Question for Lady Cop

[noblesavage]

Have you ever busted a kid for marijuana?

BTY, I don't think it's very safe to have a gun and PMS!

[lady cop]

the only kid i have 'busted' for smoking dope is my own...i had to impress upon him (while in college) that when the drug dogs :retrieve: hit on our house when i had them over visiting our neighborhood, it was going to be rather embarrassing for me.( he hated having a cop for a mom, can you imagine the horror?) (actually, in truth, he is proud of me) i don't like to mess with juveniles unless i have to, the dopers that constitute most crime here are crack dealers. we do arrest for possession of 20 grams or less, a misdemeanor. no big deal. it's a common bust, right up there with drunk and disorderly. however...if large amounts are in evidence there is an "intent to sell" problem. juveniles...let me get back on topic here...we don't bother with them unless thay are adjudicated adults, which means serious felony charge. we take them to jail and get them in and out in 20 minutes. literally. booking has to cease operations until juvie is out of the place. juvenile justice comes to get them. but recently a judge ordered us to inspect juvie facility 3 times per our shift, because none of those people are real law enforcement. so we schlep over there every few hours to be sure nobody is getting abused. kids or staff, who have no clue. they hire anyone who will do it. it's not pretty. note...don't be concerned, i have never actually shot anyone while pms-ing. i might, however, spray them. :D

[noblesavage]

Well, one kid I know, Andrew (I've know this kid since he was like 14), went to the University of Missouri at the ripe age of 18. He got busted with about 1 OZ of marijuana and they gave him a Class A Felony because it was a "school zone". They told him he was going to get pounded in the ass for 15 years in the state pen. He calls me from jail crying. His bond was about $17,000. After I bonded him out of jail, I called a few friends and the charges were dropped. What if he were black or poor?

How do you feel about enforcing immoral laws?

[lady cop]

this will come as a shock...i have been in possession of many ounces of dope during my college years. i do not have any control over the laws i am sworn to enforce, but yes i think many of them are immoral, and need to be changed. i just cannot pick and choose what laws i enforce. can i cut a break? yes. on some things i give the benefit of the doubt, especially when they are not being a total jerk. i will say this...the school zone thing is serious and i would have taken it seriously. and i have absolutely no choice whatsoever on dope until citizens get the laws changed.... aside... as to crack cocaine, i give no quarter, this is the cause of 97% of all crime against you citizens today. violent crime....black or poor, another thread i think, or perhaps this will evolve.

[Brimshack]

A guy I went to college with (I won't call him a friend) lost his job as a Prosecutor in Vegas precisely because he wouldn't plea bargain juvenile cases of marijuana possession. Since that's a Felony in Nevada, he was not only tying up the courts on trivial matters, he was actively ruining lives. At least someone in Vegas has priorities, and the asshole is practicing somewhere else now, praise the IPU.

Given the role of lawyer connections in this completely unfair system, don't your questions implicate lawyers as much as cops. (Yes, I am responding as much to the other thread as this one.) Another guy I went to college with dodged a mega-sentence which he pretty well earned (got caught with a major shipment of hard drugs ...after a life time of breaking bones for a shylock, and for the fun of it) simply because a prosecutor owed his lawyer (a mutual friend) big time, so they arranged a great deal. I don't think it's really fair to focus the question of fairness on the cops.

...although I am all for giving Lady Cop a hard time. We wouldn't want her getting soft while she's on medical leave or anything.

[noblesavage]

this will come as a shock...i have been in possession of many ounces of dope during my college years. i do not have any control over the laws i am sworn to enforce, but yes i think many of them are immoral, and need to be changed. i just cannot pick and chose what laws i enforce. can i cut a break? yes. on some things i give the benefit of the doubt, especially when they are not being a total jerk. i will say this...the school zone thing is serious and i would have taken it seriously. and i have absolutely no choice whatsoever on dope until citizens get the laws changed.... aside... as to crack cocaine, i give no quarter, this is the cause of 97% of all crime against you citizens today. violent crime.


How is crack cocaine any different than the "China White" the white kids snort?

Why would you swear to enforce immoral laws?

[lady cop]

Brimshack! you are all for giving me a hard time? aw, i am hurt. ..ok, bring it on, i am not going to plead my recent heart attack. i knew when i came here that people have a visceral response to cops, and i hoped to show the human side of my job. anyway, china white....i never said anything about race. but since you bring it up...crack is dirt cheap as opposed to china white , and therefore addicted the POOR community very fast. the poor are always the test market.

[Brimshack]

Yeah well...


...no donuts for you!


(Sorry it's the best I could do tonight. I'll work on it.)

[lady cop]

[QUOTE=noblesavage

Why would you swear to enforce immoral laws?[/QUOTE]
i swore to enforce the law as it stands, to protect the public and arrest bad guys. so who would you call when someone is breaking into your house? the ACLU? someone has to take those oaths and put their bodies in the line of fire. and it involves an oath that i take seriously...to protect YOUR butt. change the law if you do not like it.

[noblesavage]

Brimshack! you are all for giving me a hard time? aw, i am hurt. ..ok, bring it on, i am not going to plead my recent heart attack. i knew when i came here that people have a visceral response to cops, and i hoped to show the human side of my job. anyway, china white....i never said anything about race. but since you bring it up...crack is dirt cheap as opposed to china white , and therefore addicted the POOR community very fast. the poor are always the test market.

Brimshack, that crack pot? No! I'm a lot more worried about white color crime than violent crime.

So, why did you swear to enforce immoral laws? How is that any different than violent crime? So, you have to earn your pay check with a gun? Sounds like the mob to me.

[lady cop]

Yeah well...


...no donuts for you!


(Sorry it's the best I could do tonight. I'll work on it.)
:donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :coffeemug: :policecar: :piggy: :pigfly: :D....uhmmm...let me remind you i have my own personal smiley! :ladycop:

[noblesavage]

Yeah well...


...no donuts for you!


(Sorry it's the best I could do tonight. I'll work on it.)
:donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :donut: :coffeemug: :policecar: :piggy: :pigfly: :D....uhmmm...let me remind you i have my own personal smiley! :ladycop:

My name is Dan Lambert. My h4x0r name is NobleSavage. You can reach me at dan@OrbWeaver.net Fortune 500 companies (well, at leat one) pay me to do things we won't talk about.

[lady cop]

Brimshack! you are all for giving me a hard time? aw, i am hurt. ..ok, bring it on, i am not going to plead my recent heart attack. i knew when i came here that people have a visceral response to cops, and i hoped to show the human side of my job. anyway, china white....i never said anything about race. but since you bring it up...crack is dirt cheap as opposed to china white , and therefore addicted the POOR community very fast. the poor are always the test market.

Brimshack, that crack pot? No! I'm a lot more worried about white color crime than violent crime.

So, why did you swear to enforce immoral laws? How is that any different than violent crime? So, you have to earn your pay check with a gun? Sounds like the mob to me.
this is getting bizarre...my gun is like someone else's ink pen, a tool of my trade, since some seem intent on killing me for doing my job.57 of us were killed by guns in 2004. see my answer above about immoral laws. and let me tell you, i am much more concerned over violent crime than some guy keeping a double set of books. we'll get him too, but violence is my stock in trade. and the public at large is afraid of violence, not martha stewart.

[noblesavage]

Brimshack! you are all for giving me a hard time? aw, i am hurt. ..ok, bring it on, i am not going to plead my recent heart attack. i knew when i came here that people have a visceral response to cops, and i hoped to show the human side of my job. anyway, china white....i never said anything about race. but since you bring it up...crack is dirt cheap as opposed to china white , and therefore addicted the POOR community very fast. the poor are always the test market.

Brimshack, that crack pot? No! I'm a lot more worried about white color crime than violent crime.

So, why did you swear to enforce immoral laws? How is that any different than violent crime? So, you have to earn your pay check with a gun? Sounds like the mob to me.
this is getting bizarre...my gun is like someone else's ink pen, a tool of my trade, since some seem intent on killing me for doing my job.57 of us were killed by guns in 2004. see my answer above about immoral laws. and let me tell you, i am much more concerned over violent crime than some guy keeping a double set of books. we'll get him too, but violence is my stock in trade. and the public at large is afraid of violence, not martha stewart.

Ok, so you are a public servant for a corrupt government agency. Why not act like it?

[wade-w]

<nitpick>
Umm... isn't China White heroin?
</nitpick>

Noblesavage, I think you're out of line here. Someone has to enforce the law, and deal with violent criminals. Yes, there are immoral laws on the books, but as lady cop says, the onus is on society to change those laws. Apparently we didn't learn our lesson with Prohibition. I don't think that is or should be lady cop's responsibility.

[noblesavage]

So your responsibly stops at being a "cop"; not one of us "citizens" that should change the law?

I think the British have the right idea: take the guns away from the cops and give them a stick. It makes them a lot more humble. And I'm speaking as a British "citizen".

[lady cop]

Brimshack! you are all for giving me a hard time? aw, i am hurt. ..ok, bring it on, i am not going to plead my recent heart attack. i knew when i came here that people have a visceral response to cops, and i hoped to show the human side of my job. anyway, china white....i never said anything about race. but since you bring it up...crack is dirt cheap as opposed to china white , and therefore addicted the POOR community very fast. the poor are always the test market.

Brimshack, that crack pot? No! I'm a lot more worried about white color crime than violent crime.

So, why did you swear to enforce immoral laws? How is that any different than violent crime? So, you have to earn your pay check with a gun? Sounds like the mob to me.
this is getting bizarre...my gun is like someone else's ink pen, a tool of my trade, since some seem intent on killing me for doing my job.57 of us were killed by guns in 2004. see my answer above about immoral laws. and let me tell you, i am much more concerned over violent crime than some guy keeping a double set of books. we'll get him too, but violence is my stock in trade. and the public at large is afraid of violence, not martha stewart.

Ok, so you are a public servant for a corrupt government agency. Why not act like it?
my agency is not corrupt. what in the world are you talking about? why not act like WHAT? ...hi Wade, and thanks for the voice of reason. why am i subjecting myself to this and trying to answer rationally? i am not going to change anyone's opinion here, especially someone with an agenda. i am accustomed to cop haters. no problem.

[LadyShea]

I agree with wade, NS. Your comments are out of line and quite frankly you sound irrational.

[noblesavage]

my agency is not corrupt.

Yeah, right. And how many dirty secrets do you now that you haven't told IA?

i am accustomed to cop haters. no problem.

What the hell are you talking about? At least three of by close friends are cops, but they know their place.

[Brimshack]

I know I'm just a crackpot, but your critique of LC does seem unnecessarily personal, and I can't for the life of me figure out why any of us are looking at your personal information. It really seems like you have something personal on your mind right now, and maybe a public message board isn't the best way to vent that. Why not sleep on it?

In any event, I am out of this discussion for the evening.

Gnite all.

[lady cop]

So your responsibly stops at being a "cop"; not one of us "citizens" that should change the law?

I think the British have the right idea: take the guns away from the cops and give them a stick. It makes them a lot more humble. And I'm speaking as a British "citizen".
well as a soon-to-be British citizen :unitedkingdom: i admire the lack of gun violence in the UK.and most of europe. however, since Dunblane i fear things have changed and will continue to do so. America is the wild west of violence. of course i am a citizen as well as a cop...do you know how i vote on legislation? i am sorry you are so hostile, i have tried to be reasonable here. i really have to get to sleep, and wish you a happy new year.

[noblesavage]

I know I'm just a crackpot, but your critique of LC does seem unnecessarily personal, and I can't for the life of me figure out why any of us are looking at your personal information. It really seems like you have something personal on your mind right now, and maybe a public message board isn't the best way to vent that. Why not sleep on it?

In any event, I am out of this discussion for the evening.

Gnite all.


Hey Brim, sorry for the "crakcpot" slam. I actually like some of your posts. I'm just pissed about a $50 ticket that I'm not paying for. You would think that cops have something better to do, like find those violent criminals that all smoke crack cocaine.

[noblesavage]

So your responsibly stops at being a "cop"; not one of us "citizens" that should change the law?

I think the British have the right idea: take the guns away from the cops and give them a stick. It makes them a lot more humble. And I'm speaking as a British "citizen".
well as a soon-to-be British citizen :unitedkingdom: i admire the lack of gun violence in the UK.and most of europe. however, since Dunblane i fear things have changed and will continue to do so. America is the wild west of violence. of course i am a citizen as well as a cop...do you know how i vote on legislation? i am sorry you are so hostile, i have tried to be reasonable here. i really have to get to sleep, and wish you a happy new year.

Violence breads violence; good night. :D

[noblesavage]

<nitpick>
Umm... isn't China White heroin?
</nitpick>

Yeah, I don't know that much about drugs...

anyhow...

[quote]
Noblesavage, I think you're out of line here. Someone has to enforce the law, and deal with violent criminals. Yes, there are immoral laws on the books, but as lady cop says, the onus is on society to change those laws. Apparently we didn't learn our lesson with Prohibition. I don't think that is or should be lady cop's responsibility.

I think I got confused as I'm watching a movie and I replied to lady cop when I should have replied to you. Yes, someone has to enforce the law; however I don't think that lets cops off the hook. Nor do I defend lawyers--I'll be the first to rip on them. I don't really have a point other than corruption exist in all organizations... maybe it is "professional courtesy " or "giving someone a break if they are not a jerk" or enforcing an immoral law. Most of us have to earn a living and not many of us can claim to be 100% squeaky clean. My issue is many individuals in law enforcement, cops or prosecutors, engage in shady practices such as getting their friends out of trouble, yet have the attitude that they are morally superior to those people who smoke crack or any other label you would like to give a segment of society that is discriminated against.

[noblesavage]

I agree with wade, NS. Your comments are out of line and quite frankly you sound irrational.

What is irrational? I'll be glad to explain myself? I was just asking lady cop questions.. yeah they might have been hostile, but I'm sure as a cop she has been trained to deal with hostility.

[lady cop]

my agency is not corrupt.

Yeah, right. And how many dirty secrets do you now that you haven't told IA?

i am accustomed to cop haters. no problem.

What the hell are you talking about? At least three of by close friends are cops, but they know their place.
dirty secrets?? :eek: and what is "their place?".i really need someone to tell me. so i will know my place!

[viscousmemories]

I agree with wade, NS. Your comments are out of line and quite frankly you sound irrational.

What is irrational? I'll be glad to explain myself? I was just asking lady cop questions.. yeah they might have been hostile, but I'm sure as a cop she has been trained to deal with hostility.
I'm pretty sure she's not on duty here...

I think a lot of laws are immoral and I've wondered myself how cops can personally justify enforcing some of them, but I'm grateful there are people who are willing to do what it takes to "protect and serve" nonetheless. As it happens I don't always follow the moral high-road in everything I do myself.

Anyway I've known plenty of good cops, and so far lady cop hasn't given me any reason to believe she isn't one of them.

[noblesavage]

This is a great article on the insanity of the US government's effort to eradicate the coca plant: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/columbia.h

Exerpt:


Over the past three years, rumors of a new strain of coca have circulated in the Colombian military. The new plant, samples of which are spread out on this table, goes by different names: supercoca, la millonaria. Here in the southern region it's known as Boliviana negra. The most impressive characteristic is not that it produces more leaves - though it does - but that it is resistant to glyphosate. The herbicide, known by its brand name, Roundup, is the key ingredient in the US-financed, billion-dollar aerial coca fumigation campaign that is a cornerstone of America's war on drugs.

[noblesavage]

Anyway I've known plenty of good cops, and so far lady cop hasn't given me any reason to believe she isn't one of them.

True. I was just trying to find out...

[noblesavage]

my agency is not corrupt.

Yeah, right. And how many dirty secrets do you now that you haven't told IA?

i am accustomed to cop haters. no problem.

What the hell are you talking about? At least three of by close friends are cops, but they know their place.
dirty secrets?? :eek: and what is "their place?".i really need someone to tell me. so i will know my place!


Ok... truce. Sorry, if I came of as hostile. Maybe it is just that cop cars with flashing lights get my blood pressure up.

[justaman]

Aight, first of all I don't share the anti-cop sentiments that have been prominent here, but I would like to hear a law enforcement opinion about the mass arrest of the protest at the Republican Convention Aug 31. Everyone involved in a peaceful protest (and a great many innocent bystanders) were arrested. I remember reading this and wondering exactly how the U.S. wasn't a police state. It seemed the most clear violation of your civil rights one could imagine. The president didn't want his convention tainted by protesters, so he arrests everyone.

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/09-05-04/discussion.cgi.40.html

[noblesavage]

Perhaps if I explain where I live it will help everyone understand why I started this thread. I live in a suburb of St. Louis called Wildwood. We have more cops per square inch than Catholics in Italy. My cop friends have called me when they are bored and on patrol. I'm like, "what are you up to" and they say, "collecting revenue". I haven’t seen the stats on Wildwood, but I have seen the stats on a lot of other suburbs when I worked for a legal clinic. Many of the suburbs collect over 1/2 of their revenue from stuff like going over the speed limit by 5 mph or J-walking. There is very little or no violent crime where I live. Now, North St. Louis is probably one of the most dangerous places you can find. How many cops are on parole in N. St. Louis? Hardly any.

Anyhow; the law enforcement out by my place is a total scam. This is what happens: you get a ticket and you call you attorney. Your attorney has the prosecutor change your speeding ticket to something like illegal parking so the points don't go on your license and increase your insurance. So you pay your attorney $100 and then you pay the court an extra $100 for the privilege of lower insurance rates. Everyone does it.

[livius drusus]

Perhaps the ignore avatar feature might be of use to you, NS.

[LadyShea]

I agree with wade, NS. Your comments are out of line and quite frankly you sound irrational.

What is irrational? I'll be glad to explain myself? I was just asking lady cop questions.. yeah they might have been hostile, but I'm sure as a cop she has been trained to deal with hostility.

Well let's see, so far you have stated that cops are no better than violent mobsters and don't "know their place" because they have to enforce all laws, some of which you consider immoral.

Basically your argument seems to be "I got a 50$ ticket so ladycop sucks". What the fuck? You didn't get your new tags on time, you got a ticket. Pay it and quit acting like an angsty teenager pissed off at the establishment. Next you'll be calling her a pig or some shit.

Oh and take some responsibility for yourself. There's no reason you couldn't have gotten your tags on time, but you didn't, and you got fined for it. All your fault not the cops.

[wei yau]

Well let's see, so far you have stated that cops are no better than violent mobsters and don't "know their place" because they have to enforce all laws, some of which you consider immoral.

Basically your argument seems to be "I got a 50$ ticket so ladycop sucks". What the fuck? You didn't get your new tags on time, you got a ticket. Pay it and quit acting like an angsty teenager pissed off at the establishment. Next you'll be calling her a pig or some shit.

Oh and take some responsibility for yourself. There's no reason you couldn't have gotten your tags on time, but you didn't, and you got fined for it. All your fault not the cops.

You know, I'm trying to find something wrong with Lady Shea's post above and I simply can't find anything wrong.

Granted, there are such things as corrupt cops. But, that doesn't mean I dislike all cops. I dislike corrupt cops. Hell, I dislike corrupt people. But, I don't see how any of this is applicable to ladycop.

[godfry n. glad]

Well let's see, so far you have stated that cops are no better than violent mobsters and don't "know their place" because they have to enforce all laws, some of which you consider immoral.

Basically your argument seems to be "I got a 50$ ticket so ladycop sucks". What the fuck? You didn't get your new tags on time, you got a ticket. Pay it and quit acting like an angsty teenager pissed off at the establishment. Next you'll be calling her a pig or some shit.

Oh and take some responsibility for yourself. There's no reason you couldn't have gotten your tags on time, but you didn't, and you got fined for it. All your fault not the cops.

You know, I'm trying to find something wrong with Lady Shea's post above and I simply can't find anything wrong.

Granted, there are such things as corrupt cops. But, that doesn't mean I dislike all cops. I dislike corrupt cops. Hell, I dislike corrupt people. But, I don't see how any of this is applicable to ladycop.


Amen to that.

godfry

[wildernesse]

Anyhow; the law enforcement out by my place is a total scam. This is what happens: you get a ticket and you call you attorney. Your attorney has the prosecutor change your speeding ticket to something like illegal parking so the points don't go on your license and increase your insurance. So you pay your attorney $100 and then you pay the court an extra $100 for the privilege of lower insurance rates. Everyone does it.

If everyone does it, then it doesn't really sound like it's completely the cops fault, now is it? In my opinion, the immoral person in this scenario is the citizen who is trying to get out of punishment that he rightly deserves.

[godfry n. glad]

Anyhow; the law enforcement out by my place is a total scam. This is what happens: you get a ticket and you call you attorney. Your attorney has the prosecutor change your speeding ticket to something like illegal parking so the points don't go on your license and increase your insurance. So you pay your attorney $100 and then you pay the court an extra $100 for the privilege of lower insurance rates. Everyone does it.

If everyone does it, then it doesn't really sound like it's completely the cops fault, now is it? In my opinion, the immoral person in this scenario is the citizen who is trying to get out of punishment that he rightly deserves.

And the attorney and judge who knowingly participate in defrauding insurance companies.

I'd say that if one is really upset with this, their best course of action would be to inform the insurance companies who insure most of the drivers in the region. They have the ability to investigate and bring legal and/or political pressure to actually change the circumstances.

But then, most folks attitudes about insurance companies would preclude this avenue of action.

godfry

[freemonkey]

Anyhow; the law enforcement out by my place is a total scam. This is what happens: you get a ticket and you call you attorney. Your attorney has the prosecutor change your speeding ticket to something like illegal parking so the points don't go on your license and increase your insurance. So you pay your attorney $100 and then you pay the court an extra $100 for the privilege of lower insurance rates. Everyone does it.

If everyone does it, then it doesn't really sound like it's completely the cops fault, now is it? In my opinion, the immoral person in this scenario is the citizen who is trying to get out of punishment that he rightly deserves.

And the attorney and judge who knowingly participate in defrauding insurance companies.

I'd say that if one is really upset with this, their best course of action would be to inform the insurance companies who insure most of the drivers in the region. They have the ability to investigate and bring legal and/or political pressure to actually change the circumstances.

But then, most folks attitudes about insurance companies would preclude this avenue of action.

godfry

Yeah, what they said.

Additionally, not all cops work out in the high-rent cushy suburbs, either. Looks like you're projecting your friends' boring and unnecessary jobs onto all cops.

Wanna start in on firefighters now?

[wildernesse]

Anyhow; the law enforcement out by my place is a total scam. This is what happens: you get a ticket and you call you attorney. Your attorney has the prosecutor change your speeding ticket to something like illegal parking so the points don't go on your license and increase your insurance. So you pay your attorney $100 and then you pay the court an extra $100 for the privilege of lower insurance rates. Everyone does it.

If everyone does it, then it doesn't really sound like it's completely the cops fault, now is it? In my opinion, the immoral person in this scenario is the citizen who is trying to get out of punishment that he rightly deserves.

And the attorney and judge who knowingly participate in defrauding insurance companies.



Yes, but they wouldn't be involved without the "citizen".

[godfry n. glad]

Anyhow; the law enforcement out by my place is a total scam. This is what happens: you get a ticket and you call you attorney. Your attorney has the prosecutor change your speeding ticket to something like illegal parking so the points don't go on your license and increase your insurance. So you pay your attorney $100 and then you pay the court an extra $100 for the privilege of lower insurance rates. Everyone does it.

If everyone does it, then it doesn't really sound like it's completely the cops fault, now is it? In my opinion, the immoral person in this scenario is the citizen who is trying to get out of punishment that he rightly deserves.

And the attorney and judge who knowingly participate in defrauding insurance companies.



Yes, but they wouldn't be involved without the "citizen".

True, but very few "citizens" have the necessary knowledge and/or connections to make something like this happen. It takes a professional with an understanding of what is possible in order to actually carry this out.

I'd say the crux of this kind behavior revolves around the attorney. They know the law (reputedly) and they know the actors. They'd have to suggest this to the client (and, yes, the client would have to approve), as it's unlikely that the client would know much beyond rumors like the one noblesavage posted.

godfry

[Petra]

NS, if you have a crack cocaine problem at all, then I suggest you seek help.

I also suggest you pay your fine and get you car tags in order.

You are sounding irrational, and whatever you may think of drug laws or whatever, if you have a drug and/or alcohol problem get help.

[Dingfod]

Oddly enough, police officer doesn't even make the top ten in the list of most hazardous jobs in America. (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp) Drivers and sales workers (convenience store clerks) are mid-pack in risk, why don't they feel such a brotherhood? I know there have been a lot more convenience store clerks killed on their job than cops here in Tulsa. On site states that over 31,000 convenience store clerks or store owners were shot last year (most not fatally). Despite that unifying factor, I'm pretty sure a convenience store clerk at 7-11 isn't going to extend "professional courtesy" to a convenience store clerk from another store if they were shoplifting. If cops extend professional courtesy to other cops (and they do, all the time), letting them out of minor violations of the laws like an expired tag, how is that fair to the poor schlub barely getting by that gets stopped for the same offense. It isn't, and it shouldn't be going on.

Noble Savage, here in Oklahoma, if you get ticketed for expired tags, it will usually be waived in court if you show proof that you've obtained the tags in the meantime, you would only pay about $35 in court costs. Just get the damn tags and plea your case in court, cheaper than a lawyer and it isn't considered a moving violation that would affect your insurance anyway, not here in Oklahoma anyway.

[wei yau]

I'm not convinced that hazard duty is the sole reasons why police may feel a sense of brotherhood. There has to be other factors. As you say, conveience store clerks lack such a sense. But, then again, they tend to work alone. They are not unionized. And despite the hazardous nature of their jobs, they don't necessarily rely on each other for protection.

On the other hand, they due rely on cops to some degree. And I'm sure that, on occassion, they'll forego charging the officer for a cup of coffee.

I agree that "professional courtesy" can cross the line, but that sort of thing isn't restricted to cops alone. My folks own a restaurant and they would give discounts to other local restauranteurs dining in their restaurant, they would receive the same treatment when visiting other local establishments. I guess this analogy is a little poor, as restaurants are a private business. But, the point I'm trying to make is that the extension of "professional courtesies" seems to be more universal than something that only cops do.

It's probably not fair, but except for the cases of gross violations, we're talking about pretty petty stuff. As you advised, NS can get out of it by simply showing that he's renewed the tags.

[Dingfod]

Damn. Nobody ever extended me a professional courtesy, ever. Shit. Wrong job.

[freemonkey]

Oddly enough, police officer doesn't even make the top ten in the list of most hazardous jobs in America. (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp) Drivers and sales workers (convenience store clerks) are mid-pack in risk, why don't they feel such a brotherhood? I know there have been a lot more convenience store clerks killed on their job than cops here in Tulsa. On site states that over 31,000 convenience store clerks or store owners were shot last year (most not fatally).
Just a thought about risk factors.... convenience store clerks don't receive the same kind of training for their jobs as police do for theirs. If cops were sent out without weapons, training and a feeling that they are doing something to help people, they would certainly have higher risk.

[Dingfod]

Just a thought about risk factors.... convenience store clerks don't receive the same kind of training for their jobs as police do for theirs. If cops were sent out without weapons, training and a feeling that they are doing something to help people, they would certainly have higher risk.What are you saying, that convenience store clerks should be trained and armed? The only training they usually receive is to submit to robbers, and for that they get shot and stabbed anyway. If they do fight back or carry a gun they get fired. I'd rather be a cop than a convenience store clerk, at least I'd have a gun too. Wanna talk about low pay now?

[wei yau]

What are you saying, that convenience store clerks should be trained and armed? The only training they usually receive is to submit to robbers, and for that they get shot and stabbed anyway. If they do fight back or carry a gun they get fired. I'd rather be a cop than a convenience store clerk, at least I'd have a gun too. Wanna talk about low pay now?

I don't think that's what freemonkey is saying, although I don't want to presume to speak for freemonkey. Cops probably have a lower risk rate than conveience store clerks because the training and equipment they receive help to mitigate the risk factor.

As for whether or not clerks should receive such training, equipment or hazard pay...those are fine things to discuss, but I don't see how such things are necessarily things to hold against cops.

[Dingfod]

I don't hold anything against cops, they have a tough job. Society needs them to do that job. But, I would like it if they had integrity as well as grit, no matter the pay or the hours or the risk, the integrity to refuse "professional courtesy" as well as the integrity to not extend it to a person that has violated a law that would get a civilian a ticket or arrest. That's all I want, I want my cops, my firemen, my government employees, my convenience store clerks, hell, my newspaper carrier to have integrity.

[Dingfod]

Cops probably have a lower risk rate than conveience store clerks because the training and equipment they receive help to mitigate the risk factor.True enough. Convenience store clerks are taught to submit to robbers to mitigate their risks. Unfortunately, far too many times it doesn't work all that well.

[wei yau]

I don't hold anything against cops, they have a tough job. Society needs them to do that job. But, I would like it if they had integrity as well as grit, no matter the pay or the hours or the risk, the integrity to refuse "professional courtesy" as well as the integrity to not extend it to a person that has violated a law that would get a civilian a ticket or arrest. That's all I want, I want my cops, my firemen, my government employees, my convenience store clerks, hell, my newspaper carrier to have integrity.

Amen to that.

Sometimes even I want to have integrity, but all too often I fail.

[Dingfod]

You and me both. I have much integrity when it comes to some things, but not much when it comes to my employer, who hasn't shown to have much in the way of integrity themselves.

[wei yau]

You and me both. I have much integrity when it comes to some things, but not much when it comes to my employer, who hasn't shown to have much in the way of integrity themselves.

Well, my employer is pretty good about that sort of thing. I'm probably not that good of an employee as I'm posting when I should be working ;)

Sorry if I came off as being antagonistic, I see that I assumed you had a problem with cops and I realize that it was a misconception on my part.

[Dingfod]

You and me both. I have much integrity when it comes to some things, but not much when it comes to my employer, who hasn't shown to have much in the way of integrity themselves.

Well, my employer is pretty good about that sort of thing. I'm probably not that good of an employee as I'm posting when I should be working ;)

Sorry if I came off as being antagonistic, I see that I assumed you had a problem with cops and I realize that it was a misconception on my part.I don't have a problem with cops at all, only bad ones.

[lisarea]

Cops probably have a lower risk rate than conveience store clerks because the training and equipment they receive help to mitigate the risk factor.True enough. Convenience store clerks are taught to submit to robbers to mitigate their risks. Unfortunately, far too many times it doesn't work all that well.

In my experience, they aren't taught anything. This was a long time ago, but I worked in a convenience store when I was 18-19, and nobody ever said anything about what to do in an emergency, except to call the police and then fill out some forms. I was maybe 95#, looked like a little kid, and I regularly worked graveyard by myself in the middle of nowhere (and EVERY time I managed to score a swing shift, the person who was scheduled for graveyard would call in sick, so I'd end up having to work it anyway). The nearest businesses to my home store were a couple of bars and a whorehouse, which was raided during my tenure at the store. I was flashed regularly, grabbed by customers, etc. One of the few times I didn't work graveyard, one of my devoted "fans" actually hit the girl who was working there because she wouldn't tell him where I lived. I was never robbed, but that was mostly because a few cops and delivery people and the like were horrified that I was out there working alone all night and kind of took it upon themselves to babysit me. I was cased, but I credit those guys making their presence known with preventing an actual robbery.

It's worth noting that it was a violation of store policy for anyone to work graveyard alone, but that never stopped them.

I'm kind of just venting, because that's one of my hot buttons, of course, but if I have to fabricate some kind of moral to stay on-topic: I don't think the danger faced by convenience store clerks really mitigates the dangers cops face, just because the situations those people are put in are ridiculous.

[Dingfod]

I was wrong about the relative risk, death by homicide is about the same risk for police officers and convenience store personnel. I just gleaned these from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (might be old, I don't know).

Fatalities by homicide per 100,000 individuals:

Police officers, detectives, and supervisors = 4.27
Sales clerks, supervisors and store owners = 4.55

There just seem to be a lot more convenience store homicides because there are about 7 times as many of them. However,... waaaaaaaaaay more hazardous than either of those:

Taxicab drivers = 46.5. :eek:

[lisarea]

I was wrong about the relative risk, death by homicide is about the same risk for police officers and convenience store personnel. I just gleaned these from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (might be old, I don't know).

Fatalities by homicide per 100,000 individuals:

Police officers, detectives, and supervisors = 4.27
Sales clerks, supervisors and store owners = 4.55

There just seem to be a lot more convenience store homicides because there are about 7 times as many of them.

But is that just for convenience store employees, or does it count people who work at department stores and bookstores and such as well? That would really dilute the numbers if that's the case.


However,... waaaaaaaaaay more hazardous than either of those:

Taxicab drivers = 46.5. :eek:

Holy shit.

Just: Holy shit.

[lady cop]

i wouldn't let my kid work in a convenience store at night. period. i wouldn't do it myself.too freaking dangerous. the people robbing those stores are usually coked up or totally desperate, and they are so twitchy they kill even if that wasn't their initial intent. as to the brotherhood thing, i wonder if it is akin to combat troops who build a camaraderie when facing a mutual enemy. and cab drivers...in my medium -sized city fully 94% of all cab drivers have serious criminal records and felony convictions,including armed rape, as well as no valid hack license...(we did a big expose about it in conjunction with local paper). i am at a loss why city police have not done a sweep here, their purview, we are county. they are often drug runners, and usually pimping as well. we get them individually, but it stinks and i feel concern for the many tourists who frequent this area. i do NOT mean to imply they should be subject to robbery and murder! but around here, it's the company they keep. it isn't mom and pop from arkansas killing them. however, in say miami, it's cokeheads killing the cabbies for chump change. it is a very dangerous job, they are perceived as easy and quick prey. kind of like mobile convenience stores, but without the cameras.

[Dingfod]

I was wrong about the relative risk, death by homicide is about the same risk for police officers and convenience store personnel. I just gleaned these from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (might be old, I don't know).

Fatalities by homicide per 100,000 individuals:

Police officers, detectives, and supervisors = 4.27
Sales clerks, supervisors and store owners = 4.55

There just seem to be a lot more convenience store homicides because there are about 7 times as many of them.

But is that just for convenience store employees, or does it count people who work at department stores and bookstores and such as well? That would really dilute the numbers if that's the case. I... don't... know.... , maybe? The graph I saw gave a total number of 1.1 million police officers, detectives, and supervisors and about 7.7 million store owners, supervisors, and sales clerks. Sounds about right for convenience stores. It is far too few if department stores and the like are included.


However,... waaaaaaaaaay more hazardous than either of those:

Taxicab drivers = 46.5. :eek:

Holy shit.

Just: Holy shit.No shit, 99 murders among 213,000 taxicab drivers.

[Dingfod]

...and cab drivers...in my medium -sized city fully 94% of all cab drivers have serious criminal records and felony convictions,including armed rape, as well as no valid hack license...(we did a big expose about it in conjunction with local paper). :eek: Now that's disturbing. Next time I get a cab ride I'm taking my gun. Who is supposed to regulate cabbies anyway? I mean licensing and regulations?
...i do NOT mean to imply they should be subject to robbery and murder! but around here, it's the company they keep. it isn't mom and pop from arkansas killing them. however, in say miami, it's cokeheads killing the cabbies for chump change. it is a very dangerous job, they are perceived as easy and quick prey. kind of like mobile convenience stores, but without the cameras.A few years back a Salt Lake City police detective gave our office a talk about personal safety in one of our scheduled safety meetings. He responded to a question about gang related shootings saying that unless you were in a gang or someone you knew was in a gang or someone in your family was in a gang you were actually at very little risk of being shot by a gang member. It is the company you keep that makes the difference. You cops are hanging out with the wrong crowd, that's what it is.

By the way, there were 45 gang related killings in Salt Lake City last year. Salt Lake City?

/me raises eyebrows

[freemonkey]

I don't think that's what freemonkey is saying, although I don't want to presume to speak for freemonkey. Cops probably have a lower risk rate than conveience store clerks because the training and equipment they receive help to mitigate the risk factor.
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry I wasn't more clear and that I didn't come back sooner to clarify.

In light of the revised statistics, though, either their training doesn't really mitigate the risk factor. Or maybe the job really is inherently more dangerous.

[Dingfod]

By the way, there were 45 gang related killings in Salt Lake City last year.That should've read "45 gang related shootings". I don't know how many of them were fatalities. Gangbangers are notorious bad shots.

[lady cop]

warrenly, thanks for excellent article you sent me on gang activity in salt lake city, i learned something with that. now, on to 1.professional courtesy...this is the type of thing i am talking about, not high crimes...thanksgiving 4 years ago, i had worked 12 hours, tired and wanted to get home. no cars on the road, 0200. i am speeding. in a squad car! i am county, city cop lights me up and stops me...he just comes up to the window, reaches in and puts my seat belt on me (my bad)...he knew i had worked all night and he had too. come on, should he have given me a ticket? would you have? 2. freebies and integrity...i take NOTHING free. except dunkin' donuts will NOT let me pay for coffee, they like our presence during the night. (i know, a classic here, but i don't eat donuts) so i always drop a buck in tip jar. i do not believe in gratuities which can come back to bite you in the ass.

[Dingfod]

When I first started working in a pipeline control center I was told by an old-timer "We have to take care of each other. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. If I screw up, cover for me, and I'll cover for you if you screw up." I looked at him with a puzzled look and said with all seriousness "You do your job and do a good job and you won't need covered. I don't expect anyone to cover for me because I'll own up to my mistakes." That is my philosophy.

But, if I were a cop, I probably would've done the same thing for you as they did because I would probably do the same for Joe Blow, tired from travelling all the way from Potato Falls, Idaho.

And... free coffee? No wonder all the cops are at Dunkin Donuts. Of course, not being a coffee drinker, that wouldn't impress me much.

[CARLA]

:wave: Lady Cop,

:D I'm wondering can you track down someone for me.. ??? :chin: He left me high and dry in San Diego, and took off to live in the Keys..!! :whup:

:wink: :wink:

[lady cop]

:wave: Lady Cop,

:D I'm wondering can you track down someone for me.. ??? :chin: He left me high and dry in San Diego, and took off to live in the Keys..!! :whup:

:wink: :wink:
honey, call me with the pertinent info...you want him found, i'll find him! and kick his ass for you too. :buttkick: of course, down in the keys he may well be living under a bridge. his loss Carla!

[D. Scarlatti]

Many of the suburbs collect over 1/2 of their revenue from stuff like going over the speed limit by 5 mph or J-walking.

Yeah right.

[Sweetie]

I've heard that in some places, some cops have a quota to fill so those ones might be more likely to stop you and give you ticket, never verified that, don't really know how it works, but I never tried either, it makes no difference to me. If I'm speeding I'm speeding.

[Dingfod]

Many of the suburbs collect over 1/2 of their revenue from stuff like going over the speed limit by 5 mph or J-walking.

Yeah right.Some places do get more revenue from tickets than taxes. (http://www.tulsatoday.com/archive/speedtrap1.htm)

[Dingfod]

I've heard that in some places, some cops have a quota to fill so those ones might be more likely to stop you and give you ticket, never verified that, don't really know how it works, but I never tried either, it makes no difference to me. If I'm speeding I'm speeding.My grandpa's neighbor, the Oklahoma State Trooper said that they will deny that to the end, they do not have quotas, only job performance goals, which include the number of traffic stops. What the difference is, who knows, perhaps just semantics? He always smiled when he said it, adding that you are more likely to get a ticket in the last few days of the month.

[D. Scarlatti]

Some places do get more revenue from tickets than taxes. (http://www.tulsatoday.com/archive/speedtrap1.htm)

Interesting, thanks.

My reaction was to the specific references to 5 mph over and jaywalking generating more than half the revenue. My understanding is that ticketing generally kicks in in the 10-15 mph over range, which accords with the article.

[wade-w]

I've heard that in some places, some cops have a quota to fill so those ones might be more likely to stop you and give you ticket, never verified that, don't really know how it works, but I never tried either, it makes no difference to me. If I'm speeding I'm speeding.My grandpa's neighbor, the Oklahoma State Trooper said that they will deny that to the end, they do not have quotas, only job performance goals, which include the number of traffic stops. What the difference is, who knows, perhaps just semantics? He always smiled when he said it, adding that you are more likely to get a ticket in the last few days of the month.

My father is a volunteer reserve officer with the local county sherriff's department. A few months ago, I was having dinner with my parents, and there was a couple there who are both deputies as well. He's a detective, and she's a patrol cop. They said "No, they do not have quotas." However, the county is in receipt of a grant that has as part of it's requirements a minimum number of traffic stops per month. There is a lot of pressure to make the monthly goals so that the county doesn't lose the grant. I commented that it sounds like this amounts to quotas; they seemed rather uncomfortable with this, and hemmed and hawed around it.

[Socratoad]

A little joke, older than most of you, that I read years ago that went something like this:

There was a small town that was making a killing (financially) They built a small school and a hospital at the foot of a hill on a sharp bend in the road. The sign at the top of the hill sais, "Speed limit 60 MPH" . as you came down the hill and around the bend there was a sign "School Zone Speed 15 MPH, and right beside it a sign, "Quiet Hospital Zone."

You could not win, either you received a speeding ticket or you received a ticket for breaching sound ordinance laws for causing excessive noise caused by your squealing brakes.

Not a knee slapper, but I tried.

[LadyShea]

I have been pulled over more times than I can remember, but have only received 3 tickets. Cops almost always let me off with a warning. And before anyone says it, I do not flirt or cry...I am simply polite and accept my guilt for whatever it was I got pulled over for. I started talking with one Nevada HP about the kick ass souped up Firebird he was given as a patrol car. I still got a ticket, but he knocked it down about 15 mph to keep me out of big time fines and points (I was doing 90+). Since the court was up in northern Nevada, I simply paid that one.

Only once did I suspect a revenue generating ticket...Wadsworth runs from East to West across the southern Denver suburbs and goes through, IIRC, 5 separate cities. I got a ticket on the tiny section within the tiny suburb of Sheridan. I deserved it though, it was raining and rather than slow down and stop I punched it on a yellow trying to beat the red light and I didn't beat it. When I went to court, I was handed a prewritten plea down agreement, signed it, paid the 50 bucks and left.

The one other ticket was for "too fast for road conditions" which is a judgement call so the judge deferred it for 90 days. If I had gotten another ticket in that time, both would stick, if not the one would be removed from my records. No need for an attorney at all in any of the three cases.

[lady cop]

revenue-generating tickets....here's a tip, if you have to drive through georgia watch your speed and turn signals etc. :convertible: :sirens: ....also, Lady Shea has the right idea, does the dumbass who wants to argue and speak abusively think it's going to change the cop's mind? i particularly enjoy the always popular classic "i pay your salary" remark. :glare:

[viscousmemories]

I've been pulled over many times, but most of the times I've received warnings or tickets that were seriously downgraded (like 5 over the limit when it was really 35 over). The only time I ever encountered a serious dick cop was when I was a teenager driving a beat up old station wagon that would stall if I came to a complete stop. I had run out to get a pack of smokes late at night - no other cars in sight - and made a right turn on a red light without having come to a complete stop first. I ended up getting 3 tickets totalling $200 for, respectively, running a red light, having a 'mutilated' license (there was a crack in it) and for having the wrong address on my license. And I was - as always - very polite and respectful throughout the whole thing. I'm sorry I know it's the law and all, but that was just uncalled for. :P

[livius drusus]

A friend of mine got pulled over for speeding in South Carolina once. The cop told her he'd take the $200 in cash, thank you, or else he'd just have to take her in. When she said she was only carrying a hundred, he escorted her to the closest ATM. She's a California girl and was only in the area to take care of some shanty her soon to be ex-husband was too lazy to care for. Needless to say, she was scared shitless and just paid the guy off.

[lady cop]

A friend of mine got pulled over for speeding in South Carolina once. The cop told her he'd take the $200 in cash, thank you, or else he'd just have to take her in. When she said she was only carrying a hundred, he escorted her to the closest ATM. She's a California girl and was only in the area to take care of some shanty her soon to be ex-husband was too lazy to care for. Needless to say, she was scared shitless and just paid the guy off.
That, (and VM's story), absolutely sucks ...makes me ashamed of some so-called brothers in blue. one dickhead like that makes it harder for the rest of us to maintain credibility. :fuming: there ARE those among us who abuse their authority and mandate.

[Blake]

now, on to 1.professional courtesy...this is the type of thing i am talking about, not high crimes...thanksgiving 4 years ago, i had worked 12 hours, tired and wanted to get home. no cars on the road, 0200. i am speeding. in a squad car! i am county, city cop lights me up and stops me...he just comes up to the window, reaches in and puts my seat belt on me (my bad)...he knew i had worked all night and he had too. come on, should he have given me a ticket? would you have?
I'm sorry, but I would have. Speeding, while tired, without wearing a seatbelt? That's dangerous behavior. It's probable that you're all alone and only posing a risk to yourself under those conditions (which is still not good), but not certain.

[lady cop]

Blake, you make a good point. but the fact is, even though i should have had my seat belt on, my bad, i am accustomed to driving a cruiser safely at very high rates of speed, and was not doing so that night. :policecar: i may have been doing 60 in a 45. since the city cop and i were the only people out on the road that night, it would have been silly and mean for him to write me a ticket. and probably would have started a county v. city ticket war too, where we rely on each other and are friendly. :sirens: as for speeding, our sheriff has made it known he has unmarked cars watching us. (like we don't know who they are). :convertible: ..however, i do not mean to encourage excessive speed, it was simply about professional courtesy extended to each other in innocuous situations.

[wildernesse]

....also, Lady Shea has the right idea, does the dumbass who wants to argue and speak abusively think it's going to change the cop's mind? i particularly enjoy the always popular classic "i pay your salary" remark. :glare:

We have a family story that is traditionally told as part of the "do not argue or abuse the police" lesson.

My cousin (who was such a hooligan) got pulled over as a teenager for something--driving his truck with his gf and friend. Had the brilliant idea to mouth off big time (and probably more--I was real little, so don't have the juicy details) to the cop, and so ended up in the back of the patrol car. The cop went back to the other two, gave them a talking to and/or told them why he pulled them over, and then said that he thought Cousin had probably calmed down and he'd let him go. Back to the patrol car--opens the door, asks if Cousin learned his lesson. Cousin spouts off AGAIN--equally abusive, and so gets hauled off to jail. Woohoo! The police left the gf and friend with the truck--which they drove back to our house to tell my parents (who functioned as their group's "trusted non-parent adults") that Cousin is in jail. (This part of the story in the traditional retelling is accompanied by re-enacting typical teenage hysterics.) The kicker is that neither the gf or the friend were old enough to have their license at the time.

[Dingfod]

My cousin (who was such a hooligan) got pulled over as a teenager for something--driving his truck with his gf and friend. Had the brilliant idea to mouth off big time (and probably more--I was real little, so don't have the juicy details) to the cop, and so ended up in the back of the patrol car.I have only a little problem with this. Unless physically threatening what reason could there be for such a detainment? Back to the patrol car--opens the door, asks if Cousin learned his lesson. Cousin spouts off AGAIN--equally abusive, and so gets hauled off to jail.On what charge?

[LadyShea]

My cousin (who was such a hooligan) got pulled over as a teenager for something--driving his truck with his gf and friend. Had the brilliant idea to mouth off big time (and probably more--I was real little, so don't have the juicy details) to the cop, and so ended up in the back of the patrol car.I have only a little problem with this. Unless physically threatening what reason could there be for such a detainment? Back to the patrol car--opens the door, asks if Cousin learned his lesson. Cousin spouts off AGAIN--equally abusive, and so gets hauled off to jail.On what charge?

Verbally abusing an officer is illegal assault, as those that are mouthing off are more likely to escalate to physical altercations.

[viscousmemories]

Verbally abusing an officer is illegal assault, as those that are mouthing off are more likely to escalate to physical altercations.
Is that a Vegas thing? It's not a law I've ever heard of...

[LadyShea]

Verbally abusing an officer is illegal assault, as those that are mouthing off are more likely to escalate to physical altercations.
Is that a Vegas thing? It's not a law I've ever heard of...

Hmmm, no. I have just always heard that verbal abuse is (or can be)considered assault and that one can be arrested for saying even "Fuck you" to a cop. Maybe it's one of those silly misconceptions. I'll look it up, I had to have gotten the idea from somewheres.

[Dingfod]

Verbal anything is assault???

[D. Scarlatti]

Verbal anything is assault???

Can be. Assault doesn't require physical contact; battery does.

[Socratoad]

I am having a hard time thinking right now. This is the second day in a row ... dammit.

However it occurs to me that there must be laws covering such situations everywhere. Freedom of speech is not so sanctified that I can go out onto the street or into the nearest mall and just stand there heaping verbal abuse on any person, police or otherwise.

I mean would not such an act result in charges of disturbing the public?

Thoughts please.

[Dingfod]

Verbal anything is assault???

Can be.Examples, please. I just want to be sure to be in complete compliance with the law.

[D. Scarlatti]

Examples, please.

Threats, for example, can be assault.

[viscousmemories]

Threats, for example, can be assault.
I just researched this a bit for another thread 'round here recently, and I read that the threats have to be accompanied by physical gestures that move it "beyond words" before it can be construed as assault.

[viscousmemories]

Oops, I had it wrong.

Assault

An assault invoves:

1. An intentional, unlawful threat or "offer" to cause bodily injury to another by force;
2. Under circumstances which create in the other person a well-founded fear of imminent peril;
3. Where there exists the apparent present ability to carry out the act if not prevented.

Note that an assault can be completed even if there is no actual contact with the plaintiff, and even if the defendant had no actual ability to carry out the apparent threat. For example, a defendant who points a realistic toy gun at the plaintiff may be liable for assault, even though the defendant was fifty feet away from the plaintiff and had no actual ability to inflict harm from that distance.

-source (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/pubarticles/Personal_Injury/assault_battery.html#2)

[D. Scarlatti]

While every battery includes an assault, an assault does not necessarily require a battery to complete it. - Some old case.

[Socratoad]

Oops, I had it wrong.

Assault

An assault invoves:

1. An intentional, unlawful threat or "offer" to cause bodily injury to another by force;
2. Under circumstances which create in the other person a well-founded fear of imminent peril;
3. Where there exists the apparent present ability to carry out the act if not prevented.

Note that an assault can be completed even if there is no actual contact with the plaintiff, and even if the defendant had no actual ability to carry out the apparent threat. For example, a defendant who points a realistic toy gun at the plaintiff may be liable for assault, even though the defendant was fifty feet away from the plaintiff and had no actual ability to inflict harm from that distance.

-source (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/pubarticles/Personal_Injury/assault_battery.html#2)


That seems much more reasonable. Hell if people could just go about cursing and/or threatening other people without being charged I'm afraid society would most likely devolve into chaos.

[Blake]

... the fact is, even though i should have had my seat belt on, my bad, i am accustomed to driving a cruiser safely at very high rates of speed, and was not doing so that night.
I'm sorry; that should have occurred to me. Of course you have specialized training and experience such that you can drive faster than I could without posing the same risk. My apologies!

[viscousmemories]

While every battery includes an assault, an assault does not necessarily require a battery to complete it. - Some old case.
I learned that when I was 13, after being charged with felonious assault for threatening my brother (the football player) with a butcher knife. I seriously doubt I would've used it on him but he disarmed me quickly regardless. So my crime apparently was raising a knife and saying "I'll kill you!" or something of the sort.

[Dingfod]

From this site: (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org//speech/arts/topic.aspx?topic=fighting_words&SearchString=verbal_assault)

Fucking edited my whole fucking post. Read the fucking article above, it fucking spells it out quite well, you fucking board members.

[viscousmemories]

From this site: (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org//speech/arts/topic.aspx?topic=fighting_words&SearchString=verbal_assault)

Fucking edited my whole fucking post. Read the fucking article above, it fucking spells it out quite well, you fucking board members.
You are a mystery to me, sir. Your point was on-topic and well put (I get whole posts in e-mail notifications before they're deleted) so I can't for the life of me figure out why you chose to delete the whole thing. :chin:

[Dingfod]

No it wasn't. I posted before I had read the whole article and jumped to a conclusion that wasn't supported by the entirety of the text in the linked site. My apologies to all concerned.

[D. Scarlatti]

this site: (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org//speech/arts/topic.aspx?topic=fighting_words&SearchString=verbal_assault)

I guess I should have been more clear. I had been referring to the common law definition of assault.

Assault statutes on the other hand are going to vary from state to state, I would imagine. I'm not aware of a case where an assault statute was challenged on First Amendment grounds, but I'm sure there are such cases.

[Dingfod]

I get whole posts in e-mail notifications before they're deletedWow, I did not know that. Food for future thought.

[viscousmemories]

Wow, I did not know that. Food for future thought.
Yep. 'Tis a feature of vb 3.0.

Scarlatti, what is "common law" exactly? Does that mean a general law that other laws are based on, or is it another name for federal law that applies to all the States?

[D. Scarlatti]

Common law is the body of law that's built up in the courts through civil suits. It's distinguished from statutory law, which is the state and federal law that's "on the books," so to speak, that is, written and codifed by legislators.

Tort law is a subset of the common law, which is where you'll find your common law assault cases. A tort is basically a "civil wrong," as opposed to a wrong addressed by criminal law statutes. A popular example (as usual) is O.J. His widely publicized trial was for murder under the California Criminal Code. Afterwards he was sued in civil court for various torts by Nicole Brown's family (where he lost, incidentally).

Hey I just noticed the Roman numeral post count thing. That's awesome.

[viscousmemories]

Common law is the body of law that's built up in the courts through civil suits. It's distinguished from statutory law, which is the state and federal law that's "on the books," so to speak, that is, written and codifed by legislators.
Ah, cool. Thanks.

Tort law is a subset of the common law, which is where you'll find your common law assault cases. A tort is basically a "civil wrong," as opposed to a wrong addressed by criminal law statutes. A popular example (as usual) is O.J. His widely publicized trial was for murder under the California Criminal Code. Afterwards he was sued in civil court for various torts by Nicole Brown's family (where he lost, incidentally).
That has always confused me. I've always understood it as he was found innocent in criminal court of charges that he killed her, but forced to pay restitution by the civil court for killing her. :chin:

[D. Scarlatti]

I've always understood it as he was found innocent in criminal court of charges that he killed her, but forced to pay restitution by the civil court for killing her.

That's exactly what happened. Although technically he wasn't "found innocent," but rather the state failed to meet its burden of proof by proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He was always innocent, and according to the criminal court at least, still is. Don't you just love "legal fictions"?

[viscousmemories]

That's exactly what happened. Although technically he wasn't "found innocent," but rather the state failed to meet its burden of proof by proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He was always innocent, and according to the criminal court at least, still is. Don't you just love "legal fictions"?
Well I can definitely see how some might conclude that the justice system lacks "common sense", and take matters into their own hands. In that vein I'm fairly astounded OJ hasn't been killed by someone who loved Nicole...

[wildernesse]

My cousin (who was such a hooligan) got pulled over as a teenager for something--driving his truck with his gf and friend. Had the brilliant idea to mouth off big time (and probably more--I was real little, so don't have the juicy details) to the cop, and so ended up in the back of the patrol car.I have only a little problem with this. Unless physically threatening what reason could there be for such a detainment? Back to the patrol car--opens the door, asks if Cousin learned his lesson. Cousin spouts off AGAIN--equally abusive, and so gets hauled off to jail.On what charge?

Like I said, I was a kid--so the story as I know it has always been edited. The charge could be whatever reason he pulled them over for to begin with, for all I know.

[Dingfod]

The charge could be whatever reason he pulled them over for to begin with, for all I know.Well, getting lippy with a police officer is probably not going to convince them that they should give you any latitude they might ordinarily give. And I don't blame them one bit.

[viscousmemories]

Well, getting lippy with a police officer is probably not going to convince them that they should give you any latitude they might ordinarily give. And I don't blame them one bit.
The only time I have ever gone verbal apeshit on cops was in Ypsilanti, Michigan, where they have a reputation for not being the most compassionate public servants. I was stupid drunk and they had me in the back of the car after watching me do a flying kick into a chain of newspaper boxes, toppling them. When they threatened to arrest me for destruction of public property I set the boxes upright (anger + alcohol = superhuman strength :P ) and said "What destruction of public property?! Do you see anything DESTROYED here?!"

So they put me in the back seat of the car and interview me, and I'm still being incredibly abrasive. Cop: "So, been drinking tonight?" Me: "Have I been drinking tonight?! What the fuck do you think?!" Etc. But they were extremely calm and polite throughout the whole thing, in the end telling me to walk it off on my way home.

In my next post I'll talk about dirty cops again. I'm doing a good cop, bad cop thing. :)

[Ymir's blood]

I learned that when I was 13, after being charged with felonious assault for threatening my brother (the football player) with a butcher knife. I seriously doubt I would've used it on him but he disarmed me quickly regardless. So my crime apparently was raising a knife and saying "I'll kill you!" or something of the sort.And the lesson here is to keep your mouth shut and not warn the person you want to stab. In the immortal words of Tuco (The Good, The Bad and The Ugly) "If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk!" :draw: