Apple

[Bella]

Jek is going to buy me a laptop for my birthday in March. I've decided that I want an Apple - they always say that one returns to their first love, and Macintosh is it.

So, I'm looking for advice from fellow Apple owners. Should I shell out the extra dough for the Powerbook? Or is an iBook enough? Is MS Office an absolute necessity for compatibility? Or shouldn't I worry about that?

(oh, and please no lectures on the evils of apple.)

[Socratoad]

Can't give ya much advice Bree, however I was just reading yesterday that Apple is about to introduce a new model priced just under five hundred dollars. Methinks I might like to have one of those.

Off topic: didja get the ipod thingy working?

[Dingfod]

Can't give ya much advice Bree, however I was just reading yesterday that Apple is about to introduce a new model priced just under five hundred dollars. Methinks I might like to have one of those.$500 iMac (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0412expo2.html)

[Bella]

That iMac thing looks good, but unfortunately I'm going to need a laptop. I'm going on an extended internship next year - possibly overseas - and I'm going to need some transportable way to communicate with the outside world while I'm gone :D.

[CARLA]

:cool: BREE,

Nothing wrong with Mac's they are worthy of their praise!!! :yup:

I work in the WINDOWS world, we don't have one MAC in the building. But I have used Mac's. :bow: Just can't support both on our Network, it's just that simple..!! :yup:

The IMAC, OR THE POWERBOOKS.. ??? Heck they all look great, I guess it just depends on how much your willing to spend...!!

If your interning somewhere that has a network, check with them for compatability with APPLES (MAC'S). Of course if you going wireless, and it's just for your own use.. it doesn't matter.. :cool:

[seebs]

The powerbook's extra features are pretty arcane, and at least one can be enabled (I'm told) through a software fix.

Unless you need the special screen, I don't think there's much point.

[wade-w]

I work in the WINDOWS world, we don't have one MAC in the building. But I have used Mac's. :bow: Just can't support both on our Network, it's just that simple..!!


Your IT people may not want to deal with it, but it is quite possible to support both on one network.

[CARLA]

WADE-W, GOOD POINT..!!

Well your partly right. Us IT people know it's possible, and could do it NO PROBLEMO !! :yup:

It's the Board, CEO's, and CFO's that have our hands tied. They just aren't comfortable with dual platforms..!! :eek: I really think it is $$$$$, and maybe staffing issues..!! :yup: God forbid they have to pay more IT people...!! They feel we have to much power now...!! :giggle: They are right..!! :cool:

Your IT people may not want to deal with it, but it is quite possible to support both on one network.

[wade-w]

Ah, OK, Carla. That's a very different problem. When I was the sys admin for the math and CS departments at a university, I had to support IBM RS/6000's, Suns, SGI's, wintel boxes and a couple of macs all on the same network.

Bree, if you intern overseas, you will need to check on the power adapter; many countries use different current specs, and you will need to get a converter before you can plug your notebook into the outlets.

[CARLA]

WADE-W :bow: :bow:

I'm impressed. !! :yup: :yup:

Ah, OK, Carla. That's a very different problem. When I was the sys admin for the math and CS departments at a university, I had to support IBM RS/6000's, Suns, SGI's, wintel boxes and a couple of macs all on the same network.

[flufeemunk]

I'm posting from a 14 inch G4 iBook, which I love to bits. The difference between Apple's laptops is thus:

PowerBook:
Better Hardware
METAL (!), yet nonetheless delicate
More Pricey
Good if you want more technical bang overall: Has a lot more functionality with more ports and better processors. Bluetooth not required for wireless mice since the USB ports are not idiotic.

iBook:
Smaller
Longer battery life (I've gotten 6 hours on reduced processor before)
Can take a solid beating (Mine sure has)
Cheaper
Hardware setup is pure evil: There is no microphone jack, and both USB ports are on the left side, which means using most wireless USB mice won't work very well, and a corded one is a pain in the asshole. Definitely order with the Bluetooth module if you want to use a wireless mouse.

If you are travelling, I would suggest the iBook just because it is cheaper and can take more shit than the PowerBook.

Also, it is worth it to shell out for an AirPort card either way. Wireless is nice.

One more thing, it is possible to share networks with Macs and Windows machines. OS X (10.3) allows network access between a Mac and a Windows box.

As to MS Office: Unless you feel comfortable enough with Unix and X Windows to get OpenOffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org/) (which is, all in all, far less intimidating than it seems), shell out the dough.

[seebs]

I just got an iBook because a friend of mine got me the Apple Discount, which got me a damn fine machine for $1200 including the service plan.

Retail service plans are a rip-off. AppleCare isn't. If you get an Apple laptop, just include the $250 as part of the purchase price. My PowerBook that I got in 2000 went through three power supplies (the UFO ones were shit), a screen, two DVD drives, and a battery. Replacement cost woulda been around $1200. That $250 was worth it.

[Bella]

OK, so seeing as we live in the same city, can your friend also get me that Apple discount?

<wink wink>

[Corona688]

Retail service plans are a rip-off. AppleCare isn't. So very, very yes. The level of service my friend gets for his swarm of macs is astounding. But then he's also an official mac tech, so knows all the ways and means.

[seebs]

OK, so seeing as we live in the same city, can your friend also get me that Apple discount?

<wink wink>

Actually, probably yes. The secret discount, called qpromo (quarterly promotion) is basically that whatever models are being phased out, they sell to employees at steep discounts.

So, as soon as the 1.33Ghz iBook G4 showed up, my friend could get a 1.2Ghz iBook G4 with 60GB drive and airport extreme card for $945, while the 1.33's were retailing new for $1,299. Fine by me!

I'll ask him, but I bet I could do that. If all else fails, you could buy it from me.

[Bella]

Dude, you so fuckin' rock.

[seebs]

FWIW, I'm getting a mini-mac, but I can't get the special pricing on that yet. But I'm getting reimbursed and paid to write about it, so it's essentially free. :)

Lemme know when you're looking into this and I can maybe kibitz. I know all sorts of cool tricks, like where to buy memory for normal amounts instead of Apple inflated prices, and I know a good Apple repair place in St. Paul.

[wade-w]

In case you missed it, I just want to reiteratre a point I made in an earlier post. Most European countries run their appliances, etc. on a different current from what we use in the US. This means if your internship is in a foreign country, you will need to make sure you get an adapter for the power system.

[Corona688]

FWIW, I'm getting a mini-mac, but I can't get the special pricing on that yet. But I'm getting reimbursed and paid to write about it, so it's essentially free. :)Yeah, the new mac minis do look real nice. :) I'm betting people don't remember much about the last time apple made a hypercompact home PC like this, though; it was of the class of machines apple enthusiasts have dubbed "road apples".

It was slow, and due to the corners cut to make the machine cheap, it had no fans, and due to it's similar cube shape, couldn't dissipate heat without them. Thusforth they had a tendency to warp, melt, and break unless you had fans installed.

So I'll wait and see just a bit longer. If people are happy with them, I might get one.

[Clutch Munny]

FWIW, I'm getting a mini-mac, but I can't get the special pricing on that yet. But I'm getting reimbursed and paid to write about it, so it's essentially free. :)Yeah, the new mac minis do look real nice. :) I'm betting people don't remember much about the last time apple made a hypercompact home PC like this, though; it was of the class of machines apple enthusiasts have dubbed "road apples".

It was slow, and due to the corners cut to make the machine cheap, it had no fans, and due to it's similar cube shape, couldn't dissipate heat without them. Thusforth they had a tendency to warp, melt, and break unless you had fans installed.

So I'll wait and see just a bit longer. If people are happy with them, I might get one.

You don't mean the G4 Cube, do you? I have one, and never heard anything about overheating. The lack of fan, I thought, was all about the lack of fan noise -- and it's accomplished by extruding the transformer out of the casing and into a separate unit.

[Corona688]

You don't mean the G4 Cube, do you? I have one, and never heard anything about overheating. The lack of fan, I thought, was all about the lack of fan noise -- and it's accomplished by extruding the transformer out of the casing and into a separate unit. Yes, the G4 cubes. The external power supply's a bad idea, imho. If they're fan-cooled, power supplies actually push heat out of your system, not pump it in; they push hot air from inside the computer and the power supply out the back, and cooler air from outside gets sucked in.

The cube's factory configuration provides no airflow, even though they have a vent and internal brackets to fit a standard 80mm case fan; Apple left out the fan to save on costs. Or maybye to save on fan noise, I am pretty cynical. They were banking on an end-user that doesn't keep it running full-tilt all the time, and in general that works, but under a high workload the machine can accumulate unsafe levels of heat. If I were you, I'd get a fan installed where it's supposed to be.

I'm not a mac expert, though I do know one. Happened across this image, asked him what the heck it was about, and he explained in detail.
http://burningsmell.org/spaceheaters.jpg

...by the way, I've just learned the new mac minis have a powerful vortex fan, so they're safe after all. :)

[Clutch Munny]

Huh. Well, I don't know the comparative stats on Cubes and other computers overheating. Mine has run most hours of the day since the fall of 2000, often with a CD in the drive. At a minimum this shows it's possible for a Cube not to overheat under load. No single data point could show any more; nor would anecdotal evidence, of which Google has no shortage.

[Godless Dave]

A friend of mine has a Cube, and had no problems with overheating. I think an external power supply is a good idea (the Mini does the same thing), but you also need cooling for the CPU and graphics card.

Basically the idea behind the Mini is to make a desktop computer out of notebook parts, which overclockers have been doing with PCs for a while (for reasons of cooling rather than size). It's a neat idea which I will probably steal if I ever build my own PC.

[Corona688]

Huh. Well, I don't know the comparative stats on Cubes and other computers overheating. Mine has run most hours of the day since the fall of 2000, often with a CD in the drive. At a minimum this shows it's possible for a Cube not to overheat under load. Modern computers generate far less heat sitting around idle than they do running full-tilt -- and that goes double for macs, where fan noise and power are serious design considerations rather than afterthoughts. Moreover, the average home computer spends a great deal of time idling waiting for hardware, for the network, or for you. That's how programs like seti@home leech CPU time without slowing down your computer, they just use time your computer's wasting anyway.

So unless you're running seti@home all the time it's not under load when you're not using it, and unless you're playing large videos or CPU-hungry games for hours on end it's still not much average load when you are.

Additionally, being fanless means that it depends on the environment for cooling much more than a forced-convection system does. It's not "OMG they're all faulty and burst into flames", they are more sensitive to their environment.No single data point could show any more; nor would anecdotal evidence, of which Google has no shortage. Let your hackles down, please. :P You're acting like I'm saying "OMG MACS SUCK G4 CUBE MELTS LOL LOL LOL". I like macs. I'm saying the G4 cube is less efficient at cooling than PCs in general due to it's fanless design, which has been known to cause problems under high load; and that adding one cheap standard fan, which apple saw fit to provide mountings for despite not providing the fan itself, will fix that outright. Is that really so inconceivable?

PS: My apologies for putting you on the defensive. Perhaps my previous posts were more harshly worded than I intended; this subtopic was SUPPOSED to be a helpful tip, not a dig against Apple.

[Clutch Munny]

Huh. Well, I don't know the comparative stats on Cubes and other computers overheating. Mine has run most hours of the day since the fall of 2000, often with a CD in the drive. At a minimum this shows it's possible for a Cube not to overheat under load. Modern computers generate far less heat sitting around idle than they do running full-tilt -- and that goes double for macs, where fan noise and power are serious design considerations rather than afterthoughts. Moreover, the average home computer spends a great deal of time idling waiting for hardware, for the network, or for you. That's how programs like seti@home leech CPU time without slowing down your computer, they just use time your computer's wasting anyway.

So unless you're running seti@home all the time it's not under load when you're not using it, and unless you're playing large videos or CPU-hungry games for hours on end it's still not much average load when you are.

Yep, well said. Mine is not under load all the time. It's just active a lot, and under load fairly often, sometimes for many hours at a time. But it's not really clear to me what you're arguing against. I didn't mean to say that it's under load every minute of the day, and I hope I didn't say so unintentionally.

Additionally, being fanless means that it depends on the environment for cooling much more than a forced-convection system does. It's not "OMG they're all faulty and burst into flames", they are more sensitive to their environment.

Well, what you said was actually:

it had no fans, and due to it's similar cube shape, couldn't dissipate heat without them. Thusforth they had a tendency to warp, melt, and break unless you had fans installed.

Which is not really "they're sensitive to their environments". :P

I promise I'm hackle-free. My point is, first, that mine at least seems to be able to dissipate heat under the conditions I've used it, and second, that I don't know what the claimed tendency amounts to. I agree that it stands to reason that an electronic device with a fan will stay cooler than one without. But this doesn't show that G4 Cubes overheated with either (i) greater frequency than computers at large or (ii) sufficient frequency to make it a reasonable worry.

No single data point could show any more; nor would anecdotal evidence, of which Google has no shortage. Let your hackles down, please. :P You're acting like I'm saying "OMG MACS SUCK G4 CUBE MELTS LOL LOL LOL".

Sure. Clearly you're not saying that; what you said is quoted above. And clearly I'm not acting as if you said that; what I said was that mine seems okay, and I don't know any good evidence for your general claim. On one hand I was trying to be explicit about the weakness of arguing from my single case, and on the other hand I was observing that I can only find anecdotal evidence for your own initial claim.

Observe the smileys of great calmness: :) :) :)

[Corona688]

liv, CM, do you think it might be a good idea to voluntarily split my g4-cube derail off into it's own thread? It's a decent discussion but only distantly related by this point, and I'm loathe to pollute Bree's thread.Yep, well said. Mine is not under load all the time. It's just active a lot, and under load fairly often, sometimes for many hours at a time. But it's not really clear to me what you're arguing against. I didn't mean to say that it's under load every minute of the day, and I hope I didn't say so unintentionally. Nope, just making sure we're speaking the same language. I've been known to argue for hours with people I turn out to agree with sometimes :DAdditionally, being fanless means that it depends on the environment for cooling much more than a forced-convection system does. It's not "OMG they're all faulty and burst into flames", they are more sensitive to their environment.

Well, what you said was actually:

it had no fans, and due to it's similar cube shape, couldn't dissipate heat without them. Thusforth they had a tendency to warp, melt, and break unless you had fans installed.

Which is not really "they're sensitive to their environments". :P Indeed. That wasn't a restatement, it's a further elaboration on why they have this tendency, and why it doesn't always come up.I promise I'm hackle-free. Kay, good.My point is, first, that mine at least seems to be able to dissipate heat under the conditions I've used it, and second, that I don't know what the claimed tendency amounts to. Indeed it does, whatever you're doing keep doing it. I'm certain that if I tried to use one of these things sans fan in my room, though, it'd be dead in a week. When they built this house they somehow forgot to put an air-return vent in the wall anywhere in my room. My system's fans keep air moving enough to keep it cool, but natural convection doesn't do a thing.I agree that it stands to reason that an electronic device with a fan will stay cooler than one without. But this doesn't show that G4 Cubes overheated with either (i) greater frequency than computers at large or (ii) sufficient frequency to make it a reasonable worry.(ia) I haven't had any of my pc's ever overheat, warp, and buckle on me; I expect that I can trust them to not do that unless something's gone seriously wrong.
(ib) The g4 cube has brackets for a fan, but no fan. Why would they devote space for one in such a compact machine when it doesn't need it? :detect:
(ic) Reports of buckled/melted plastic case often correspond with upgrading the video card. From this I infer that there is no excess capacity for cooling in a g4 cube; Apple appears to have redlined it. Safety margins are a good thing.
(ii) This mac expert I know is in fact a registered Apple technician. I can't expect you to take my word for it, but he's demonstrated to me many times he has mastery of his field. So I trust his experience when he tells me the g4 cube has this tendency.

Lastly, I've relearned my lesson on "better safe than sorry" more times than I'd like to admit, I didn't just happen to name my site 'burningsmell'. A standard case fan is far cheaper than replacement parts for a model no longer in production.

[Clutch Munny]

Fair enough. Perhaps mine is getting good ambient air currents; in any case I really like the quiet. I don't think I'll bother with a fan after 4 years of pretty serious use.

If it melts down, I solemnly swear to 'fess up, though.

[John Carter]

I'm not overly familiar with macs, but in general ambient air flow is an important consideration when considering where to put a computer. In most cases of chronic overheating, lack of proper ventilation is a factor. This is sometimes exacerbated by poorly designed computer desks that have the case locked away in a small, poorly ventilated compartment. With a system that has no cooling fan, this consideration would be even more important.

[seebs]

I have a desk with a place for a computer, and sure enough, if you actually close the door on that cabinet, it overheats. Duh.

Anyway, my minimac has been shipped, from Shenzhen China, and should be here maybe in a week or so. I hope so; I am supposed to write articles about it, and ideally, I'd have one done in time for LinuxWorld.