Do You Ever Think About Your Own Mortality?

[freemonkey]

I don't mean for this thread to be overly morbid, I'm just curious about how others think about the fact that they will die someday.

When I was a child I would lay awake at night, full of anxiety, thinking about infinity vs. the end of the world. Not only of how my world would end with me, but how the rest of the world would end some day (and then what? And then what? And then what? ad infinitum) and there was nothing I could do about it. Eventually I learned to stop thinking about that, and vowed that I would become someone who would leave something important in the world.

As I got older I rarely thought about death at all, mine or anyone else's. Even when someone I knew died, it was all very simple for me... you live, then you die. I remember wishing (to the point of almost believing it) that reincarnation was for real, and that we all got many chances to do it again. There were times when I became ill, and thoughts that I could die came to me. Still, I pushed those thoughts aside, "I won't die yet, I still have too much to do".

Fast forward to a couple years ago, I'm in my 40's. I realize my life is probably about half over, and while I've accomplished some of the things I set out to do, I'm nowhere near where I'd hoped I'd be. Add to that everyday stress, health issues, loved ones' health issues, more life experience, tons more things added to my "things-I'd like-to-do-before-I-die" list and whatever else you can think of. I wake up one morning thinking "I'm going to die some day". But this time, it's not some abstract, matter-of-fact thought. This is real. There will come a day when the world will be over for me, and like so many billions before me, it will be like I was never here. As little as 5 years ago, I sort of comforted myself with the "life/matter/energy cycle" when other people died, but I can't seem find that comfort when I apply it to MY LIFE. I can't imagine the world without me in it. :afraid: I know life goes on, but I want to be there.

This is very hard. I don't obsess every minute of every day, but I do know that the quality of my life is diminished when I dwell on what I have not done yet.

Serendipitously, I've seen a couple movies (for the first time, if you can believe it) in recent weeks Fight Club and Ikiru (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044741/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD0xfHBuPTB8c291cmNlaWQ9bW96aWxsYS1zZWFyY2h8cT1pa2lydXxodG1sPTF8bm09MQ__;fc=1;ft=9;fm=1), among other things. Maybe this (along with addressing some other issues) is why I've been wanting to talk about this now, instead of wondering why I'm thinking such morbid thoughts, and trying to ignore myself. Maybe I'm ready to accept that kick in the ass I've been needing.

Still, part of me wonders if life is just not a whole series of ways to spend time until we die, and I can't decide if thats a good thing or a bad thing.

So what about you? Do you ever think about this kind of thing? Have you always? Do you/have you believe(d) in an afterlife of some kind? Reincarnation? Are you just naturally more pragmatic and accepting of the facts of living and dying (as I thought I was as a young adult)?

Didn't know where to put this, so move it if you need to.

[Ymir's blood]

I have had thoughts of suicide for most of the last twenty years. Death is never very far from my mind. While a teenager, I was certain death would claim me before the age of thirty. Life has always dragged, surely it couldn't last so long as that? Now that thirty has come and gone, my desire to die isn't as strong. The idea of living for a long time still isn't appealing but not as terrifying. This is probably due to a lot of soul searching and a lot of temporal separation from the miseries of childhood.

I've never had any belief in an afterlife. The idea is pretty abhorrent to me, actually. In many ways I think the only reason most people believe in one is fear of the alternative. Regardless, the idea has no appeal to me and has always seemed ridiculous. I am not a soul trapped in flesh, I am the flesh. On a message board once, someone started a thread asking what people thought happened after death. My response was one word, "Decomposition."

I don't know where this question comes from, but it appealed to me. "Where does the flame go when the candle is snuffed out?"

[godfry n. glad]

I think of it daily.

Of course, I'm past 50 and lost my wife to cancer fairly recently, so it's not surprising.

Prior to her death, I'd say I pondered my mortality a couple times a year. One I remember lucidly was a glorious late spring day, sunny with white puffy clouds in the sky, temperatures comfortable for light dress outdoors, and much of my garden abloom...I remember thinking "I could die now, happy knowing I'd accomplished something decent with my life."

I've been dating a widow of late and we get along quite well because our approaches to how we grieve are very similar. But I've noticed that it casts a interesting shadow across the relationship. We both know that if the relationship is a success, one of us will watch the other die. It's a perspective which never entered my mind twenty years ago. I have yet to come to grips with it.

godfry

:clouds:

[godfry n. glad]

Afterlife? It didn't even occur to me.

godfry

[Ex-zombie]

As I deconverted from Christianity the thought that I was going to die freaked me out. Now several years later I find that I'm not afraid, I just feel saddened by it. I won't be around for my children. I won't get to see how things turn out. But I agree with Ymir's blood about an afterlife. It holds no appeal for me. I have lived my life and I have no interest in seeing it go on indefinitely.

[viscousmemories]

My first attempt at a reply turned into a page long autobiographical story, so I decided I'll just try to wing something a little more off-the-cuff...

Still, part of me wonders if life is just not a whole series of ways to spend time until we die, and I can't decide if thats a good thing or a bad thing.
To the best of my knowledge that's all it is, and I think it has good and bad qualities.

On the good side, It helps me feel less guilty about not doing or having done more for others or myself.

But on the bad side, I find the concept of non-existence terrifying. Y'know how sometimes when you wake up in the morning it feels like you slept for days, and other times it feels like you slept for minutes? Well what's it feel like when you never wake up?

[wade-w]

My thoughts on the matter are much like Ymir's blood's, with the exception that I never gave suicide much thought until the last 4 or 5 years or so. It's been on my mind a lot lately though.


But on the bad side, I find the concept of non-existence terrifying. Y'know how sometimes when you wake up in the morning it feels like you slept for days, and other times it feels like you slept for minutes? Well what's it feel like when you never wake up?

I'm told that everyone dreams, but I never remember mine. Every few years I might have a vague feeling that I had a dream, but that's it. For me, sleeping and then waking is like someone flipped a switch and it's a few hours later. I imagine death would be like that. Also, how could non-existence feel like anything? Did it feel like something before you were born?

[Farren]

The thing I fear most is a slow descent to death, Remembering how my great grandmother slowly lost all memory of the ones she loved makes me fear that, partially for my sake and partially for the sake of those around me. Which is why I'm 100% supportive of voluntary euthanasia.

As far as death itself is concerned, I've found a fair amount of comfort in certain ideas. One is that ego is a temporary condition of matter, but energy is neither created nor destroyed. Our ego dies, nothing else. Understanding one's extended state as an intimately interconnected part of a far larger consciousness and, indeed, experiencing that makes me believe that a part of us is, in fact, left behind.

One may disparagingly consider memories as not really being "you", as such, but I feel that's most our ego really is - our memories. Having seen the slow rot of the brain that afflicts some of the elderly I'm convinced that when one's memories start to dissapate, ones ego does to. Its a kind of living death, for those who see the ego alone as the individual.

But if one comes to understand "me" to mean a ripple in the fabric of society, the ecology, the universe as a whole, then it follows that the memory of me, the effects of me, the ever-spreading waveform that continues long after the ego has disappeared is, in fact "me" in a very real sense. I find solace in this.

One may feel that such a ripple has no conscious direction, without the driving force of an ego. But examining myself I see that the motive force that I do have is informed at every point by my physical, sensory and symbolic memories. That past ideas give rise to new ideas, past actions to new actions and so on.

It appears the wave behaves in the same manner even after its left my immediate physical vicinity. So in a qualitative sense it has the same living, dynamic quality in the broader universe that it does within the dominion the ego considers its own. Some go so far as to suggest memes are really the substance of consciousness and humans simply the meat computers that facilitate them.

I also strongly feel you can experience extended consciousness simply by recognising it when it happens, which it does all the time. When conversing or simply doing stuff with close friends, where no tactful reserve and such is required, the "I" just disappears and is replaced entirely by "we". Similarly, sometimes when I'm hugging and stroking my dogs or massaging a friend, it seems like we're a single extended lump of flesh.

I think the Japanese have a word for this concept of "soul in the world", but I can't recall it right now.

[LadyShea]

I never really think about it at all, until I read threads like this. Even then, I can't really feel it within myself in that I have no anxiety or fear of my mortality. That doesn't mean I am not cautious...I don't want to die of course, but the fact that I will doesn't bother me.

[Dragar]

As a child, I used to lie awake in bed and feel my heart beating. And I would think, "If this stops, I'm dead." So fragile, this little muscle fluttering in my chest. I often considered how long I would have, if it stopped. A minute, maybe two? Would that be enough to jump out of bed and tell my parents I loved them? I think my parents must have found me in tears at least once, due to thoughts of this nature.

And so, I would go through my days pushing the thought 'I will one day die' to the back of my mind, finding things to distract me from it. Anything. Very silly!

Now, I make a point of thinking about death at least once a day. That I will die, as well as how all my friends, family, everyone I will ever know, my (possible) future children...everyone. I find it makes me appreciate everything more. That it is here, now. That I am here, now, to appreciate it. How wonderful existence is.

Breathe in.

Breathe out.

Wasn't that amazing?

I especially enjoyed Farren's post. I must admit, I don't think that there is any 'I' to really die (though the illusion is persistent). Someone else said above, "I am not a soul trapped in flesh, I am the flesh." I view it in a similar but not identical way.

I am not a soul, trapped in a body, all mixed up in a big scary universe. That thing I'm mixed up in? That's me!

[Adora]

Still, part of me wonders if life is just not a whole series of ways to spend time until we die, and I can't decide if thats a good thing or a bad thing.
Maybe it's neither. Maybe it just is.

Do you ever think about this kind of thing?
Yep.

Have you always?
Not quite as morbidly as you, but I was always aware that human beings die, and that this is a requisite for our existence.

Do you/have you believe(d) in an afterlife of some kind? Reincarnation?
Nope.

Are you just naturally more pragmatic and accepting of the facts of living and dying (as I thought I was as a young adult)?
I guess. I mean, I understand that if humans are not mortal, we will not create. If we don't create, well, we may as well be simple single-celled ameobas. If we don't die, we don't laugh either, and how sad would life be without laughter. What would be the point of living forever then?

To me, death is neither good or bad. It just is. It's just this point where humans say "That's where my existence as I know it ends, because my mental identity ends when my brain shuts down to a point permanently". You still continue to exist in many forms though. Your body still exists, as it decomposes, as it becomes other forms of energy. Everything you did during your life, no matter how small and insignificant, leaves an imprint on the universe. On a larger scale, as long as there's people who remember you, you still continue to exist as a memory.

I know it's the thought that I will one day die that drives me on to create and do whatever I do day to day. I know it's the unconscious knowledge of our fragile and futile existence in the universe that makes me laugh. So as to me, death is neither good nor bad. It's just... death. Y'know, the Reaper just doing their job, and all. *shrugs*

[viscousmemories]

I'm told that everyone dreams, but I never remember mine. Every few years I might have a vague feeling that I had a dream, but that's it. For me, sleeping and then waking is like someone flipped a switch and it's a few hours later. I imagine death would be like that.
That's exactly how I imagine it, except that nobody will ever flip the switch. Ever. For the rest of eternity. A few minutes of thinking about that and I start feeling literally awash in fear, crushed under the weight of impending desolation like nothing I've ever known. And like Dragar I think about it every single day. (Except for some reason it seems to cheer him...)

Also, how could non-existence feel like anything? Did it feel like something before you were born?
Exactly! What's it like not to feel anything at all, ever again, for eternity? What experience have you ever had that you can remotely relate that to?

[wade-w]

But you won't be aware of it, vm. There is no experience to compare it to because it's not an experience. IOW, there is no "you" there anymore to know or experience anything.

It doesn't bother me; I'm far more terrified by the idea of eternal life. Now there's a scary thought!

[seebs]

Yes. It's scary, but it's the kind of scary you can't do anything about. I have no real response to it, although obviously, I oughta be starting to do things like make sure I have a viable will in order...

[viscousmemories]

But you won't be aware of it, vm. There is no experience to compare it to because it's not an experience. IOW, there is no "you" there anymore to know or experience anything.
I know! That is precisely what is so unnerving about it. I've tried to explain this to people many times and nobody seems as disturbed by it as I am. The very idea that I will one day cease to be is ... I honestly don't think I can do it justice with words. It's just indescribably unsettling.

It doesn't bother me; I'm far more terrified by the idea of eternal life. Now there's a scary thought!
I wouldn't want to live the life I have now eternally, that's for sure. But if I were immortal I think I'd have a much more interesting and exciting life, since I would be much more prone to take risks than I am currently. As for eternal life on another plane... I can't say that scares me because I don't believe in it, but with one firey exception most of the alternatives sound interesting enough.

[freemonkey]

Thanks for your replies. Its all very interesting.

But if one comes to understand "me" to mean a ripple in the fabric of society, the ecology, the universe as a whole, then it follows that the memory of me, the effects of me, the ever-spreading waveform that continues long after the ego has disappeared is, in fact "me" in a very real sense. I find solace in this.

One may feel that such a ripple has no conscious direction, without the driving force of an ego. But examining myself I see that the motive force that I do have is informed at every point by my physical, sensory and symbolic memories. That past ideas give rise to new ideas, past actions to new actions and so on.
This is how I want to think of "me", my life, my eventual death. At some points in my life I've pretty much achieved that sense of it all.

I know that "no longer alive" means just that. I suspect it will feel the same as it does when I'm asleep and not dreaming; no pain, no thought, no fear, nothing. I guess I'm OK with that. I get that.

I don't know, maybe I'm more concerned with what I've neglected to do in/with my life yet. For whatever reason - lack of funds/knowledge/courage/time; indecision; cirmcumstance, etc., there are so many things I've failed to accomplish. Not that I feel like I've accomplished nothing, because I've done some good stuff. And honestly, there's a TON of stuff I've always wanted to do.

[wade-w]

We are talking about eternity here. Once you've done everything there is to do along with all variations thereof to the point that you are bored to tears, and then do it all over again a trillion times, you will still have just as much time left as you did when you started.

[freemonkey]

I know! That is precisely what is so unnerving about it. I've tried to explain this to people many times and nobody seems as disturbed by it as I am. The very idea that I will one day cease to be is ... I honestly don't think I can do it justice with words. It's just indescribably unsettling.
FWIW, I get it.
I wouldn't want to live the life I have now eternally, that's for sure. But if I were immortal I think I'd have a much more interesting and exciting life, since I would be much more prone to take risks than I am currently.
This is the conundrum. In this life there are limitations (real and/or imagined). In the next life, those limitations would be gone, we'd get another chance.

[viscousmemories]

I don't know, maybe I'm more concerned with what I've neglected to do in/with my life yet. For whatever reason - lack of funds/knowledge/courage/time; indecision; cirmcumstance, etc., there are so many things I've failed to accomplish. Not that I feel like I've accomplished nothing, because I've done some good stuff. And honestly, there's a TON of stuff I've always wanted to do.
I guess if you embrace the ripple philosophy your concern should not be what you accomplish, but how many waves you make in the process. I may not have accomplished anything, but I've made a lot of waves. :)

We are talking about eternity here. Once you've done everything there is to do along with all variations thereof to the point that you are bored to tears, and then do it all over again a trillion times, you will still have just as much time left as you did when you started.
I don't think I could ever get tired of meeting new women. :D

[wildernesse]

I have never been extremely bothered by the fact that one day I will end--I'm sad that I will leave behind people who love me and will have to continue going on without me. But the idea of having ended doesn't bother me a bit.

Not that I want to die, and I really don't want a horrible or painful death. I worry about the dying part a lot more than the dead part--I don't want to drown, for instance.

I don't have any knowledge about what happens after we die--I don't believe in eternal punishment, and I'm pretty much on the fence as to eternal life that is either wonderful or mediocre. When I read the CNN article about Rosemary Kennedy, where the family's statement is that they believe that she is reunited with her parents and siblings--well, I think that's lovely. But I don't really know that this happens. The same sorts of sentiments were expressed when my grandmother died--especially that she would be able to be with her brother who died when he was in his 20's, whom she loved so very much. I know that would be wonderful for her--but really the only thing I could think of, and especially after visitation, was that she was Gone. The End, Lights Out, etc. Just finality.

My grandmother's brother also died last week--and that has brought a realization that a generation is passing away. The life cycle is continuing. One day I will be in my father's position--and that will be hard, but that is how it is.

And you know what? That's ok.

[freemonkey]

I guess if you embrace the ripple philosophy your concern should not be what you accomplish, but how many waves you make in the process. I may not have accomplished anything, but I've made a lot of waves. :)
Yes, good point. Possibly my ego is getting in the way?

[LadyShea]

But if I were immortal I think I'd have a much more interesting and exciting life, since I would be much more prone to take risks than I am currently.

If you were immortal there would be no such thing as "risk". The whole point of taking risks is because it's exciting. What would be exciting or new or slightly dangerous and therefore exhilirating if you could do it forever?

[freemonkey]

It looks like someone else is struggling with similar thoughts, but in a different way. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=111434)

[Socratoad]

I have a lot to say on this subject but the hour is late and the brain is weary so for now I shall just jot down a thought or two.

One should endeavor to live every day as if it were one's last. That does not mean frenetically rushing about trying to cram yet one more thing into the day, but rather by being as serene and loving person as one can be, As an agnostic atheist I cannot prove one way or another that their is an afterlife but I choose to do the right thing anyway for the simple reason that death will be more easily approached with a clear conscience just as surely as a good nights sleep is.

Instead of the narcissistic why me approach when thinking of death why not me? Surely its the height of narcissistic immaturity for me to think that my life is any more important than that of a small child who has been washed out to sea in S.E. Asia or any other unfortunate person or even sentient creature anywhere.

Now I better shut up before my overtired mind stuffs my foot firmly in my mouth.

More later, and hopefully with more clarity

[freemonkey]

Instead of the narcissistic why me approach when thinking of death why not me? Surely its the height of narcissistic immaturity for me to think that my life is any more important than that of a small child who has been washed out to sea in S.E. Asia or any other unfortunate person or even sentient creature anywhere.
This has crossed my mind, too. I am no different than any other living being, in that I was born, I live and I will die.

[viscousmemories]

If you were immortal there would be no such thing as "risk". The whole point of taking risks is because it's exciting. What would be exciting or new or slightly dangerous and therefore exhilirating if you could do it forever?
I didn't mean like skydiving, I meant like going on an African safari. It carries some risk (read: more than staying at home) but the thrill is in the activity, not the risk. Right now about the biggest risk I'm up for is eating a lot of sweets.

[Ray]

I tend to think about mortality rather often. The fact that I will die doesn't bother me, exactly, but I am rather upset that I won't get to see how things turn out.

[seebs]

Maybe your friends think I'm just a stranger
My face you never will see no more
But there is one promise that is given
I'll meet you on God's golden shore.

If I were particularly convinced of the afterlife, I would find this very comforting. As is... It's still pretty.

[livius drusus]

I tend to think about mortality rather often. The fact that I will die doesn't bother me, exactly, but I am rather upset that I won't get to see how things turn out.

Me too. :yup:

[LadyShea]

If you were immortal there would be no such thing as "risk". The whole point of taking risks is because it's exciting. What would be exciting or new or slightly dangerous and therefore exhilirating if you could do it forever?
I didn't mean like skydiving, I meant like going on an African safari. It carries some risk (read: more than staying at home) but the thrill is in the activity, not the risk. Right now about the biggest risk I'm up for is eating a lot of sweets.


Right, but what thrill would there be if you could go on safari a million times? Hell you could live on safari for a millenia then move on. An African Safari is on my list of things I would like to do in this life, because it would be a once in a lifetime experience. If you were immortal, there would be no motivation to do anything at all, ever, because you have unlimited time to do it.

I would think immortality would lead people to beg for pain or something just to relieve the tedium. Maybe you wish you could live an extended life, 200 years or so, but immortality, that scares me more than the thought of death.

[viscousmemories]

Right, but what thrill would there be if you could go on safari a million times? Hell you could live on safari for a millenia then move on. An African Safari is on my list of things I would like to do in this life, because it would be a once in a lifetime experience. If you were immortal, there would be no motivation to do anything at all, ever, because you have unlimited time to do it.
See I really don't understand that. My interest in going on an African safari is no more because it's a once-in-a-lifetime thrill than it is because it's a risk. I'd like to do it because I'd like to have that experience. I'd like to see that terrain, climate, animal life, etc. I think it would be beautiful and exciting in itself. It doesn't have to be a risky or singularly unique experience for me to enjoy it. Hell, I could eat ice cream every day. I might get sick of it temporarily, but it's not like I'm ever going to go "Ice cream? Nah... been there done that."

I would think immortality would lead people to beg for pain or something just to relieve the tedium. Maybe you wish you could live an extended life, 200 years or so, but immortality, that scares me more than the thought of death.
Who said anything about no pain? Hell, what if you piss off the government and your butt ends up in solitary confinement - no way out, ever? :eek:

But keep in mind also, the Earth is going to change dramatically over the next few millions of years. Even if you get bored of going on safari every other month for a few thousand years, it's not as if there won't be plenty of changes to keep you amused. Of course that does make me think... if you were truly immortal wouldn't you continue to exist after the sun superheats and disintegrates all other life on Earth? Damn that would suck...

[LadyShea]

See I really don't understand that. My interest in going on an African safari is no more because it's a once-in-a-lifetime thrill than it is because it's a risk. I'd like to do it because I'd like to have that experience. I'd like to see that terrain, climate, animal life, etc. I think it would be beautiful and exciting in itself. It doesn't have to be a risky or singularly unique experience for me to enjoy it. Hell, I could eat ice cream every day. I might get sick of it temporarily, but it's not like I'm ever going to go "Ice cream? Nah... been there done that."

But FOREVER? I think the finiteness of our lives is what makes any experience worthwhile. In my head, immortality would make life devoid of pleasure.


Who said anything about no pain?

Pain evolved as a warning system to enhance survivability. No death=no need for pain.

Hell, what if you piss off the government and your butt ends up in solitary confinement - no way out, ever? :eek:

I posit it would make little difference. Eternal existence, to me, would make "life" as unimportant as nonexistence.

But keep in mind also, the Earth is going to change dramatically over the next few millions of years. Even if you get bored of going on safari every other month for a few thousand years, it's not as if there won't be plenty of changes to keep you amused. Of course that does make me think... if you were truly immortal wouldn't you continue to exist after the sun superheats and disintegrates all other life on Earth? Damn that would suck...

But again, eternity. Why would you care about changes?

[viscousmemories]

But FOREVER? I think the finiteness of our lives is what makes any experience worthwhile. In my head, immortality would make life devoid of pleasure.
I like ice cream because it tastes good, not because one day I won't be able to have it anymore.

Pain evolved as a warning system to enhance survivability. No death=no need for pain.
I thought we were talking ourselves - as we are today - becoming immortal. Right now I feel pain, so I don't have any reason to believe that I'd stop feeling pain if I were immortal.

I posit it would make little difference. Eternal existence, to me, would make "life" as unimportant as nonexistence.
You can't see any difference between an eternity in solitary confinement and an eternity free to explore and experience everything in the world?

But again, eternity. Why would you care about changes?
Um, because like above the only possible reason I would want to live forever is to explore and experience the world, and if it never changed it would get boring a lot more quickly.

[LadyShea]

I like ice cream because it tastes good, not because one day I won't be able to have it anymore.

I still think that things like "tastes good" would become meaningless after hundreds of years. But we obviously think differently, that makes life interesting as well.


I thought we were talking ourselves - as we are today - becoming immortal. Right now I feel pain, so I don't have any reason to believe that I'd stop feeling pain if I were immortal.

Oh. So you're saying if you were offered a magical pill of immortality, today, you would take it? I still think eventually you would purposfully cause yourself pain, that it would become pleasure, as everything else would be meaningless.


You can't see any difference between an eternity in solitary confinement and an eternity free to explore and experience everything in the world?

Think of something you've experienced every day of your life...to the point you don't even think about it anymore let alone take pleasure in the experience. Breathing, sunsets, bowel movements, whatever. I think EVERY experience would eventually become like that.

Um, because like above the only possible reason I would want to live forever is to explore and experience the world, and if it never changed it would get boring a lot more quickly.

But why do you need immortality to experience and explore the world? If you don't do it now, why would you do it if you had eternity? What would be your motivation?

[Ray]

But FOREVER? I think the finiteness of our lives is what makes any experience worthwhile. In my head, immortality would make life devoid of pleasure.
Of course, immortality would also give us an infinite amount of time for scientific advancement, and with enough study of the brain, we would likely develop the ability to erase specific memories, and therefore could relive the novelty of various events.

[viscousmemories]

I still think that things like "tastes good" would become meaningless after hundreds of years. But we obviously think differently, that makes life interesting as well.
Hmm. Well I suppose that's possible. I guess I can imagine getting to a point where I've had every imaginable kind of food so many millions of times that nothing is really particularly appealing anymore. That's an interesting point.

Oh. So you're saying if you were offered a magical pill of immortality, today, you would take it? I still think eventually you would purposfully cause yourself pain, that it would become pleasure, as everything else would be meaningless.
Whoa, there! I didn't say I would, I just said it would be tempting. Don't go signing me up for any cosmic eternal torment just yet.

Think of something you've experienced every day of your life...to the point you don't even think about it anymore let alone take pleasure in the experience. Breathing, sunsets, bowel movements, whatever. I think EVERY experience would eventually become like that.
Yeah, now I'm beginning to see your point. I dunno, though. I still kind of think evolution would change that. Our diets today are drastically different from the diets people had just 100 years ago. A million years from now your whole diet would probaby be based on organisms that don't currently exist. Oh and another thing... learning. Imagine having an eternity to learn! You'd be able to play every musical instrument, speak every language, etc. :yup:

But why do you need immortality to experience and explore the world? If you don't do it now, why would you do it if you had eternity? What would be your motivation?
As I said in the beginning I am limited by fear, not by a lack of motivation. If I had no fear I would do all those things I want to do, but which I'm afraid of doing because I might die doing it. It may not be a rational fear, but it exists.

[viscousmemories]

Of course, immortality would also give us an infinite amount of time for scientific advancement, and with enough study of the brain, we would likely develop the ability to erase specific memories, and therefore could relive the novelty of various events.
Oh, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

[LadyShea]

Of course, immortality would also give us an infinite amount of time for scientific advancement, and with enough study of the brain, we would likely develop the ability to erase specific memories, and therefore could relive the novelty of various events.
Oh, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

So novelty would be valued...as it is now.

Also, we would probably be able to prevent pain, Tom, if we could also cause immortality. Also, in your hypothetical, is everyone immortal or just you or could we all choose?

Imagine having an eternity to learn! You'd be able to play every musical instrument, speak every language, etc.

I thought of that too, but then what? Say after 10k years you know every language, including other species like dolphin or something. You've read every book, you've had every kind of sex humanly possible, you've explored every inch of every continent....hell imagine you had a space ship and have done all these things on a number of different planets. Now what? You not only have another 10k years, you have forever. I just think maybe its as difficult to conceptualize eternal life as it is nonexistence. Really, no goal is unattainable given unlimited amounts of time, so whats the point of having goals or experiencing anything? What value does any experience have?

Interesting discussion by the way, I have been thinking about it all day.

[wade-w]

LadySHea's position on this seems to be the same as mine. There's really not much I can add to what she has said this afternoon, but I'd like to elaborate a little on the point about foods.

It's amusing that ice cream was used as an example. When I was 14, I worked at a Baskin Robbins. Store policy was that we could eat pretty much whatever we wanted. They had this policy for a reason; it didn't take long for any new employee to become tired of ice cream. To this day, over 30 years later, I can take it or leave it.

Before I got into IT, I worked as a cook in various restaurants for about 8 years. Believe me, after a couple of months, you get very tired of the menu.

[LadyShea]

Wade, I can imagine your love of ice cream is now an indifference. What you said a bit back
We are talking about eternity here. Once you've done everything there is to do along with all variations thereof to the point that you are bored to tears, and then do it all over again a trillion times, you will still have just as much time left as you did when you started.
is the same thing I am talking about. All day I kept thinking of different examples that seem really positive at first, like learning, then adding "forever" onto it. Literally made me feel uncomfortabe to even consider. I seriously don't see how anything can have any value when it is infinite.

You see a limited example of what I am talking about with the incredibly wealthy. Little Ella Travolta found traveling on a commercial airliner so novel she commented excitedly about "other people" being on the plane. She has flown around the world on her dad's private 747 her whole life. Lil Bow Wow, or whatever that 15 year old's name is, has his own mansion, 3 cars (though he can't drive) each with a 100k sound system installed, women, travel, whatever he wants. What can that kid look forward to? What value could he possibly place on anything when he can have as many or as much as he wants of whatever he can imagine?

[wade-w]

Yes, LadyShea, I think we are on the same page here.

[freemonkey]

When I think of something like reincarnation, I mean to say that it would be nice to have a some more opportunities to live life. For whatever reason.... maybe you get a raw deal in one life, maybe you just can't get enough of something to last your lifetime, maybe you have something to work out from the last one, maybe you've got a date to keep, or, for the uber-curious among us, there's just always something new to see

I don't think about this in terms of inifinity, because you're right, LadyShea & wade, that's just too damn long!

[seebs]

The curious thing is that, while I am unsure how one could enjoy eternity, I can't imagine being "done" after any finite period of time. How many millions does it take to get to infinity?

[wade-w]

The curious thing is that, while I am unsure how one could enjoy eternity, I can't imagine being "done" after any finite period of time. How many millions does it take to get to infinity?

Infinitely many.

[CARLA]

:D My signature say it all for me..!! :grave: I will turn 58 this September..!! Still have lots to do before sliding into home..!! No time to think about what will happen to us all. When it happens it will be the right time.

Thinking about how, when and where is a waste of the time I have. Nobody gets out of this alive..!! JUST BE GLAD YOUR ABOVE GROUND, AND ENJOY IT, AND THE PEOPLE YOU LOVE..!! :D

Life for me isn't a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body used up, worn out screaming, WHAT A RIDE !!!!

[seebs]

The curious thing is that, while I am unsure how one could enjoy eternity, I can't imagine being "done" after any finite period of time. How many millions does it take to get to infinity?

Infinitely many.

Exactly my point. I am not sure that I would ever get bored, even with an infinite period of life; after all, at any given point, I've only lived a finite time and done a finite number of things!

[JoeP]

It's amusing that ice cream was used as an example. When I was 14, I worked at a Baskin Robbins. Store policy was that we could eat pretty much whatever we wanted. They had this policy for a reason; it didn't take long for any new employee to become tired of ice cream. To this day, over 30 years later, I can take it or leave it.

Before I got into IT, I worked as a cook in various restaurants for about 8 years. Believe me, after a couple of months, you get very tired of the menu.
Strangely, IT companies don't have a corresponding policy. "Hey - take all the high-powered computers you want! Spend as much time on the internet as you like and download whatever you want!" Who here has got bored of the internet after a couple of months? (OK, you wouldn't still be here if you were, but how many such people do you know?)

It would quite a lot less than an infinite numbers of years to play all the arcade games and read all the posts on all the forums. But while you're doing that, other immortal folks would be writing new posts and coding new arcade games (not to mention adding per-user options to have post counts in traditional arabic instead of sexy retro roman numerals). The store of things to try isn't limited. The range of places to visit is somewhat limited on earth. But given immortality, we'll invent space travel, and a few subjective years of interstellar travel won't seem like long.

So I don't think immortality would get boring. Some people - like most mortals - might need effort from others to create entertainment, and there'd need to be some reward. But it would happen.

The real problem is infirmity. I can't happily contemplate the thought of 30 years old age, with one or more of arthritis (unable to type), partial blindness/deafness, physical disability, Alzheimer's.

Struldbruggs, anyone?

[Dingfod]

We are talking about eternity here. Once you've done everything there is to do along with all variations thereof to the point that you are bored to tears, and then do it all over again a trillion times, you will still have just as much time left as you did when you started.The thought of that terrifies me more than there being nothing after all my synapses quit passing electrical nerve impulses. I've got no problem with the fade-to-black concept of death, no pain, no suffering, no hunger, nothing. It is the part getting to that point that scares me, that final minute of the plane crash, that last few seconds of a head-on car wreck, those last few months of cancer. I've heard that many fatal injuries are quite painful as well, so are many diseases. I fear most of dying from not being able to breath and those last couple of minutes before passing out from lack of oxygen, those precious few minutes when you realize you might well die and begin to struggle trying to get air.

I've already decided that I want to control when I die and how, by carbon monoxide or narcotic overdose, hopefully when I've either got a fatal illness or in the descent into Alzheimer's at a very ripe age, say 130 or so. What better way to go than to just go to sleep and never wake up. I just hope that when the time comes for me to step off the mortal coil, I'll be cognizant enough to be the one to pull the switch, turn the valve or start the car (in the closed garage), I hate to put the responsibility on someone else to off me.

[godfry n. glad]

Hey, Warren,

I rather agree with your position. I'd rather avoid all the uncomfortable and painful moments. My old man did the three years of increasing senile dementia...not Alzheimer's, fell and broke his hip and never recovered...pneumonia finally claimed him at 86. My mother was taken by cerebral hemorrhage at 78. My brother got the worst of it with a stroke at 47 and then lingering in various stages in invalence for ten years before finally succombing to a stroke.

My future is most likely stroke or heart attack, but I'm trying to get my kidneys to outlast me...so I've got a trifecta going here. You wouldn't know it about me until you saw how many pharmaceuticals I chuck down every day.

I dread the invalid routine. I think, after watching two very close male relatives go through this, that I would prefer to check out earlier, rather than watch the world go by while I drool.

I happen to live in one of the few places in the world with a "death with dignity" component actually voted (twice) into law by the people of the state. It is a carefully guided and strictly overseen process which requires two doctors careful consideration and consent and at least fourteen (14) days waiting period.

I know this because my wife invoked this law. She lived eight of the fourteen days, so she never actually used the full force of the law.

I think that's a right everyone should have.

Note though, that mental incapacitation voids your right to off yourself. And, nobody else can do it for you.

godfry