Why we should starve the homeless.

[justaman]

This thread is for Abe to explain his kooky take on the world :yup:

Frankly, I can't wait to hear how he figures this one. :P

[ApostateAbe]

When I moved to Seattle to start college, I naively thought it would be a good thing to give to roadside street beggers. I was a sucker. I gave some change to ratty-looking guy holding out his hat on University Way, and he started an annoying line of chatter in an attempt to be friendly. I said, "Well, I hope you pull yourself off the street eventually." And then he got pissed off. He told me that I shouldn't be giving him the third degree, he had thousands of dollars stored in a bank across the street, and he was on the street because that is what he chooses.

In Seattle, there are numerous public and private means to support one's self on one's own. One of my more charitable friends has said that many homeless people on the street are unresponsive when he tries to direct them to a place that provides free preparation for finding a job.

So I think the solution to the homeless problem would be a massive movement to stop giving to the homeless. We should shut down the soup kitchens and homeless charities and stop throwing money into the hats of street beggers and bad musicians. If we did, then almost all homeless people would either

1) Earn their fair share of money, or
2) Die.

Problem solved. The reason this is the only solution to the problem is that a huge amount of charitable resources are provided for the homeless. It is part of the Christian religion to provide for the poor, and it is a backbone of liberalism, so there are a bunch of churches and charities giving to the poor continuously. Yet very many remain chronically homeless.

You are homelss and you are addicted to drugs or alcohol. Tough shit. You'll recover from your problem when people stop giving you money to finance your addiction. You are homeless and you have mental problems. You still have the mental capacity to weed my lawn, mop my floor and bag my groceries. If you are smart enough to live on the street, you are smart enough to work, dumbass.

[lisarea]

I'm not going to argue that there aren't fraudulent street beggars. I once watched some teenaged girl in Boulder drive a BMW or something up behind a 7-11, park it next to the dumpster, walk around to the front of the store, sit down, and commence spanging.

It happens. There's fraud everywhere, though. I see no reason that there wouldn't be fraudulent beggars, just as there are fraudulent contractors, fraudulent salespeople, Ponzi schemes, etc. Unfortunately, there's always someone out there scheming to find a way to exploit our better nature (or, in some cases, our worse nature).

The ones who exploit our better nature are probably the worst, though. They're not just trying to trick us out of our money, but in the long run, they make us suspicious of everyone who needs help, and they end up making the world a crueler, meaner place. I don't know the answer. I don't often give money to beggars myself. I'd rather actually buy them some food or give them a blanket or a coat. But I do sometimes give them money when I can. I'm sure some of them didn't need it. Maybe the food is getting tossed in the trash. Maybe the money is going for liquor or drugs or padding some con man's bank account. I don't know. But I am willing to take that risk, because I don't want people to starve or freeze to death on the streets. And I don't want to let the con artists win by making the whole world as mean and as heartless as they are.

I guess it's easy to dismiss all homeless people based on a few experiences. It's even understandable, IMO. But why, then, extend charity to those who've broken down on the side of the road? They failed to plan appropriately. They didn't fill up their tanks, they didn't maintain their vehicles, they drove recklessly. Didn't check their oil and their tire pressure, didn't watch where they were going, maybe. Is it just because it's happened to you that you can sympathize with their plight? Is it because the transgression seems pretty minor? Because you can relate to it? And is it just because you've never found yourself out of a job, out of a home, mentally ill without support, that you can't sympathize with those who have?


So I think the solution to the homeless problem would be a massive movement to stop giving to the homeless. We should shut down the soup kitchens and homeless charities and stop throwing money into the hats of street beggers and bad musicians. If we did, then almost all homeless people would either

1) Earn their fair share of money, or
2) Die.

Problem solved. The reason this is the only solution to the problem is that a huge amount of charitable resources are provided for the homeless. It is part of the Christian religion to provide for the poor, and it is a backbone of liberalism, so there are a bunch of churches and charities giving to the poor continuously. Yet very many remain chronically homeless.

I don't think there is a solution. Ever since Reagan 'mainstreamed' the mentally ill, there has not been an adequate solution for people who really do suffer from mental illnesses that keep them from contributing or functioning in society without help.

Reagan and Clinton both put constraints on welfare that really put families in a bind. There's very little safety net left for families who've suffered a setback. With so many people in this country uninsured, even a relatively minor unexpected illness can set you on a course for disaster.

And in a society without any kind of workable safety net for those who have legitimate need, you really can't honestly establish that anyone out on the street is necessarily lazy, unmotivated, or unwilling to work. There is currently a trickle-down effect on shitty jobs right now. A lot of formerly white-collar workers are now competing for service jobs and unskilled labor that used to offer opportunities for people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. My son and his friends are having a hell of a time finding work these days. You almost have to know someone to get a job as a clerk or an unskilled laborer now because there are just too many people competing for the jobs out there. It's no stretch at all for me to imagine that there are people out there who really want to work but just can't get a job. And with the way the system is set up, especially if you have kids, you can be working full-time and still not make enough to survive.

In fact, I can't kid myself that somehow, if my circumstances were different, I would have been able to dig myself out of any situation. What if I were all alone in the world? What if I were schizophrenic? What if I were alcoholic? What if I had an accident? What if I lost everything in a fire and didn't have insurance? What if I got cancer or had a heart attack and didn't have insurance to pay for treatment? So, OK. Say I do deserve to die. Say something like that happened when my kid was little. Does he deserve to die, too, or should he just go to foster homes? And let's say he does. When he turns 18 and gets tossed out of the system, maybe with a shitty education from moving around foster homes, maybe with a background of abuse and neglect, and with no family support system, does he deserve to die if he can't make it?

Fortunately, none of that has happened so far, and fortunately, I do have a solid network of family and friends who wouldn't let me go without food and shelter if it did. But what if I didn't? I don't know, and I can't convince myself that I know I could overcome whatever circumstances I were faced with. I don't.

I'm just not so ready and willing to judge people who've suffered more than I have, I guess; and I'm definitely not ready to let the assholes out there become the default.

[ApostateAbe]

lisarea, I am not concerned about the ones who fraudulently beg for money even though they are rich. I am more disgusted with those who make a career out of being homeless. They travel from homeless shelter to homeless shelter, they play shitty music on street corners, they hold signs with lies about their starving children and they have big frowns on their faces, they have dogs, they sell homeless newspapers in front of grocery stores for a dollar each, and that can go on for years. Very many of them are alcoholics. Some are as you have hypothesized, and they normally don't remain homeless for more than a couple of months. Anyone who has something extremely unfortunate to them can find plenty of help everywhere, especially in America. They can go on welfare or unemployment, they can get help from charities, neighbors, churches, etc. I wouldn't recommend cutting off help from those people. I would recommend discerning between those who chronically homeless and those who are actually trying to be self-supportive.

[lisarea]

lisarea, I am not concerned about the ones who fraudulently beg for money even though they are rich. I am more disgusted with those who make a career out of being homeless. They travel from homeless shelter to homeless shelter, they play shitty music on street corners, they hold signs with lies about their starving children and they have big frowns on their faces, they have dogs, they sell homeless newspapers in front of grocery stores for a dollar each, and that can go on for years. Very many of them are alcoholics. Some are as you have hypothesized, and they normally don't remain homeless for more than a couple of months. Anyone who has something extremely unfortunate to them can find plenty of help everywhere, especially in America. They can go on welfare or unemployment, they can get help from charities, neighbors, churches, etc. I wouldn't recommend cutting off help from those people. I would recommend discerning between those who chronically homeless and those who are actually trying to be self-supportive.

I'm just not sure how to discern. Sure, there are some that I know just because they've been around for years. There's one guy around here who apparently loses his family and his home in a fire every few months. Sometimes he's bandaged, sometimes he's in a wheelchair, sometimes he wears a neckbrace or a sling, but he's always out there with his sign and his cup. There are people who go out and get mugged every day and are stranded without bus fare to get home.

But if I don't recognize them specifically or recognize their stories, how do I know which are which? I've read a lot lately about the usual resources at churches, food banks, and shelters being stretched to their limits. People are being turned away. And I've had plenty of experiences with people who really were unable to work and were teetering on the brink of homelessness for various reasons ranging from medical bills to disability to fraud (there are whole industries set up specifically to steal money from poor people), or any number of other things.

I guess I'd just rather err on the side of caution. I'd rather give someone a coat, a blanket, or a meal and risk having them throw it away than I would risk leaving someone to freeze or go hungry. And if I don't have a coat or a blanket or a meal, sometimes, I'll give them money. No, I don't want to be scammed, but I'd rather risk that, too.

(Honestly, I don't do it much these days. I don't usually carry much cash even when I do have money, and I don't frequent the areas where you get approached much these days, either. I just want to make it clear that I'm completely talking out of my ass at least in terms of what I'm doing right now.)

[Socratoad]

Dammit anyways, I have already started up one hornet's nest earlier today and so here I go again ..... off topic but this sort of shit makes me angry.


The homeless people are there mainly so that smug narrowly focused bastards can feel superior about their own mortgage filled empty lives. So that no matter how dead end their own circumstances they too have someone to look down their noses and make their circumstances appear bearable.

It does not seem to have occurred to so many that the real bigtime fraud is happening just above them and all the way to the top. Literally thousands of millions are syphoned off every day by money manipulators, and yet "we" can feel superior to those that are mainly mentally ill and therefore cluttering up "our" streets.

In Ontario we had a right wing government for two terms here until the people finally wizened up. How did they get elected in the first place? By talking about how homeless people and single mothers, especially single mothers were ripping off the honest taxpayers. I cannot help but notice that the right wing hate mongers always refer to people as taxpayers, never as citizens. Sure as hell the dumb voters bought into this shit and elected them, not once but twice. Only when they built golf courses all over the province for their buddies and corporate masters and looted the health care budget and left the province so far in debt that, even if all goes well it will take a generation before we are back to were we were before these thieving manipulating bastards came to power. Sound familiar ..... do a little research into Orange County California.

Sorry to have gone off on a tangent but I'm damned angry. What is there you who look down your noses at the poor, uneducated or mentally ill do not understand about economics. Have you ever considered that the single mother who perhaps receives a few lousy hundred bucks a month, and just maybe is able to walk down the street to buy a case of beer is a better world citizen than the so-called successful person who jets all over the fucking planet on vacation?
Somehow we really have screwed up economic values. Its as if economics has totally detached itself from the planet in which we all dwell. In other words "success" as measured by our system is usually a fucking failure in environmental as well as human terms.

So don't worry your little heads by looking up, continue to disdain those less fortunate than yourselves ..... hell thats what built this great fucking lie in the first place.

I have long noticed that in the USA mainly, but to an ever greater extent here in Canada that to bitch about the almost inconceivable billions being ripped off by the money manipulators one is generally accused of being envious, while those complaining about homeless people, single mothers, etc are considered to be public spirited and mindful of the tax bill.

Then some of you wonder why Bush received a second mandate! Perhaps such unsympathetic attitudes expressed here on this thread may suggest one of the reasons.

[Adora]

So we should starve the homeless...

Because Abe was stupid... I mean naive. And he just knows so much about homeless people, because he once gave money to one guy who lied to him to cover his pride (you can't fucking tell me you truly believe he had "thousands" in a bank across the street, really?), so every homeless person is exactly like that one guy.

Yeah, people who make a career our of being homeless are horrible! They're like those awful evil women who have abortions of convenience! So we should ban abortion! And not give money to shelters, so all the homeless people die, and no new generations of homeless people will ever come through, nu-uh. Cos once you kill off one batch, the rest will get the message, right?

Sorry, I have to stop here. My sarcasm-duct just ran dry and imploded.

[Farren]

[Dead Kennedys]
Kill kill kill kill kill the poor
Kill kill kill kill kill the poor
Kill kill kill kill kill the poor ...
[/Dead Kennedys]

What Adora and Socratoad said. All I see is a rationalisation for selfishness I've seen a hundred times before.

In a capitalist state, everything is owned. Every square inch of land. Every bit of useful mateial. Everything. Go out the the middle of nowhere, chop down a few trees, build a house and start growing food and you'll be arrested for trespassing.

So there are people who are, in fact, fucked. They can't get a job. They can't support themselves. They can't afford a home. Quite possibly the government can't provide them with decent shelter or food. What passes for "decent" government care may involve abusive environments. Many of them are mentally ill. They're not gonna sort themselves out if they're incentivised by being ignored. They're going to suffer and in some cases die.

Even distinguishing between the frauds, the slackers and the "chronically homeless" is mostly a big handwaving exercise. Is the product of a poverty-stricken, abusive home, a person who's never tried because their parents were victims of an industry that left them behind and all they've learned is helplessness and despair for 20-30 years of their life - is such a person a slacker, perhaps? Undeserving of sympathy?

In my experience, the people most qualified to make any such discernments are the people who really care, the people who pay a LOT of sympathetic attention to the lame and the halt and the homeless around them. Those are usually the people who are most willing to help the broadest number of people. The ones who rationalise and fuss and narrow down the people they'll give the time of day to to the smallest possible category are usually the peeps who are least qualified to discern in any meaningful manner.

Why? Because you don't develop a hell of a lot of empathy and proper understanding without first being sympathetic and generous of spirit. That kind of fussy picking and choosing betrays the reality, which is that reason is being employed to justify selfishness and the resulting rationalisation presented as civic-mindedness.

[Corwin]

Now don't take this personally Abe.... but as someone who hasn't worked for a year and a half, and is currently living with his parents (as an alternative to living on the streets... an alternative I'm fortunate to actually have...)

Blow me. :fuming:

[justaman]

1) Earn their fair share of money, or
2) Die.

Problem solved.
I suppose this is a solution. Kind of a 'final solution' if you will. Sorry to Godwin the thread, dude, but Jesus Christ what smack are you on?? Why is someone who meanders from one homeless shelter to another out of choice to be pitied less than someone who is so stupid they can't work out when they need to refuel??

I have no doubt that people do prefer the streets to working in a job, but surely you realise this is because of the world they know. In that world, they have a community. Often they have credibility and respect from others. Speaking from an Australian point of view, there are often groups who stick together and have their power players and their minions like any other organisation. It's mostly fueled through drugs, especially among the younger homeless people, and that is certainly a choice they've made as well, but this is because they - by definition - view society as less preferable. Doesn't that tell you something about their past, that their consideration of the world can become so horribly cynical? You can give us your example of the wealthy beggar, but I'm sure you realise I can shoot back any number of examples of young women sexually abused as children who run away to be taken into a world of drugs and crime that simply becomes an accepted part of their lives.

I really am not seeing where your abhorance is coming from.

Adora
Actually there is a guy in Brisbane known as 'Ziggy' who apparently has enough money stashed away to buy a house, but who chooses to live on a street in Toowong. He became a psuedo-celebrity when the community sought to have him removed, but Brisbane's Lord Mayor went to his defence. He was also more recently the subject of an entry for the Archibald Prize. His fame hasn't done him much good, though, since idiots keep on attacking him for fun.

[lady cop]

i was a "bleeding heart liberal hippie" in the 60's. have come 360 degrees. i used to hand over my own coat, i knew i was privileged and was quite idealistic. still am actually.... so now i am the :piggy: the homeless i am dealing with daily are living in camps in the woods. stealing from local retailers. regulars, coming to jail when it gets cold a couple months per year for some medical care, a bed, food. one of them last year got in a fight over a voddy bottle, hacked his buddy into pieces with an axe and put him on the campfire. it is my experience that the root of this problem is mental illness and alcoholism. i am not referring to the family person, the parent, who has fallen on bad times. who is living in their car and the kids are hungry. that is a painful thing to me as a woman and a human. do i get mad at the crack-whore "moms" who could give a rat's corpse over their babies? yes..i serve them all the time with writs to remove babies. and they cry and carry on like they were june cleaver, when in fact i found them giving some guy a $2.00 blow job in the bank parking lot ( this money is for crack, not baby food) while the baby was starving and laying in dirty diapers in the car. homelessness in america is a broad-spectrum problem with no apparent solution. because the causes are as diverse as its victims.

[Dingfod]

Since it's nearly impossible to discern who is truly needy or not, give them a fucking dollar now and then, unless you are almost homeless yourself it won't kill your budget and you'll be a better person for it.

One whole segment often forgotten are the working poor, some of whom are homeless and certainly not by choice. They are working and contributing to society, but in some local economies the only available jobs are often part-time and low wage jobs, sometimes seasonal and temporary at best, many times in many communities these jobs to not pay nearly enough for even subsistence level housing. All you have to do is look at the lowest rents in your city and then at what a person working 24 hours a week at minimum wage makes and you'd see why they are homeless. The waiting lists for public housing or subsidized housing are lengthy and mostly housing that is available is prioritized to go to families with children, a lot of it to single women with children, leaving many childless women and even more single men to fend for themselves on the streets.

True, some choose to live on the streets, but many places in America, men too poor to afford rent are out there because they are just plain out of luck. Many in that situation are underemployed as it is and cannot afford even the most basic rent and still be able to buy food and such. Without a home, just being able to get the basic personal hygiene done becomes a major hassle. Often this alone leads to a loss of employment--double whammy--homeless and out of work, no health or dental care, nothing but begging or standing in line down at the day labor place every day is left.

[Corwin]

There are people who are 'homeless by choice.' I've known them. (I went to college in Eugene, Oregon.) I have nothing but contempt for them.

However, they're a tiny minority of the homeless population. In Eugene, they're either a significant minority, or a slight majority.... but that's the exception, not the rule.

[Socratoad]

I'm so very much older than most of you on this board and any other I'm acquainted with. And although I'm not a person whom has ever deluded myself into thinking there ever was a golden age so to speak. And yet before uber capitalism really started moving into high gear, approximately thirty years ago, homelessness was relatively unknown, at least since the great depression of pre-WW2. There were actual jobs making actual things for even the most humble of persons. As capital became more and more a commodity jobs were intentionally made redundant and those at the lower end of the bell-curve became ever more vulnerable to the vagaries of capital movement and windfall profits gained by buying up companies, stripping them of their most valuable asset and closing down or moving the remaining parts far away or to distant lands.

And so when one points to drugs and mental breakdowns, is it just possible that we point to the symptoms and not the causes. In other words what came first. And when is progress not progress.

I offer myself as an example. I was pretty much raised as a slave, award of the children's aid and shoved onto a farm and never paid any attention by the authorities. I ran away at the age of thirteen and worked ever since. Granted I was fortunate as the Canadian Air Force (RCAF) tested me because although I lied my way into the service, after I started acing exams they found out I had an IQ of 157. Of course the snob ridden service could not stand someone with a brain being a mere airman and so strings were pulled, equivalency tests passed and just like magic I became an officer and a pilot. I have owned my own companies, and so on. I retired i8n my forties and then went to third world countries as a volunteer.

I give you that short and very incomplete resume to demonstrate that in the dog eat dog society that is the lot of so many these days I would not have stood a snowballs chance in hell.

[Adora]

Actually there is a guy in Brisbane known as 'Ziggy' ...
I know about Ziggy. I've seen him around a few times and once gave him two bucks. He's a nice fellow, if a bit difficult on the nose, and a few screws loose. So again, I doubt the fortune-story. Still, he's hardly representative of most of the homeless population of Australia.

[ApostateAbe]

I have nothing more to say at the moment. If you want to change my mind on the issue, you can do it be showing me significant evidence that the majority of homeless people are homeless by misfortune instead of by self-inflicted choice. I base my opinions on my own experiences from touring Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver, from churches, and the news I get from my friends and from the media. All the evidence tells me that the general homeless peoples in America are homeless by their own free will despite the best efforts of charities and the government. But scientific evidence would override my anecdotal experience.

[Socratoad]

Abe, just who are your friends, and just where the hell do you get your news. And either you are a damned poor judge of human nature or you are deliberately being obtuse.

I find it quite hard to believe that you are quite as stupid as you are appearing to be right now. Nor as big a damn fool. Is it perhaps that you post such drivel because you either crave attention or do you get your kicks by attempting to pull other peep's chains? Either way I'm quite underwhelmed.

[Corwin]

I have nothing more to say at the moment. If you want to change my mind on the issue, you can do it be showing me significant evidence that the majority of homeless people are homeless by misfortune instead of by self-inflicted choice. I base my opinions on my own experiences from touring Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver, from churches, and the news I get from my friends and from the media. All the evidence tells me that the general homeless peoples in America are homeless by their own free will despite the best efforts of charities and the government. But scientific evidence would override my anecdotal experience.

You haven't looked.

Gee.... about a minute of googletime.... (http://www.nationalhomeless.org/who.html)

And since you mentioned Seattle.... (http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/humanservices/fys/HomelessYouth/default.htm)

Still more.... (http://www.nrchmi.samhsa.gov/facts/facts_question_1.asp)

Is that scientific enough for you? Or is your ignorance only going to abate when we provide you with a list of interviews of every homeless person with their reasons for being homeless?

[Socratoad]

Thanks Corwin for providing those statistics and observations. Abe's wilful ignorance has really got me down. Perhaps your contribution just might help him to stop degrading himself and the board in general. As you have pointed out its not difficult to do a little research.

[justaman]

Actually there is a guy in Brisbane known as 'Ziggy' ...
I know about Ziggy. I've seen him around a few times and once gave him two bucks. He's a nice fellow, if a bit difficult on the nose, and a few screws loose. So again, I doubt the fortune-story. Still, he's hardly representative of most of the homeless population of Australia.
Yeah I've only seen him once, driving past. I want to have a chat with him before I leave. Dunno why, really.

And in all honesty I'm by no means sure about the fortune story anymore. It's something I've heard a few times, but I can't find him ever actually being quoted as having said it, and certainly I don't think anyone's bothered to check. I believe the story goes that the money is back in Russia or something.

Eh, either way, he does appear to be someone who remains on the streets by choice, but I also agree he's not at all representative of the homeless population.

[ApostateAbe]

Thanks, Corwin, for those websites. Socratoad, I am trying to have an open mind about this. It is hard to change the opinions that have been brought through my knowledge of the world and my personal biases. You can help me out by finding the specific studies that tell us homelessness is not a willful choice. All I have before me are large websites, and it will take me a day or two to sort through it. Please don't let this thread turn into an Abe-is-teh-stupid discussion. You can start another thread for that. Better yet, don't let anyone's ignorance get you down. There are many ignorant people in the world, so you just have to accept it and make yourself happy regardless.

[Socratoad]

Abe , I'm sorry if I let my anger flare up a little too much. If you carefully reread my postings I think that you will get a better idea from how my experiences have brought me to the conclusions that I have. Abe its all about empathy.

I am really quite impressed that you did not lose your temper and just tell me to go to health. In all honesty I was about to write you off as a person whom I wished to converse with on any subject.

As for statistics, unfortunately statistics can, and often are manipulated to obtain the desired results. I prefer to look into the broad climatic economy\c changes inn our respective societies that have, in my opinion brought us to the state we are now find ourselves in.


I'm very overtired right now and so am probably making a mess of my desire to clarify my thoughts, studies and experiences in these fields.

I will tell a small story, not in anyway complete but it might give you and others a glimpse into my thoughts. Before WW11 it had been pretty much a very exploitive economy ... let the strong and those with connections survive and screw everybody else. Along came Franklin Delano Roosevelt and started the new deal as people were literally starving. He was no saint but he with many pushes from his wife realized the injustice and pain throughout your land. Then came the war. After the war the vets came home and in your nation, plus mine, plus in Britain and they were in no mood to return to the bad old days of the robber barons. Both the USA and even more so Canada entered a period of relative prosperity and respect and help for the common man. I was a very young man after the war and I assure you that there was one hell of a lot more empathy going around in those days.

All this lasted for approximately twenty five years. I swear that you could have counted the homeless on one hand in the city of Toronto, incidentally it is now into the thousands in that one city alone.

Right wing reactionaries and greed mongers disdainfully dubbed all this the welfare state and did their best to destroy it. Along came the eighties the era of insane greed started. Fuck the poor, dump the mentally ill onto the streets, dismantle the industries that those with lower and even average people on the bell curve were able to function in quite satisfactory, if fact in so many cases were able to excel in better then many of us with so-called higher IQ.

I would like to try to further try to explain what I think is the major cause f societal disruptions, but I'm just far too tired as its going on forty eight hours since I was able to sleep. Hence my instant anger when I read your original post.

There are many mistakes in my overly simplistic portrayal of the ills of society, but please everyone don't indulge your juvenile glee innit picking every little point I have made her. This is not meant to be a high school like debate where everyone tries their best to score Brownie points by making the other person look stupid. I think that at least in what I wish to speak about in this forum is a combined attempt by many of us to actually make a difference rather than much of what I see. If no one is really interested in this approach then I may have to only treat this board or the other one as amusement places were one-up-manship is the name of the game.

The few thoughts I have tried to throw together here have been straight from my heart, without any attempt to impress by fancy footwork. steam of consciousness if you like from an old man who is punch drunk at this moment.

Abe you may have started a thread even though inadvertently that could result in many of us actually talking to each other rather than at each other.

Give it some thought. I have barely started to outline, let alone cover the subject, but ....

Sorry for the many mistakes.

[Adora]

All the evidence tells me that the general homeless peoples in America are homeless by their own free will despite the best efforts of charities and the government.
Rewrite, please: "All the limited experience I have had through certain unobjective non-statistical mediums tells me that..."

Fuck "free" will. If I had to make a choice between an abusive spouse or partner who was threatening my children as well, and homelessness, I'd be picking the latter. Why? Because you may be without a home, but at least you still have your life.

Why did I bring that up? Because the most common reason for homeless females and children is domestic violence. Over and over again the same stories of physical and sexual abuse come up in regards to these people who have left home and live on the streets. So, I'm sorry Abe, but how does your "Let's not give money to charities" theory work with helping these people? They should stay in the houses and let themselves be greatly harmed or killed?

Right. Just brilliant.

I believe the story goes that the money is back in Russia or something.
...

[JoeP]

Damn good point A.

[Darren]

When I moved to Seattle to start college, I naively thought it would be a good thing to give to roadside street beggers. I was a sucker. I gave some change to ratty-looking guy holding out his hat on University Way, and he started an annoying line of chatter in an attempt to be friendly. I said, "Well, I hope you pull yourself off the street eventually." And then he got pissed off. He told me that I shouldn't be giving him the third degree, he had thousands of dollars stored in a bank across the street, and he was on the street because that is what he chooses.



Have you never considered the possibility that he was "pulling your wire"?
Perhaps he didn't enjoy being patronised, who does?
Charity is good as a last resort, but your OP highlights its essentially problematic nature because it lends itself to endowing the "giver" with a sense of superiority and places the "receiver" in a position of inferiority.
The good thing about tax (and here I mean proper taxation designed to redistribute wealth) is that it can replace charity. By giving the money to a third (and ideally neutral) party, i.e. the state, the unequal power relation between giver and receiver is undermined by anonymity, and those in need of assistance can get it without being too patronised and otherwise abused.
This is just one of the benefits genuine wealth redistribution can offer society.
As Socratoad points out, this is what the (post-Keynesian) right wing (dreamed by Milton Freidman, incarnated by Pinochet, Thatcher, Reagan and other soulless money/power mongers) have tried to destroy, hence the unfortunates "cluttering up" the streets on your way to college and the good life.
(Would the resultant corpses cluttering the streets be better in your view, or would you prefer the dying to be done in some sort of resettlement zone for the poor?)

[Socratoad]

When I moved to Seattle to start college, I naively thought it would be a good thing to give to roadside street beggers. I was a sucker. I gave some change to ratty-looking guy holding out his hat on University Way, and he started an annoying line of chatter in an attempt to be friendly. I said, "Well, I hope you pull yourself off the street eventually." And then he got pissed off. He told me that I shouldn't be giving him the third degree, he had thousands of dollars stored in a bank across the street, and he was on the street because that is what he chooses.



Have you never considered the possibility that he was "pulling your wire"?
Perhaps he didn't enjoy being patronised, who does?
Charity is good as a last resort, but your OP highlights its essentially problematic nature because it lends itself to endowing the "giver" with a sense of superiority and places the "receiver" in a position of inferiority.
The good thing about tax (and here I mean proper taxation designed to redistribute wealth) is that it can replace charity. By giving the money to a third (and ideally neutral) party, i.e. the state, the unequal power relation between giver and receiver is undermined by anonymity, and those in need of assistance can get it without being too patronised and otherwise abused.
This is just one of the benefits genuine wealth redistribution can offer society.
As Socratoad points out, this is what the (post-Keynesian) right wing (dreamed by Milton Freidman, incarnated by Pinochet, Thatcher, Reagan and other soulless money/power mongers) have tried to destroy, hence the unfortunates "cluttering up" the streets on your way to college and the good life.
(Would the resultant corpses cluttering the streets be better in your view, or would you prefer the dying to be done in some sort of resettlement zone for the poor?)

Good post Darren, Its my belief that you either bring all of society along with you or else you protect yourself from society by building ever more higher fences around gated communities and shooting down the starving justifiably angry mobs at the gates.

I know that by bringing all society along a society (read greedy profiteers) is unable to move at as fast a pace as stock markets and others bastions of economic insanity would prefer however methinks the answer is clear.

[Bella]

Abe, while I can't for the life of me imagine how one could ignore some of the excellent points offered by other participants of this thread, I can say that I do understand your frustration over people who willingly choose a life of mooching.

I had a friend who lost her job as a legal secretary. Her house burnt down (an electrical fire). Her son ran away from home at age 17. Her husband divorced her for a younger woman, et cetera. She now roves between shelters, accepting hand-outs and asking for money from her friends whenever the situation appears to be "too dire." I once asked her why she didn't just get a job at McDonalds and start saving money. She looked at me like I was nuts and said "McDonalds? Do you know what I used to do before my house burnt down? Are you crazy? McDonalds?"

:rolleye1:

[Corona688]

Can we hold off on the let's-hate-abe fest for a while? I personally don't agree with him either, but I think some of the best evidence and such has been brought up after his latest post.

Moreover, screaming-in-face isn't an effective way of convincing anyone of anything. Tell someone "you're an idiot for thinking that" and they'll do their damndest to prove you wrong no matter what the cost, because you've made it personal.

[Farren]

But, but...

he is an idiot. There's no getting around it. Subtlety will confuse him.

(Just kidding Abe ;) )

Corona, you're a month late, dude. Berating people when they've probably forgotten what the thread was all about is a little odd.

[Dragar]

Well, since the thread has returned again, here's my two cents:

I'm often quite wary of giving money to people asking me for money on the streets, as the odds are quite high that they don't really need the money for a bus fare/train fare/something to eat, but actually want to get another pint or whatever their addiction is.

For this reason, the last time someone asked me for some coppers to help buy them some food, I bought them a hot sausage roll from the corner.

I wandered off, and took a look behind me. He didn't seem to be eating it, and I did wonder if he was playing a game, for whatever reason. But I find it incredibly hard to ignore someone who is claiming to be starving.

As an aside, there are official notices up around the city saying not to give money to beggers, but via a reputable charity. I'd assume this is to make sure the money is spent on the right things, as opposed to fueling addictions.

[viscousmemories]

They tried a program in Ann Arbor for awhile, not sure if they're still doing it, where various local retailers had collection jugs where you could donate money that would be earmarked for care for the area homeless folks. Seemed like a good way to let people contribute without handing cash to someone that would likely misuse it.

Ann Arbor homeless folks were spoiled, though. They used to come into the deli and ask for handouts, and when I'd offer them bagels or bread they'd say "aw come'on man, make me a sandwich!" When I refused they left in a huff. :giggle:

Of course we were one of few area restaurants that let them hang out and did occassionally hook them up with free food. We were all bleeding heart liberal partiers though, so what were we gonna do? One of the many times we had to call the cops to come help a homeless guy that passed out in our dining area I was sitting there on my break, drunk myself and sucking beer through a straw in my to-go cup.

A cop sat down across the table from me and gave me a lecture about how these people come to our place 'cause we feed them, and if we'd just stop feeding them they'd go away. I was pretty amused both by the fact that he was talking about people as if they were stray animals, and by the irony of the nearly imperceptible difference between myself and the passed out guy.

[Desert Dweller]

It's not often I actually feel grateful to a contributor to a thread in a forum but on this occasion I dips me lid to Socratoad. Thank you Socratoad for your first post in this thread.
To have sailed passed that is, to my mind, wilful ignorance; what started as a possibly funny or satirical position quickly deteriorated.

Those with no appreciation of mental illness in our society and the way in which residential hospitals have been closed and patients thrown onto the street (all in the name of reducing expenditure) really ought to spend a little time and find out a few home truths.

[Legs]

Living in the suburbs I was never exposed to the homeless situation, sure you see it on the news and you feel a pang of empathy and then resign yourself that there are shelters and programs to help these people.

Then when I started working in the city, what a shock. At first I was always giving my change or food to them, but as time progressed I became more and more desensitized to their presense, you wonder why after 18 months the same guy is in the same doorway. Why have they not tried to inprove their quality of life by working with the programs that are available to them?

More and more I realized that giving them handouts is just enabling them to continue this lifestyle which they choose to stay in. They are getting enough to get by, this is their niche. They fight amongst each other for territory.

After giving the same people money and food and gloves in winter when I stopped doing so they became verbally abusive. They scowl and stare and try to intimidate until you have to change your daily routing to avoid contact with them.

I also noticed that they are very savvy and manipulative with the areas they choose to 'work' in, (ie) peering at you through restaurant windows and waiting for you to come out... or theatre shows etc.. obviously trying to make you feel guilty.

I don't think people conciously or willingly decided to be homeless, but I do feel that they choose to remain that way and do not utilize avenues available to them to improve **their situation. **I realize there are people with mental defficiencies that this is not possible for.

Bree, the friend you describe is almost a carbon copy to someone I know, she was depressed after her husband left her she was fired from her job as a medical technician. She went on the dole and when that ran out hit up friends and family for money eventually she ended up living at a shelter and begging during the day. She had LOADS of experience in her field and a formal education, she was personable and bright but she chooses to do what she is doing now. It is like bizarro world :eek:

[TomJoe]

Sometimes, when you're down, at the very bottom... you don't think you can ever do anything to improve your life. I don't think that many of the homeless love they life they live, they just don't think there is anything else out there for them.

[seebs]

Supply-side Jesus (http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/17_franken.html) says we're just making them lazy.

[ApostateAbe]

Supply-side Jesus (http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/17_franken.html) says we're just making them lazy.I love that. Sadly, it's the last time Al Franken was funny.

[maddog]

Supply-side Jesus (http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/17_franken.html) says we're just making them lazy.I love that. Sadly, it's the last time Al Franken was funny.
Well, I happen to disagree with both parts of that. Supply-side Jesus isn't funny. But Franken has done/said funny things since then.

As to the "choice" to remain homeless:
Don't rule out the role that depression plays. When you're down, you tend to stay down. It takes outside intervention to break the cycle. And once you've been out of a job for a while, just see who hires you. That cycle is hard to break, too.

I think the solution to the homeless problem would be a massive movement to stop giving to the homeless. We should shut down the soup kitchens and homeless charities and stop throwing money into the hats of street beggers and bad musicians. If we did, then almost all homeless people would either

1) Earn their fair share of money, or
2) Die.

Problem solved.

"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" "I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."



You are homeless and you have mental problems. You still have the mental capacity to weed my lawn, mop my floor and bag my groceries. If you are smart enough to live on the street, you are smart enough to work, dumbass. Have you actually dealt with mentally ill people? How many would you invite to mop your floor? How much would you pay them?

almost all homeless people would . . .

1) Earn their fair share of money, . . . And how much would that be?
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