Inventor Dads

[livius drusus]

A new generation of hands-on fathers are not only spending considerably more time with their kids than their dads did with them, but they're inventing stuff while they're at it. My Dad, American Inventor (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/fashion/16dads.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th)

The TOTEaTOT (http://toteatot.com/) looks a little weird to me, but handy as hell, and the Itzbeen baby care timer (http://www.amazon.com/Itzbeen-Baby-Timer-Coast-Innovations/dp/B000MEB3GE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5282190-7524861?ie=UTF8&s=baby-products&qid=1187265458&sr=8-1) is one of those things that makes so much sense you can't believe it only just got invented.

An interesting stat:

According to a study in 2002 by the Families and Work Institute, a research group, Generation X fathers (those age 23 to 37 at the time) spent significantly more workday time caring for and doing things with their children (an average of 3.4 hours each workday) than Boomer fathers did (2.2 hours each workday). Generation Y fathers will continue the trend, the institute predicts.

"This is one of the strongest trends we’ve seen," said Ellen Galinsky, the president of the institute. "When people ask 'What is the story of your data?' it’s a men’s story. Men are really different. It may be an evolution rather than a revolution. But it really is a change."

[Dingfod]

I'm a Boomer and I spent considerably more time with my children than my dad ever did.

[livius drusus]

My dad is pre-war generation and he spent more time with me than any other father I knew, all of whom were younger than him.

[seebs]

I have to admit, the ITZBEEN looks brilliant. Obvious, but apparently it wasn't.

[Dingfod]

Tote-a-Tot is brilliant too, I love multi-use inventions.

[livius drusus]

I have to admit, the ITZBEEN looks brilliant. Obvious, but apparently it wasn't.
I just read some of the Amazon reviews and it looks like it's even more brilliant than I realized with my limited knowledge of newborn care.

You see, one of the skills that really suffers with sleep deprivation is math. If you can even mentally keep track of the times or write them down, doing the "hours" math on when our baby last fed, when she had her diaper changed, etc. is really not as easy as it sounds when you've had no more than about 45 minutes of continuous sleep for four days. So this does it for you - four timers with little icons and a left/right slider for breastfeeding (which is also a tough thing to remember, but something you really don't want to forget). It is exceedingly simple - press the icon button and it restarts the timer - perfect for the sleep-deprived mind.

I wake up in middle of the night and the baby is grunting, for example. I click the backlight button and see that in fact the baby has only been asleep for an hour, and had a diaper and bottle right before that. Then I just go back to sleep. On the other hand, he beguns grunting and making noises and I see the Itzbeen says it's been 2 hours 30 minutes since his last bottle or diaper, and I know it's time to get up and feed him.

[LadyShea]

the Itzbeen baby care timer (http://www.amazon.com/Itzbeen-Baby-Timer-Coast-Innovations/dp/B000MEB3GE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5282190-7524861?ie=UTF8&s=baby-products&qid=1187265458&sr=8-1) is one of those things that makes so much sense you can't believe it only just got invented.


Hmm, I never needed to know how long it had been since a feeding or diaper change. We fed the kid when he was hungry and changed his diaper when it was wet or dirty. Still do it that way. Basing care on the kid's cues rather than clock is part of attachment parenting though, so less crunchy types might need alarms and such.


I am encouraged by the higher involvement by dads though, the kids can only benefit!

[Julie]

Wow talk about going over board...and alarm clock type thing to tell you to change the kid? No way for me...I changed them as soon as they needed it. Plus I beastfed...and that HAS to be done on demand or it really dosnt work very well (as for right side left side a simple hair tie on the wrist worked for that....)


don't know maybe its because I attachment parent...but the thought of that device is appaling to me.

[Cynical-Chick]

Julie, Brandi, I think it's more of a "Is he hungry or does he need to be changed?" A cursory glance at the clock will tell you quicker than a diaper check and bottle will.

[LadyShea]

What do you mean, CC. Are you thinking that when the baby cries or fusses looking at the clock might be able to better inform you of the reason? Let me ask you this, do you pee at specific intervals very day? Do you get hungry at exactly the same times every day? Does anything affect your biological schedule such as activity, illness, stress? Babies are no different, and in fact I would say that their growth spurts and development during the first two years would make them even less likely than an adult to have predictable needs.

Part of attachment parenting is communicating with your child, and learning his or her's internal schedule and cues, responding immediately. Within a few weeks you start to notice subtle cues to allow you to anticipate needs before the crying starts.

For example, kiddo has never once cried or fussed over a dirty or wet diaper. It just didn't bother him. So, without checking frequently I would never know when he needed changing. Using cloth diapers made this easier, since you can feel the wetness. Now, thankfully he'll tell me "poopy" at least, but still doesn't ask for a diaper change when only wet.

Also, it probably should be noted, there is a war of sorts going on, between attachment parents and scheduler parents. Many of those who follow AP philosophies are, as Julie stated, appalled at the thought of using a clock to respond to their child. Schedulers are equally as appalled at APs, considering them slaves to their children. The flame wars...OMG. The worst Pro-Life versus Pro-Choice online fights are tame compared to some of the APs versus Schedulers going on. Seriously.


This is somewhat OT for this thread, maybe we can start a new thread tomorrow on the great Parenting Method Debate.

[Julie]

LOL LS don't know how well that would work here...arn't we the only parents here...well Moms here...that know what the difference between AP and Ezzo/babywise/schedulers are?

BTW for those that don't know most people that schedual their babies use Babywise as their "Parenting Bible" which isn't that far off Babywise is also know as "Growing Kids Gods way"


Now...you want a fight better than any pro-life/pro-choice fight....try Formula fed vs Breastfed! Or Cir'c vs uncut.

[LadyShea]

Back OT, I love DadGear - Dad Diaper Bag, Men's Diaper Vest, Fathers Day Gifts, Dad Gear (www.dadgear.com) . With hubby as the primary caretaker, I bought a plain black diaper bag so as not to force him to carry bunnies and duckies or whatever. We ended up using the one given to us by the hospital most though, until it literally fell apart. It looked a lot like a camera bag.

[livius drusus]

Surely this is the coolest diaper bag ever, no matter what sex dons it:

http://www.dadgear.com/images/items_lg/Med_MessengerSkull&Flames.jpg

[LadyShea]

Yes! I wish I had something like that. I never heard of DadGear though until this thread. I am totally shopping there for baby showers from now on! The collegiate series alone would make my gifts the most talked about. This is Alabama, after all.

[livius drusus]

:lol: You should go whole equality hog and throw a dad baby shower. I bet Frank would love doing something like that.

ETA: Oh hey, there's an elephant on the Bama logo. Too cool. :thumbup:

[Cynical-Chick]

Actually, Julie, I post on a forum with lots of mothers (we mock bad, bad baby names, and discuss child-rearing).

[Qingdai]

Ack, more stuff to buy!

I am happy fathers are spending more time with children.
Although in our house it's partially because grandparents aren't around to help much and daycare/preschool is too expensive. I have to work so we are not so far down below the federal poverty level that we can't survive.
There is an element of breakdown of the social support system in the increased amount of father participation. It'd be nice if it were all voluntary.

ETA: Although the reduction of "cute pastel schemes" in baby gear is always appreciated.

[Chris Porter]

Nice thread! I just bought one of those baby timers for my niece, should be of some help when the baby arrives.

I'm near 50, and my dad spent a lot of time with us kids as we were growing up, taking us on trips, picnics, into the office with him, building stuff for us, etc. It was unusual for the times, but he is never one to concern himself with what other people think about him. I think we turned out pretty decent, and I'm all for more father interaction.

[Clutch Munny]

I think the Itzbeen is a fine idea, and I'm one who just fed the kids when they were hungry, changed them when they needed it. The issue isn't the tool, it's how it's used. The comment about using it, e.g., as a quick orientation device when you wake up and don't know whether it's fifteen minutes or three hours strikes me as perfectly consistent with all but the "crunchiest" approach to crunchy parenting. Not to mention when parents are trading off in a hurry, swapping with grandparents, etc. Suppose I dash in from work, spouse dashes out to hers, suddenly baby cries -- do I prepare a bottle (of formula or expressed breast milk -- appease, appease)? Well, if I can tell at a glance that the baby just had a bottle ten minutes ago, I can save myself the hassle and the kid the discomfort of trying to cram more food into her; chances are she needs a burp instead. What, exactly, is the theoretical baby-rearing objection to having a device that saves and displays this info?

I wouldn't read any of the flamewars into the question of whether that's a useful gizmo to have when you're a new parent. To my mind it has no essential connection to the idea that you should feed, change, whatever, on a rigid schedule.

[LadyShea]

I think the Itzbeen is a fine idea, and I'm one who just fed the kids when they were hungry, changed them when they needed it. The issue isn't the tool, it's how it's used. The comment about using it, e.g., as a quick orientation device when you wake up and don't know whether it's fifteen minutes or three hours strikes me as perfectly consistent with all but the "crunchiest" approach to crunchy parenting. Not to mention when parents are trading off in a hurry, swapping with grandparents, etc. Suppose I dash in from work, spouse dashes out to hers, suddenly baby cries -- do I prepare a bottle (of formula or expressed breast milk -- appease, appease)? Well, if I can tell at a glance that the baby just had a bottle ten minutes ago, I can save myself the hassle and the kid the discomfort of trying to cram more food into her; chances are she needs a burp instead. What, exactly, is the theoretical baby-rearing objection to having a device that saves and displays this info?

I wouldn't read any of the flamewars into the question of whether that's a useful gizmo to have when you're a new parent. To my mind it has no essential connection to the idea that you should feed, change, whatever, on a rigid schedule.

Hmm, thought provoking as always, you sunuvvabitch. Now I have to answer with substance.

1. I think it might lead a new parent to rely on the clock/schedules rather than learn to understand, predict, and adjust to their baby's ever changing rhythms and cues as well as trust their instincts/intuition/understanding/communication or whatever you want to call it.

2. Sometimes babies are hungry 15 minutes after the last feeding (Growth spurts and changing needs in amount per feeding). Sometimes they pee or poop within a few minutes of the last diaper change. Sometimes they just want to be held. Sometimes they fuss at night because they are too hot, too cold, have teething pain, have developed a fever, are constipated, have gas, or feel scared/alone and so to me, knowing that it's been 30 minutes since the last feeding/change only eliminates a single possibility of the cause of the problem. A clock really can't tell you anything other than how long it has been since the last feeding/change, it can't tell you what the baby actually needs.

One of the quoted comments said the woman would ignore the kid and go back to sleep if enough time hadn't elapsed since whatever...doesn't she run the risk of not fulfilling a different need that her kid has? Doesn't she run the risk of ignoring a more serious problem- like illness? Sure, let a kid fuss for a few minutes before responding, sometimes they settle back down and go back to sleep pretty quickly. If there is a real need there, the kid will more likely escalate the fussing rather than soothing himself.

3. No caretaker could possibly be so busy as to not have time for a quick status report when handing off baby duty. "The baby just ate and had a new diaper" or "She needs a bottle" or whatever takes 2 seconds to say.

4. If you're so harried as to need the thing, isn't it safe to assume you would forget or otherwise fail to enter the information or program it or whatever you have to do?

The only thing I can see it being useful for is medications, but I had no trouble using a clock.

[Clutch Munny]

I think the Itzbeen is a fine idea, and I'm one who just fed the kids when they were hungry, changed them when they needed it. The issue isn't the tool, it's how it's used. The comment about using it, e.g., as a quick orientation device when you wake up and don't know whether it's fifteen minutes or three hours strikes me as perfectly consistent with all but the "crunchiest" approach to crunchy parenting. Not to mention when parents are trading off in a hurry, swapping with grandparents, etc. Suppose I dash in from work, spouse dashes out to hers, suddenly baby cries -- do I prepare a bottle (of formula or expressed breast milk -- appease, appease)? Well, if I can tell at a glance that the baby just had a bottle ten minutes ago, I can save myself the hassle and the kid the discomfort of trying to cram more food into her; chances are she needs a burp instead. What, exactly, is the theoretical baby-rearing objection to having a device that saves and displays this info?

I wouldn't read any of the flamewars into the question of whether that's a useful gizmo to have when you're a new parent. To my mind it has no essential connection to the idea that you should feed, change, whatever, on a rigid schedule.

Hmm, thought provoking as always, you sunuvvabitch. Now I have to answer with substance.

Hoo-ah. Bring it on, Momma Bear!

1. I think it might lead a new parent to rely on the clock/schedules rather than learn to understand, predict, and adjust to their baby's ever changing rhythms and cues as well as trust their instincts/intuition/understanding/communication or whatever you want to call it.

I suppose it could. But what's the reason to think that it would -- as if a new parent hasn't put any other thought into the matter? I'd have used the thing, if I'd have had it, but I can't see how it would have changed my basic views on parenting.

2. Sometimes babies are hungry 15 minutes after the last feeding (Growth spurts and changing needs in amount per feeding). Sometimes they pee or poop within a few minutes of the last diaper change. Sometimes they just want to be held. Sometimes they fuss at night because they are too hot, too cold, have teething pain, have developed a fever, are constipated, have gas, or feel scared/alone and so to me, knowing that it's been 30 minutes since the last feeding/change only eliminates a single possibility of the cause of the problem. A clock really can't tell you anything other than how long it has been since the last feeding/change, it can't tell you what the baby actually needs.

This is the big one. But look, babies are sometimes hungry 15 minutes after eating. The question is just whether they're likely to be. I don't think the Itzbeen counsels parents to not try another bottle, if other things don't work. The basic point is just that for any responsible parent, the question of what to do next with a baby is enormously influenced by what was done last with the baby, and when. This gizmo helps you track that information. Don't need help with that? Don't get one. But lots of parents, especially moms, have a hard time tracking that info, and would at least appreciate having the backup. I don't see any of that intruding on the AP vs Schedulers death match.

One of the quoted comments said the woman would ignore the kid and go back to sleep if enough time hadn't elapsed since whatever...doesn't she run the risk of not fulfilling a different need that her kid has?

Sure. Putting the kid in a high chair runs a risk, too, as does leaving her on the floor. Rousing the kid when she "grunts" in the night risks not giving her a chance to learn how to go back to sleep. You absolutely absolutely absofuckinglutely do not have to be a "Scheduler" to think that a kid who grunts or even squawks a bit at night doesn't necessarily need to be attended. I doubt that the Itzbeen tells parents that once they go back to sleep, they should continue to tune out any subsequent crying, no matter how frantic! It's just a tool -- one that can make some aspects of parenting a bit easier. It's not itself an ideology of parenting.

If there is a real need there, the kid will more likely escalate the fussing rather than soothing himself.

Exactly.

3. No caretaker could possibly be so busy as to not have time for a quick status report when handing off baby duty. "The baby just ate and had a new diaper" or "She needs a bottle" or whatever takes 2 seconds to say.

Well, that doesn't sound very realistic. When it comes to the harried situations of parents and extended families trying to make jobs and travel and non-nuclear families work out, that sort of "nobody could possibly" assertion is always dubious. I doubt that anyone could forget all the time. But here and there? Totally. And what's wrong with having backup?

4. If you're so harried as to need the thing, isn't it safe to assume you would forget or otherwise fail to enter the information or program it or whatever you have to do?

No, it isn't safe to assume that. As you know, a lot of what one does baby-care-wise in the middle of the night or during a bleary afternoon after a night of no sleep has a pretty ritualistic character. If pushing the little button is part of the feeding/changing/medicating ritual, you can do it on cruise control. Then the information is there when a judgement call really is required.

[LadyShea]

1. I think it might lead a new parent to rely on the clock/schedules rather than learn to understand, predict, and adjust to their baby's ever changing rhythms and cues as well as trust their instincts/intuition/understanding/communication or whatever you want to call it.

I suppose it could. But what's the reason to think that it would -- as if a new parent hasn't put any other thought into the matter? I'd have used the thing, if I'd have had it, but I can't see how it would have changed my basic views on parenting.

I dunno about you, but I would say most parents I have come across over the years put zero thought into the matter. They just go along with how they were raised, on the advice of friends and family, or possibly whatever new parenting fad is sweeping their church or community (Ezzo started as a ministry). These are the people most likely, in my opinion, to succumb to parenting by the clock.

The basic parenting view of AP is to get to know your baby and respond to your baby's needs when he/she has them; not a hypothetical generic baby, not "most" babies, but solely the little individual you are sharing your life with.

The basic parenting view of schedulers seems to be that the baby has to learn to live by the routine you have set and assuming they will adjust in a healthy manner to that routine. Babies have been diagnosed with failure to thrive due to their parents religiously following set schedules....most I am sure had no idea they were harming their children.

Anyway, it comes down to an emotional issue, which is also what prompts the flamewars. APs just freak out at the thought of a timer gizmo being in any way involved with parenting, due to the harm they perceive is being done by the schedulers who are obsessed with clocks, and intervals.

It's fallacious reasoning, sure, but parenting is not always logical. At least for me it's proven to be an adventure down the rabbithole...just call me Alice.


This is the big one. But look, babies are sometimes hungry 15 minutes after eating. The question is just whether they're likely to be. I don't think the Itzbeen counsels parents to not try another bottle, if other things don't work. The basic point is just that for any responsible parent, the question of what to do next with a baby is enormously influenced by what was done last with the baby, and when. This gizmo helps you track that information. Don't need help with that? Don't get one. But lots of parents, especially moms, have a hard time tracking that info, and would at least appreciate having the backup. I don't see any of that intruding on the AP vs Schedulers death match.

Can't really say I disagree intellectually. The gut feeling of "bad, wrong" is still there though.



Well, that doesn't sound very realistic. When it comes to the harried situations of parents and extended families trying to make jobs and travel and non-nuclear families work out, that sort of "nobody could possibly" assertion is always dubious. I doubt that anyone could forget all the time. But here and there? Totally. And what's wrong with having backup?

I said no one could possibly not have the time, not that nobody could possibly forget. Anyway, if one forgets such updates, I still maintain they are likely to forget the gizmo.


No, it isn't safe to assume that. As you know, a lot of what one does baby-care-wise in the middle of the night or during a bleary afternoon after a night of no sleep has a pretty ritualistic character. If pushing the little button is part of the feeding/changing/medicating ritual, you can do it on cruise control. Then the information is there when a judgement call really is required.

I don't feed, change, or medicate in the same room/place all the time, so I would have to carry the thing around with me, or at least move it from room to room to keep it updated. I know that for me, it would sit somewhere never touched as I would forget about it unless it is right there in my face.

I totally understand your points, but I just don't see this as being much more than a useless gizmo that has little application in the real world of parenting as I have experienced it, and has mental associations with what I consider harmful parenting methods.

[Clutch Munny]

Fair enough, LS. I think I might have tried it, but I also raised three children (so far) without it. So it can't be that essential! (I'm not counting my other two kids who starved from lack of feeding when I wasn't reminded that it was time.)

Anyhow, it's not a gizmo to compare with truly useful things like our Chariot bicycle-trailer/x-country stroller.

[LadyShea]

I hadn't really meant it to turn into: Itzabeen, innocuous tool or PURE EVIL...sorry about that. I was mostly just FYIng CC with the whole bit about the flame wars, sort of letting her know the lay of the land out there amongst the peoples.

[Ensign Steve]

I don't feed, change, or medicate in the same room/place all the time, so I would have to carry the thing around with me, or at least move it from room to room to keep it updated. I know that for me, it would sit somewhere never touched as I would forget about it unless it is right there in my face.

You could pin it to the baby's clothes, or better yet, tattoo the information onto his skin! :baby:

[LadyShea]

You could pin it to the baby's clothes, or better yet, tattoo the information onto his skin! :baby:

:glare:

[Chris Porter]

I hadn't really meant it to turn into: Itzabeen, innocuous tool or PURE EVIL...sorry about that. I was mostly just FYIng CC with the whole bit about the flame wars, sort of letting her know the lay of the land out there amongst the peoples.

My niece and her mother (my sister) are single women who need to work and provide whilst raising this child. There is no other duty help. Anything that can help them set positive routines is useful, I think. And it's not a matter of just letting the child squeal and then checking the clock to see what was done last, it can be a preventative as well, used to make sure healthy routines are monitored and kept up, too. When was that last feeding? Should I be getting ready for the next one? And so on. You folks seem to approach this as if it's only good for a response to events, not a planner to the next event. It can be both.

It's 4 x 2.5 and has a large spring clip on the back.

[livius drusus]

It's like a baby iPod. :aww:

[LadyShea]

Hey Chris, as I explained my criticisms are completely based on my emotional attachment to my chosen parenting philosophy. I should have kept my mouth shut after my initial "I don't get it" post.

My having a negative emotional reaction to it says nothing about it's usefulness for others or in general. I am just as full of my own shit as anyone ;)

[Clutch Munny]

I should have kept my mouth shut after my initial "I don't get it" post.

Say what?

Why? You made some good points. I was edified. What you need to shut up about is this "I should have shut up" shit. I mean, shut up.

[LadyShea]

Well, because I hate it when it is done to me. I have had to justify so many parenting choices to well meaning (but just plain wrong ;)) friends and family, and here I am criticizing others choices. Bit hypocritical of me.

I have no problem making my points and discussing the issues, I obviously feel I have very good reasons for the choices I have made, I just don't know that how I did it in this thread, or even that I did it in this thread, is/was appropriate.

[Clutch Munny]

Again, fair enough. Remember how I derailed a thread about spanking by remarking that I try not to shout at my kids? Child-rearing does excite conversation!

[Julie]

It sure does excite conversations. And I do totally understand where LS is coming from. We are not "Main stream" parents and in general we get all kinds of unasked for advice from the general population (WE being AP parents in general) we constantly have to justify our choices, to family to friends, to Joe Blow on the street. It can and does make one defensive. (It gets easier as the kids get older though! people stop asking "Does she sleep through the night?" "Shes not sleeping in your bed still is she?")

Plus we are very emotionally attached to our parenting style and have very deep reactions.

My honest reaction to this device was horror and dismay. I know that for a smart intelligent person this device could be a handy tool. I also know that the smart intelligent among us don't usually breed.

[livius drusus]

Well, I think it's a neat, helpful tool for all kinds of people, and I don't see why it has to turn into a judgment on people's intelligence or parenting skills or style or what have you.

Chris, I hope your niece and sister find it helps them with their hectic schedules. Please do report back on how it was received, if you get a chance. :)

[Chris Porter]

Well, I think it's a neat, helpful tool for all kinds of people, and I don't see why it has to turn into a judgment on people's intelligence or parenting skills or style or what have you.

Chris, I hope your niece and sister find it helps them with their hectic schedules. Please do report back on how it was received, if you get a chance. :)

I hope they do too, though I'm unlikely to hear anything from them about it.

[livius drusus]

Why is that? Perhaps you should send them the flaming diaper bag instead, then. :giggles:

[Chris Porter]

Why is that? Perhaps you should send them the flaming diaper bag instead, then. :giggles:

I don't get on well with my sister, our values are different enough to make communication difficult.

[livius drusus]

That's a shame, Chris. It's very thoughtful of you to get her and her daughter something despite your differences.