Spirituality and Deities...Is it Spiritual or Physical?

[FormerFundie2004]

Many people claim that they have spirits, that there is a spiritual realm where a deity exists, and/or that we will enter the spiritual realm upon death.

But how do we know there is a deity anyway?

How do I know...that there's a supernatural being, or beings out there? Are we sspiritual beings?

We use subjective evidence as proof of the spiritual. I use mostly the example of the self-consciousness of every human. I understand how our bodies could have, and most likely did, evolve...but our self-consciousness? I cannot see how this could be a part of biological evolution.

What is self-consciousness, anyway? On the most basic and deep level, it is being aware of yourself. Knowing you exist. This is something that is unneccessary in the evolutionary process. One does not need to have self-awareness to aid in survival and reproduction.

I know I exist. I am very aware of how I feel, what I am doing, where I have been, and where I am going. And this self-awareness, I think, is the biggest argument for the existence of a deity. Because there is no other explanation for how we got it.

Perhaps, however, we did evolve the self-conscious, and do yet know exactly how. I am open to this possibility, but for now, it remains proof of the supernatural.

Further intellectual exploration naturally leads to the question: Why did a deity want us to have a self-consciousness? Why has he/she/it let us evolve without interference, or with little interference? What does he/she/it have to do with us?

Kinda scary.

[wade-w]

I agree that conciousness is the best argument for the existence of some sort of spirit or soul. However, I don't think it's really sufficient to conclude that conciousness does necessarily impy that there is a spiritual realm. It is quite possible, even probable, that conciousness is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex brain/nervous system.


Also, the existence of a spiritual realm doesn't necessarily imply the existence of a deity.

[Ymir's blood]

Because there is no other explanation for how we got it.

No other explanation that you are willing to accept. You dismissed the possibility of an evolutionary reason simply by saying, "I cannot see how this could be a part of biological evolution." Saying that you can't see how it could work isn't an argument against a naturalistic reason. It is simply a statement about your beliefs.

The second problem is that you can't prove the existence of God by disproving something else. Arguments for the existence of a deity must stand on their own. Each idea must be judged on its own merits. If you have two competing ideas, and one is proven to be false, that doesn't make the other true by default. This is known as bifurcation or a 'false dichotomy', reducing a question to only two possible answers when there may well be other alternatives.

Finally, using the existence of God to solve 'gaps' in knowledge about the origins/nature of life doesn't solve the problem at all. It only removes it by one step. If mankind requires a creator due to its complexity, then God also requires a creator as well. Where did God's consciousness and power come from?

[JoeP]

We use subjective evidence as proof of the spiritual.
Subjective evidence is often proof of something, but it's usually something psychological - "all in the mind", though no less real for that. Spirituality is internal.

self-consciousness [...] This is something that is unneccessary in the evolutionary process. One does not need to have self-awareness to aid in survival and reproduction.
On the contrary, I believe self-consciousness is strongly adaptive in species (like higher primates) that have social structures. The social structures help with food and defence, so they have survival value for individuals, but to mate the individual needs to compete for rank/status. Being self-aware is part of this.

You may want to limit your definition of "self-consciousness" to species capable of claiming self-consciousness (I think therefore I am), ie having language. I'm not sure which came first - I have a suspicion self-awareness is a prerequisite for a motivation to communicate, but it could be the other way round - but the same adaptive advantages apply. Self-consciousness enables many things: bargaining with someone else for mutual advantage (including survival and reproduction chances); learning skills from others; rank, power and social position.

I mostly agree with the other responses but I just wanted to pick up on this point specifically.

joe

[Dingfod]

Shoot, I thought this was about diets, not deities.