazi persecution of the Jews.
11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xI, 15).

[Freddy]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]
Again, show evidence that he is speaking about Jews. Point out anything in the Mit Brennender Sorge that you think is directed at the Nazis' treatment of the Jewish people.
The encyclical starts by saying the Nazi's had in mind, all along, the idea to start "... a war of extermination".
If you look at the entire section it is clear he is talking about the Church and not Jews.

4. If, then, the tree of peace, which we planted on German soil with the purest intention, has not brought forth the fruit, which in the interest of your people, We had fondly hoped, no one in the world who has eyes to see and ears to hear will be able to lay the blame on the Church and on her Head. The experiences of these last years have fixed responsibilities and laid bare intrigues, which from the outset only aimed at a war of extermination. In the furrows, where We tried to sow the seed of a sincere peace, other men - the "enemy" of Holy Scripture - oversowed the cockle of distrust, unrest, hatred, defamation, of a determined hostility overt or veiled, fed from many sources and wielding many tools, against Christ and His Church. They, and they alone with their accomplices, silent or vociferous, are today responsible, should the storm of religious war, instead of the rainbow of peace, blacken the German skies.

It then goes on to criticize the Nazi idea of an Aryan race, which was the very root for Nazi persecution of the Jews.
11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xI, 15).
I agree this is aimed at Nazi ideology, but not specifically aimed at Jews. It should have pointed out in clear terms that German laws aimed against German Jews were against the Christian faith and teachings.