Discipline question

[LadyShea]

So, I need some ideas to help teach Kiddo not to hit. He is 18-mos old and has started slapping when he is feeling any really strong emotion, including excitement, as well as frustration or anger. Surprisingly he does it more when he is excited/stimulated than out of frustration

This came on so suddenly, and in such unexpected contexts that we have simply reacted with "no!" and that's not working, of course. I spent all morning looking through my discipline books, as well as online and have gotten some good possibilities, but none are quite "right" to me the way others things have been.

I am hoping for just brainstorming, throw it out there and hopefully something will have that "rightness" for me.

Please keep in mind the following:
1. We choose to not spank, hand-slap, pinch or in any way physically punish.
2. It is my belief he is too young, and has too little ability to reason as yet, to understand true time outs
3. We prefer natural, logical, or related consequences when at all possible.

[The Lone Ranger]

Please keep in mind the following:
1. We choose to not spank, hand-slap, pinch or in any way physically punish.
2. It is my belief he is too young, and has too little ability to reason as yet, to understand true time outs
3. We prefer natural, logical, or related consequences when at all possible.


I've no kids and wouldn't presume to know anything about raising them.

However, I think #2 is an important point. If you're going to use either punishment or negative reinforcement to try to amend his behavior, the consequences of misbehavior must come immediately afterward -- and consistently. He's probably too young to understand cause-and-effect, but even a worm quickly learns through association. If he suffers unpleasant consequences every time he slaps someone, he'll quickly learn to associate slapping with the unpleasant result.

That's no guarantee that it'll stop him from doing it, alas. Some kids are stubborn. My nephew was like that. Even as a toddler, he quickly learned that certain behaviors would earn him punishment, but he'd keep right on doing them (you could tell he knew he'd get a spanking for it, because he'd first look around to see if an adult was watching and would wait until no one was watching before, say, pulling the cat's tail). Apparently, the pleasure of doing certain naughty things outweighed the punishment.

Cheers,

Michael

[wei yau]

I agree that at 18 months, he is too young to reason out why hitting is not acceptable behavior.

One method that I've heard of, but never had to use, is to remove the child from the environment which causes the excitability. This isn't phrased in the context of punishment, but more along the lines of trying to calm the child down.

Given that your son is likely to do this when he's feeling more "positive" emotions as opposed to "negative" ones, I'd be careful to clearly indicate that this is not a punishment. Wouldn't want to give the impression that feeling excited is a bad thing.

[lisarea]

I'm no expert either, but my instinct would be to first restrain him (just enough so that he can't hit you) and say something like "That hurts. Don't do that," and then I'd stop interacting with him for a while.

It's a pretty natural consequence that people don't want to interact with someone who is hurting them.

[LadyShea]

I'm no expert either, but my instinct would be to first restrain him (just enough so that he can't hit you) and say something like "That hurts. Don't do that," and then I'd stop interacting with him for a while.
We are considering this actually, but to remain consistent we feel we need to define "a while". You raised a male person from birth that as far as I know is a decent human being. That makes you more an expert than me...what time frame would you suggest? If not a specific time frame what action of his could trigger the "release" from the non interaction?

Did LM slap like this?

It's a pretty natural consequence that people don't want to interact with someone who is hurting them.
Totally agreed, that's why this was the first thing on the table.

[Kyuss Apollo]

Employ some redirection. Immediately offer an alternative activity that will hopefully divert his energy in a more constructive direction.

Failing that, or if he is flipping out and hitting/kicking, pick him up and firmly hold him so he cannot hit and kick. Talk to him in an even tone of voice and tell him when he stops you'll stop.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Talk to him in an even tone of voice and tell him when he stops you'll stop.

But that would be reasoning with him, and based on my observations of the 18-month old of friends of mine here, that doesn't work in the least (he's a hitter, too; must be something about that age). They've started doing what lisarea suggested, though I haven't been around their place enough lately to know if that's consistently effective. I do know he hasn't taken a swing at me lately.

[Sock Puppet]

As far as quantifying the time (and it is actually a time-out, just a young-toddler version of it), my pediatrician said to make it 1 minute for every year of age. So in your kiddo's case, that would be 90 seconds.

[lisarea]

I'm no expert either, but my instinct would be to first restrain him (just enough so that he can't hit you) and say something like "That hurts. Don't do that," and then I'd stop interacting with him for a while.
We are considering this actually, but to remain consistent we feel we need to define "a while". You raised a male person from birth that as far as I know is a decent human being. That makes you more an expert than me...what time frame would you suggest? If not a specific time frame what action of his could trigger the "release" from the non interaction?

Man, it was a long time ago that the Little Muffin was a little muffin, but I think I'd just stop whatever we were doing at the time, then come back and do something else, whether it's thirty seconds or five minutes later. So if we were playing with blocks, say, I'd put the blocks up, maybe get a glass of water or something, then come back and see if he wanted to read a story or something.

The LM was really sort of hypersensitive and eager to please as a kid, so I didn't really have any major problems with him doing things I didn't like. And I did reason with him, even when he was much too young to understand. He always picked up at least the gist of it, and I figure they learn everything else by exposure.

Take me with a grain of salt, though. I reason with the dog.

[Sock Puppet]

I've found that reasoning with a toddler is a most effective punishment. :muahaha:

[Shelli]

heh

[viscousmemories]

Is 18 months too young for caning?

[LadyShea]

Is 18 months too young for caning?

The sooner the better, but canes are hard to come by unfortunately.

[Zadalya]

I don't have kids, but did help raise my brother and sisters, who are much younger than me (from 12-20 years younger). And while they can't reason at 18 months, they do know when there are consequences from bad behavior. How is the sound of your 'no'? When my grandmother used to discipline my sisters and brother (and me) , her NO scared the crap out of us, because her voice was completely different (deeper, louder, and followed by a withering stare while she locked eyes with the naughty for long enough to make them feel positively uncomfortable). And she also made this sound which was like 'Haaaaaah', really low and deep (not unlike a growl,LOL) and that worked really well. I use it with my cat as well, when she does something bad (immediately she runs and sits and in her little bed, knowing she's screwed up). Not saying kids and animals are the same, but if it works...it works. and there's no physical pain, just 'alpha' behaviour.
But if you keep saying 'No' and there's no result, they will keep doing as they are doing because there are no consequences. I'm feeling like this is a from of aggression (even in excitement, perhaps he doesn't yet know how to express it except in this one way)...
My brother-in-law's kids are hitters (frankly too old for that kind of behaviour - they're 3 and 4 ). Their parents let them hit and let out a weak 'no, honey, don't do that'. When they sit on my lap and play, they get all happy and then slap-happy, and I feel that rumble coming from the back of my throat (like my grandmother did!) and they smile sheepishly, then start being extremely gentle, and cautious.
I have another pair of friends who have 2 children (also about 4 and 5), and when they act up, my friends send them to their special corner immediately. They have to sit in a specific chair and not be allowed from there for like 10 minutes. After that, they clamber from their seats and are on better behavior.
I'm think it has something to do with the parent/guardian's BEHEVIOUR being just different enough to make the child feel a little uncomfortable. Since kids crave comfort and find it in familiarity, throwing something a bit off their way, will make them pause (and more than a mere word, it's the WAY it is said) . And since it's not physical punishment, the discomfort won't be so great, but it will stick and even get them reasoning on a small level.

I am also wondering since your boy is 18 months,he is hitting that 'terrible twos' age. He's not exactly 2, but it's around that age when they like to test their limits. I'm sure you know about the joys of the terrible twos, lol.

Anyway...just my two cents.

[LadyShea]

From everything I have read this hitting is totally normal for his age, being related to having strong emotions but not enough language to express them appropriately. It's the 85 million suggested ways to deal with it that I am having trouble wading through to find the one that will "fit" with our overall parenting philosophy.

I did find something I might try, which is a combination of reprimand and redirection. Start with a stern, eye level "No hitting, it hurts" then tell them to clap their hands instead. It allows them to express whatever physically, but without hurting others or redirecting the behavior to objects (I don't want him to hit pillows or anything either, too aggressive/outward for my comfort)

Thoughts?

[wei yau]

Oooh, I like that idea with the clapping of the hands. Much better than hitting themselves.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I've nothing more to add, other than whatever path you take, it should involve duct tape. Everything in life is made better by duct tape. :yup:

[Ensign Steve]

From everything I have read this hitting is totally normal for his age, being related to having strong emotions but not enough language to express them appropriately. It's the 85 million suggested ways to deal with it that I am having trouble wading through to find the one that will "fit" with our overall parenting philosophy.

Does this (http://signingbaby.com/main/?cat=24) make 85 million and one? My friends are doing this with their 9 month old. It is bizarre!

[LadyShea]

Sign language for babies is cool, but my kiddo wouldn't have anything to do with it formally. He came up with a couple of his own signs before he started talking, like pointing at the floor for milk (dunno why). I have talked with kids that use actual sign language, though and was blown away.

Anyway he has chosen to amp up speech instead...he has well over 150 words now and learning 2-3 a day. For less verbal kids the sign language rocks.

[Ensign Steve]

That's awesome. I'm wild speculating here, but when you said he points to the floor for milk, my first thought was he was imitating you or dad's arm motion when you reach down to hand him the cup. :shrug: Who knows what goes on in kid's heads? My niece has always called her grandmother "Tis" and no one knows why. Not even her, now that she is 12 and can't remember inventing the name.

[BracesForImpact]

Elaina is 19 months old, and she doesn't hit, but she scratches. Like most her age, she also touches everything. Since I'm living with friends, I don't have the luxury of just toddler-proofing the house to solve the problem.

If your toddler is like mine, then he's always on the go, exploring and what not. We decided to try the "no no chair". If she intentionally tries to hurt someone or touches something she should not (she likes to throw stuff on the floor and tip things over) we stop all interaction, tell her "no" in a stern voice and mimic what she did wrong, then we put her in the "no no chair". We just make her stay in the chair for a couple of minutes. She can climb around or cry or talk or whatever, but she's not allowed out until the time has expired. Just restricting her freedom in this manner seems to be effective.

This seems to be (slowly but surely) having an effect.

Good luck!

[The Lone Ranger]

He came up with a couple of his own signs before he started talking, like pointing at the floor for milk (dunno why).

It's off-topic, I know, but this sort of thing fascinates me. Pointing appears to be one of the unambiguously innate behaviors that is peculiar to humans. Infants barely out of the womb will point at things, and, tellingly, when someone else points to something, an infant will look at where the other person is pointing, not at that person.

Why is this so astonishing? Well, if you think about it, it's not at all obvious that an infant should be born with an understanding of how to point and what pointing means.

After all, just try to teach a dog what it means. Dogs do have a sort of innate "pointing" behavior, it's true, which is why we have "pointers" that will "point" to game, but it's an entirely different behavior. No matter how smart a dog is, when you point at something, the dog does not realize you're trying to get it to look at something else; (s)he looks at you. The more frantically you point and yell, "Look over there, you stupid mutt!" the more the dog looks at you.

The poor doggie just doesn't get it. It's possible to teach a dog to look at where you're pointing instead of at you, but it's awfully difficult.


Not even chimpanzees seem to understand what pointing means, but human infants "get it" right away. The universality of pointing in human cultures and the fact that infants point and understand what pointing means very strongly suggest that pointing is an "instinctive" behavior in humans.

Cheers,

Michael

[lisarea]

The poor doggie just doesn't get it. It's possible to teach a dog to look at where you're pointing instead of at you, but it's awfully difficult.

If you're usually pointing at food you dropped on the floor, it's not too hard.

[Shelli]

How true that is. :chuckle:

[LadyShea]

Very fascinating observations with the pointing. I wouldn't have considered that at all. Very cool!

Also off topic, but i have to mention how much I love that he is verbal now. This morning he happened to semi wake up when hubby did (he gets up at 4:30) and without opening his eyes said "milk". It was lovely to be able to respond to a spoken request instead of trying to figure out if a groggy whimper means "I'm thirsty", "I need a dry diaper" or "It's fucking 4:30 Daddy so be quiet". Of course he has also semi woken up and said "tractors", "not on" and "bathtub"...but this morning it was a clear request I'm pretty sure.

[quiet bear]

I did find something I might try, which is a combination of reprimand and redirection. Start with a stern, eye level "No hitting, it hurts" then tell them to clap their hands instead. It allows them to express whatever physically, but without hurting others or redirecting the behavior to objects (I don't want him to hit pillows or anything either, too aggressive/outward for my comfort)

Thoughts?

I was going to suggest this. I have been around kids enough to know that this method has been the one that works for me. If I get a swinger coming at me, I turn it around to where I've got the young one laughing, trying to slap high fives with me as I move my hands.


Of course, it doesn't always work. Redirecting a toddler who's beyond redirection is a different story. At that point, I just get their hands in mine so they can't do any damage, and let the wear themselves out. LOL.


That being said, the behavior you describe is the same for happy and upset. Could be just the youngun doesn't know any other way to express their feelings yet.

Whatever you end up doing, best of luck.:yup:

[Qingdai]

Redirection is what worked for me until my son got about two and a half years old.

[Dingfod]

As far as hitting goes, we're having a bit of a problem with the grandson who is living at our house right now. My advice is to not let him watch Power Rangers any more, he hits and kicks maliciously afterward. Woe be unto the dog. We're trying to deal with this without laying a hand on him except to restrain him. Did you know it's fairly difficult to completely restrain an almost four year old kid that it is in good shape because he's active as hell?

1. We choose to not spank, hand-slap, pinch or in any way physically punish.All I can say is good luck with that.

[LadyShea]

1. We choose to not spank, hand-slap, pinch or in any way physically punish.All I can say is good luck with that.

People have made this same comment about quite a number of our choices, but so far you're the first to make it about physical punishment. Are you of the belief that other forms of discipline are not effective, or more that it will be difficult to restrain myself at some point?

[BDS]

1. We choose to not spank, hand-slap, pinch or in any way physically punish.

What about 50 socks and 50 pinches for quitting the game while he is "it"? Non-violence is fine, but we must make some consessions to tradition!

[Ensign Steve]

Don't forget about slug bugs.

[lisarea]

And birthday spankings. I have to chase the LM around ALL DAY for those anymore.

Don't forget about slug bugs.

You mean punch buggy?

Man, you are such a hillbilly.

[Ensign Steve]

Oh no you di'nt!

[LadyShea]

Are ya gonna slap fight now?

[lisarea]

Well, I'm not ruining a good pillow on that skank, I'll tell you that much.

[Plant Woman]

It doesn't matter what you decide to do, someone will find fault with it, or think their way is the better, or only way. Not saying that about Dingfod, however. Funny how I was criticized as being either too strict or too lenient.

Disciplining according to their development is a great way to go and I applaud your efforts.

At that age, I found removing my daughter from the situation helped while she was too young too reason with. Eventually that won't work, but by then he should be able to be reasoned with.

You can raise a child without resulting to violence, however it takes a different mindset as it is still a fairly new concept to our culture.

[Dingfod]

1. We choose to not spank, hand-slap, pinch or in any way physically punish.All I can say is good luck with that.

People have made this same comment about quite a number of our choices, but so far you're the first to make it about physical punishment. Are you of the belief that other forms of discipline are not effective, or more that it will be difficult to restrain myself at some point?No, I just believe that every child is different and some will not respond to non-physical punishment at all (see: my daughter Roxy before age 5, my nephew Max all the way up to his teen years). I could write a lengthy diatribe on the subject of these kinds of children and how the end result of their upbringing is either no different than their siblings that didn't require that kind of discipline or actually better (in the case of my youngest vs my eldest, who was an angel up to age 14, eager to please like lisarea's Little Muffin), but I don't want to, the memories are kind of painful. I tried to be a good parent, so did my wife, inland wave, but the payoff for that effort isn't evident, yet.

No, I actually do wish you good luck in that regard, I honestly hope non-violent discipline works for your child. I really do.

[Dingfod]

You can raise a child without resulting to violence, however it takes a different mindset as it is still a fairly new concept to our culture.And one not proven to create better citizens, workers, and human beings as yet. Time will tell, fortunately or unfortunately. I'm hopeful and yet doubtful. Sorry.

[LadyShea]

So far so good (knock on wood or whatever). He is an incredibly busy little guy. He's very smart, very curious, advanced in both motor and verbal skills, and quite large for his age group (90th percentile height) so it's easy to forget he is only 18 mos and therefore expect "more" from him. In many ways he is more comparable to a 2+ year old, but emotionally and experientially he is still a baby, and it's been a surprise adjustment the few times that simple fact has been brought to our attention.

[LadyShea]

And one not proven to create better citizens, workers, and human beings as yet. Time will tell, fortunately or unfortunately. I'm hopeful and yet doubtful. Sorry.

Hope you don't mind discussing this issue further, in a more generalized way (societal versus personal)

Seems a difficult thing to "prove" as there is no way to correct for a host of other factors. Discipline doesn't happen in a vacuum so how will we be able to tell if it's the physical/non-physical that is the most influential factor in people becoming responsible adults?

[Dingfod]

I'm not sure how we can tell because, as Plant said, it's a fairly new concept to our culture. Fairly new, as in only the last couple of decades that corporal punishment has been looked down upon, and only the last decade or so has it begun to be criminalized. I think we're only just now beginning to see the product of that style of child rearing. I know every generation says this sort of thing about the succeeding generations. I guess history will be the judge.

I never wanted to have to hit my children. I was (and am) one of those sensitive kids where mere parental disapproval was devastating emotionally and a pretty effective behavior modification tool. As a result I was pretty well-behaved and did not get spanked a lot, but I did witness my youngest brother get the daylights wailed out of him on a routine basis (19 spankings one day, we counted) and thought he deserved everything he got, he was an evil child, almost demonic at times. However, at this point, as adults, I'm going to say he turned out to be the better person; more successful, more happy, and childless. So, I ... just ... don't ... know.

[LadyShea]

So you're basing "better" on success (assumingly in business), childlessness and apparent happiness? Is he kind, charitable, patient, honest, hard working and/or <insert a value important to you>?

Assertive, energetic, and possibly selfish people could tend to be more successful in business...but is he ethical in his business dealings? You say he is happy. Is it due to amassing things/money, or contributing positively to the world in some way? Having children or not is a very personal decision and I can see pros and cons either way, however I can't say one is "better" than the other.

Perhaps he is a better person, based on MY personal criteria of such things....which necessarily differ from yours.

Anyway I think from a methodological standpoint you can't base it on the relative number of spankings you and your brother received. I should think the differences now have much more to do with temperament, coping skills, motivation, and possibly health factors than received discipline.

[Dingfod]

So far as I know, my brother Paul is as kind and charitable, as honest and hard-working, and is just as nice a guy as one could ever hope to know. I'm proud to be his brother. He is successful in that he has a position with a renowned book publishing company which allows him to travel internationally fairly frequently, something he [and I] dreamed of doing as a youth. He is fluent in German and Russian, can converse in French and Spanish, even knows some Japanese. I do not think he has amassed any substantial amount of money or things, he lives in a modest apartment in NYC and has traveled considerably on his own time as well. I only mentioned him being childless because he is happy with that choice. Sometime I'm not so happy with the choices I've made.

I'm admit I'm not conducting a scientific study or survey, and my own experience and the others I've observed are only anecdotal. I haven't seen any studies or surveys that are really convincing in favor of one method or the other that don't also suffer the same problems, that there are just too many factors involved in what kind of person people become, the old nature vs nurture argument, evironment, genetic predisposition, personality, sensitivity (both emotional and pain), culture, religiosity, etc. to really credit or blame one particular child-rearing method over another.

As for temperament, coping skills, motivation, etc. in my brother's and my upbringing, our mother admits she lacked a lot of any of those. She was at times completely unreasonable. Sometimes I feared her. The knowledge that she wasn't equipped to handle child-rearing is one of the reasons she, despite being a nonbeliever herself, told me that she made us go to church every time there was a church function. She thought the church would help raise the children she couldn't really cope with very well. I don't feel like we were victims of abuse, many had it much worse, but it probably did border on that at times.

For some reason, I can't put together a coherent thought this morning. I guess I'm tired.