Librarians for Fairness

[Lionello]

It's a much-needed organization! Please visit the website:
Librarians for Fairness: When librarians censor the truth, change at our libraries is overdue. (http://www.librariansforfairness.org)

[But]

Mmm.. librarians

:homdrool:

[viscousmemories]

I am skeptical that there is any significant anti-Israel bias in American libraries, so I don't see why this is a "much-needed organization".

[Watser?]

:airquote:Anti-Israeli bias?:airquote:

:hahaha:

[Shelli]

:spamhammer:

hmmm.. now I'm hungry, but not for Spam. :gross:

[viscousmemories]

I did some looking and found out that LibrariansForFairness is run by a "pro-Israel advocacy group" called "StandWithUs", which is also known as the "Israel Emergency Alliance". As far as I can tell their platform is that the nation of Israel is under a grave threat from the existence of Palenstinians, and Americans are being brainwashed to believe the opposite. Or something.

[Watser?]

From 'the existence of Palestinians'?

So the solution is ending the existence of said Palestinians?

[Clutch Munny]

It does sound extreme, but hey, those Palestinians boil and eat their own children!

Or rather, the strict veracity of that statement isn't the issue, since I hear tell they do other really awful things.

[SharonDee]

Anti-Israel, Shmanti-Israel ... my local library is biased against atheism. When I put it in as a keyword, I get two books about how atheism is bankrupt or some such. Both are by the same author, some guy I never heard of.

All of which is why I wuz stoopid and clicked that link. :doh:

[Blake]

Ah, the classic appeal to a universal principle as a facade for a narrow, extremist viewpoint. It's almost retro!

[Ari]

My library is biased against noise, and as you all know noise is another term for speech. Please bring free speech back to our libraries.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

jewish librarians run the world bank.

[Lionello]

Google search such articles as "Librarians for Terror" by Lee Kaplan, "Lies in the Library" by Andrea Levin, "Librarians Against Israel: The Outrage Continues" by George Baker, "Librarians Against Israel" by George Baker, Our Israel-Bashing Libraries" by N. Leonard Tolkan, " an article by a writer-librarian named Andrea Rapp (which was published in Reform Judaism magazine a few years ago), "A Library's Middle East" (which dicusses a viciously biased program in an Iowa public Library), etc.

[godfry n. glad]

Proving once again that librarians, like so many others, are merely lickspittle sycophants to the elite who cut their paychecks. Free speech is an empty phrase made to help the peons feel better about their abject dependence upon handouts from those in control. They demand obesiance and enforce it with a pink slip to economic purgatory. Those who write or say the wrong thing, in turn or out, become exemplars for discretion. Librarians are merely windowdressing.

[Lionello]

To Watser, nobody at all said anything about ending their existence. However, the charter's of Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, et al., do call for ending the existence of Israel...i.e. politicide...the murder of a nation. And if that happens, I doubt if there will be an occupation. They don't plan to leave any of Israel's Jews (also Israeli Christians & Druze) alive.

[Lionello]

What I like about LfF is that it is NOT politically correct.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

Proving once again that librarians, like so many others, are merely lickspittle sycophants to the elite who cut their paychecks. Free speech is an empty phrase made to help the peons feel better about their abject dependence upon handouts from those in control. They demand obesiance and enforce it with a pink slip to economic purgatory. Those who write or say the wrong thing, in turn or out, become exemplars for discretion. Librarians are merely windowdressing.

sweet! kicking some librarian ass :D

[Watser?]

To Watser, nobody at all said anything about ending their existence. However, the charter's of Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, et al., do call for ending the existence of Israel...i.e. politicide...the murder of a nation. And if that happens, I doubt if there will be an occupation. They don't plan to leave any of Israel's Jews (also Israeli Christians & Druze) alive.
Go peddle your hate-mongering elsewhere. There are Christians in the Palestinian territories too, there are even Palestinian Jews (not to mention that the 'Israeli Christians & Druze' ARE Palestinians. This is a total bullshit accusation based on nothing.

Fatah/the PLO have removed the calls for ending the existence of Israel a long time ago and what they wanted to replace it with was a secular state.
The PLO (including Fatah, the PFLP and the DFLP) have long accepted a two-state solution. It is Israel however that is actively sabotaging the possibility. It won't be long before the Palestinians realise they are much better off demanding Israeli citizenship instead of living in a tuisland.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

i think godfry got to the real problem...

[Watser?]

Piss off Michael, you're on ignore anyway.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

lol :)

[livius drusus]

What I like about LfF is that it is NOT politically correct.
Meaning what, precisely? Who stipulates what political position is correct and in what way is this organization going contrary to that position?

[Nullifidian]

Can I have some of this anti-Israel bias in my local library?

I'm looking for selected texts that I should expect to find here if my local library had an anti-Israel bias, which is used by partisans to indicate anyone who breathes a word of criticism of Israel that isn't in favor of Israel becoming even more ruthless and imperialistic.

Names like Tanya Reinhart, author of Israel/Palestine.

I can't find it. In fact, there's only one Tanya Reinhart book, which looks to be a coffee-table type photography book which will be available in a library which has not completed construction yet.

On the other hand, it's too easy to find Joan Peters' oeuvre.

Perhaps my search should be more theatrical. There's a listing for My Name Is Rachel Corrie, but no holdings for it yet. That means there's not a copy of it in any library in San Diego.

But I can find the utterly crazed Alan Dershowitz in 30 volumes, author of such enlightening tomes as The Case for Israel, plagiarized from Joan Peters, and The Case for Torture, both of which they have. Apparently the Felix Frankfurter professor of law doesn't believe anymore that torture is wrong, nor does he recognize that prior restraint is wrong, given his efforts to stop publication on Beyond Chutzpah by Norman Finkelstein, of which there are only two copies in all of San Diego County, and only seven titles overall, making him by far the most well-represented author on the Palestinian side of the issue that I've consulted in my local library's database, including Benny Morris.

How about documentaries? Well, despite the fact that the central library in San Diego has a fairly large videotape collection, with other videos in various branch libraries, none of them has Jenin, Jenin. Nor do they have Stolen Freedom, Wall, Gaza Strip, etc.

So wake me when this anti-Israel bias gets to San Diego, and I might be able to find something to read.

[Nullifidian]

What I like about LfF is that it is NOT politically correct.

Oh, right, because there's such a huge will to resist Israeli colonialism in the United States. That's why the Second Lebanon War was ended by an outpouring of dissent from the United States, including strong condemnation from the Bush administration. No?

Well, then certainly the First Lebanon War was condemned widely in the U.S., especially when it was revealed that they were trying to plant a stalwart admirer of Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler, Bachir Gemayel, in the seat of Lebanon's government. No, again?

And there has been a strong condemnation in the U.S. of the massacres at Qana, Jenin, etc., to say nothing of the historical massacres of Deir Yassin, Kafr Qasim, etc. which have led Israel to become a pariah state in the U.S. based on its history of state-sponsored terrorism (Irgun, the Stern Gang, and so on). No, yet again?

And of course there's no question that Israel receives no material support from the U.S. to continue to occupy Palestinian lands and displace Palestinians. What? We actually subsidize one fifth of their military budget?!

This amazes me. I would have thought from your statement that Israel was practically a taboo word in the United States semantically equivalent with dispossession, war crimes, putsches, and lebensraum. (Which it is...but in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and other nations in the area.)

[Lionello]

Nullfidian,

Does it have the pro-Israeli video, Road to Jenin, which refutes the outright falsifications of Jenin, Jenin? Does it have even one of Pierre Rehov's pro-Israeli films? As for the, terrorist-supporting (she expressed pride in being at a demonstration with thugs from the PFLP), U.S. flag-burning Rachel Corrie, did she care in the slightest that innocent Israeli children might be murdered by weapons smuggled into Gaza from Egypt, via the tunnel she was trying to prevent the IDF from destroying?

And there is a difference between an accident and DELIBERATE MURDER. Where is your sympathy for another idealistic young American woman...librarian Dina Carter, who was deliberately murdered by Hamas terrorists, when they bombed the Frank Sinatra Cafeteria on the Hebrew University campus? Or doesn't she count, because she loved Israel?

Well, I'm not sorry I started something with my original posting!

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

Well, I'm not sorry I started something with my original posting!

why? don't you believe in what you're saying? don't be sorry...

besides, i seriously dug godfry's rant. i like his angle...and how he gets away with it :)

[Watser?]

Nullfidian,

Does it have the pro-Israeli video, Road to Jenin, which refutes the outright falsifications of Jenin, Jenin? Does it have even one of Pierre Rehov's pro-Israeli films? As for the, terrorist-supporting (she expressed pride in being at a demonstration with thugs from the PFLP), U.S. flag-burning Rachel Corrie, did she care in the slightest that innocent Israeli children might be murdered by weapons smuggled into Gaza from Egypt, via the tunnel she was trying to prevent the IDF from destroying?
Ah, I see you have bought into the whole package. Is that the story they are trying to sell now? Rachel Corrie was protecting a house that was being demolished, something the Israelis do on a regular basis, not only in Gaza, but all over the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and in Israel itself too. There is even an Israeli group (ICAHD) (http://www.icahd.org/eng/about.asp?menu=2&submenu=1) decicated to rebuilding these homes (in cooperation with local Palestinian groups who actually manage not to kill them while they are doing that).
And where is your sympathy for the Palestinian children that get murdered with the weapons the Israelis buy using your taxpayer's money? Israel kills way more Palestinian children than the other way around. Here, let me help you out with some statistics: 29.9.2000-15.8.2007
Occupied Territories Israel
Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 4142 61
Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians 41
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians
233 471
Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians
233 87
Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians
17 36
Foreign citizens killed by Israeli security forces
10
Palestinians killed by Palestinians
538

Additional data (included in previous table)
Occupied Territories Israel
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces
845 2
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians
39 80
Statistics from B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp)
847 Palestinan children were killed by the Israelis and 129 Israeli children by the Palestinians. You sir, have a very strange sense of priorities.

And there is a difference between an accident and DELIBERATE MURDER. Where is your sympathy for another idealistic young American woman...librarian Dina Carter, who was deliberately murdered by Hamas terrorists, when they bombed the Frank Sinatra Cafeteria on the Hebrew University campus? Or doesn't she count, because she loved Israel?
There is indeed a difference between an accident and deliberate murder. This was no more an accident than the murder of JFK or Martin Luther King.
So the fact that Hamas murders too gets Israel off the hook for everything they do? In that very attack a very active member of an Israeli peace group (I think it was Women in Black but I am not totally sure) was killed too. That does not stop Women in Black from protesting the occupation though (and they considered her a victim of the occupation).

[Nullifidian]

Nullfidian,

Does it have the pro-Israeli video, Road to Jenin, which refutes the outright falsifications of Jenin, Jenin? Does it have even one of Pierre Rehov's pro-Israeli films?

I didn't check, nor does it matter, since my local library is awash in pro-Israeli literature from all the usual suspects (Peters, Ross, Netanyahu, Dershowitz, etc.), whereas the most represented pro-Palestinian author, Norman Finkelstein, is not even Palestinian and only has seven titles here. The clear tendency, contrary to the silliness at the website you linked to, is to deny Palestinians a native voice.

Not to mention, I'm more interested in reading Tanya Reinhart than I am watching the works of a man who's embittered by his experience of being part of a privileged caste, the pieds-noirs, chased out the country by the Algerian War for Independence. I dare say that gave him a psychological motivation to support attempts to control the 'wogs' "by any means necessary".

As for the, terrorist-supporting (she expressed pride in being at a demonstration with thugs from the PFLP),

There you have it. Being at a demonstration means you support terrorism, as long as it's not supportive of Israel.

U.S. flag-burning

Good.

Rachel Corrie, did she care in the slightest that innocent Israeli children might be murdered by weapons smuggled into Gaza from Egypt, via the tunnel she was trying to prevent the IDF from destroying?

Which never existed. Not even the Israeli government has claimed such a thing existed, and they demonstrated that with actions (or rather lack of actions) by not getting around to destroying Samir and Khaled Nasrallah's home until seven months after Corrie's death, which would be inconceivable if it was thought to be an entry point for smuggled weapons. They claim that the bulldozer was clearing brush, that Corrie impeded its progress, and then she was killed by falling debris, because as we all know sometimes that scrubbrush can be really heavy. In fact, it can even break a person's spine in several places. :rolleyes:

The source for the tunnel story was in Mother Jones, which is a fake-liberal magazine that I have already said here (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=407972#post407972) has staked out a position as the media version of the FBI's COINTELPRO.

And there is a difference between an accident and DELIBERATE MURDER.

Right, and this was nothing like an accident. Kind of pointless to be a human shield when people can't see you, isn't it? :doh:

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again. Despite that, she wasn't dead, but rather hung on for an agonizing several hours.

Where is your sympathy for another idealistic young American woman...librarian Dina Carter, who was deliberately murdered by Hamas terrorists, when they bombed the Frank Sinatra Cafeteria on the Hebrew University campus? Or doesn't she count, because she loved Israel?

I have a great deal of sympathy for her family, since nobody should be expected to deal with the aftermath of violent death in their midst. However, sympathy for her? I view it as equivalent to Native raids on white settlements in the U.S., the bombings of the pieds-noirs carried out in the course of the Algerian War of Independence, and other cases of asymmetrical warfare. Let's not delude ourselves that Israel is anything other than a state built on ethnic cleansing. People who support that, in my view, are culpable. Perhaps not as culpable as the members of Irgun or the Stern Gang, many of whom went on to starred political careers (showing yet again the generalized support for this sort of thing in Israel), but still culpable nonetheless. And please don't come back with some hoary bullshit about "pushing the Jews into the sea", since that is a) a description of exactly what happened to the Arabs of Jaffa and other seaside locales, and b) a two-state solution has been explicitly favored by Palestinians since the First Intifada.

[Watser?]

As for the, terrorist-supporting (she expressed pride in being at a demonstration with thugs from the PFLP), U.S. flag-burning Rachel Corrie
Since you brought up the PFLP as an example of terrorists: the PFLP was one of the first Palestinian groups to accept a two-state solution and they supported the Oslo agreements. They had not been involved in the Second Intifada until their political leader Abu Ali Mustafa was murdered by a rocket fired from an Israeli helicopter when he was in his office. In retaliation they murdered a settler security chief and an Israeli minister. Now how do you want it, were all those murders acts of terrorism or were they all acts of war? Why does Israel go around provoking Palestinians into a response?
If those PFLP members are terrorists then so are the Israeli military. I have seen Israelis literally pick up the pieces of their dead and I have smelled the stench of burnt Palestinians (most of them children, including a two month old), there is no difference between a bomb or missile dropped from the air and one strapped to a bomber, the end result is exactly the same.

[davidm]

From the linked site:

Librarians for Pro-Israel Propaganda

A librarians' association that advocates for pro-Israel propaganda in our libraries

Librarians for Pro-Israel Propaganda is an organization dedicated to bringing pro-Israel propaganda to libraries across the nation and to promoting pro-Israel propaganda. We work to ensure that Israel's propaganda is represented fairly in our libraries through books, periodicals, audiovisuals, online resources, and scheduled events.

:fixed:

[Lionello]

The house had a tunnel under it, used to smuggle weapons! That's a fact. By the way, Watser, not one Palestinian terrorist organization has accepted Israel's right to exist...not one of them, including Abbas' Fatah.

[Angakuk]

Does any nation have a "right to exist"? That nations do exist is a fact. That they have a right to do so is questionable. If such a right exists, how, and under what authority, is it established?

[Lionello]

For more data about Rachel Corrie, I recommend the Rachel Corrie Facts website Rachel Corrie Facts (http://www.rachelcorriefacts.org)

The tragedy is that Rachel Corrie threw her own life away in the service of evil...in the service of terrorism. What an awful waste!

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

Does any nation have a "right to exist"? That nations do exist is a fact. That they have a right to do so is questionable. If such a right exists, how, and under what authority, is it established?

well said!

[Angakuk]

You mean "well asked" don't you? It was not an assertion of fact. It was a question, and not an entirely rhetorical one at that. I would be very interested in seeing a defense of the rights of nations. One that does not rely upon an argument from force.

[yguy]

Let's not delude ourselves that Israel is anything other than a state built on ethnic cleansing.How is it that such a state manages to have a population which is one-fifth Arab? And how exactly do you figure giving Arabs voting rights and the right to representation in the Knesset serves the purpose of ethnic cleansing?

[Angakuk]

Let's not delude ourselves that Israel is anything other than a state built on ethnic cleansing.How is it that such a state manages to have a population which is one-fifth Arab? And how exactly do you figure giving Arabs voting rights and the right to representation in the Knesset serves the purpose of ethnic cleansing?

Ask any homemaker. The cleaning is never done.

[CaDan]

For more data about Rachel Corrie, I recommend the Rachel Corrie Facts website <spam>

The tragedy is that Rachel Corrie threw her own life away in the service of evil...in the service of terrorism. What an awful waste!

A troll and a poli-spammer. Gosh, we're all impressed.

[Angakuk]

For more data about Rachel Corrie, I recommend the Rachel Corrie Facts website <spam>

The tragedy is that Rachel Corrie threw her own life away in the service of evil...in the service of terrorism. What an awful waste!

A troll and a poli-spammer. Gosh, we're all impressed.

Well, it hasn't taken long for Lionello to get tagged as a troll and a spammer. Honestly, I am confused by this. He has posted links to a couple of websites that have instantly been labled as spam. Why, I haven't a clue. They are not commercial websites and he does not appear to be trying sell a product or solicit money. Obviously, his posts have a political agenda, but that is hardly grounds for calling him names. He has responded to posts criticizing his position and has done so politely and with arguments intended to support his position. Whether or not the arguments are particularly compelling is pretty irrelevant. So, help me out here guys, why is he a troll and a spammer?

[Nullifidian]

The house had a tunnel under it, used to smuggle weapons! That's a fact.

This 'fact' would be a great deal more impressive if you could provide some substantial physical evidence for it, rather than just ignoring my comments and reiterating your original claim.

By the way, Watser, not one Palestinian terrorist organization has accepted Israel's right to exist...not one of them, including Abbas' Fatah.

Who cares? Israel has never recognized Palestine's "right to exist" either. In fact, it won't even admit that Palestine has borders, leading to maps and textbooks which depict all of the occupied territories as part of Israel, whereas the delineation of the 1967 borders is clear and has never been overruled as a matter of international law.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

You mean "well asked" don't you? It was not an assertion of fact. It was a question, and not an entirely rhetorical one at that. I would be very interested in seeing a defense of the rights of nations. One that does not rely upon an argument from force.


good point. good question. i wait with you...

[Lionello]

Watser, Correct me if I'm, wrong. But from what you wrote, I can conclude that you feel that the murder of Dina Carter, a gentle, scholarly young woman, was fine. I feel sorry for you, Watser.

[Watser?]

The house had a tunnel under it, used to smuggle weapons! That's a fact. By the way, Watser, not one Palestinian terrorist organization has accepted Israel's right to exist...not one of them, including Abbas' Fatah.

That's two lies in one short statement. Either you bought in to those lies completely or you know they are lies. So you could be stupid or you could be a liar, what is it? I'm betting on stupid for the record.

[Watser?]

For more data about Rachel Corrie, I recommend the Rachel Corrie Facts website Rachel Corrie Facts (http://www.rachelcorriefacts.org)

The tragedy is that Rachel Corrie threw her own life away in the service of evil...in the service of terrorism. What an awful waste!
Wow, you guys have got that whole double-speak thing down pat, don't you? Facts means lies spread by the Israelis. Freedom (as in David Horrowitz Freedom Center) means oppression, etc.
The tragedy is that she was deliberately run over by an Israeli buldozer and that her own government sides with her murderers and that you are here defending and denying ethnic cleansing and state terror. I see you carefully ignored the fact (a real fact this time) that about 4 times as many Palestinian children get killed than Israeli children. I'm sure you can come up with an explanation for it.

Let's not delude ourselves that Israel is anything other than a state built on ethnic cleansing.How is it that such a state manages to have a population which is one-fifth Arab? And how exactly do you figure giving Arabs voting rights and the right to representation in the Knesset serves the purpose of ethnic cleansing?
How is it that the US still has some Native Americans left? As soon as they stop being a threat to your total control of the land, you can stop killing and dispersing them. You just refuse to let the people you chased away return so you can keep your majority and pretend to be a democratic state. You refuse to give the ones that stayed behind the right to own land or to 'recognise' their villages.

Watser, Correct me if I'm, wrong. But from what you wrote, I can conclude that you feel that the murder of Dina Carter, a gentle, scholarly young woman, was fine. I feel sorry for you, Watser.
You are a sad little man. I have stated very clearly that I care about the victims on both sides. You on the other hand have refused to even comment on the fact that 4 times as many Palestinian children got killed in the current conflict than Israeli ones. You are completely fine with it, you don't even recognise them, why would you? It's not even as if they are really human, they are terrorists right?
And of course you also skipped the question to what your buddies the Israelis want to do to the remaining Palestinians in the occupied territories.

[Watser?]

Does any nation have a "right to exist"? That nations do exist is a fact. That they have a right to do so is questionable. If such a right exists, how, and under what authority, is it established?

You mean "well asked" don't you? It was not an assertion of fact. It was a question, and not an entirely rhetorical one at that. I would be very interested in seeing a defense of the rights of nations. One that does not rely upon an argument from force.

There is no such right. What nations, or rather states, do is recognise each other's existence, not their 'right to exist'.

The whole thing is just an absurd demand made by the Israelis to disqualify any Palestinian as a potential partner for negotiations and to blackmail the rest of the world into ignoring them too. The question is not and has never been do the Israelis have a right to a state, but do they have the right to exclude millions of Palestinians who were born there and their direct descendants from returning there in order to keep their 'Democratic Jewish State'?

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Ah, the local fucktard population has grown by one over the weekend, I see.

:yawn:

[CaDan]

Well, it hasn't taken long for Lionello to get tagged as a troll and a spammer. Honestly, I am confused by this. He has posted links to a couple of websites that have instantly been labled as spam. Why, I haven't a clue. They are not commercial websites and he does not appear to be trying sell a product or solicit money. Obviously, his posts have a political agenda, but that is hardly grounds for calling him names. He has responded to posts criticizing his position and has done so politely and with arguments intended to support his position. Whether or not the arguments are particularly compelling is pretty irrelevant. So, help me out here guys, why is he a troll and a spammer?

First post was political advocacy.

[seebs]

He's just here to sell us something. That he wants it bought with votes, not money, does not change the fact that he's just here to sell something.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

He's just here to sell us something. That he wants it bought with votes, not money, does not change the fact that he's just here to sell something.


isn't that what pretty much everybody in this section is doing? :chin:

[Nullifidian]

Well, it hasn't taken long for Lionello to get tagged as a troll and a spammer. Honestly, I am confused by this. He has posted links to a couple of websites that have instantly been labled as spam. Why, I haven't a clue. They are not commercial websites and he does not appear to be trying sell a product or solicit money. Obviously, his posts have a political agenda, but that is hardly grounds for calling him names. He has responded to posts criticizing his position and has done so politely and with arguments intended to support his position. Whether or not the arguments are particularly compelling is pretty irrelevant. So, help me out here guys, why is he a troll and a spammer?

When I first saw the original post, I assumed it was spam, since there was no analysis, just a "visit this site" link. I only responded after he had made another post.

Now I wouldn't say he's trolling, per se, although he does share some points in common with a notorious neocon troll on these boards (changing the direction of conversation in order to evade rebuttals, making up strawmen, relying on bald assertions as if they were evidence, etc.). I would say, rather, that he's stuck in his belief in the infallibility of Israel and that he just can't see why we might dispute that.

I don't fault people for calling the original link spam, because that's what it looked like, but since he did respond, however unsatisfactorily, I agree that's not fair to tag him as a troll quite yet.

[Clutch Munny]

I think it's fair. The complete failure to even acknowledge countervailing arguments is a a major factor.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

he's not a troll...just came in wrong.

and on the wrong side...

[But]

:sobbing:

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

there there...nothing to cry about.

(you changed your reply...originally it had you shedding the tears)

[biochemgirl]

For some reason I kept reading the title as "Libertarians for Fairness".

[Clutch Munny]

Llamatarians for Fairness?

[biochemgirl]

Now that is something I can get behind! :giggle:

[yguy]

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again.You're a God damned liar.

[Lionello]

Here's what the very well-researched Rachel Corrie Facts website has to say:

"According to a witness, Rachel slipped as she moved in front of the bulldozer, fell in front of the slow moving blade and was crushed by unearthed debris. An investigation, which included extensive interrogation of the driver and his commanders, using polygraphs and video evidence, revealed that the driver's view had been obstructed by the debris and by the bulldozer’s protective driver cage. An autopsy confirmed that the bulldozer had not touched Rachel."

[Blake]

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again.You're a God damned liar.Why would you say that? I know her cousin from antiwar protests. Leftwing activist circles are pretty small, sadly.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again.You're a God damned liar.

i don't know if i would go that far, but i do think the story of her being run over intentionally is totally bullshit.

she was a fool to stand in the way of that bulldozer. she did nothing to create change and just strengthened a divide. nothing changed because of her actions. that said, i do feel bad for her family...unless they financed her being there.

i know wiki is a lame source, but the article on her seems pretty fair and presents both sides...

Rachel Corrie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie)

[Nullifidian]

The claim of the “operational investigation” that Corrie was not killed by a bulldozer is directly contradicted by the findings of the final autopsy report, conducted only four days after Corrie’s death released on April 24 at Israel’s National Center of Forensic Medicine. The author of the autopsy report stated:“Based on the results of the autopsy which I performed on the body of RACHEL ALIENE CORRIE, age 24, I hereby express my opinion that her death was caused by pressure on the chest (mechanical asphyxiation) with fractures of the ribs and vertebrae of the dorsal spinal column and scapulas, and tear wounds in the right lung with hemorrhaging of the pleural cavities.”271

So where does this idea come from that Corrie was just fine from being rolled over by a bulldozer?

Human Rights Watch obtained a copy of the summary of the IDF “operational investigation” into Corrie’s killing. Like other investigation summaries seen by Human Rights Watch, the document is laden with generalities and emotive commentary, and contains major factual errors. Chief among these is the statement that “no signs substantiate assertion that Ms Corrie was run over by a bulldozer,” a statement apparently based on a highly selective interpretation of the preliminary autopsy report.268

Both emphases are mine.

Promoting Impunity: The Israeli Military's Failure to Investigate Wrongdoing: VI: Foreign Pressure: Special Treatment (http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/8.htm)

Your source is feeding you bullshit, and I'm sure there's some better use of yours and our time than to regurgitate it here without fact-checking it first.

Finally, it doesn't really matter if her death was intentional, because it's still murder. In legal systems around the world, a death caused by extreme recklessness in the commission of a crime is still murder. The crimes are the demolition of Palestinian houses, orchards, masajid, its infrastructure, etc. in the Occupied Territories, under Article 53 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Going ahead with a demolition whose illegality is known to you (you being the collective IDF which has been made aware of this fact time and time again) and when you know there are many ISM people around is the kind of extreme recklessness during the commission of a crime that's called murder, when it results in death, every day.

Moshe Nissim, an army reservist during the razing of Jenin, said this:

For three days I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I came, but I gave no one a chance.... Many people were inside houses we started to demolish.... I didn't see with my own eyes people dying under the blade of the D-9, and I didn't see houses falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside those houses.... I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the whole camp down.

Quoted in Derek Gregory's The Colonial Present: Afghanistan, Palestine, and Iraq pgs. 114 and 115 and taken from an interview original granted to Yediot Aharonot

[Nullifidian]

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again.You're a God damned liar.

Okay. Can you provide me with your evidence that I do not know ISM members who were there when Corrie was killed? I'd really love to see it.

Of course, you might be hampered by the fact that you don't know my name, or where I've been, or even if I'm a member of the International Solidarity Movement myself. But a person with such a high opinion of their own honesty that they challenge me to impeach it even while altering my words (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=409915#post409915) :rolleyes: will be able to cough up some evidence tout de suite and would have never made such an accusation without being able to back it up.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

she was reckless. the bulldozer was doing its job, like that job or not.

i am not condoning bulldozing homes, but i don't think her death was murder...just senseless and unfortunate.

[yguy]

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again.You're a God damned liar.

Okay. Can you provide me with your evidence that I do not know ISM members who were there when Corrie was killed?Don't need it. All I need is this:

"Let's not delude ourselves that Israel is anything other than a state built on ethnic cleansing."

[Nullifidian]

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again.You're a God damned liar.

Okay. Can you provide me with your evidence that I do not know ISM members who were there when Corrie was killed?Don't need it. All I need is this:

"Let's not delude ourselves that Israel is anything other than a state built on ethnic cleansing."

Bwahahahahahah!

You're really a piece of work. If you didn't exist, it would be necessary for the liberals to invent you. Fortunately you do exist, and tarnish the opinions you support by dint of that support alone.

[Adam]

You know, I hear Nullifidian once cooked some Israeli babies and fed them to their parents at gunpoint.

OK, that might not technically be true, but he's done things just as evil, so it's impossible to slander him.

For instance, one time, he criticized Israeli policy re: the Palestinians.

In, and this is important, harsh language.

So, like I said, the guy cooks babies.

[yguy]

You're really a piece of work.No doubt. What I am not, however, is a filthy, slanderous little cockroach, like you are.

Thank God for small favors. :)

[Nullifidian]

You're really a piece of work.No doubt. What I am not, however, is a filthy, slanderous little cockroach, like you are.

Thank God for small favors. :)

So "slanderous" now means being the one who is slandered (e.g. "You're a God damned liar.").

I'll file that in the neocon-to-English lexicon between "freedom" ("The state of having no infrastructure, no economy save the black market, and then a military coup and dictatorship. Janis Joplin used the term in its neocon sense in 'Me and Bobby McGee': 'Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose....'") and "truthfulness" ("Being able to say you don't remember and not getting caught.").

Also does anyone get the sense of Radio Rwanda (http://www.internews.org.rw/case_study.htm) when yguy throws around the term "cockroach" or is that just me?

[yguy]

You're really a piece of work.No doubt. What I am not, however, is a filthy, slanderous little cockroach, like you are.

Thank God for small favors. :)

So "slanderous" now means being the one who is slandered (e.g. "You're a God damned liar.").That is clearly not slander as applied to you.

[Nullifidian]

You're really a piece of work.No doubt. What I am not, however, is a filthy, slanderous little cockroach, like you are.

Thank God for small favors. :)

So "slanderous" now means being the one who is slandered (e.g. "You're a God damned liar.").That is clearly not slander as applied to you.

Then, given the context in which those words appear, provide your supporting evidence that I have not spoken to any ISM members who were present at the time and told me about Rachel Corrie's death.

[yguy]

Then, given the context in which those words appear, provide your supporting evidence that I have not spoken to any ISM members who were present at the time and told me about Rachel Corrie's death.When did I say you haven't? :)

[Nullifidian]

Then, given the context in which those words appear, provide your supporting evidence that I have not spoken to any ISM members who were present at the time and told me about Rachel Corrie's death.When did I say you haven't? :)

Here. (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=411596#post411596)

[Adam]

Here, let me head off yguy's next response: what he said could also be interpreted as an accusation that you do know ISM members who were present at the time of Corrie's death, but that you, being the goddamn liar and baby broiler that you are, have misrepresented their reports.

[yguy]

Then, given the context in which those words appear, provide your supporting evidence that I have not spoken to any ISM members who were present at the time and told me about Rachel Corrie's death.When did I say you haven't? :)

Here. (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=411596#post411596)As the record shows, I made no representation about that particular claim of yours. I just called you a liar. :)

[Nullifidian]

Then, given the context in which those words appear, provide your supporting evidence that I have not spoken to any ISM members who were present at the time and told me about Rachel Corrie's death.When did I say you haven't? :)

Here. (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=411596#post411596)As the record shows, I made no representation about that particular claim of yours. I just called you a liar. :)

In response to my comment which you reproduced. That makes it a "representation about that particular claim", otherwise you would have reproduced another comment or no comment at all in your response. That's, of course, assuming that honest dialogue was your intention.

Would you care to tell me that this assumption is false and finally cop to trolling these boards? Assuming that you can stop being a smarmy little shit long enough to own up to what you're doing.

[Adam]

Uh...when you quote someone and, in response, call them a liar, a reasonable person would naturally conclude that you believed the quoted statement to be a lie. If you're just gratuitously accusing him of being a liar, you should probably go back and edit your post so that you aren't quoting a particular statement of his.

[yguy]

otherwise you would have reproduced another comment or no comment at all in your response. That's, of course, assuming that honest dialogue was your intention.In that post, indeed it was not, for the very good reason that I knew you had no interest in such a dialogue yourself. I knew you were too much of a coward to respond to my post #36, so I decided to rub your nose in it.

Sorry. :)

OK, I'm not. I'm not sure I know how to be sorry about about rubbing a rat's nose in its own dung...but maybe if someone will hum a few bars, I can fake it. :)

[D. Scarlatti]

Assuming that [yguy] can stop being a smarmy little shit ...

Yeah good luck with that.

[Nullifidian]

Well, if you're so interested in dialogue, why did you never respond to Watser's response to your post #36? Can you, in fact, point to any case in which your modus operandus hasn't been to slime, misrepresent, redirect the conversation, troll, etc.? That's all I've ever seen of you on this board, and I would hazard a guess--in fact not even a guess, but knowledge from talking with other members--that I am not alone in this assessment.

So the question becomes: "Why in the hell should I want to respond to your posts when they're a) stupid b) pointless and c) will result in or are the product of trolling?"

[yguy]

Well, if you're so interested in dialogue, why did you never respond to Watser's response to your post #36? I'm not interested in any "dialogue" with idiots.Why in the hell should I want to respond to your postsThat, of course, is your lookout. You would do yourself and the world a favor if you would ask instead why anyone should pay attention to a proven liar like yourself.

[Adam]

Well, if you're so interested in dialogue, why did you never respond to Watser's response to your post #36?

Pssst...it was in post #44. Any response should probably explain how explicit Israeli objections that a right of return would lead to an Arab majority are not tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

[yguy]

Well, if you're so interested in dialogue, why did you never respond to Watser's response to your post #36?

Pssst...it was in post #44. Any response should probably explain how explicit Israeli objection that a right of return would lead to an Arab majority are not tantamount to ethnic cleansing.Gee, do you think maybe the Israelis might have some reason to think an Arab majority might lead to something more ominous than an increase in the number of mosques in Israel?

Christ Almighty, I don't think I could be as stupid as some of you people if I got paid for it. :rolleyes:

[Nullifidian]

Well, if you're so interested in dialogue, why did you never respond to Watser's response to your post #36? I'm not interested in any "dialogue" with idiots.

So Watser's an idiot? He seems pretty sharp to me, and his post was very much on point:

How is it that the US still has some Native Americans left? As soon as they stop being a threat to your total control of the land, you can stop killing and dispersing them. You just refuse to let the people you chased away return so you can keep your majority and pretend to be a democratic state. You refuse to give the ones that stayed behind the right to own land or to 'recognise' their villages.

Why in the hell should I want to respond to your postsThat, of course, is your lookout. You would do yourself and the world a favor if you would ask instead why anyone should pay attention to a proven liar like yourself.

A proven liar like myself? Since you haven't proven me a liar, you must mean someone who hasn't been proven to be a liar at all, but has been slimed as such.

Well, there's no secret about why people should pay attention to that class of person: they're telling the truth, and that truth is not going to be told anywhere else (otherwise, the people that were sliming them would instead be lauding them).

I'm flattered that you'd count me among the ranks of I.F. Stone, Emma Goldman, Benny Morris, Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, etc. ;)

[yguy]

A proven liar like myself? Since you haven't proven me a liar, Of course I have. Most of these people hate me enough that they'll pretend you're an adonis wearing an Armani even when you're Ted Kennedy in his birthday suit, so I have no particular expectation of getting any backup; but I still have enough brains to see the obvious, even if no one else here does. :)

[Nullifidian]

It seems to me that you're starting to lose touch a bit. What could you have possibly produced that would prove that I was saying something that I knew at the time was false?

If I knew anyone who'd give a damn, I'd suggest some sort of psychiatric intervention.

[Lionello]

You are fine in my book, yguy. Count me as backup.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

i might not dig his politics, but i like him, based on his actions and what he does here on this forum- not fire up and annoy the church of the left, but give as good as he gets and remain in spite of them...he's not afraid to tell it how he sees it and he does that alone, knowing he's got nobody to back him up here. i think it sets a good example no matter what he talks about or says.

[Watser?]

Here's what the very well-researched Rachel Corrie Facts website has to say:

"According to a witness, Rachel slipped as she moved in front of the bulldozer, fell in front of the slow moving blade and was crushed by unearthed debris. An investigation, which included extensive interrogation of the driver and his commanders, using polygraphs and video evidence, revealed that the driver's view had been obstructed by the debris and by the bulldozer’s protective driver cage. An autopsy confirmed that the bulldozer had not touched Rachel."

Very well-researched my butt. It is just another of those very well-funded pro-Israeli propaganda sites.
B'Tselem has these dry facts (http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=11): Rachel Corrie
23 year-old, killed on 16.03.2003 in Rafah Refugee Camp. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: An American peace activist. Was run over by a bulldozer that the IDF was using to demolish houses.
There's also: Tom Hurndall
22 year-old, injured on 11.04.2003 in Rafah, by gunfire, and died on 13.01.2004. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: A British peace activist. Shot in the head.

James Miller
34 year-old, killed on 03.05.2003 in Rafah, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: A British news photographer. Killed in an exchange of gunfire between the IDF and Palestinian militants.

...

Ian Hook
50 year-old, killed on 22.11.2002 in Jenin Refugee Camp, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: A British citizen who worked for the UNRWA in Jenin camp. Killed in the UNRWA headquarters by IDF gunfire.

'Abd al-Fatah 'Othman Muhammad 'Ali
25 year-old, killed on 16.09.2002 next to Gush Katif, by gunfire. Additional information: An Egyptian citizen. Shot by IDF soldiers at a checkpoint.

Rafaele Chereilo
42 year-old, killed on 13.03.2002 in Ramallah. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: An Italian news photographer. Was killed by IDF gunfire while he was taking a picture of tanks.

Walid J'afreh
24 year-old, injured on 20.10.2000 in Tarkumiya, Hebron district, by gunfire, and died on 27.11.2000. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: A Jordanian citizen. Killed by a gunshot to his head.

Harald Fischer
68 year-old resident of Givon Hahadasha, al-Quds district, killed on 15.11.2000 in Beit Jala, Bethlehem district, by gunfire. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: A German doctor. Killed when he went to treat people who were injured.

Ibrahim Samih Barahmeh
22 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 02.10.2000 in 'Aqbat Jaber Camp, Jericho district, by gunfire. Additional information: A Jordanian citizen.

Mahmoud Rawishad 'Anbareh
20 year-old, killed on 30.09.2000 in Nablus, by gunfire. Additional information: A Jordanian citizen. Killed by a gunshot to his head.

[Watser?]

The house had a tunnel under it, used to smuggle weapons! That's a fact. By the way, Watser, not one Palestinian terrorist organization has accepted Israel's right to exist...not one of them, including Abbas' Fatah.

That's two lies in one short statement. Either you bought in to those lies completely or you know they are lies. So you could be stupid or you could be a liar, what is it? I'm betting on stupid for the record.

You are fine in my book, yguy. Count me as backup.

Hmmm, I consider this confirmation of my 'stupid' theory :duh:

[Watser?]

Well, if you're so interested in dialogue, why did you never respond to Watser's response to your post #36?

Pssst...it was in post #44. Any response should probably explain how explicit Israeli objection that a right of return would lead to an Arab majority are not tantamount to ethnic cleansing.Gee, do you think maybe the Israelis might have some reason to think an Arab majority might lead to something more ominous than an increase in the number of mosques in Israel?

Christ Almighty, I don't think I could be as stupid as some of you people if I got paid for it. :rolleyes:

Gosh, this statement almost had some content, so I'll do you a favor and treat it as if it has.

So what you are saying here in your fear and hate-mongering way is: yes, you're right, it is ethnic cleansing but they have a good reason.

Of course the white South Africans had the very same reason: we have treated those kaffers so badly and they are barbarians anyway, they will want revenge when we give them equal rights.

[Lionello]

Watser cares not one iota that Dina Carter, a young, idealistic American was

[Lionello]

Watser cares not one iota that Dina Carter, a young, idealistic American was
DELIBERATELY MURDERED by Hamas terrorists (who have murdered and mainedd thousands of others...including not a few Americans). Indeed, he's indicated that she deserved being murdered because she loved Israel. Consequerntly, Any arguments Watser tries to advance re: morality are a sick joke!

[Watser?]

Watser cares not one iota that Dina Carter, a young, idealistic American was

See above...

So I take it from your ignoring any points I made that this is all you have.

You are perfectly okay with ethnic cleansing, Israel killing Palestinian children, buldozers running over US citizens all paid with your tax money.

[Stormlight]

Nevermind

[Watser?]

Watser cares not one iota that Dina Carter, a young, idealistic American was
DELIBERATELY MURDERED by Hamas terrorists (who have murdered and mainedd thousands of others...including not a few Americans). Indeed, he's indicated that shye deserved being murdered because she loved Israel. Consequerntly, Any arguments Watser tries to advance re: morality are a sick joke!

As I said, you are a sad little man. I see there is no point in trying to argue with you, you are worse than yguy. And so is your spelling. :wave:

[But]

Indeed, he's indicated that shye deserved being murdered because she loved Israel.

Where?

You are a piece of shit. And your thread is a fucking joke.

[Stormlight]

Watser cares not one iota that Dina Carter, a young, idealistic American was
DELIBERATELY MURDERED by Hamas terrorists (who have murdered and mainedd thousands of others...including not a few Americans). Indeed, he's indicated that shye deserved being murdered because she loved Israel. Consequerntly, Any arguments Watser tries to advance re: morality are a sick joke!

Let's see: Lionello murders Palestinian babies! And then he eats them.

[Lionello]

Sadly, there is war and people die in wars. But Israel has NEVER had a policy of DELIBERATELY MURDERING innocent people. In fact, the IDF has taken many casualties over the years, by not firing in situations where a noncombatant would be in peril. But the Palestinian terrorist groups delight in DELIBERATELY murdering the innocent. This said, Watser, I will no longer read anything you post. You are not a very nice character...to say the least!

[Stormlight]

You are quite insane, my man.

[viscousmemories]

You are fine in my book, yguy. Count me as backup.

...and you may call me Mini Me!" :laugh:

That resolves my few remaining doubts about whether Lionello is interested in ideological spamvocacy or honest dialogue about these issues.

[Watser?]

Sadly, there is war and people die in wars. But Israsel has NEVER had a policy of DELIBERATELY MURDERING innocent pedople. In fact, the IDF has taken many casualties over the years, by not firing in situations where a noncombatant would be in peril. But the Palestinian terrorist groups delight in DELIBERATELY murdering the innocent. This said, Watser, I will no longer read anything you post. You are not a very nice character...to say the least!

Uh huh

You mean now that you can't refute the facts you will throw mud.

First of all: I was there, personally at the scene of a bombing in Gaza city (which will probably make me 'not a nice character') after Israel bombed a house where a leader of Islamic Jihad lived. He was killed along with 13 or so other people (accounts vary), most of them children, a two-month old baby among them. Israel threw a 1000 kilo bomb which obliterated the whole block. You may still consider this not deliberate because the baby was not the target. They knew very well when they did it though that there would be a lot of civilian dead. In fact among the B'Tselem statistics I posted you can see that this happens pretty much all the time during their 'targeted' killings.
Then of course there are the weapons Israel uses, for instance flechette shells
http://www.btselem.org/Shared/Images/Photos/Flashette_Darts_Small.jpeg
I have seen these myself in the Nablus area. They are like nailbombs, designed to kill as many people as possible.
Cluster bombs: Israel used thousands and thousands of cluster bombs in Lebanon last year, people are still dying from them. They used most of them in the last days of the conflict, to try to clear the south of civilians.

But the direct casualties from the conflict (where Israel kils FOUR TIMES as many children as I have said before, which means they kill FOUR TIMES as many innocents, I don't care if they do it deliberately or it is 847 'oops moments', because once you know this you are morally responsible anyway) are only part of the story. There is also indirect victims of the Israeli occupation.
Infringment of the right to medical treatment (http://www.btselem.org/english/Medical_Treatment/): International law requires the special handling of the sick, wounded, pregnant women, and the feeble, and provides that medical teams and sick and wounded persons must be allowed to pass. By routinely restricting the freedom of movement of ambulances in the Occupied Territories, Israel flagrantly violates international law and causes grave harm to health of the residents of the Occupied Territories.
I don't even know if anyone keeps any statistics on that. Here's an example though. (http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070807_Heart_patient_dies_after_medical_delay_at_Bartaa_witness_Saed_al_Atrash.asp)

[Adam]

So what you are saying here in your fear and hate-mongering way is: yes, you're right, it is ethnic cleansing but they have a good reason.

When was the last ethnic cleansing where the group doing it didn't have a supposedly good reason?

[Watser?]

So what you are saying here in your fear and hate-mongering way is: yes, you're right, it is ethnic cleansing but they have a good reason.

When was the last ethnic cleansing where the group doing it didn't have a supposedly good reason?

You obviously haven't heard of Librarians for Ethnic Cleansing who practice it strictly for the wrong reasons, as a hobby. They go out on weekends and cleanse a city block and then on Mondays tell the inhabitants it was all for a lark and let them go back. :yup:

[Clutch Munny]

Witnesses whom I know personally have told me, as they have told the world, that she was in full view of the bulldozer operator when he ran her over, then backed up and ran her over again.You're a God damned liar.

As the record shows, I made no representation about that particular claim of yours. I just called you a liar. :)

I love these little yguy moments. The complete lack of shame and integrity, the utter intellectual vacuity and moral emptiness at a personal level, reflects so appropriately on the slimy views he preaches more widely. It's like a little neon sign, saying, "This is how contemptible you'd have to be, in order to think the things I think."

Perfection.

[But]

Well put.

[godfry n. glad]

You are fine in my book, yguy. Count me as backup.

:doh:

[davidm]

Sadly, there is war and people die in wars. But Israsel has NEVER had a policy of DELIBERATELY MURDERING innocent pedople.


:laugh:

Nah, sure they haven't, little one.

:pat:

Now, perhaps you might like to show, with respect to your opening post, that librarians are censoring the Israeli point of view. That should make for good reading. :popcorn:

[davidm]

Oh, wait ... he didn't say "innocent people," he said, "innocent pedople." Maybe he means innocent pedophiles?

In that case he might be right about Israel's murder policy. Other than that, though, of course they murder innocent people all the time, deliberately.

[Nullifidian]

Sadly, there is war and people die in wars.

Even a war can have war crimes. In fact, it's a necessary precondition for war crimes. Israel routinely committed war crimes by targeting civilian areas and infrastructure last year, and thereby causing all of the people in South Lebanon, civilians included, to become internally displaced persons. It's not hard to infer that this was policy, because Olmert was bragging after the war concluded that this was one of his 'successes'.

But Israsel has NEVER had a policy of DELIBERATELY MURDERING innocent pedople.

You know, this board does have a spell-check functionality. It's the ABC with checkmark icon.

Watser has already discussed how the Israeli indifference to civilian death, but I would like to be the one to finally call bullshit on all elements of this claim.

Israel very definitely has had a policy of deliberately murdering innocent people. Remember the film Munich? What Spielberg and Kushner did not disclose, and instead actively worked to give the opposite impression, was that the people who were featured dying in this film had nothing to do with planning Operation Iqrit and Biri'm (and if you're ever in a mood to see how Israel treats its Christian population, you might look up those names of two Palestinian villages). Instead, Israel had enacted a policy of murdering prominent Palestinian intellectuals who supported the nationalist cause. They were entirely innocent; their only 'crime' was making some citizens within and without Israel feel bad about the occupation. This practice started before the Munich affair, not after it, although this was not disclosed to the viewer either.

Before Munich, the IDF placed a car bomb under the car of Ghassan Kanafani, the Palestinian writer and artist, and killed him and a fourteen year-old niece who was riding in the car with him. Not because Kanafani was a 'terrorist' or had any provable links to terrorists, but because he simply was a strong Native voice for Palestinian nationalism. This was, of course, not included in Munich. It would have screwed up their preferred timeline and also little girls getting their limbs blown off and dying by car bombs is not very...photogenic, even if it's true. And Kanafani wasn't the only one. Writer and journalist Bassam Abu Sharif and writer Anis Sayigh were both maimed for life from letter bombs sent to them. Anis Sayegh is now also blind and deaf. The list could go on and on--even Edward Said was a target--but I'm not sure I can, because listing these acts of state-sponsored terrorism (and what else could one call them?) fill me with revulsion.

In fact, the IDF has taken many casualties over the years, by not firing in situations where a noncombatant would be in peril. But the Palestinian terrorist groups delight in DELIBERATELY murdering the innocent.

Oh, right, they delight in it. Whereas the Israeli soldier "shoots and cries", the Palestinian is a subhuman species which delights in deaths and has no moral qualms about what they have had to do to survive. Just as any other Native population, whether it's the Irish when the British tried to take over, the Native Americans, Palestinians, etc. is demonized when people want their land and resources.

In fact, Golda Meir once said, “We can forgive you for killing our children but we can never forgive you for making us kill your children." When I first read this, I thought it was a bad joke. The Irish have a joke, which like most jokes from oppressed people is less funny than true. A British soldier comes across an Irish man in the streets, and proceeds to brutally beat and stab the man to death. Choking out his bewilderment with his last, dying breath, the Irish man says, "What have we ever done to make you hate us so?" The British soldier spits on him and says, "You swine, we will never forgive you for what we've done to you!" That's how the oppressor class reacts to this upstart nationalism: they blame the victims of their oppression for bumming their colonialist buzz.

This said, Watser, I will no longer read anything you post. You are not a very nice character...to say the least!

Right, because being the lickspittle toady of the powerful against the powerless makes one the highest and most admirable type of person, unlike people like Watser, whose backwards and contorted sympathy for the powerless against the powerful make them the lowest and most reprehensible people. Since we can all clearly see that the powerful should be in power, because if they shouldn't be, then that would really mean that the status quo is wrong and your bland, pompously self-satisfied comfort with things as they are would be wrong too. And that's just inconceivable.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

it's weak to resort to picking on spelling. you can't do that if you were debating face to face....this tactic is the sign of people struggling to prove their point.

lame.

[Stormlight]

We work to ensure that Israel's viewpoint is represented fairly in our libraries

Also: explain to us what Israel's viewpoint is. Thank you.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

it's weak to resort to picking on spelling. you can't do that if you were debating face to face....this tactic is the sign of people struggling to prove their point.

lame.

A far lesser crime than focusing on one sentence in a far longer and informative post. You fail.

[Clutch Munny]

I think it's fair [to call Lionello a troll at this point]. The complete failure to even acknowledge countervailing arguments is a a major factor.


Watser, Correct me if I'm, wrong. But from what you wrote, I can conclude that you feel that the murder of Dina Carter, a gentle, scholarly young woman, was fine. I feel sorry for you, Watser.
You are a sad little man. I have stated very clearly that I care about the victims on both sides.

Watser cares not one iota that Dina Carter, a young, idealistic American was DELIBERATELY MURDERED by Hamas terrorists... Indeed, he's indicated that she deserved being murdered because she loved Israel.

:trophy:

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

it's weak to resort to picking on spelling. you can't do that if you were debating face to face....this tactic is the sign of people struggling to prove their point.

lame.

A far lesser crime than focusing on one sentence in a far longer and informative post. You fail.

that was the only part that mattered to me.

i stated my case a while ago. nobody here is changing my mind...nobody here is changing your mind either.

[Nullifidian]

it's weak to resort to picking on spelling. you can't do that if you were debating face to face....this tactic is the sign of people struggling to prove their point.

lame.

A far lesser crime than focusing on one sentence in a far longer and informative post. You fail.

Not to mention he fails by running with an assumption that I'm picking on spelling in order to discredit Lionello's argument. However, the way I see it is either Lionello is indifferent to his typos, in which case my pointing out that we have spell check will cause no harm, or he cares about proper spelling and doesn't know there is the means to check it. In that case, he should be made aware of the spell-check function.

Had I known that trying to be helpful would have gotten this reaction...I wouldn't have done a thing differently, 'cause I really don't give a damn about zeke's opinion. ;)

Instead, I think I can safely leave it up to the reader to decide if I'm really the one struggling to make my point. :yup:

[But]

Look for a copy of this book at your local library:

Amazon.com: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy: John J. Mearsheimer, Stephen M. Walt (http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374177724/)

Nicely written and very well researched, as should be expected from heavyweights like this.

[godfry n. glad]

Excuse me, but it seems to me that every library in the US has the Israeli viewpoint expressed in print. Daily. That's because most libraries have the local newspaper.

[davidm]

Watser cares not one iota that Dina Carter, a young, idealistic American was
DELIBERATELY MURDERED by Hamas terrorists (who have murdered and mainedd thousands of others...including not a few Americans). Indeed, he's indicated that she deserved being murdered because she loved Israel.

I haven't read this thread throughly, skipping over parts of it. So maybe I missed this. Could you please point out where Watser? said that Dina Carter deserved to be murdered because she loved Israel? Thanks! :wave:

Also, could you present your evidence that Israeli viewpoints are being censored in libraries? :wave:

If you can't back up your claims, people will think that you are, well (like yguy), a despicable little shit, won't they? :wave:

[yguy]

This said, Watser, I will no longer read anything you post. You are not a very nice character...to say the least!You're coming off as a bit emotional. That's a big mistake when you're in a hostile environment. If they can get you angry, they can draw the worst out of you, no matter how correct your position may be. OTOH, if you keep your cool, what they're trying to do to you, you'll do to them without even trying. For instance, upstairs some clown has advertised his perverted fantasies about me, thinking he's coming off as more humorous than sexually deviant. You think he's hurting me? No, only himself. :)

[yguy]

It seems to me that you're starting to lose touch a bit. What could you have possibly produced that would prove that I was saying something that I knew at the time was false?You're either being obscenely coy or you're insane. My guess is both of the above, in which case you're obviously hoping to draw me into your insanity. No way in the world will that happen, though you are certainly welcome to keep giving it the old college try anyway - in which case, with any luck, you'll end up tearing your own eyes out and/or committing suicide. Talk about a win-win deal for the universe. :)

[Nullifidian]

It seems to me that you're starting to lose touch a bit. What could you have possibly produced that would prove that I was saying something that I knew at the time was false?You're either being obscenely coy or you're insane. My guess is both of the above, in which case you're obviously hoping to draw me into your insanity.

Drawing you into insanity would be to carry coals to Newcastle. And I was asking in all seriousness, because your trolling was premised on accusing me of being a liar and not providing any evidence, just more misdirection. I put up with it, even though I saw where it was going to go from the outset (and you did not disappoint), so that we could have a precis of why you are a slimy, disreputable shit.

However, at no time during that whole exchange, did you produce a scrap of evidence that I was knowingly telling falsehoods. There was no room in your trolling for such a thing to happen. And now you expect me to believe that you were serious when you said I was a liar?

It should take barely the slightest effort to link to where you provided evidence for your claim upthread, so why don't you?

[yguy]

honest dialogueYer a riot, dude. :tmgrin:

:biglaugh:

[yguy]

you expect me to believeI have no reason to expect you to believe anything but lies. That's why we have, shall we say, a failure communicate. ;)

[Nullifidian]

you expect me to believeI have no reason to expect you to believe anything but lies. That's why we have, shall we say, a failure communicate. ;)

Right, because the only thing you have are lies, which is why you'd have to expect me to believe them if I were to believe you. And I'm not biting.

You know, you could change that by taking positions which don't rest on a foundation of lies.

[yguy]

You know, you could change that by taking positions which don't rest on a foundation of lies.Damn. I think this guy has the potential to be another Jim Jones. :)

[godfry n. glad]

psssssst....yguy?

Hey, guy....There's some decent advice from a poster in this thread. Where is that now...ah, here:

You're coming off as a bit emotional. That's a big mistake when you're in a hostile environment. If they can get you angry, they can draw the worst out of you, no matter how correct your position may be.

Hey....That was YOU!

Man...You don't even follow your own stinkin' advice.

[yguy]

psssssst....yguy?

Hey, guy....There's some decent advice from a poster in this thread. Where is that now...ah, here:

You're coming off as a bit emotional. That's a big mistake when you're in a hostile environment. If they can get you angry, they can draw the worst out of you, no matter how correct your position may be.

Hey....That was YOU!

Man...You don't even follow your own stinkin' advice.Yes, I do. :)

[viscousmemories]

I have to go with yguy on this one. There has never been a whiff of human emotion in his comments.

[godfry n. glad]

I have to go with yguy on this one. There has never been a whiff of human emotion in his comments.

Well, the rational content rather eludes me, so I was assuming that it was largely emotional content....like the dumbass comment about Jim Jones, one of his fellow theists.

But then, I don't remember making any comment about human emotion, nor do I remember yguy doing so, either.

[D. Scarlatti]

There's always a whiff of something.

[Angakuk]

godfry, that still leaves un-emotional but irrational content as an option.

[godfry n. glad]

There's always a whiff of something.

Yeah, and I'm getting damned tired of him standing upwind all the time.

[godfry n. glad]

godfry, that still leaves un-emotional but irrational content as an option.

Ah.

So...Is that sociopathic, or merely psychopathic?

[Lionello]

Well, the Librarians for Fairness website got a lot more hits in the past few days. But the website has always had a lot of traffic...just more so the past couple of days.

My guess is the Rachel Corrie Facts website has received a lot more hits too. She was anything but a peace activist.

So this has all been worth it.

What has surprised me though has been the cruelty of some who have been posting.

[viscousmemories]

[Rachel Corrie] was anything but a peace activist.

What has surprised me though has been the cruelty of some who have been posting.
I'm surprised too. Smearing the name of a young woman who gave her life protesting a perceived injustice is about as cruel as it comes.

I think it's been worth it too. Hopefully very many people who might be lured by your spam in the future will stumble on this thread, and see just how morally and intellectually bankrupt your hateful, bigoted ideology really is.

[Angakuk]

What has surprised me though has been the cruelty of some who have been posting.

What? You were maybe expecting an outpouring of Christian charity on a board populated by godless atheists? Hell, you won't even find that on Christian forums (maybe least of all there).

Seriously though, pretty much anyone who shows up at :ff: with an axe to grind (and apparently no other purpose for their presence) gets the same treatment.

[Nullifidian]

Well, the Librarians for Fairness website got a lot more hits in the past few days. But the website has always had a lot of traffic...just more so the past couple of days.

My guess is the Rachel Corrie Facts website has received a lot more hits too. She was anything but a peace activist.

So this has all been worth it.

Really? So you'll spam us again in case the hits start dropping on your websites? Or are you going to run off and hit some other forum where you hope that people won't be 'rude' enough to refute you?

What has surprised me though has been the cruelty of some who have been posting.

Wah. It's cruel to deprive you of your illusions about the illegal Israeli occupation.

Guess what? It's far more cruel to the Palestinians who are suffering every day under this occupation to leave you with your delusions intact.

[Lionello]

Please see below:

[Lionello]

By "illegal occupation," I suspect you mean Tel-Aviv, Haifa, etc. I suspect you mean that Israel has no right to exist.

And right now there are a lot of Palestinians who prefer Israeli administration of the Gaza Strip to Hamas administration...Palestinians who long for the Israelis to return. Hamas administration has even failed to empty garbage cans on the streets. Money that should be spent on paying the wages of doctors in Gaza's hospital is used instead to launch rockets at Israeli civilian communities, such as Sderot. Can you imagine how horrible life is for any Christian Arab in Gaza, who is now living under Hamas rule?

As for Rachel Corrie, she supported terrorism and never gave a damn if innocent Israeli chidren were murdered by the weapons she de facto helped to smuggle into Gaza from Egypt...via the tunnels she was protecting. I urge those who have not yet done so to visit the Rachel Corrie Facts website. And to those who lionize Rachel Corrie, where is your sympathy for Dina Carter...the young American woman murdered (with other innocent people) when Hamas terrorists bombed the Frank Sinatra Cafeteria of Hebrew University?

[Uthgar the Brazen]

:yawn: @ :spammer:

[Nullifidian]

By "illegal occupation," I suspect you mean Tel-Aviv, Haifa, etc.

You suspect wrongly. I suspect that you know full well what I mean--that Israel is not respecting the 1967 borders--and that you're being deliberately obtuse in order to draw out this argument.

I suspect you mean that Israel has no right to exist.

I suspect you of making things up out of thin air. You could always ask me what I think about Israel's alleged 'right to exist' and I would reply "I'm an anarchist. I don't recognize any government's 'right to exist'." That means I'll be difficult to convince in the case of Israel, but it also means I'd be equally difficult to convince when it comes to the government of Kazakhstan.

However, for the sake of those forum members who are not anarchists here, could you define what a country's "right to exist" means in the context of international law, and the specifics of what this means in the case of Israel? Does Palestine have a "right to exist"?

And right now there are a lot of Palestinians who prefer Israeli administration of the Gaza Strip to Hamas administration...who long for the Israelis to return.

This is the most cynical lie I've ever heard. To appropriate Clutch Munny's words above, it's a giant neon sign saying "This is how contemptible you'd have to be to believe what I do." The Israelis never left in terms of influence over the region, as you must well know--the Gazans certainly do--because they have now embargoed the Gaza Strip and are starving its residents and destroying its economy (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070820_starving_gaza/).

According to Médecins du Monde, by summer 2006 anaemia, which can be a sign of poor nutrition (and almost always is in these high numbers, unless you're dealing with an epidemic malaria outbreak) was running at 70% in the Gaza Strip. Half of the Gazans are unemployed since Israel has shut down the only crossing which is capable of handling the volumes of materials made in Gaza, and the deputy head of UNRWA has recently said that there is a very small and fast-closing window to address the issue of the Gazan economy until it begins a complete collapse.

Hamas administration has even failed to empty garbage cans on the streets. Money that should be spent on paying the wages of doctors in Gaza's hospital is used instead to launch rockets at Israeli civilian communities, such as Sderot.

Oh come off it. You must think I'm one of the babes in the woods. Israel is currently ripping off the Palestinian people by keeping their excise money for themselves, save for 10% or so they've chosen to bestow on Abbas' illegal government in the West Bank, and that is why Hamas cannot pay for its government services.

As for Rachel Corrie, she supported terrorism and never gave a damn if innocent Israeli chidren were murdered by the weapons she de facto helped to smuggle into Gaza from Egypt...via the tunnels she was protecting.

There were no goddamn tunnels in the Nasrallah home. You know this by now. I've already posted my refutation (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=411236#post411236), and you had absolutely nothing to say in response except to repeat your original claim, which was sunk below the waterline. If you have any actual physical evidence of tunnels in the Nasrallah home, now would be the time to present it. Otherwise, kindly stop making the same refuted claims over and over again.

[Watser?]

By "illegal occupation," I suspect you mean Tel-Aviv, Haifa, etc. I suspect you mean that Israel has no right to exist.
You are a pathetic little troll. You haven't responded to anything anyone said in this entire thread, you just keep on spewing the same talking points. You could even be a piece of fucking software, wouldn't make any difference at all.
You know very well what is meant by an illegal occupation. Are you denying that the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza are occupied? Then are you saying they are part of Israel? In that case it is about time the inhabitants are treated as Israeli citizens.
There is no 'right to exist'. But if you are asking should the Palestinians recognise Israel's existence? No, how can they if it is unclear where Israel ends and Palestine begins? Recognising Israel is impossible as a precondition, it can only be done as a result of negotiations that end in a two-state solution (assuming a two-state solution would be a good idea and still a possibility).

And right now there are a lot of Palestinians who prefer Israeli administration of the Gaza Strip to Hamas administration...Palestinians who long for the Israelis to return. Hamas administration has even failed to empty garbage cans on the streets. Money that should be spent on paying the wages of doctors in Gaza's hospital is used instead to launch rockets at Israeli civilian communities, such as Sderot. Can you imagine how horrible life is for any Christian Arab in Gaza, who is now living under Hamas rule?
Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of Indonesians who want our good old Dutch rule back and there were slaves that were pissed off that they were set free.
How nice that the Israeli apologists always know exactly what the Palestinians should spend their money on while they are figuring out new ways to take it from them. The Israelis have robbed the Palestinians of their own tax-money and witheld it from them since Hamas was elected (after Israel and the US went out of their ways to screw the 'moderate' (pliable that is) Fatah for years). I suppose you were protesting that too?

As for Rachel Corrie, she supported terrorism and never gave a damn if innocent Israeli chidren were murdered by the weapons she de facto helped to smuggle into Gaza from Egypt...via the tunnels she was protecting. I urge those who have not yet done so to visit the Rachel Corrie Facts website. And to those who lionize Rachel Corrie, where is your sympathy for Dina Carter...the young American woman murdered (with other innocent people) when Hamas terrorists bombed the Frank Sinatra Cafeteria of Hebrew University?
Again with the talking point-bot tactics. :sigh:
We have been over all of this, could you please send a real bot over, there might be more sense in talking to that. MegaHAL (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13247) at least SEEMED to respond to what other people said. You wouldn't fool anybody into thinking you were human.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

:popcorn:

[davidm]

By "illegal occupation," I suspect you mean Tel-Aviv, Haifa, etc. I suspect you mean that Israel has no right to exist.

And right now there are a lot of Palestinians who prefer Israeli administration of the Gaza Strip to Hamas administration...Palestinians who long for the Israelis to return.

Is your dishonesty, savagery and corruption without limit?

[davidm]

Oh, and we're still waiting for you to provide evidence that librarians are censoring the Israeli point of view. :wave:

[But]

:plzhold:

[Stormlight]

Oh, and we're still waiting for you to provide evidence that librarians are censoring the Israeli point of view. :wave:

Speaking of which: Could you PLEASE explain "Israels viewpoint"? Please?

[Watser?]

Here's 2 more statistics
Two Palestinian children have been killed in an explosion in a farming area in the north of the Gaza Strip.

Witnesses said the children were killed by a shell fired from an Israeli tank.

The Israeli military has confirmed that it was firing at rocket launchers in the area.

Palestinian doctors said the two dead children were boys aged 10 and 12. They said a 12-year-old girl was also critically injured in the blast.

Palestinian doctors at the Kamal Radwan hospital in northern Gaza say the girl suffered serious brain injuries.

All three children are reported to be cousins.

According to Palestinian medical officials, eight children have now been killed by Israeli military operations in Gaza and the West Bank in just over a week.BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6969111.stm)

[Clutch Munny]

Watser? that just shows how cruel you are. I shan't be replying to any more of your posts.

[Sauron]

Sadly, there is war and people die in wars. But Israel has NEVER had a policy of DELIBERATELY MURDERING innocent people.

Bullshit.

My guess is the Rachel Corrie Facts website has received a lot more hits too.
Ah. Politics by "guess". A friend of yguy's, apparently.

She was anything but a peace activist.
That's precisely what she was.

So this has all been worth it.
I suppose. It's nice to get the nutjob shit out in the open and up-front; it saves the discovery process quite a few steps.

What has surprised me though has been the cruelty of some who have been posting.
What surprises me is that your head doesn't explode.

[godfry n. glad]

Sadly, there is war and people die in wars. But Israel has NEVER had a policy of DELIBERATELY MURDERING innocent people.

Bullshit.



Great steaming heaps of...

Hell, they were deliberately murdering innocent people before they were actually Israelis. Irgun....Menachem Begin...Jewish terrorists...King David Hotel...Dier Yassin...

[Qingdai]

I was wondering what the Mossad was up to this summer.
They (like most men I know) seem to have a thing for librarians.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I was wondering what the Mossad was up to this summer.
They (like most men I know) seem to have a thing for librarians.

Beneath the mousy exteriors are ample, heaving bosoms just waiting to blossom in all their nympho glory.

[Stormlight]

What I like about LfF is that it is NOT politically correct.

You're such a badass!

[But]

:biker2:

[Shelli]

I hadn't been in this thread in awhile, I think it'll be awhile later before I am again, if I am again. :kookoo: :tiptoe:

[Lionello]

Ponder these atrocities by Palestinian terrorists: Kfar Etziion, murder of more than eighty Israeli doctors & nurses in the Jerusalem medical convoy, Maalot Massacre of Israeli schoolgirls & their teachers, slaughter of the Israeli Olympic athletes, etc., etc., etc. But then again, Palestinian terrorists are trying to murder Israeli civilians on a daily basis. And when they're not doing that...they are killing other Palestinians...throwing them from rooftops, etc.

[Watser?]

take me to your leader
:grey:

[livius drusus]

That is a non-sequitur, Lionello. There are several (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=412375#post412375) questions (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=412314#post412314) people have put to you that you have yet to answer. Perhaps you could trouble yourself to be genuinely responsive to the issues raised instead of just reiterating your propaganda points? Thank you.

[Nullifidian]

Lionello, do you think you would be capable of responding to anything that's been posted rebutting your previous claims, or are you going to simply come up with further pointless lists and posts?

[Shelli]

:sermonize:

[The Lone Ranger]

It's my impression that if one wishes to sway others' opinions, it's necessary to provide (at least somewhat) substantive replies to questions. Otherwise, one is quickly written off as a mindless proselytizer.

Nobody likes or respects a mindless proselytizer, and so such a person does more harm to his or her cause than good.

Cheers,

Michael

[Lionello]

Livius crusus, I've answered questions (but I must admit that I've stopped reading anything Watser...the character who has no sympathy for librarian Dina Carter, who was murdered by Hamas terrorists) posts. If Watser asks something, I won't answer it, because I won't be reading the question(s).

Google search the following articles, oh wannabe Lone Ranger: "Librarians for Terror", "Librarians Against Israel: The Outrage Continues", "Our Israel-Bashing Libraries,"...there are others. I'd always liked the Lone Ranger, when I was a kid. Livius, you are definitely not the Lone Ranger (played by the late, great Clayton Moore) that was my hero. And I think Tonto would have agreed with me.

[davidm]

Ok, who let the crazy aunt out of the attic?

:laugh:

[But]

Livius crusus, I've answered questions


You haven't really. You just keep repeating talking points like a mantra.


(but I must admit that I've stopped reading anything Watser...the character who has no sympathy for librarian Dina Carter, who was murdered by Hamas terrorists) posts.


Stop lying, you sack of shit.


If Watser asks something, I won't answer it, because I won't be reading the question(s).


How convenient.


Google search the following articles, oh wannabe Lone Ranger: "Librarians for Terror", "Librarians Against Israel: The Outrage Continues", "Our Israel-Bashing Libraries,"...there are others.

You missed "Why Everyone Loves Israel: How Israel Became The Wonderful Place That It Always Was And How Israel Saves Puppies, Baby Seals And Little Orphans From The Islamo-Arab-Nazis". The rest of your ridiculous site's recommended, fair and balanced list comes pretty close, though.

[livius drusus]

Livius crusus, I've answered questions
Not the ones I linked to in my post above, or the one I asked you on the first page of this thread. I'll repeat it just in case you missed it:

What I like about LfF is that it is NOT politically correct.
Meaning what, precisely? Who stipulates what political position is correct and in what way is this organization going contrary to that position?

(but I must admit that I've stopped reading anything Watser...the character who has no sympathy for librarian Dina Carter, who was murdered by Hamas terrorists) posts.
That is a false allegation. Watser? repeatedly said he cares about victims on both sides of this conflict. It is you who have yet to express any consideration whatsoever for the Palestinian victims.

Do you have sympathy for the Palestinian dead, Lionello?

Livius, you are definitely not the Lone Ranger (played by the late, great Clayton Moore) that was my hero. And I think Tonto would have agreed with me.
Okey dokey.

[Clutch Munny]

Hear that, liv?

You are not The Lone Ranger. No Lone Ranger, you.

Bah, I deride your solitary ranging abilities!

[Lionello]

Watser said that he had sympathy for Dina Carter's family, but indicated that he had no sympathy for her (after all, she loved Israel...a strict no-no in Watser's bigoted mind). I have sympathy for the innocent victims on both sides of this long-running conflict, but no sympathy for Hamas, Hezbollah Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP & other Palestinian terrorists.

I feel I've achieved my original goal, to a small extent. Visits to the website of Librarians for Fairness are up. And I'm certain there are more visits to the website, Rachel Corrie Facts. Bye-bye!

[But]

:doorhitass:, you link whoring opinion spammer.

[viscousmemories]

I think this thread was productive too, given that it is now in the top 10 results returned in a search for "Librarians for Fairness" on Google. Hopefully Lionello's disingenuous spamming here will be a red flag to anyone tempted to believe his pet organizations are interested in fair and balanced reporting on these issues.

[Lionello]

I'm back , for a last argument. The short article I'm posting here is worth thinking about.

The Wall Street Journal - Mar 17, 2002
Terror Advocate Dies in Accident
By James Taranto

Rachel Corrie, a 23-year-old terrorism advocate from Olympia, Wash., died in a bulldozer accident yesterday. Corrie was at fault in the accident, which occurred when she either stood or crouched in front of an Israeli Defense Forces bulldozer in Gaza.

The bulldozers were part of an IDF tunnel- and mine-clearing operation. The Rafah refugee camp borders Egypt, from which Palestinian terrorists smuggle in weapons and explosives. And according to interim peace accords, Israel has the right to operate in and secure the area.

Corrie not only backed anti-Israeli terrorism; she also hated America. An Associated Press photo shows Corrie, her face contorted with hate, burning a "mock U.S. flag" at a pro-Saddam rally last month. (Hat tip: Little Green Footballs.) Reuters reports on a "symbolic funeral" that drew some 1,000 Palestinian Arabs. One of them tells the "news" service: "We fly a U.S. flag today to show our support to all American peace lovers, those like Rachel." If she were still alive, no doubt she'd have burned the flag.

It's a shame that Rachel Corrie died the way she did. It's shameful that she lived the way she did.

[davidm]

I feel I've achieved my original goal, to a small extent. Visits to the website of Librarians for Fairness are up. And I'm certain there are more visits to the website, Rachel Corrie Facts. Bye-bye!

Yes, and those same people will see this thread, and how your hollow pretensions and fundamental dishonesty have been exposed. :popcorn:

[davidm]

Hear that, liv?

You are not The Lone Ranger. No Lone Ranger, you.

Bah, I deride your solitary ranging abilities!

I think Liv is "free-range."

[davidm]

I'm back , for a last argument.


An opinion by some hack writer at the Wall Street Journal is not an argument, bubba! :giggle:

Do you have any clue what an argument actually consists of? :wave:

[viscousmemories]

I'm back , for a last argument.
Spam isn't an argument.

[Clutch Munny]

Bye-bye!... I'm back...

He'll be back. As long as people are reading, he'll keep spamming.

And that's good, as a few people have noted. The more people find this thread when they investigate his bullshit webpages, the more who'll come to recognize his brand of hatred toward Palestinians. And the better they'll recognize the practically robotic smear tactics deployed against anyone who isn't a willing anti-Palestinian coprophage.

[D. Scarlatti]

The Wall Street Journal ... terrorism advocate

I'm not sure James Taranto's weblog counts as the "Wall Street Journal" ... does it?

[viscousmemories]

Yeah, good point. Not to mention the "hat tip" to that bastion of reason and charity Little Green Footballs. :rolleyes:

As for the Lionello's repeated claim that Rachel Corrie was advocating terrorism:

MYTH: Rachel Corrie was killed while preventing the Israeli Army from destroying arms smuggling tunnels used by terrorists.

FACT: Rachel was standing in front of the home of friends - pharmacist Samir Nasrallah, his brother Khaled Nasrallah, and their wives and children. The Israeli government has never accused Samir or Khaled Nasrallah or their wives or children of links to terrorism. The Israeli army has never claimed that the Nasrallah home hid a weapons smuggling tunnel.

In the seven