Arbor Day Collection Drive

[curses]

I brought this idea up in the countdown thread, and people seemed keen, so I'll throw it out to see if anyone else is interested as well.

I wanted to "buy" a tree in memorial of quiet bear, and what better place than his home state. Here's the website for Delaware State Parks (http://www.destateparks.com/know/memtrees/memorial.htm). I emailed them today to ask about specifics, and here's what I got in return:

I have enclosed the information on the Memorial tree program. Please review the information and get back to me with any further questions that you may have. As for your questions

1) I cannot give you a firm price on a tree until a location and species is decided as those are factors. Trees generally cost between $125- 250.

2) There is not a plaque, but a certificate which is mounted in the park office of the chosen park. This certificate may have multiple names listed from that years donations. Generally, we replace them the following year and have an updated list. You would be given an individualized certificate for the person you are honoring.


I figured we could get the certificate to Sis to have, and we'd need his full name as well (I lost the letter he sent me :blush:) So I guess the next step is to pick a park and a tree species. What do you guys think? Anyone familiar with Delaware that could suggest a place? Anyone want to donate as well?

[godfry n. glad]

Superb idea.

I'll donate.

I'd suggest a white oak (Quercus alba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_oak)). It's a slow-growing, but a huge and strong tree. It shades, protects and provides home and food for wildlife.

[livius drusus]

I'll donate as well. I have his full name from last year's Secret Santa.

One thing: I'd like to shop around a little for a memorial option that keeps his name on or around the tree instead of in the park office for a year. Definitely keep it in Delaware, but maybe there's another park or a tree-planting program we could investigate?

[Shelli]

As you know, I'm in. :nod: and whichever :tree: we end up going with is fine by me. I'll PM you tomorrow about it, curses. Right now it's just too hard to even think about. :tear: Thank you so much for thinking of this and running with it. :huggle:

ETA: Also.. what liv said. :nod:

[curses]

I'm fine if y'all can help find another site..I have a temp job for the next few days and will only have internet when I'm at home, so my ability to research will be limited...

And godfry, I like the white oak idea :)

[Dingfod]

I'm in.

[The Lone Ranger]

I'll happily contribute.

White Oak is a superb choice. I really think it must be a species of tree that's native to Delaware. "Memorial trees" are so-often non-native species, and I think that's abominable.

If anyone wants, I can easily whip up a list of species native to Delaware, along with comments about the conditions under which each species will tend to do best.

Is there an arboretum you could donate the tree to? Most arboretums will be more than happy to put up a plaque describing who the tree was donated in memory of. (If it's planted in an arboretum, the "native species only" policy need not apply.)

Cheers,

Michael

[curses]

That would be really good, TLR.
:nod:

[godfry n. glad]

Is there an arboretum you could donate the tree to? Most arboretums will be more than happy to put up a plaque describing who the tree was donated in memory of. (If it's planted in an arboretum, the "native species only" policy need not apply.)

According to this (http://philly.parentzone.com/linkinfo.asp?lid=186834&prid=468), there's a state park in Wilmington with an arboretum. I'm not too sure about that, though. It's pretty urban. From my memories of quiet bear, he'd like a more non-urban area. I'm not sure how he'd feel about a plaque, either. But, I'll go with whatever.

This (http://www.treasuresofthesea.org/other.html) looks a bit more like what I'd like to see.

Dingfod could probably come up with some mo' better suggestions. He's a better Google searcher than I.

[ChuckF]

I will happy contribute. I don't know where qb lived in the state, but I went to school in northern DE for a couple of years. I can think of two state parks that are not at all urban and are great. White Clay Creek and Brandywine Creek State Park. Brandywine Creek is especially pretty, and it's relatively far from highway. I don't know if it has an arboretum.

[Dingfod]

Dingfod could probably come up with some mo' better suggestions. He's a better Google searcher than I.You're doing fine.

[curses]

Chuck, he actually lived in Bear, DE.

[ITSOZAZ]

that's a very kind thing to do, curses. good on ya. :)

[Pinecone]

I would like to contrib to Quiet Bears tree. I do not have a paypal so could you PM me let me know if I could do it some other way?

[godfry n. glad]

Both excellent suggestions, Chuck.

Here's the White Clay Creek (http://www.destateparks.com/wccsp/index.asp).

Here's the Brandywine Creek (http://www.destateparks.com/bcsp/bcsp.asp).

There's also Lums Pond (http://www.destateparks.com/lpsp/lpsp.asp), which is actually the closest state park to Bear, Delaware.

And, the Bellevue (http://www.destateparks.com/bvsp/bvsp.htm) site, which is the state park which is supposed to have an arboretum. Funny though, the website doesn't mention an arboretum. Maybe I didn't look close enough.

The Delaware Technical & Community College is in Georgetown, in south Delaware, a goodly distance from where qb lived. I'd personally prefer to see it go somewhere where he might have tramped on a frequent basis. For that, I think both of Chuck's recommendations are capital.

[godfry n. glad]

I would like to contrib to Quiet Bears tree. I do not have a paypal so could you PM me let me know if I could do it some other way?

Likewise.

[Crumb]

I would like to contribute as well. It would be great if we could get a tree somewhere that qb liked to roam, though that may be difficult.

Great work everyone!

[Stormlight]

I'm in, too.

[Watser?]

I already said so in the countdown, but for the record I am in too.

[The Lone Ranger]

I worked up a quick list of pretty-much every tree species that is native to Delaware, along with a short description. If people pick a handful of “favorite” species, I can provide more detailed descriptions and habitat requirements.

If it's of interest, Delaware's State Tree is the American Holly (Ilex opaca).


Some Prominent Tree Species Native to Delaware:

Deciduous Trees:

Acer negundo (Box Elder): A small- to medium-sized tree that grows up to about 60 feet. It is fast-growing but relatively short-lived. It often has multiple trunks and isn’t generally considered to be an especially attractive or otherwise noteworthy tree. It prefers bright light and likes fairly wet soils, so it tends to grow well on riverbanks and in open park lands if it’s well-watered.

Acer rubrum (Red Maple or Swamp Maple): This is a medium-sized tree that grows up to about 90 feet or so. It is a very common forest tree in Delaware. It tolerates wet soils, but is very adaptable and will grow in just-about any soil. It’s often planted as a shade tree or as an ornamental, because of its brilliant red autumn foliage.

Acer saccharinum (Silver Maple or Water Maple): This is a fast-growing, medium-sized tree that reaches 90 feet or so. It is a common forest tree in Delaware, but grows best in sunny sites and moist soils. The wood tends to be very brittle, and so this species is especially susceptible to storm damage. Even so, it’s often planted as an ornamental or as a shade tree.

Acer saccharum (Sugar Maple): This is a medium-sized tree that reaches 80 feet or so. It’s a very common forest tree in Delaware and tolerates a wide variety of habitats. Because of this and because of its spectacular fall foliage, it’s often planted as an ornamental or as a shade tree.

Amelanchier arborea (Common Serviceberry): This is a small tree or large shrub that rarely grows more than 30 feet tall. It’s a common species in the forest understory. It has white flowers that bloom in the early Spring, before the leaves open.

Betula lenta (Sweet Birch): This is a medium-sized tree that grows up to about 60 feet. The twigs smell of wintergreen and wintergreen oil used to be harvested from these trees commercially, but they are otherwise not considered especially noteworthy trees.

Betula nigra (River Birch or Water Birch): This is a medium-sized tree that reaches heights of 70 feet or so. As the names imply it is usually found along riverbanks and doesn’t do well in drier soils.

Betula populifolia (Gray Birch): This is the species most people think of when they think of birch trees, with its striking white or light-gray bark. It’s a small, fast-growing and short-lived tree that rarely gets much more than 30 feet tall. It does best in drier soils, but tolerates a wide variety of soil conditions.

Carya alba (Mockernut Hickory): This is a medium- to large-sized tree that can reach 100 feet and is quite long-lived. It tends to have a very straight trunk and is generally considered to be a handsome tree that is sometimes planted for shade. It’s a common forest tree that tolerates a wide variety of soils and produces nuts that are important food sources for squirrels and other animals. Some people harvest and eat the nuts, though they’re legendary for their hardness and difficulty to open.

Carya cordiformis (Bitternut Hickory), Carya glabra (Pignut Hickory): These trees are virtually identical to Carya alba in growth form, height, and longevity.

Carya ovalis (Red Hickory): Similar to Carya alba, but smaller. (Reaches 80 feet or so in height.)

Carya ovata (Shagbark Hickory): This is a large species that can reach 120 feet or more in height and can live for 200 years or more. Its most distinctive feature is its “shaggy” bark; no other tree has bark that looks quite like that of a Shagbark Hickory.

Celtis occidentalis (Hackberry): This is a medium-sized tree that reaches 60 feet or so. It is a fairly common forest species that produces dark red, edible berries that can be important food for squirrels. It tends to do best in fairly alkaline soils.

Cercis canadensis (Eastern Redbud): This is a small tree or large shrub. It produces bright pink flowers in the early Spring before the leaves come out. It is often planted as an ornamental for its flowers.

Chionanthus virginicus (Fringe Tree): This is a small tree that can reach 30 feet or so in the South; in colder climates it’s smaller, more of a large shrub. It produces distinctive white flowers in the late Spring or early Summer, and is often planted as an ornamental.

Diospyros virginiana (American Persimmon): This is a small- to medium-sized tree that reaches 60 feet or so. It is often planted for its fruit, which is important to wildlife and is sometimes harvested by humans.

Fagus grandifolia (American Beech): This is one of the most common forest trees in Delaware – perhaps the most common. It grows to 100 feet or so, is long-lived, and is generally considered a handsome tree that is often planted for shade. It has distinctive, smooth bark that some people like to carve their initials into.

Fraxinus americana (White Ash): This is a large tree that grows to over 100 feet. It is generally considered to be a handsome species and is often planted as a shade tree, and for its fall foliage.

Fraxinus nigra (Black Ash or Water Ash): This is a smaller tree than White Ash, reaching only 60 feet or so. It tends to prefer wetter soils.

Fraxinus pennsylvanica (Green Ash): This tree grows to about 70 feet. Like Black Ash, it prefers moist soils, though it is more tolerant of drier soils than is Black Ash.

Juglans nigra (Black Walnut): This is a medium- to large-sized tree that reaches 100 feet or so. It is often planted as a shade tree and is a common forest species in Delaware. The large nuts it produces in the Fall are important food for wildlife and are sometimes harvested by humans.

Liquidambar styraciflua (Sweet Gum): This is a medium-sized tree up to 80 feet or so; it is a common forest species in Delaware that tolerates a wide variety of habitats. It has very distinctive-looking leaves and fruits, and is often planted as a shade tree and for its fall foliage.

Liriodendron tulipifera (Tulip Tree or Yellow Poplar): This is a large tree that reaches 100 feet or more. It’s a common forest species in Delaware that tolerates a wide variety of habitats. It has a straight trunk and is considered a handsome tree; it is often planted as a shade tree and for its bright yellow fall foliage. In the Spring, it has green-and-yellow, tulip-shaped flowers.

Magnolia virginiana (Sweetbay Magnolia): This is a small tree that rarely grows above 20 feet in height. Delaware is near the northern limit of its range, so it doesn’t grow especially well there. Even so, it is sometimes planted as an ornamental for its large white flowers in the Spring and its bright red Fall fruits.

Malus angustifolia (Southern Crabapple), Malus coronaria (Sweet Crabapple): These are small trees that are not common in Delaware, as it’s near the northern limit of their range. They are sometimes planted for their showy and fragrant Spring flowers and for their Fall fruit.

Morus rubra (Red Mulberry): This is a small tree (up to 60 feet) that is fairly rare and is considered a threatened species in the United States. It is sometimes planted for its edible, very sweet, blackberry-like fruit. (In my experience, it’s almost impossible to get the fruit before the birds do, though.)

Nyssa sylvatica (Black Gum): This is a medium-sized tree that reaches 80 feet or so. It grows best in moist soils, but tolerates a wide range of conditions. (It doesn’t grow as tall in drier soils.) It is often planted as an ornamental for its deep green foliage and for its fall foliage.

Ostrya virginiana (Eastern Hop-hornbeam): This is a small tree (up to 40 feet or so) that is a fairly common forest tree in Delaware.

Platanus occidentalis (American Sycamore): This is a massive tree that grows to 120 feet or more and is very broad. It has very distinctive bark that flakes off, revealing white and green patches beneath. American Sycamore is one of the most widely-planted of shade trees and tolerates a wide variety of soil conditions.

Populus deltoides (Eastern Cottonwood): This is a fairly fast-growing tree that can reach 100 feet in height. It tolerates a wide variety of soil conditions and is often planted as a shade tree and for its bright yellow Fall foliage. It is rare in Delaware, and isn’t an important forest species there.

Populus grandidentata (Large-tooth Aspen): This is a medium-sized, fast-growing, but short-lived tree. It does well in poor and sandy soils where most other trees cannot grow well.

Populus heterophylla (Swamp Cottonwood): This is a medium- to large-sized tree that grows to 80 feet or so. It is not common in Delaware. As its common name implies, it tends to do best in moist soils and is primarily a Coastal Plain species.

Prunus serotina (Black Cherry): This is a very common forest tree in Delaware. It is a medium- to large-sized tree that can reach 100 feet. It is sometimes planted as a shade tree. It produces white flowers in the Spring. Its fruit is important food for wildlife and is sometimes eaten by humans or used to make wine.

Quercus alba (White Oak): This is a massive tree that reaches 100 feet or more in height and is very broad as well. It is a common and important forest species, because its acorns are important food for squirrels, deer, and other species. It has a straight trunk and is considered a handsome tree; it is often planted as a shade tree. It is a fairly slow-growing, but long-lived species.

Quercus bicolor (Swamp White Oak): This species is similar to Quercus alba but is smaller (about 80 feet in height). It tends to grow in wetter soils.

Quercus coccinea (Scarlet Oak): This species is smaller than White Oak (reaches about 80 feet), but it is a fairly common forest species. It is sometimes planted as a shade tree or as an ornamental, as it is one of the few oak species with colorful Fall foliage.

Quercus falcata (Southern Red Oak), Quercus lyrata (Overcup Oak): These species can reach 90 feet or so and tolerate a wide variety of soil conditions. They’re more drought-tolerant than are most trees.

Quercus marilandica (Blackjack Oak): This is a relatively small oak species that rarely reaches 50 feet in height. It is very tolerant of poor soil conditions, however.

Quercus michauxii (Swamp Chestnut Oak): This is a medium-sized oak that reaches 80 feet or so. It tolerates a wide variety of soil conditions, but is more tolerant of wet soils than are most other oak species.

Quercus nigra (Water Oak): This is a fairly fast-growing oak that reaches 75 feet or so. It tolerates a wide variety of soils, including wet soils.

Quercus palustris (Pin Oak): This is a fast-growing oak that reaches 80 feet or so. Its lower branches tend to droop, giving it a distinct shape. It is often planted as an ornamental, and tolerates a wide variety of soil conditions.

Quercus phellos (Willow Oak): This is a fairly fast-growing oak that reaches 80 feet or so. It has willow-like leaves (hence the common name) that easily distinguish it from other oak species. Like most oaks, it tolerates a wide variety of soils. It is often planted as an ornamental.

Quercus prinus (Chestnut Oak): This is a fairly fast-growing oak that reaches 70 feet or so. It has chestnut-like leaves that distinguish it from other oak species. It is a common forest species in drier soils; it doesn’t tolerate wet or poorly-drained soils very well.

Quercus rubra (Northern Red Oak): This is a fast-growing oak that reaches 75 feet or so. Like most oaks, it tolerates a wide variety of soil conditions, but doesn’t like wet or poorly-drained soils. Like Scarlet Oak and unlike almost any other oak species, it has bright red leaves in the Fall.

Quercus stellata (Post Oak): This is a slow-growing oak that reaches only 50 feet or so in height. It is a very hardy and drought-tolerant species, however, which is why it is often planted as a shade tree.

Quercus velutina (Black Oak): This is a massive tree that can reach 140 feet in height (60 - 80 feet is more usual though) and is almost as broad as it is tall. Black oaks can live for well over 200 years. Like most oaks, it tolerates a wide variety of soil conditions, but doesn’t cope well with wet soils. It tolerates more acidic soils than do many oak species.

Salix caroliniana (Carolina Willow or Coastal Plain Willow): This is a small tree or large shrub that only grows to 20 feet or so. Like most willows, it grows best in wet soils, such as along riverbanks.

Salix nigra (Black Willow or Swamp Willow): This is a medium-sized tree that reaches 90 feet or so. Like most willows, it grows in wet soils such as along riverbanks or in swamps.

Sassafras albidum (Sassafras): This is a small tree that rarely reaches 50 feet in height. Its roots were sometimes used to make “sassafras tea.” Its fruits are important food for birds and other wildlife, and it has colorful Fall foliage, but it is rarely planted.

Taxodium distichum (Bald Cypress): This tree grows best in wet soils and is not tolerant of freezing conditions. Under ideal conditions, it can reach 100 feet, but it rarely gets that large as far north as Delaware. It is one of the few deciduous conifers. Bald Cypress is one of the longest-lived of tree species, and it’s not unusual for a tree to live for 1,200 years or more.

Tilia americana (American Basswood or American Linden): This is a tall, shapely tree that often reaches 100 feet or more. It is tolerant of a wide variety of soil conditions and is often planted as a shade tree. It tolerates drought well, but does not do well in wet soil.

Ulmus americana (American Elm): This is a large, beautiful tree that can reach 120 feet or more, and is almost as wide. Unfortunately, because of its susceptibility to Dutch Elm Disease, few trees survive long-enough to reach these sizes. Even so, it is widely planted as a shade tree.

Ulmus rubra (Slippery Elm): This is a fast-growing tree that can reach 60 feet. It tolerates a wide variety of soils and is quite drought-tolerant. It is a fairly common forest tree, but is rarely planted.



Evergreen Trees:

Chamaecyparis thyoides (Atlantic White Cedar): This tree grows to 50 feet or so and has a very slim growth form. It is often planted as an ornamental, but it is native to coastal regions and needs lots of sun. It is not really a forest tree, and doesn’t grow in inland habitats.

Ilex opaca (American Holly): This is Delaware’s State Tree. This is a slow-growing tree with thick, glossy-green leaves and bright red berries in the Winter (only female trees produce berries). The berries are important food for birds and other animals. It reaches heights of 60 feet or so. It tolerates a wide variety of soils, but does not do well in wet soils or in very windy habitats. It is often planted as an ornamental.

Juniperus virginiana (Eastern Red Cedar): This is a fairly small, fast-growing tree that can reach 40 feet or so. It does best in full sun and can tolerate very poor soils, but it’s short-lived. It’s sometimes considered a “weedy” species and is rarely planted except as a windbreak or “living fence.”

Pinus echinata (Shortleaf Pine): This is a fast-growing pine that can reach 100 feet. Like most pines, it needs lots of sun and tolerates poor soils, but is rarely planted as an ornamental.

Pinus rigida (Pitch Pine): This pine species is slower-growing than is Shortleaf Pine, and grows to only 60 feet or so. Like most other pines, it tolerates fairly poor soil and requires lots of sun, but it’s rarely planted as an ornamental.

Pinus serotina (Pond Pine): This pine species grows to 50 feet or so. Like most pines it requires lots of sun, but it will grow in much wetter soils than most other pines.

Pinus strobus (Eastern White Pine): This species is not common in Delaware, as it prefers cooler climates, but it is found in some upland forests. It is fast-growing and reaches 80 feet or more. Unlike most other pines, it is a handsome species that can grow in fairly moist soils, and it is widely planted as an ornamental.

Pinus taeda (Loblolly Pine): This is a fast-growing species that reaches 90 feet or so. Like most other pines, it likes sun and can grow in poor soils, but it is rarely planted.

Pinus virginiana (Virginia Pine): This is a fairly slow-growing pine that reaches 40 feet or so. As is typical of pines, it likes lots of sun and can grow in poor soils, but it is rarely planted.


Cheers,

Michael

[LadyShea]

I'll donate as well. I have his full name from last year's Secret Santa.

One thing: I'd like to shop around a little for a memorial option that keeps his name on or around the tree instead of in the park office for a year. Definitely keep it in Delaware, but maybe there's another park or a tree-planting program we could investigate?


The "no plaque" thing is a policy of all Delaware state parks, to keep from marring the natural beauty of the area.

I am a good Googler, and I can't find any memorial tree program, statewide or national that includes a plaque near the tree.

That being the case, maybe we can be less specific.

We can make donations in his name to The National Arbor Day foundation. For every 10.00 donated they plant 10 trees in a fire, disease, or insect ravaged area. A certificate is sent to the family stating how many trees were planted and where. Quite a large impact for the money, IMO, and something quiet bear, I believe would have appreciated.

Over the course of 50 years, a single tree can generate $31,250 of oxygen, provide $62,000 worth of air pollution control, recycle $37,500 worth of water, and control $31,500 worth of soil erosion. http://www.arborday.org/join/tictim/index.cfm

Just another option.

[livius drusus]

Wow, that's a fantastic program. It's not Delaware-specific, but it's really making a difference.

[LadyShea]

It's not Delaware specific that's the only drawback. But, for 125.00 we could plant a single tree in a Delaware state park or 125 trees where they are desperately needed.

[Shelli]

It's not Delaware specific that's the only drawback. But, for 125.00 we could plant a single tree in a Delaware state park or 125 trees where they are desperately needed.I would think that David would want the latter. :nod:

[Petra]

I'm afraid I'm unable to help out - my budget is just too tight. Sorry. :(

I think it's a beautiful idea, though; and so fitting to who quiet bear was, and the nature he loved so much. :)

[Sock Puppet]

I'm in, whichever way is decided. Maybe we can do both: the multiple-tree program LS mentioned, and a single tree in qb's name. The former would probably be more what Dave wanted, and the latter would be more for our own catharsis. IMO, both are valid and worthwhile.

[Shelli]

ooooh.. I like that idea, :sockpuppet:! :thumbup:

[Zehava]

Count me in as well.

[Watser?]

I'm in, whichever way is decided. Maybe we can do both: the multiple-tree program LS mentioned, and a single tree in qb's name. The former would probably be more what Dave wanted, and the latter would be more for our own catharsis. IMO, both are valid and worthwhile.

I bow to your wisdom oh Solomon.

[livius drusus]

I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of doing both, just because it seems like it diffuses our limited funds, especially since the one memorial tree is so expensive.

As far as Paypal issues are concerned, we could set this up via the forum donation system. You can use a credit card to donate to FF, making sure to note that it's for the qb memorial. Then when it comes time to pay for the tree/s, we'll just use the funds in the FF account.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

That would be good. Paypal and I are mortal enemies.

[ceptimus]

I'm in.

[Shelli]

So, what are we doing? :eager:

[Crumb]

It seems to be like the multiple trees would be the better way to go.

[Plant Woman]

I've been so busy, I didn't know. Can someone point me to the thread about quiet bear? Oh and I would like to donate too.

[livius drusus]

Here's the thread, PW: Some sad news (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13544)

[Plant Woman]

Thank you liv.

[Plant Woman]

I like the idea of a large and majestic native oak in the state park. I think qb wouldn't mind if his name was up for only a year. But the thought of a long lived tree with birds sitting on the bear's limbs, squirrels scampering up his trunk, just sounds like something qb would smile about. A majestic tree for a quiet bear. Although I can go along with the multiple trees as well. Have the donations begun?

[Shelli]

Not that I know of, PW.

[livius drusus]

The memorial fund has received its first contribution. :)

[Deadlokd]

I'm in. I hope Quiet Bear doesn't mind Australian dollars. It isn't much, but I don't think he'll mind.

[curses]

Sorry I've been MIA for two days, stupid temp job with no computers and long hours..

I like the multiple trees idea, too! I do agree that doing both would be spreading it a bit thin. My whole idea for the plaque thing was to have something his family could go and see if they wished, btw (I just realized I never explained why I liked it) We could always make our own certificate if it came down to it.

Thanks for letting us use the FF system for donations, liv. I wasn't quite sure how to handle that :)

Now to wait on my first paycheck...

[Shelli]

The memorial fund has received its first contribution. :)Cool. Then that's what I'll do. I'll contribute this weekend and whatever we end up deciding to do fine by me. :yup:

[Crumb]

Well I can't spell, but I think you can figure out where that money is supposed to go.

[livius drusus]

:nod: :huggle:

[Crumb]

:pleased:

[livius drusus]

I emailed Sis to let her know about this thread, and although she's touched, she thinks Dave would be uneasy with the idea of us raising money, or dedicating a single tree to him.

Given the family's preferences, I propose we go ahead with the arbor day plantings for our own catharsis and as an inherently good deed. We have already collected $225, so we can make a really nice impact as a community.

[LadyShea]

I like that idea, liv

[Watser?]

Yeah, I had a feeling qb would have preferred a more general tree-planting initiative anyway.

[Shelli]

Given the family's preferences, I propose we go ahead with the arbor day plantings for our own catharsis and as an inherently good deed. We have already collected $225, so we can make a really nice impact as a community.Sounds great, liv. Thanks for taking the initiative. :glomp2:

[Kyuss Apollo]

I would like to contribute as well. Count me in. Lots of great ideas, too.

[Stormlight]

Given the family's preferences, I propose we go ahead with the arbor day plantings for our own catharsis and as an inherently good deed. We have already collected $225, so we can make a really nice impact as a community.Sounds great, liv. Thanks for taking the initiative. :glomp2:

:yeahthat:

[Kyuss Apollo]

FYI--when I heard about Dave's passing, I let the folks over at BeatKing Forum know too, as he was a member in good standing there as well. There is a thread over there (http://www.beatking.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29770&st=0) that people here might want to read--Dave had a great knack for making friends and touching lives wherever he went.

[cheapprick]

FYI--when I heard about Dave's passing, I let the folks over at BeatKing Forum know too, as he was a member in good standing there as well.

If you lads and lasses have the details figured our site is going to give what we can (apart from what individual members might give).

Was there a consensus and who do we sent it to?

[Plant Woman]

Hi cheapprick. I noticed someone had a photo to share on the thread Kyuss shared with us and since I am not a member I couldn't download it. Is it possible to post it here so we can enjoy it too?

[Shelli]

FYI--when I heard about Dave's passing, I let the folks over at BeatKing Forum know too, as he was a member in good standing there as well.

If you lads and lasses have the details figured our site is going to give what we can (apart from what individual members might give).

Was there a consensus and who do we sent it to?As far as I know, we've decided to go with the Arbor Day plantings. Donations are being sent to liv via the one time donation option (which includes a field in which you can specify what your donation is for) at the bottom of each :ff: screen. :cool:

[ceptimus]

Hi cheapprick. I noticed someone had a photo to share on the thread Kyuss shared with us and since I am not a member I couldn't download it. Is it possible to post it here so we can enjoy it too?I don't know if it's the same photo, but here's a pic that quiet bear posted of himself in a thread in Lifestyle - he said it was taken about the third week of June this year.

[Watser?]

They were talking about a different pic, they mentioned qb was the one in the hat.

[livius drusus]

FYI--when I heard about Dave's passing, I let the folks over at BeatKing Forum know too, as he was a member in good standing there as well.

If you lads and lasses have the details figured our site is going to give what we can (apart from what individual members might give).

Was there a consensus and who do we sent it to?

Hello cheapprick, and welcome to FF. :)

At the family's request, we are not planting the trees as a memorial. We really appreciate y'all wanting to pay your respects, but it's very important to me that y'all know that we are going with a more generalized Arbor Day donation, not a memorial.

The family felt very uncomfortable with the idea and thought quiet bear would much rather we do one-on-one charity in his memory instead of seeking to memorialize him specifically.

Kyuss, would you mind making this explicit in the thread on the other forum? I'd seriously hate to be luring folks into an arbor day donation when they're expecting a memorial.

[Kyuss Apollo]

I had crosslinked the "memorial" threads on both forums, so everyone at BeatKing could follow how and why FF came up with the tree planting instead of an outright memorial, and so that the folks here at FF could see how much Dave had meant to BK'ers and to check out his contribution to the BeatKing forums if they so desired. I quoted liv's post here (http://www.beatking.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29770&st=23#) to make sure that Michelle's (and Dave's) wishes were clearly conveyed over there. I am not sure everyone is reading all of both threads, hence the potential and/or actual confusion over what we're all doing.

I don't think cheapprick or anyone over at BeatKing would think they were getting ripped off for contributing to an anonymous arbor day tree planting instead of tree with a plaque on it...I think we all just want to honor the memory of Dave in the best way we can for all concerned and especially in keeping his wishes first and foremost.

And here is the "mugshot" Dave posted over at BeatKing, pw. This is how I want to remember him--looks like he is having a blast at this powwow :yup:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1409/1054053533_38b6e5074f.jpg?v=0

[godfry n. glad]

Whey kewl, Kyuss.

THX.

[viscousmemories]

I know nobody loves a skeptic, but has anyone found any evidence of a death by someone named Dave in Bear, Delaware beyond the post by "Sis"? I've searched pretty hard and haven't found anything. I'm naturally mortified at the prospect of hurting any loved ones feelings at such a time, but given my experiences online it's unfortunately not hard for me to believe that someone might choose to move on by way of staging their own death. After all, who isn't curious what people would say about us after our untimely demise? I wouldn't say anything but it would bother me to see money being raised here (even for an otherwise good cause) under fraudulent circumstances.

[godfry n. glad]

Me? I don't care. Anything which gets more trees planted is to the good.

[viscousmemories]

That's a fair point and I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from donating to that cause.

[Kyuss Apollo]

True, but he stopped logging in to BeatKing right at the same time, and no message from Sis there. If this was all about trolling for a reaction like Tom Sawyer at his own funeral, I think that there would have been a message there too--and if the newspapers where qb lived are like the local rags here, you have to pay a small fortune to get an obit. (or birth/engagement/marriage announcement or even the tiniest ad trying to sell a good used anything) published nowadays. I'd rather my family spent the money on a good caterer for the lunch after they toss me in the ground than have it go to some fatcat out-of-town editorial board who has done nothing but ruin what used to be a pretty good newspaper.

Yeah. Fuck those editors down in Texas.

[godfry n. glad]

Yeah. Fuck those editors down in Texas.

If you don't mind, I'll pass. Besides, editors do it with a red pen.

I rather got the impression that qb didn't give much truck to the local birdcage liners. I doubt if his fambly would, either.

You could have liv ask Sis for a copy of the death certificate. That would be tacky.

[inland wave]

I have to agree with Kyuss here. Local news papers want your money and it would not uncommon for them to charge a good three or four hundred dollars for an obit. After all, your grieving and want everyone to know about your loved one, right? An example would be I was looking into placing an ad in the local paper...twently one words mind you and three day run, nothing spectacular, seventy-five dollars...no kidding.

[viscousmemories]

I know that's true for full-fledged obits, but everywhere I've lived has published generic "death notices" for every fatality in the community.

[Petra]

I don't think quiet bear was the kind of person to do such a thing. And unless you know his full name as it appears on his birth certificate, you'll have no way of finding out. Dave may have been his middle name, for example.

I think you have to be very careful about such speculations, and not jump to cynicism so quickly. Without hard evidence to the contrary, we have to take his sister's notification of his sad and untimely death to us as truth.

[viscousmemories]

I know the full name we used for the Secret Santa, and as far as I can tell there have been no reported deaths of anyone by that name. I'm sorry but I don't feel any moral obligation to take the word of an anonymous forum poster for truth, particularly because it's such a serious issue. It's caution, not cynicism.

[Pinecone]

Caution is ok with me. It would be nice if he was still kickin around in the woods after all.

[Petra]

Well, I'd certainly be happy to hear that he is still alive afterall - although I'd be very angry with him for pulling such a stunt, naturally.

If it is a stunt, then I hope he gets the help he needs, because faking death like this isn't normal.


Crikey, now I don't quite know what to think.

[Angakuk]

Call me naive, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to take Sis' post at face value. Nothing that quiet bear ever posted or wrote in chat suggests that he would ever be a party to a hoax of this nature. If it were a hoax, perpetrated by some third party, I have no doubt that he would have spoken up and nipped it in the bud. In the extremely unlikely event that it is a hoax and that he is party to it, then the quiet bear that I had come to know and respect is, indeed dead, whether or not some guy named Dave, in Delaware, is still alive.

[Petra]

A timeline (sort of):

Sis posts late on Monday night (Delaware time) that quiet bear had been killed walking in the woods. It appears as though he was alone. He was buried on the previous day, which was Sunday 29th.

qb's last post was on Tuesday 24th at 10.06pm (Delaware time), and his last activity was on Wednesday 25th at 7.02am.

When was it discovered that he was missing? Who found him, and when? His sister says he died on Friday, which would have been 27th. Did he die on Friday? Or had he been lying in the woods for 2 days? Was there an autopsy to identify cause of death? How long does that usually take, and is it usual for someone who died on a Friday to be buried on Sunday?

The details are so very vague.... :scratch:


I just don't know what to believe.

[Stormlight]

This is getting really morbid now. :(
I'm with Angakuk on this one.

[Kyuss Apollo]

:yeahthat:

[Petra]

Sure, I hear ya. And if more solid information comes to light, I will openly apologise and retract my own morbid cynicism.

But over the course of the day, I've gone from thinking that vm's skepticism was totally out of line, to finding myself asking questions and not finding answers that completely fit.

But, as Ang said, if it is a hoax, then the character we know as quiet bear really is dead, even if some guy called Dave is (and I hope he is) still running around fully alive somewhere.

[Watser?]

I am with Angakuk here too: quiet bear was not the type to do this, I don't seriously consider it a possibility.

[Shelli]

:yeahthat:

[viscousmemories]

Well I don't feel the need to persuade anyone to my point of view, but in my own defense it wouldn't be the first time an active, long-time member of an online community I'm part of turned out to have a dramatically different persona in real life than the one they shared online. So given what little information I have I choose to remain skeptical on this one.

[LadyShea]

I have to actually go with vm on this one. The person we knew as quiet bear may very well have been a created persona. Personal experience tells me it aint that far fetched

[viscousmemories]

Not to mention the possibility of some kind of psychotic break. Stranger things have happened.

[Shelli]

Regardless whether it's true or not, I'm still all for my donation going toward the Arbor Day tree plantings. :cheeseforest:

[livius drusus]

That's a healthy approach, Shelli.

For the record, email evidence suggests that the poster known as "Sis" is not a reliable source of information. We may never know the whole story, but our official position as holders of this fund is that we are focusing on the cause alone.

We have raised an astonishing $465 up to this point, enough to plant 460 (10 trees per every 10 dollars) trees in areas that desperately need them. That is a great thing no matter what.

[Shelli]

Wow! That is awesome, liv! :w00t:

:tree:
:tree::tree:
:tree::tree::tree:
:tree::tree::tree::tree:
:tree::tree::tree::tree::tree:
:tree::tree::tree::tree:
:tree::tree::tree:
:tree::tree:
:tree:

[LadyShea]

Awesome impact on our environment!

[Shelli]

:hellyes:

[ChuckF]

Regardless of circumstance, I'm all about planting a shitload of trees. Or rather, paying someone else to plant them. I'm not so big on the physical labor.

[Shelli]

heh

[Pinecone]

:heart::tree::tree::tree::heart:

[wildernesse]

I know that's true for full-fledged obits, but everywhere I've lived has published generic "death notices" for every fatality in the community.

Just a note that in smaller communities this is not the case--at least online. A family member who died recently and very unexpectedly did not have any online newspaper notice whatsoever. Perhaps a real paper death notice was listed where he died, which was not locally, but it does not appear in any of the papers online whether it be the AJC or the local weeklies.

[Plant Woman]

I have to believe that qb was who he personified. The gifts he packed as my Secret Santa spoke a lot about him too. These were used items that I wouldn't think he would even know about had he not been who he said he was. You might try verifying the accident by calling his local police, explaining what has happened and that we have money we want to donate in his name but can't verify his death. They might be able to help at least verify there was an accident.

[freemonkey]

I second PW's suggestion. Would it be a matter of public record whether or not someone has died? Or what about local funeral homes?

[Dingfod]

I second PW's suggestion. Would it be a matter of public record whether or not someone has died? Or what about local funeral homes?I've googled and googled and come up dry. I have actually spent several hours in pursuit of information such as would be provided in the event of someone's tragic accidental death, but have found nothing. I am, of course, somewhat hampered by not knowing quiet bear's real name.

[curses]

Regardless of circumstance, I'm all about planting a shitload of trees. Or rather, paying someone else to plant them. I'm not so big on the physical labor.This. I'm still waiting for my lame staffing agency to pay me, I should have had the check on Tuesday. :plzhold:

[viscousmemories]

We searched for any accidents, deaths or obits using what we believe to be his full real name, but no luck.

We do however have new information that we'd like to share.

In order to register here, 'Sis' used an old email address that belonged to quiet bear. An email address so unique that there are only 2 returns on Google, both of them posts on a music forum made by a person with over 6k posts named Dave, from Newark, DE, who drifted away from that forum a couple years ago. Quiet Bear once mentioned that he had previously racked up over 6k posts on a music forum, and we believe that's the one.

When liv emailed 'Sis' about the memorial, 'she' made a point of explaining away the fact that the email ID was set to qb's first name and surname initial by claiming to have just created the email in his name, and that he'd be 'horrified' if he knew.

That appears to be untrue, and that's why liv said 'Sis' is not a reliable source.

More damning is that a new user just appeared on that old music forum with the same avatar and birthday, and although he hasn't said as much so far the regulars seem to believe it's their long lost friend. That member just posted there on Tuesday.

In light of this (and some other information that we aren't prepared to share) we have concluded that the death of quiet bear appears to be a fraud, and although we think the Arbor Day fund is an excellent charity we will gladly reimburse anyone who donated money under what appear to be false pretenses.

[livius drusus]

curses, I'd like to change the title of this thread, maybe even add a note to the OP referring to a general Arbor Day collection. Would that be okay with you?

[godfry n. glad]

Thanks, vm, for the update.

Go ahead and plant trees with mine. More trees for more shade for more freethinkers to relax and think under. More trees converting more carbon dioxide into more oxygen. More homes and food sources for more wildlife. May they never be used for lynching.

[curses]

curses, I'd like to change the title of this thread, maybe even add a note to the OP referring to a general Arbor Day collection. Would that be okay with you?

Please go ahead. I'm still planning on donating anyways. :)

Edit: Can you check the IP addresses of the new users here? I'm guessing if this is indeed true, he won't be able to stay away from here, either.

[viscousmemories]

Thanks, vm, for the update.
You're welcome, godfry.

The situation sucks but I'm sad to say it doesn't shock me.

[The Lone Ranger]

I say plant trees with the funds. More trees is definitely a good thing.





It's been said that everyone would like the chance to attend his or her own funeral. Once you've been at a website long-enough to have built up a "presence," you have the means to do just that, in a sense. I suppose it must be a temptation for some.

Cheers,

Michael

[Shelli]

If this is what it indeed appears to be.. it's just beyond me.. and I'm going to leave it there.

What I said before still stands, please plant away with my donation and let something awesome come of this weirdness. :tree:

[Shelli]

This situation has inspired me to make sure that there's some way of having someone prove that I'm really dead should I become road kill. :xwalk:

I hope I didn't just jinx myself. :crossed: :motor: :crossed:

[curses]

I feel kinda hurt by this, but I've seen it happen on other boards. I just never thought it would happen here.

[Shelli]

I feel kinda hurt by this, but I've seen it happen on other boards. I just never thought it would happen here.I've never seen this before and wouldn't have ever thought that qb would do this. It hurts the level of trust for all for someone to pull something like this, and to me, that what's sucks the most about this whole thing.

At the same time, as it seems that he hasn't died, I'm very glad that he's not dead; it's a huge weight off of my shoulders. However, I hope that he has the presence of mind, if not now then at some point in his life, to be deeply ashamed of himself for pulling this cruel stunt and learns to treat others better than this. :ffno:

[curses]

It's common in places like LiveJournal or MySpace, generally it's someone who dished out the shit and couldn't stand the heat, sometimes people do it to see what sort of reaction it gets. Teh internets are a good place for those of us with questionable social skills to gather, but some people like to use it to reinvent themselves. When they get tired of that persona, they kill it off and reinvent.

It's a dramawhore practice fer sure.

[Shelli]

It's a dramawhore practice fer sure.It's a weird practice fer sure too. :kookoo:

[curses]

Some people just get off on the impact stuff like this makes on online communities, I guess. I can't even begin to explain what happened here as I guess I didn't know qb as well as I thought I did.

[Ymir's blood]

Drama for sure. He could have just walked away.

[Shelli]

Some people just get off on...Maybe they should just buy more sex toys instead then. That way they can get off without hurting anyone in the process. :wank:

[curses]

:lol: Shelli. too true. I really wish I knew what's really going on behind it, I hate speculating like this.

Yb, some people thrive on drama :( Some of the temp jobs I've worked in the past were full of drama whores. I often wondered what they were like on the internet.

[Ymir's blood]

I sometimes wonder what the internet drama queens are like in real life. Not for very long though, better things to wonder about - like giant zombie woodpeckers with an unholy lust for human brains.

[Shelli]

mmmmm... brains...
:eatbrains:

[Kyuss Apollo]

Thanks, vm, for the update.

Go ahead and plant trees with mine. More trees for more shade for more freethinkers to relax and think under. More trees converting more carbon dioxide into more oxygen. More homes and food sources for more wildlife. May they never be used for lynching.

Plus they're tax deductible contributions. I'm down with anything that makes my income tax refund all that much fatter.

I'll make sure all our friends over at BeatKing are made aware of this latest turn in the strange sad saga of the "death" of quiet bear. :hm:

So now, where are we going to plant the trees, now that we aren't confined to planting them in Delaware?

[Angakuk]

It's been said that everyone would like the chance to attend his or her own funeral.

For the record: I have every intention of attending my own funeral. Wouldn't be much of a party without the guest of honor.

Three men, recently deceased, arrived at the Pearly Gates. St. Peter, just to pass the time, asked each of them what they hoped people would be saying about them at their funeral.

1st Man: I hope people will say that I was good man, a loving husband and father and a credit to my profession.

2nd Man: I hope people will say that I was fun guy, full of the spirit of life and that I will be sorely missed.

3rd Man: I hope someone will say, "Look, he's moving"!

[curses]

:roflcopt:

I plan on leaving enough money so that someone can hire out a bar and throw a party in my honor. No crying allowed.

[LadyShea]

The arbor day fund plants trees where they are needed; fire, disease or insect ravaged areas. I believe we will get a certificate saying how many trees were planted and where.

[Plant Woman]

I think I would like half of my donation to go for the trees and the other half to go to ff to help continue a community of Freethinkers.

I am really bummed. Its like the presents I cherished are now tarnished. I am going to have to work through this one, and see if I can look at them again in a better light, that perhaps he is striving to be the person that he stood for, but hasn't quite figured out how to live it. Since I'm far from perfect and not always live up to my own expectations I should be forgiving. I hope that for whatever reason he did this, he finds some healing for it.

Also I think we should donate the tree money in honor of this forum or atheists or freethinkers everywhere.

[ChuckF]

Well that's weird. qb never seemed the drama type. If he needs some kind of help I hope he gets it.

ETA: I like PW's idea to devote a fraction of my paltry donation to FF, 'cause I haven't put into the plate recently. Unless that would make the accounting all complicated. Up to you guys, vm and liv.

[LadyShea]

I think I would like half of my donation to go for the trees and the other half to go to ff to help continue a community of Freethinkers.

I am really bummed. Its like the presents I cherished are now tarnished. I am going to have to work through this one, and see if I can look at them again in a better light, that perhaps he is striving to be the person that he stood for, but hasn't quite figured out how to live it. Since I'm far from perfect and not always live up to my own expectations I should be forgiving. I hope that for whatever reason he did this, he finds some healing for it.

Also I think we should donate the tree money in honor of this forum or atheists or freethinkers everywhere.

The gifts were perfect for you. I don't think that kind of thoughtfulness can be faked. I think, as you supposed, he presented the person he wanted to be, and was striving to be, in his time here. Still him only magnified.

I suppose some people fall apart when the chasm between who they are and who they want to be gets wider than they are capable of bridging.

[Crumb]

Wow this is so odd. I am really stunned by all this. I thought you were pushing things when you suggested this vm. Now it seems there is obviously some fishy business involved.

I will still miss quiet bear, and I still donate my money in his honor.

:goodbye: quiet bear, wherever and whoever you may be.

[viscousmemories]

No worries, Crumb. You clearly weren't the only person who thought I was pushing things. Truth be told I didn't believe the story when it originally aired*, but I decided to leave well enough alone since I was on vacation and it seemed like (at worst) a tasteless hoax. Besides, my default position is skepticism and I know that upsets people. It was only when the money started rolling in to our account that I felt an ethical imperative to voice my suspicions, and I did so knowing that I could only share limited information and might get negative reactions.

*I mean c'mon. He fell down, hit his head and died? What're the odds?

[freemonkey]

Well that's weird. qb never seemed the drama type. If he needs some kind of help I hope he gets it.

From what I saw, I never would have thought qb to be a drama whore. (Granted, I haven't been around much lately, but still... ) Did he cause trouble here lately? Why pull something like this? If its true that its a hoax, I guess I don't get it. :dunno:

[Plant Woman]

The gifts were perfect for you. I don't think that kind of thoughtfulness can be faked. I think, as you supposed, he presented the person he wanted to be, and was striving to be, in his time here. Still him only magnified.

I suppose some people fall apart when the chasm between who they are and who they want to be gets wider than they are capable of bridging.

That thoughtfulness is why I was having a hard time believing he would do something like fake his death -- a very thoughtless act.

Thanks, that helps me put things into better perspective.

[Stormlight]

Honestly, I was pretty appalled when i read vm's post yesterday. I thought it was in very bad taste. Looks like I was naive. I would never have thought someone would do something like this, and certainly not qb. :(

Oh well, feel free to use my donation to plant some trees.

[Watser?]

I was not so much appalled but shocked when I read vm's post, and did not believe it at first. But if you think it through there was some stuff in the OP by Sis that was pretty hard to swallow, the accident itself, the story about him rescuing her out of a crackhouse (I think I saw that on Law and Order once...).

Still I am as weirded out as the next person about qb coming out as a drama whore.

[Stormlight]

Well, let's not jump to conclusions. Innocent until proven guilty and all that ...

[Shelli]

When I'm dead, y'all know 'cause it'll suddenly seem verrrrry quiet. :shiftier:

:giggle:

[LadyShea]

I think enough people know me personally, and know my husband, and where we live and our phone numbers etc. that I couldn't pull something like this off. If I die, a few will get calls from hubby, I'm sure, assuming he goes through my phone.

It's sad, though, that some people will go so far to be someone or something else online, or go out of their way to hide their real selves and situations. How painful, or lonely, must their lives be to find it preferable to perpetuate extensive lies? It's one thing to put your best foot forward so to speak, or even to remain intensely private and not reveal everything...but to actively deceive is a different ball of wax.

ETA: I am stoked at the response though. If we can do this as a group...what else can we do to make a positive impact on the world? Gonna start a thread about it.

[Shelli]

:climb::tree::tree::tree::tree::treehous:

[viscousmemories]

It's telling that y'all put more stock in the words of an anonymous one-time poster than mine. If you think I would make such comments lightly or without considerable warrant, you don't know anything about me.

[Shelli]

Well, it's a pretty hard thing to believe and also, keep in mind that some people have "known" you and qb for the same amount of time, so really, the two of you are equally anonymous. That being said, it's my thought that it's easier to believe that someone would jump to unwarranted conclusions than it is to believe that someone would go to this length to fake their death. Ya know? :hug:

[Stormlight]

Agreed. The whole idea is so ridiculous to me that I still have problems taking this seriously. It's nothing to do with me believing some random stranger more than you, vm.

[LadyShea]

It's telling that y'all put more stock in the words of an anonymous one-time poster than mine. If you think I would make such comments lightly or without considerable warrant, you don't know anything about me.

I think you're being a bit unfair and taking it personally without it being meant so.

For someone to immediately view something like this with suspicion, they either need to have experienced a similar deception, picked up on some clues along the way that the person's character allowed for such a thing , or be more skeptical, cynical, or pessimistic in general than average.

Without quiet bear raising any suspicions prior, and without any motivational reference point with which to empathize (I mean if you can't imagine a few answers to the question "why would someone do that?"), and without seeing all the evidence you have apparently seen, most wouldn't see any reason not to take Sis's announcement at face value.

Also Shelli's point here is pertinent
keep in mind that some people have "known" you and qb for the same amount of time, so really, the two of you are equally anonymous
Not everyone here knows you well, or has met you, or has any reason to accept your word over quiet bear's "sister".

[Watser?]

I have to agree vm, it is not a personal affront to you that we find this hard to believe. It is pretty hard to believe anyone, and especially qb as we knew him, would go to these lengths.
I am glad you are keeping your skeptical eye open though :manhug:

[freemonkey]

It's telling that y'all put more stock in the words of an anonymous one-time poster than mine. If you think I would make such comments lightly or without considerable warrant, you don't know anything about me.

Its not like that, vm. Its just that I'm flabbergasted, I guess.

[Plant Woman]

In my case it wasn't about disbelieving you, vm, it was about disbelieving someone would even be that thoughtless. It's hard to wrap the brain around such unkindness, when you have been led to believe someone is a kind and gentle soul.

[viscousmemories]

That's cool, peeps. Understood. I reckon I was equally unsettled the first time something like this happened.

[Shelli]

:hugs:

[beyelzu]

It's telling that y'all put more stock in the words of an anonymous one-time poster than mine. If you think I would make such comments lightly or without considerable warrant, you don't know anything about me.

wow, i actually believed you myself, when i read it.

but i can be cynical and paranoid myself.

[SharonDee]

It's telling that y'all put more stock in the words of an anonymous one-time poster than mine. If you think I would make such comments lightly or without considerable warrant, you don't know anything about me.Unfair, vm. Had you voiced your skepticism with evidence--as opposed to the gut feeling you appeared to be going by--of course we would have believed you. But no, you said, "... has anyone found any evidence of a death by someone named Dave in Bear, Delaware beyond the post by 'Sis'? I've searched pretty hard and haven't found anything."

At that point, it was pretty obvious you didn't know any more than we did. So why should your suspicions be granted more credence than the death notice? "She" had nothing to offer as evidence; neither did you.

_____
Unless you're talking about your subsequent posts to support your suspicions ... in which case, never mind.

[viscousmemories]

I'm sure it appeared that I didn't know any more than anyone else, but it wouldn't take much benefit of the doubt for y'all to conclude that I must have good reasons that I wasn't expressing. I'd like to think that'd be at least as believable as the possibility that I would -- on a whim -- do something so unbelievably callous as to challenge the word of a woman allegedly mourning her brother's death with no good reason to believe it.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

More to the point: when is Arbor Day? :scratch:

[SharonDee]

I'm sure it appeared that I didn't know any more than anyone else, but it wouldn't take much benefit of the doubt for y'all to conclude that I must have good reasons that I wasn't expressing.Really? We're supposed to intuit from what you're telling us what you're not telling us? Hey, nobody ever gave me my Swami card; I must have been absent when they were handed out.

I'd like to think that'd be at least as believable as the possibility that I would -- on a whim -- do something so unbelievably callous as to challenge the word of a woman allegedly mourning her brother's death with no good reason to believe it.I never believed for a moment you did it on a whim. But it's possible to be completely wrong, no matter how sincerely you didn't want to voice your doubts. Surely you can grant that much, instead of simply deciding we--a bunch of fellow skeptics, I might add--would let you down for daring to refuse to take your word for it immediately.

[viscousmemories]

No, I didn't expect anyone to intuit anything. I expected (obviously wrongly) to get more benefit of the doubt from people who have been reading my posts for nearly five years than y'all would give an anonymous stranger with one post.

And I'm not complaining that nobody took my word for it immediately. On the contrary, my beef is with the fact that so many of you took the word of a one-post stranger immediately and wrote off my delicately worded skepticism as thoughtless nastiness. It's just nice to know I've built up so much credit here.

[Shelli]

Thanks for the big pile of :shit: qb.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Thanks for the big pile of :shit: qb.

:nod:

:deepsigh:

[SharonDee]

In my case, I never attributed it to nastiness of any kind. I knew you wouldn't say it if you didn't believe your reasoning sound.

But your posts were on an equal footing. This anonymous person claimed to know something. (No evidence offered.) You were skeptical only. (No evidence offered that you knew differently.)

You're attempting to equate this to two cases of a thing allegedly known, asking us to choose who's telling the truth. When in reality, we were all trying to figure out what was true and what wasn't. The credibility of the messengers never entered into it at the time.

[SharonDee]

Thanks for the big pile of :shit: qb.My fault, entirely. I picked a heckuva time and topic to find my voice.

I don't wish to take this thread further off topic. I apologize for my own fault in this.

[viscousmemories]

You're right, Sharon. On reflection I knew my initial comment would be approached with skepticism precisely because I didn't allude to any evidence (which btw was a deliberate attempt to preserve various individual's privacy at the time). I really didn't want to say anything at all, I just felt strongly that I had a moral obligation to do so. Ugh. Anyway, sorry for being sensitive about this. The whole thing just really pisses me off.

[SharonDee]

The whole thing just really pisses me off.And on this, we can agree. I'm sorry for taking my ire out on you.

[viscousmemories]

:hug:

[Shelli]

:grouphug:

[godfry n. glad]

It's telling that y'all put more stock in the words of an anonymous one-time poster than mine. If you think I would make such comments lightly or without considerable warrant, you don't know anything about me.

Actually, when you aired your concerns, I thought it quite appropriate. My first reaction was to think that something like that was waaaay out of character for the poster I knew as qb, but I've seen enough strange stuff online to know that it was well within the realm of possibility, and well worth looking into more carefully. I'm glad that someone did more digging into the situation than that of which I'm capable.

Here's to ents!

[Pinecone]

It must have been quite a balancing act VM, protecting our contributions whilst protecting the information you recieve by being admin. Our privacy is in your hands no matter what you think of the poster to include 'Sis'.
To post what you concidered could have been taken as an extremely rude and callous view was courageous.
You were between a rock and a hard place ... you chose to hoist yourself on your own petard to protect us either way. Your sacrifice has NOT gone unnoticed or unappreciated!
Thank you!

[Uthgar the Brazen]

When are we getting pics of VM's petard, btw? :imwait:

[viscousmemories]

Sorry Uthgar, I think I've offended enough people this week.

Thanks godfry and Pinecone. :vibes:

[Ensign Steve]

I think enough people know me personally, and know my husband, and where we live and our phone numbers etc. that I couldn't pull something like this off. If I die, a few will get calls from hubby, I'm sure, assuming he goes through my phone.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat, and this incident prompted me to even double-check that, but I'm confident that if anything happened to me, my mom and hub both know how to get in touch with y'all and keep you up to speed.

When I was younger, a dear friend and former roommate of mine was struck by a car and in a coma for 3 weeks. Her family did not know how to get in touch with me or many of her other friends (this was before cell phones and caller ID) and my mom and I took that opportunity to just at least advise each other where our address books lived. It's probably a good idea for all of us who consider this community to be among their friends and family to include forum information in your emergency info. I'm just sayin'.

[Shelli]

When are we getting pics of VM's petard, btw? :imwait::nojustno:

Thanks, vm and liv, for once again taking the time. :smile:

[wildernesse]

When is the deadline for the Arbor Day Drive?

[Chris Porter]

snip

*I mean c'mon. He fell down, hit his head and died? What're the odds?

Really quite good. Near happened to my father, only he got off with "just" traumatic brain injury. And a week in a coma, etc.

Seizures can make you fall, fall without your body automatically trying to cushion the fall. Seizures are generally not predictable. So I didn't find that part of the story really remarkable.

[freemonkey]

I think people probably die from head injuries in falls quite often. And if you fall while alone in the woods, it need not be a sudden death.

I was wondering about the neck brace and cane, though. Where'd that come from? What'd I miss?

[viscousmemories]

Actually that part was explained by some recent surgery he mentioned in the Member News thread.

[Stormlight]

Sorry Uthgar, I think I've offended enough people this week.

Well, you didn't. Actually, you opened my eyes. I don't like what I see, but still ... :it is obvious that my naivety in online matters is outrageous. :(

[Shelli]

Well, although it would seem that qb/David has not physically died, the qb/David I thought I knew has.

So, once again, just in a different sense... goodbye, :quiet::gbear:.

[Shelli]

Did somebody say :tree:? :excited:

[Stormlight]

Well, although it would seem that qb/David has not physically died, the qb/David I thought I knew has..

Indeed. :(

[Stormlight]

You know what the worst part is? I feel incredibly bad because I feel bad that I think that Dave is still around. :kickscan:

[Shelli]

:snuggles:

[Stormlight]

:deepsigh:

[Stormlight]

Anyway ... I still think we should go ahead and plant those trees.

[Shelli]

:tree: :hellyes: :tree:

[seebs]

I wanted to "buy" a tree in memorial of quiet bear

???

[livius drusus]

Have you read the whole thread, seebs?

As for a tree deadline, so far I've just been waiting for the peeps who are waiting for a paycheck. Shall we say Friday the 17th, then?

[JoeP]

Ugh. Anyway, sorry for being sensitive about this. The whole thing just really pisses me off.

It's completely understandable. You're still recovering from a family reunion.

[seebs]

Just catching up a bit. What a weird thing.

Someone on CF posted saying she/he was the poster's relative or friend (I forget which) and that the poster was dead. I am inclined to accept this at face value -- but one of the other posters spent a great deal of time insisting that it was all fraudulent and never really happened, in response to which the account said that the person who used to use it had committed suicide over online stalkers... Which, given the behavior of the real charmer in the thread, struck me as ominously plausible.

[Shelli]

Have there been anymore donations? What do we have at this time?

:tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree:

[livius drusus]

We're up to $495. :)

[curses]

still waiting on my paycheck that should have been deposited last Tuesday :sadcheer:

[Shelli]

We're up to $495. :):cheer:


:crossed: curses :crossed:

[Kyuss Apollo]

It's telling that y'all put more stock in the words of an anonymous one-time poster than mine. If you think I would make such comments lightly or without considerable warrant, you don't know anything about me.

I think you're being a bit unfair and taking it personally without it being meant so.

For someone to immediately view something like this with suspicion, they either need to have experienced a similar deception, picked up on some clues along the way that the person's character allowed for such a thing , or be more skeptical, cynical, or pessimistic in general than average.

Without quiet bear raising any suspicions prior, and without any motivational reference point with which to empathize (I mean if you can't imagine a few answers to the question "why would someone do that?"), and without seeing all the evidence you have apparently seen, most wouldn't see any reason not to take Sis's announcement at face value.

Also Shelli's point here is pertinent
keep in mind that some people have "known" you and qb for the same amount of time, so really, the two of you are equally anonymous
Not everyone here knows you well, or has met you, or has any reason to accept your word over quiet bear's "sister".

I admit I was at first more skeptical of your suspicions then the OP, more due to the persona qb had cultivated than anything else. My initial reaction was not meant to be as confrontational as I think it probably sounded--one of the things about the written word aspect of the internet is that the naked words are bereft of the humanity present in a face-to-face conversation, and my comments about editors in texas were aimed at the Belo Corp, which took over the local rag just before its quality took a serious nosedive...I realize now that this could have been seen as a veiled swipe at you vm, and I want you know that was the furthest thing from my meaning.

But the seeds of doubt were planted, and I recalled similar though not identical shenanigans at other forums I used to frequent. And once you guys had more evidence than the lack of a death notice/obit, I was on board. And I now in the position of having to explain this new load of crap to the other forum. liv was very helpful in giving me a little more to go on there, as some of the evidence that implicates our late friend as not being as deceased as recent claims suggest involves BeatKing. Props to liv, as per. :livius:

And I can fully empathize with you vm--my attempt to alert the BK forum has met with the same resistance and disbelief you encountered here, as few over there appear to believe me and want to keep their image of "bear" despite what I see as having presented them with incontrovertible evidence that this is a pathetic hoax. It sucks, because I have better things to do with my summer time than mediating this nonsense between here and there, though I have felt some level of duty and responsibility to keep them informed since I am the one that introduced qb to BeatKing in the first place.

I am sure this has sucked out alot more of your time than it has for me. I appreciate this and you have my deepest thanks for taking the time to put all the pieces together despite all the negativity we were (not without the aforesaid rightful skepticism at first on our part) blowing at you.

I suggest that some amount of the fund collected go to buy vm a gift certificate for dinner at Olive Garden or someplace nice, because without his initial skepticism and diligent detective work we would be still be taking all this qb bs at face value.

[ChuckF]

Can we use some of the fund to plant cilantro too?

[viscousmemories]

...and my comments about editors in texas were aimed at the Belo Corp, which took over the local rag just before its quality took a serious nosedive...I realize now that this could have been seen as a veiled swipe at you vm, and I want you know that was the furthest thing from my meaning.
The thought crossed my mind but I dismissed it immediately. :)

[livius drusus]

Can we use some of the fund to plant cilantro too?
Over my fake dead body.

[Shelli]

:rofl:

[Sock Puppet]

I suggest that some amount of the fund collected go to buy vm a gift certificate for dinner at Olive Garden or someplace nice, because without his initial skepticism and diligent detective work we would be still be taking all this qb bs at face value.I agree with the sentiment, but I've got a feeling he'll ne'er go for that. So let's raise the cash for that on the side and force it on him when he's not looking.

[Stormlight]

I suggest that some amount of the fund collected go to buy vm a gift certificate for dinner at Olive Garden or someplace nice, because without his initial skepticism and diligent detective work we would be still be taking all this qb bs at face value.I agree with the sentiment, but I've got a feeling he'll ne'er go for that. So let's raise the cash for that on the side and force it on him when he's not looking.

Or ... we could drag vm there kicking and screaming and then force-feed him. :chuckle:

[Ari]

If it was a hoax it just buries a bit of the fading respect I have in most people. I want to donate so that maybe a more intelligent/caring life can take over the planet.
Um, how do I do that again?

[livius drusus]

Scroll down to the bottom of the page, Ari, and click on this fellow: http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/images/buttons/paypal.gif. Make a note in the memo area that it's for the tree fund, fill in your credit card or paypal info and voila.

[viscousmemories]

If it was a hoax it just buries a bit of the fading respect I have in most people.
Why's that? Seems to me that most people in this scenario were pretty cool. Only one appears to be unhinged.

[Ari]

Poor guy working at the bottom of the page all day, probably slave labor.

Ok.
Pay pal needs a "gift" option (or maybe I missed it) so it doesn't look completely stupid saying "your order of nothing, will be shipped using _____ shipper to your address."


It was a general comment, I don't consider many of those on this forum as "most people."

[Plant Woman]

Can we use some of the fund to plant cilantro too?

Cilantro? I think basil would be more appropriate.

[Petra]

You guys are brilliant. You've taken something not so great, and turned it into something wonderful. Y'all remind me of Wangari Maathai (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3726084.stm), and I just loves y'all for that. :bow:

[livius drusus]

Ladies and gentlemen, the eagle has landed, and it has 530 Lodgepole and Douglasfir trees in Gallatin National Forest (http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/gallatin/) to pick from (after Paypal took its cut). :slide:

Thanks to all for donating. We will definitely make this a regular thing. :thankee:

[ChuckF]

:woohoo:

Go trees! Now I want to go visit them.

[LadyShea]

That is the coolest thing. We definitely need to find similar charities for future drives....so tangible and immediate

[Ari]

I'm n ur fourest palntin ur treeez!!1111?!!!
http://arborday.org/graphics/logo.gif

[Stormlight]

:cheer:

[curses]

Yay! Go us!:cheer:

I second Chuck's notion of wanting to go visit them..:ff: fieldtrip!!!!11

[Pinecone]

:trailer:

[Shelli]

:tree: :tree4: :cheer: :tree4: :tree:

[Crumb]

Very cool!

:tree4: :tree4: :snoopy: :tree4: :tree4:

[godfry n. glad]

That there is in Bozeman, Montana!

I'll go there!

That's purdy country. Out in the upland Yellowstone country.

EDIT: Bozeman is actually in the Gallatin River valley, and over Bozeman Pass to the east, leads to Livingstone, Montana, which is on the banks of the Yellowstone River. Big Sky, Montana, is actually in the Gallatin National Forest, which borders the northern boundaries of Yellowstone National Park.

Here (http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/gallatin/?page=maps) are some rough maps you can use to zero in on the locale on Google Earth.

[Kyuss Apollo]

Yay! Go us!:cheer:

I second Chuck's notion of wanting to go visit them..:ff: fieldtrip!!!!11

Sounds like a plan!