A new level of absurdity...

[Shelli]

Who dreams up this shit? :crazy:

Smile... Or Else! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20298840/site/newsweek/?gt1=10252) :police:

"Aug. 16, 2007 - It was bound to happen. Now even a frown or grimace can get you into trouble with The Man.

“Specially trained security personnel” will be watching passengers for “micro-expressions” that will reveal treacherous agendas and insidious intentions at airports around the country. These agents, who may literally hold your fate in their hands have been given a lofty, Orwellian name: "Behavior Detection Officers."

Did anyone ever doubt that George Orwell’s prophecies in “1984” would arrive? In that novel, he wrote, “You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.”

In the study of “micro-expressions”—yes, it is actually a field of study and there are some who are arrogant enough to call it a science—it has been decided that when people wish to conceal emotions, the truth of their feelings is revealed in facial flashes. These experts have determined that fear and disgust are the key things to look for because they can hint of deception.

Let’s see, fear and disgust in an airport? I’m frightened and disgusted weeks before I have to show up at an airport. In fact, I’ve pretty much sworn off the whole idea of going anywhere by airplane. It’s bad enough that I might be trapped in a crowded plane with no food or water and nonworking toilets for hours; now there are security agents interpreting our facial expressions. The face police, in place at more than a dozen U.S. airports already, aren’t identified as such. But the watcher could be at curbside baggage, the ticket counter or near the metal detectors and X-ray machines. The Transportation Security Administration hopes to have as many as 500 Behavior Detection Officers on the job by the end of 2008."

[Abdul Alhazred]

Oooh oooh!

In Orwell's 1984 there is a passing mention of facecrime.

:yup:

[Uthgar the Brazen]

If they're just looking for flashes of disgust, then I'll be fine. I'm scowling from the moment I get in the car to drive to the airport, and it doesn't stop until I'm away from the destination airport.

[California Tanker]

If properly trained, I would think that it's a far more effective tool than simple racial discrimination or generic screening.

The Israelis have been doing this sort of thing at their airports for some time, reportedly they're good at it. Similarly, many bodyguards (and the Secret Service) rely as much on the mannerisms of those they observe as anything else: If they can't screen everyone with metal/bomb detectors, and they can't react faster than someone, they need some way of getting an advantage.

We all know that airport security as it stands is questionable because it is standardised and regimented. I think this is a step in the right direction to make it actually a somewhat effective proposition, instead of a simple 'feel-good' measure.

NTM

[Adam]

TSA head Kip Hawley mentioned the program a while ago in an interview here (http://www.schneier.com/interview-hawley.html).

I did a bit of googling after I originally read that interview, and I don't see any indication that behavioral profiling is obviously pseudoscience. Assuming these techniques have a success rate greater than chance, and they're less intrusive than the full body cavity search that airport security lines have been turning into, and less biased and ineffective than racial profiling, I don't see a problem.

The Orwell allusions are kind of silly, IMO. No one is being arrested for illegal thoughts, or told to "Smile....or Else!" Certain involuntary tics are simply being used as markers that a person might warrant further investigation. I much prefer that to using things like ethnic background to mark someone for further investigation.

As an aside, this bit from one of the TSA pres releases linked in that interview cracked me up:

In White's ticket jacket, an airport police officer found a note written on a folded bank deposit slip. Asking Hanson's help in deciphering the handwriting, Hanson made out that it was a hold-up note stating that the note holder had a gun.

They 'made out' a hold-up note? How incompetent do you have to be to write an illegible hold-up note?

[Uthgar the Brazen]

We all know that airport security as it stands is questionable because it is standardised and regimented. I think this is a step in the right direction to make it actually a somewhat effective proposition, instead of a simple 'feel-good' measure.

NTM

Are you out of your fucking head? Seriously. I'm going to be subjected to the whims of a minimum-wage lackey who might be having a bad day her/himself and consequently decides to fuck with the hoi polloi. From what fucking universe is this bullshit considered good? And do you wear a goatee?

:stoopid:

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

he does drive a tank :)

lame. why do people have to make the real world worse to stop the imaginary one from harming them?

oh yes, i know...the threat is real...9/11...blah blah fucking blah...

[Nullifidian]

Are you out of your fucking head? Seriously. I'm going to be subjected to the whims of a minimum-wage lackey who might be having a bad day her/himself and consequently decides to fuck with the hoi polloi. From what fucking universe is this bullshit considered good? And do you wear a goatee?

:stoopid:

Sadly, the whims of a minimum-wage lackey describes the way in which airports operate in the US already.

I was once patted down, had my luggage tested for bomb residue, etc. all because of the t-shirt I was wearing. Did it say "I :heart: Osama bin Laden"? "Have Bomb, Will Travel"? "Kiss Me, I'm a Terrorist"?

No, none of the above. It said "¡Viva la evolución!" (https://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?op=article&article_id=906349&p=1) with a picture of Cornelius from The Planet of the Apes in a beret, with long hair, like the totemic picture of Che Guevara. I thought it was just a funny t-shirt. But apparently it made me a presumptive terrorist, who was going to commit an atrocity on a flight from...Kansas City to San Diego. Seriously, is there anything on that flightpath that's worth attacking?

[wei yau]

Echoing CT and Adam, I don't think this is such a bad thing. Certainly using behavior cues has to be more reliable than mere ethnic profiling or using a simple names list.

Of course, the devil is in the details and the training for the TSA personnel should be good enough. But, in and of itself, I don't see this as a problem.

[Ari]

If Alkayduh was as smart as the administration makes them out to be (which I don't buy) I think they would be planning a ground based attack on one of the many seriously unprotected areas in the US, while sending a few incompetent lackeys into airports every so often to freak the government out, not only causing them to waste money on stupid stuff like this but to bolster those that want to terrorize their own people under the guise of airport security.

I wonder how long till people fear airport security more than they do terrorist attacks.

Edit to add: If those running the show had shown they are at least competent in security and the government didn't appear to enjoy stomping on peoples rights when it suited them I might be more inclined to think this was a good idea.

[viscousmemories]

How incompetent do you have to be to write an illegible hold-up note?
At least dumb enough to rob a bank, presumably.

[California Tanker]

At least dumb enough to rob a bank, presumably

Also dumb enough to not only go through security with the hold-up note, but also with your crack pipe. "I wonder if I'll attract attention?"

Seriously. I'm going to be subjected to the whims of a minimum-wage lackey who might be having a bad day her/himself and consequently decides to fuck with the hoi polloi.

FWIW... The basic, bottom-ranked screener here in the Bay Area is paid about $14 an hour.

More to the point, though, not everyone in the field in TSA is a bottom-ranked person. There's everyone from people who think Wal-Mart greeter is a great job to persons who have made public safety their life work. The previous Chief of San Francisco's police now runs TSA at Oakland Airport, for example.

While it is true that you don't exactly get a warm fuzzy from the chap waving you through the metal detector, and those are the people you tend to interface with most, that's not going to automatically mean that every person TSA employs at an airport or railway station is of such a calibre.

From what fucking universe is this bullshit considered good?

Even without training, the concept is considered valid. If it's night, you see a guy in a beat-up Oldsmobile sitting across the street from you, perhaps looking often at the house opposite whose owners are away on vacation, aren't you going to give him a little more attention than you would otherwise give someone?

And do you wear a goatee?

I tried growing a full beard once, it wasn't pretty. Besides, the Army prohibits beards: It prevents proper functioning of protective masks.

NTM

[Adam]

Even without training, the concept is considered valid. If it's night, you see a guy in a beat-up Oldsmobile sitting across the street from you, perhaps looking often at the house opposite whose owners are away on vacation, aren't you going to give him a little more attention than you would otherwise give someone?

A minor nitpick...the beat up Olds is an irrelevant detail. The idea is that you'd be suspicious of someone behaving that way if they were driving a beat up Olds or a brand new BMW.

[ShottleBop]

The Naked Face (http://www.gladwell.com/2002/2002_08_05_a_face.htm)

[JoeP]

Terrorists will now turn to botox.

[ceptimus]

The queues at airports are so fucking long now that they become a terrorist target in themselves. The prospective suicide bomber doesn't even have to get as far as the face police - he can just detonate and take out a few hundred people while he's in the security-caused queue.

Once this happens, the authorities will have to set up new security screens that check people who are queueing to join the queue - and so on until (hopefully) the security people all disappear up their own arses.

[Shelli]

:lol: @ JoeP & cep

[ms_ann_thrope]

The queues at airports are so fucking long now that they become a terrorist target in themselves. The prospective suicide bomber doesn't even have to get as far as the face police - he can just detonate and take out a few hundred people while he's in the security-caused queue.LOL, sounds like you've recently been to Terminal 3 at Heathrow... :shudder:

[California Tanker]

Re: Heathrow queue. Why the hell didn't I photograph it when I was there?

Oh.. because it was so long I wouldn't have been able to get it all into one picture.

NTM

[Ensign Steve]

I wonder how long till people fear airport security more than they do terrorist attacks.
Too late.

Re: Heathrow queue. Why the hell didn't I photograph it when I was there?

Because security would have thrown your ass out if you tried.

[Nullifidian]

I wonder how long till people fear airport security more than they do terrorist attacks.
Too late.

No kidding! I'm already changing my sartorial choices based on what the idiots in airport security will use to find cause to detain me. If I ever go back to the Middle East (and I would like to), I can well imagine that with my luck I'd have an accident with what I was wearing, my bags already checked, and then I'd have to buy a t-shirt somewhere which would, of course, be in Arabic.

Then I would have the sort of experience Raed Jarrar faced. Hell, they might even decide that a quick kidnap and flight to Guantanamo is less embarrassing than a lawsuit next time. (Video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=x7ww13jYo6Y) and a text account (http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/2006/08/back-from-mideast.html))

[California Tanker]

Chap on the airplane back from Austria via LHR had a T-Shirt saying "I am a Muslim. Don't panic!"

He had no problems that I noticed. Not saying that there aren't over-reactions, of course, but weren't people on this very board saying that over-reactions made for sound business decisions (in this case not alienating many passengers) are appropriate?

NTM

[curses]

Oddly enough I watched something on facial expressions last night, hosted by John Cleese. The micro expressions bit was interesting, they said that the only people in the country with a chance to be able to decipher these was CIA/FBI. They are apparently teaching police officers how to pick up on these expressions, and that's sort of scary.

[Clutch Munny]

weren't people on this very board saying that over-reactions made for sound business decisions (in this case not alienating many passengers) are appropriate?

NTM

I don't think anyone made that general (and quite ridiculous) claim. Now, if you can make the case that there is roughly the same moral imperative to distribute latex balloons as there is to avoid racial or religious persecution, then you'll have shown an internal tension in the views of someone who says both "No big deal that Tesco forbade latex balloons" and "Airlines shouldn't harass or deny service to Muslims".

[seebs]

Well, that scotches air travel for me, pretty much. I don't have normal mannerisms or behaviors.

[Nullifidian]

Chap on the airplane back from Austria via LHR had a T-Shirt saying "I am a Muslim. Don't panic!"

He had no problems that I noticed. Not saying that there aren't over-reactions, of course, but weren't people on this very board saying that over-reactions made for sound business decisions (in this case not alienating many passengers) are appropriate?

NTM

No, people were saying that it was no big deal, and a defensible business solution, that Tesco's wasn't handing out latex baloons to all and sundry. I don't think you'll find anyone on this earth who advocates universal overreaction as a sound business model. Secondly, you're assuming the Tesco's thing is an overreaction. That is disputable.

And as to alienating passengers, in the U.S. Muslims are, on average, wealthier and more educated than the national average. And many Arab Muslims travel with some regularity, not just to Mecca but also to see their friends and family. This is a demographic you don't want to alienate. Plus there's also the alienation factor for people like me who are not Muslim but who don't want to Fly the Xenophobic Skies. I have books in Arabic, and I'd feel a great deal better if I were able to crack one open without having to worry about being thrown off my flight. I already had to justify buying a volume of Abu Nuwas' complete poetry to U.S. Customs, and I don't fancy doing it for the TSA as well.

[Angakuk]

I already had to justify buying a volume of Abu Nuwas' complete poetry to U.S. Customs, and I don't fancy doing it for the TSA as well.

It is a wonder that they let you import such subversive and pornographic literature, surely as dangerous as an instruction manual on bomb making. Anyway, it is clear that anything written in Arabic must be considered suspicious. Why would they write with all those strange and incomprehensible characters if they weren't trying to conceal something? If they had nothing to hide they would write in English like a white man.

[Ari]

It's not as much about over or under reaction but how much leway I'm willing to give to an organization.
In this case the TSA/gov has shown it's not competent enough to know the difference between a terrorist and a child with the same or similar name or and they might just interrogate people with a similar name (you would think if they were really serious about catching terrorists they would add a small description along with the name). Which is only one example. In that case, why should I want to allow them to grab people because they "looked funny."?

Perhaps the TSA can show some competence in basic procedures first and then we can give them the special magic weapons.

[livius drusus]

Not to mention that I don't have a Constitutional right to balloon animals, whereas I'm pretty sure there's something in there somewhere about reasonable search and seizure.

[Watser?]

No kidding! I'm already changing my sartorial choices based on what the idiots in airport security will use to find cause to detain me. If I ever go back to the Middle East (and I would like to), I can well imagine that with my luck I'd have an accident with what I was wearing, my bags already checked, and then I'd have to buy a t-shirt somewhere which would, of course, be in Arabic.

Then I would have the sort of experience Raed Jarrar faced. Hell, they might even decide that a quick kidnap and flight to Guantanamo is less embarrassing than a lawsuit next time. (Video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=x7ww13jYo6Y) and a text account (http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/2006/08/back-from-mideast.html))

Well, that scotches air travel for me, pretty much. I don't have normal mannerisms or behaviors.

Oh wow. Neither have I. Plus I have shirts with stuff in Arabic (even one with Arabic AND Hebrew). I would be so fucked (eh, and possibly even literally...).

[Adam]

It's not as much about over or under reaction but how much leway I'm willing to give to an organization...why should I want to allow them to grab people because they "looked funny."?

Perhaps the TSA can show some competence in basic procedures first and then we can give them the special magic weapons.

But the TSA already has the authority to investigate or detain people who act in a suspicious manner. As far as I'm able to determine, this doesn't give them any new authority, it just provides better training.

[Adam]

Well, that scotches air travel for me, pretty much. I don't have normal mannerisms or behaviors.

I kinda wonder what the exact tells they're being trained to look for are. I have a couple of unusual tics myself, and I'm curious as to whether or not they'd mark me as suspicious. Of course, every time I've been randomly selected for a full search, I've gotten through security much faster than the people standing in the longer line for regular searches.

[Angakuk]

Random my ass.

[viscousmemories]

Plus I have shirts with stuff in Arabic (even one with Arabic AND Hebrew). I would be so fucked (eh, and possibly even literally...).
Literally? Sweet. Where can I get some t-shirts with Arabic on 'em?

[Nullifidian]

Plus I have shirts with stuff in Arabic (even one with Arabic AND Hebrew). I would be so fucked (eh, and possibly even literally...).
Literally? Sweet. Where can I get some t-shirts with Arabic on 'em?

Well, if you wanted the one that sparked off this whole nonsense, you could e-mail (spoiler to defeat spambots):

wewillnotbesilent [at] gmail [dot] com

I have one myself, and the Iraq Veterans Against the War also have them, with Iraq Veterans Against the War on the sleeve, although I'm not sure if that's not supposed to be exclusive to IVAW members.

[Nullifidian]

It is a wonder that they let you import such subversive and pornographic literature, surely as dangerous as an instruction manual on bomb making. Anyway, it is clear that anything written in Arabic must be considered suspicious. Why would they write with all those strange and incomprehensible characters if they weren't trying to conceal something? If they had nothing to hide they would write in English like a white man.

I'm sure the theocrats think so, and when they finally take over entirely, I'd probably be burned at the stake for reading terrorist material (everything in Arabic is de facto terrorist material) that was genuinely pornographic.

Abu Nuwas is the best of the Classical Arab poets, but he focused on ribald humourous verses (mujuniyyat), wine songs (khamriyyat) and verses praising homosexual sex (mudhakkarat). Needless to say, he's not on bin Laden's Top of the Pops, which is exactly what I said to the two suits who showed up at my door.

And apparently I'm not the only person this has happened to (http://www.juancole.com/2005/12/bushist-police-state-and-interlibrary.html). The reason Juan Cole told the story of his engineer acquaintance is false, but the story he tells his true. Apparently there are no speakers of Arabic to read these titles and tell them what they mean. It seems a remarkable waste of manpower and money to send agents to check into innocuous Arabic works just "to make sure they don't pose a danger to the United States", as it was explained to me.

But nobody in government ever went to jail for wasting money as long as every dime wasted is properly accounted for.

[Crumb]

spoiler to defeat spambots
spoiler will not defeat spambots :unnope:

[Abdul Alhazred]

Sorry folks.

Teasing the crowds at the airport about terrorism is not acceptable. Nor is freaking out the mundanes. Not about terrorism, not a the airport.

It's testing who you can frighten and then pretend it was just a joke.

In fact as early as the 1970s you'd get in big trouble for "kidding around" like that.

The difference is the number of assholes who think it's funny has become much larger for some reason. As have the number of people who will defend it.

[Adam]

Who the fuck said anything about 'teasing' the crowds at airports? The only thign here that even remotely sounds like that is vm's question about where he can find some Arabic t shirts, and I'm pretty sure that was in response to the claim that he'd literally be "so fucked" if he wore one, the dirty bastard.

[Nullifidian]

Who the fuck said anything about 'teasing' the crowds at airports? The only thign here that even remotely sounds like that is vm's question about where he can find some Arabic t shirts, and I'm pretty sure that was in response to the claim that he'd literally be "so fucked" if he wore one, the dirty bastard.

I'm wondering if it's in response to me and the t-shirt I wore. The t-shirt, however, is not a terrorism joke, it's a Planet of the Apes joke. And I doubt that the real Cuban terrorists who commit atrocities that bring down planes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_Flight_455) would be caught dead wearing a t-shirt like that, since they're anti-Castro fanatics.

Now I did joke here about t-shirts that might cause some genuine suspicion, but FF is not an airport.

Raed Jarrar (the other person held up at an airport by security) wasn't joking either. He had just gotten back from visiting Lebanese refugee camps. No doubt his outrage at what Israel was doing with British and U.S. backing in Lebanon was the reason behind his choice of t-shirt. Therefore it is not a terroristic statement, but a political one, which is protected speech.

[Watser?]

The Arabic T-shirts I have are of an Egyptian beer :D and an Israeli peace group. Hard to see how either has anything to do with supporting terrorism.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

The Arabic T-shirts I have are of an Egyptian beer :D and an Israeli peace group. Hard to see how either has anything to do with supporting terrorism.

Well, the Israelis are kinda like white people, so that's not supporting terrorism. I dunno about that Egyptian beer stuff, though. Sounds like a front for something. :noid:

[California Tanker]

Therefore it is not a terroristic statement, but a political one, which is protected speech.

I think an argument can be made akin that (though unfortunate), making a political statement in Arabic at an American airport is akin to shouting 'fire' in a movie theatre or 'bomb' at security. It's not going to be an unfettered right.

Whilst I think being told to cover it up is excessive, expecting not to receive extra attention is also unrealistic.

NTM

[Nullifidian]

Therefore it is not a terroristic statement, but a political one, which is protected speech.

I think an argument can be made akin that (though unfortunate), making a political statement in Arabic at an American airport is akin to shouting 'fire' in a movie theatre or 'bomb' at security. It's not going to be an unfettered right.

Whilst I think being told to cover it up is excessive, expecting not to receive extra attention is also unrealistic.

NTM

So to complete the analogy, wearing this t-shirt is to shout "Arab!" on a crowded plane, which will cause a panicked rush to the airplane door. And some people wonder why I don't like flying.

Where is it to end? If I wore a shirt which said "Bush ist ein Arschloch", would that be deemed an 'inappropriate use' of free speech? Or would it be passed because it's a European language? What about in P(F)arsi? It's not Arabic, but it has adopted the Arabic script. Or what if I brought my copy of Diwan Abi Nuwas (The Complete Poetry of Abu Nuwas), or any other book I have in Arabic? They're all harmless stuff, but would it be banned? And what would happen to it? Would I be forced to give up the offending book, or put it with the checked luggage in the airplane? Are other scripts the jingoists can't read banned too, like Kanji or Cyrillic?

The lawsuit he's pursuing is not about the extra security, it is about being ordered to remove his shirt, cover it up, or whatever, and still being allowed to board the plane. In other words, they were confident enough that he wasn't a terrorist, but apparently the mere sight of Arabic script will cause other, entirely innocently-intentioned people, to become slavering, suicidal terrorists. It sounds like the premise of a B movie at a midnight matinee.

[California Tanker]

So to complete the analogy, wearing this t-shirt is to shout "Arab!" on a crowded plane, which will cause a panicked rush to the airplane door

Yep. We're not that far apart. I lamented the harassment of someone minding his own business whilst doing something unpopular yet legal on this thread.

Where's the "Probable Cause" here? - Freethought Forum (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13445)

NTM

[viscousmemories]

Really? I thought he was arrested for disorderly conduct, which isn't legal.

[California Tanker]

It's only disorderly because it caused discomfort amongst those around him. Same difference here.

NTM

[Nullifidian]

Really? I thought he was arrested for disorderly conduct, which isn't legal.

If you're talking about Raed Jarrar, he wasn't. His full account of events is available at his blog here:

Raed in the Middle: back from the mideast (http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/2006/08/back-from-mideast.html)

[viscousmemories]

No, sorry Nullifidian. I was talking about the character in CT's link, who was arrested for disorderly conduct because a neighbor complained about his walking down a residential street carrying an semi-automatic rifle. For some odd reason Tank thinks that wearing a t-shirt with Arabic text at an airport is akin to carrying a rifle down a public street, and thinks the cops should pay close attention to the former and ignore the latter. He's kooky that way.

[Clutch Munny]

That Arab writing could go off at any moment, and it has a lethal range of up to two miles.

[Adam]

No, sorry Nullifidian. I was talking about the character in CT's link, who was arrested for disorderly conduct because a neighbor complained about his walking down a residential street carrying an semi-automatic rifle. For some odd reason Tank thinks that wearing a t-shirt with Arabic text at an airport is akin to carrying a rifle down a public street, and thinks the cops should pay close attention to the former and ignore the latter. He's kooky that way.

If I'm reading CT right, he believes that the cops should ignore both.

[California Tanker]

No, sorry Nullifidian. I was talking about the character in CT's link, who was arrested for disorderly conduct because a neighbor complained about his walking down a residential street carrying an semi-automatic rifle. For some odd reason Tank thinks that wearing a t-shirt with Arabic text at an airport is akin to carrying a rifle down a public street, and thinks the cops should pay close attention to the former and ignore the latter. He's kooky that way.

If I'm reading CT right, he believes that the cops should ignore both.

A cookie for Adam.

NTM

[viscousmemories]

Adam: :cookie:

[California Tanker]

According to the paper today (copied into the TSA's daily propoganda sheet), the pilot BDOs have referred 40,000 persons for additional screening since the programme started in 2006, of which over 300 were subsequently arrested.

That's actually a pretty decent hit rate.

NTM

[Dingfod]

<1%?

[California Tanker]

Consider that SFO handles over 100,000 passengers a day. Would you not raise an eyebrow if 700 people were removed from the airport in handcuffs in one day? That's the hit rate we're talking about here.

NTM

[Dingfod]

That's a fuckin' parade, man.