Satish Kumar

[Socratoad]

I just finished listening to th CBC radio program called ideas. the hour was about the ideas,values and philosophy of Satish Kumar.

Its been one of the most enjoyable thought provoking programs I've heard in a very long time.

Now it just happens that his values correspond with mine to a tee.

I have thought alone the same lines as this guy for years. In fact te book that I'm supposed to finish writing is about the very issues and values he speaks of. However he has developed his thoughts along these lines far further than have I. Please he certainly is able to express his ideas much better than I ever have.

A view he holds and expressed on this program was and I quote"
"The problem is not poverty; the problem is affluence."

Now such a statement is beyond the comprehension of vast percentage of western minds. He did go on at some length explaining exactly how he came to this conclusion.

Anybody heard of this man or read any of his works? He lives in Devon England.
I googled him and there seems to be quite alot about him there. I cannot understand how considering my most cherished interests, well second most cherished, I never heard of him before.

Thoughts or rock throwing. Step right up.

[seebs]

Interesting soundbite. I don't think it's quite true, but then, I don't think it's quite false. Certainly, affluence can be a very serious problem.

[Socratoad]

Its too late and I'm too tired (again) to be able to go into it in a very meaningful way. As I mentioned its a concept that is hard for our western minds to grasp. However if I understand correctly everything being relative if there were not so much affluence there also would be much less poverty, or more correctly perhaps poverty would have a new meaning. Its not really about distribution of the spoils, its more about the banishment of acquisitiveness and envy through a personal change in values. It sort of related to those who follow the living simply movement but with a global aspect.

I do know that no other speaker has so exciting my thinking process in many years. Perhaps more later.

[seebs]

He's not the first to have these thoughts. Look at Quaker traditions of simplicity, for instance. As someone currently trying to learn not to buy so many shiny toys... It's hard, and I'm not even sure why it's hard. I know these things don't really make me happy in the long run. So why do I get 'em?

[Socratoad]

I pretty well gave up the shiny toy syndrome away back in 1978. Before that I had been into iy bigtime, name it, I seemed to think I needed it. The capitalist system would not be able to function if it was unable to instill in people the successful combination of envy and that ever gnawing sense of slight discontent that there is some shiny new toy somewhere that one does not yet possess. IMO its a not so subtle system of enslavement. Ever notice just how short a time line there is between entrance into the market of a to shiny new superfluous toy until it becomes a must-have in the minds of Homo consumens everywhere.

Whenever I begin to think aloud on this subject some person or other invariably defends their own obsession with everything new and shiny by gleefully pointing out to me that I have a puter. Well yes I do have a puter, obviously, this puter is my lifeline to the world, my research tool, my library, my entertainment and so many other things, however in order to try to keep from being nickeled and dimed to death (enslaved) I do not own either a TV or a telephone.

Just a small peek through the lense of a Toads eye view of the world. However I'm not an evangelist, so please feel free to get out yer plastic and sally forth. I'm sure something new is hitting the shelves at this very moment. :yup:

[viscousmemories]

The capitalist system would not be able to function if it was unable to instill in people the successful combination of envy and that ever gnawing sense of slight discontent that there is some shiny new toy somewhere that one does not yet possess. IMO its a not so subtle system of enslavement. Ever notice just how short a time line there is between entrance into the market of a to shiny new superfluous toy until it becomes a must-have in the minds of Homo consumens everywhere.
These sort of virulent anti-consumerist comments always remind me of the Unabomber's Manifesto. Have you read it and/or do you have any opinion on it? I personally found a lot of it made intuitive sense, but that scares me more than it comforts me. :)

[Socratoad]

The capitalist system would not be able to function if it was unable to instill in people the successful combination of envy and that ever gnawing sense of slight discontent that there is some shiny new toy somewhere that one does not yet possess. IMO its a not so subtle system of enslavement. Ever notice just how short a time line there is between entrance into the market of a to shiny new superfluous toy until it becomes a must-have in the minds of Homo consumens everywhere.
These sort of virulent anti-consumerist comments always remind me of the Unabomber's Manifesto. Have you read it and/or do you have any opinion on it? I personally found a lot of it made intuitive sense, but that scares me more than it comforts me. :)

Have I read what vm? those are my words, nobody else's and please be assure that I've never even remotely considered resorting to violence. I really thought that I made it very clear that I have chosen to live that way, and that I was not evangelizing. I am just presenting my value system and inviting comment. Revolutions, except those of the mind, tend to eat there own children.


Perhaps I intentionally led you to believe that I was quoting those words from Satish Kumar. Sorry to disappoint, those are from the mind of the Toad.

Besides that Satish Kumar is about as close in thinking to the Una -bomber ass George Bush is to Mohandas Gandhi, as is mine

[viscousmemories]

I'm not sure what you mean, Socratoad. I meant that your words, which I quoted, reminded me of the Unabomber's Manifesto. For example this part:

For example, it would be bad strategy for the revolutionaries to condemn Americans for their habits of consumption. Instead, the average American should be portrayed as a victim of the advertising and marketing industry, which has suckered him into buying a lot of junk that he doesn't need and that is very poor compensation for his lost freedom. Either approach is consistent with the facts.
But despite the similarity I am not accusing you of being a terrorist. In fact I thought I made that clear by saying that I also find some the views in that manifesto compelling and ending my comment with a smilie.

Oh, and I'm not a terrorist either.

[Socratoad]

But Tom you said that the words scare you a little. My words or the words in the Unibombers manifesto. I'm not the lest bit interested in his manifesto. I'm not interested in any manifestos. The whole concept of manifestos leaves me cold. they are just too damned melodramatic and IMO all about power. Whereas I'm about seeking different values or if you wish different ways of living.
Also that is why I said that the only revolutions I'm interested in are revolutions of the mind. An individual deciding on his/her own that there is something very wrong and making changes in their own lives. If one should happen to find those of like mind then thats one hell of a bonus, if not, then having the courage to seek serenity outside or perhaps parallel to the prevailing system.

I'm sorry that I somehow missed the smilie.

I do tend to get quite intense on subjects like this as they speak to me as no other.

[viscousmemories]

But Tom you said that the words scare you a little. My words or the words in the Unibombers manifesto.
I didn't say the words scared me, I said the fact that I find some of the Unabomber's views compelling scares me. But in any case I was being facetious; implying that I might have a little Unabomber in me because my views on some things are similar to his. I'm not really scared at all. :)
I'm not the lest bit interested in his manifesto. I'm not interested in any manifestos. The whole concept of manifestos leaves me cold. they are just too damned melodramatic and IMO all about power. Whereas I'm about seeking different values or if you wish different ways of living.
Well I share your repulsion for manifestos in principle, but I am also all about seeking different values and different ways of living, to the extent that I'm willing to look anywhere to find them. I read the Unabomber's Manifesto start to finish the minute it became available because I wanted the perspective of someone who had intentionally isolated himself from conventional society.

Also that is why I said that the only revolutions I'm interested in are revolutions of the mind. An individual deciding on his/her own that there is something very wrong and making changes in their own lives. If one should happen to find those of like mind then thats one hell of a bonus, if not, then having the courage to seek serenity outside or perhaps parallel to the prevailing system.
If you want to explore a radical revolution of the mind, look no further than the brilliant English professor turned serial killer. It doesn't get much more radical or revolutionary than that. Nevertheless, in my amateur opinion most of the manifesto is nonsense, despite the fact that some of his observations about society are identical to some of my own.

I'm sorry that I somehow missed the smilie.

I do tend to get quite intense on subjects like this as they speak to me as no other.
I've yet to see you post on a topic you didn't get quite intense about. ;)

[wade-w]

If you want to explore a radical revolution of the mind, look no further than the brilliant English professor turned serial killer. It doesn't get much more radical or revolutionary than that. Nevertheless, in my amateur opinion most of the manifesto is nonsense, despite the fact that some of his observations about society are identical to some of my own.


<nitpoick>
If you're talking about the Unabomber here, he was a Math Professor, not an English professor.
</nitpick>

[viscousmemories]

<nitpoick>
If you're talking about the Unabomber here, he was a Math Professor, not an English professor.
</nitpick>
Really? Huh. I didn't realize that. Well was he brilliant anyway?

[wade-w]

I don't know how brilliant he was per se. IIRC, he was hired as a tenure track assistant professor at UC Berkeley, which is one of the top Mathematics departments in the US. That's indicative that the potential for brilliance was there.

[viscousmemories]

Ah, okay. I thought I remembered reading a bio at one point in time that gave me the impression he was a remarkably intelligent guy, I just didn't remember any details.

Anyway sorry for the derailing, Socratoad. I wish I had more to say about Satish Kumar but alas I know very little about environmental activism, truth be told.

[Socratoad]

Ah, okay. I thought I remembered reading a bio at one point in time that gave me the impression he was a remarkably intelligent guy, I just didn't remember any details.

Anyway sorry for the derailing, Socratoad. I wish I had more to say about Satish Kumar but alas I know very little about environmental activism, truth be told.

Not to worry :P