Parenting as uniter?

[Caligulette]

Parenthood doesn't change evil.

The above was said in a thread elsewhere in response to the question of whether a notoriously nasty poster had changed his views since becoming a parent.

There seems to be this idea that parents have common ground with other parents just by dint of being parents. I disagree."You also have a son, you two have so much in common," has often been the preamble to an uncomfortable silence once the introducer leaves.

It seems, in most cases, that parenting changes what a person deals with on a day to day basis, but seldom *how* they deal with it. (For example, it is highly doubtful that a brute, when confronted with his or her crying child, will not be brutish. This is a sometimes fatal miscalculation- that having a child will soften someone's heart.)

This is just the beginning of a thought here, but I wonder what you all think on the subject?

[LadyShea]

I dunno, I have been profoundly changed by parenthood. Now, my motherhood came after many long years of infertility so was a bit "harder won" than some others, and that may make a difference.

But, I don't feel that two people being parents necessarily offers much more common ground than they would have without offspring....especially when one considers the multitude of child rearing philosophies and styles.

[viscousmemories]

I have changed and I might have a child, ergo having a child might've changed me. I don't believe it has, though.

[LadyShea]

I might have a child

:huh?: What did I miss?

[viscousmemories]

More importantly, what did I miss? That's the question.

[Watser?]

:stunned:

[Ensign Steve]

I'm childless by choice, and there's some (very few, but still some) who think I must be a horrible person and woman because of it. I wonder if receiving a punch to the face would change them. :chin:

[Dingfod]

More importantly, what did I miss? That's the question.Decades dedicated to people other than yourself; long periods of pain, suffering, annoyance, disappointment, etc. offset somewhat by fleeting moments of love, joy, and happiness.


Your mileage may vary.

[viscousmemories]

Oh sorry, I meant what did I miss that might've resulted in my having a child I don't know about.

...and now I'll stop derailing the thread with my feeble attempt at humor.

[Caligulette]

I'm childless by choice, and there's some (very few, but still some) who think I must be a horrible person and woman because of it. I wonder if receiving a punch to the face would change them. :chin:
Could change the shape of their nose, anyway.

On topic:
I think the assumption that the change will always be for the better is erroneous.

[LadyShea]

I think the assumption that the change will always be for the better is erroneous.

Absolutely agreed. Many people cannot handle the stress of parenting, or are disappointed/disillusioned with it or something, and become bitter and pessimistic.

[Ensign Steve]

Absolutely agreed. Many people cannot handle the stress of parenting, or are disappointed/disillusioned with it or something, and become bitter and pessimistic.
You mean like Warren? :P

...and now I'll stop derailing the thread with my feeble attempt at humor.
Me too.

[Dingfod]

:sad:

[livius drusus]

It seems, in most cases, that parenting changes what a person deals with on a day to day basis, but seldom *how* they deal with it. (For example, it is highly doubtful that a brute, when confronted with his or her crying child, will not be brutish. This is a sometimes fatal miscalculation- that having a child will soften someone's heart.)

This is just the beginning of a thought here, but I wonder what you all think on the subject?
I'm not a parent, but I can say that I've come to be a lot less of a bitch about children just from getting to know a couple of them. I think it is a form of heart softening. Mind you, I wasn't quite a brute to begin with, but definitely callous as hell.

I imagine it would be a whole other story if I had the pressure and strain of a child of my own to raise. I could afford to come to a slow appreciation of children via a handful of encounters over a period of years. Parenthood is obviously not analogous to my experience.

I guess my point is just that I think it is possible to learn a new kind of understanding and empathy from interaction with children, so maybe it can happen from parenting as well.

[Dingfod]

I was over 25 when my first daughter was born. Before that, I barely tolerated children. I never wanted any children of my own and I made that known. However, having my own children definitely softened my heart, at least toward them, I still didn't really care that much for most other people's children. I must confess that I had a lot of fun as a parent for roughly 14 years. After that, the fun subsided and the troubles began. Oh, there were still moments of joy, but slowly, over time, the bad started to outweigh the good and now I am where I am, soured on the whole experience, thinking the good didn't outweigh the bad. Oh well. *sigh*

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

i don't think my thinking has changed at all since having a kid. my living patterns have shifted to accomodate it, but luckily for zeke, i am still the same guy i ever was.

that said, being a parent is pretty awesome. i guess if it changed me in any way, it just made me happier for that fact. i don't feel any closer to other people that are parents. it is not a factor in how i judge or relate to people, unless they are abusive, of course.

it's just part of being an animal.

[livius drusus]

The pendulum will swing, Ding. There ain't many things sure in this world, but that's one of them. Meanwhile, you have a great kid with a great talent who is putting it to good use, and a great grandson you're giving the stability he needs. This is good. :huggle:

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

I was over 25 when my first daughter was born. Before that, I barely tolerated children. I never wanted any children of my own and I made that known.

i was 36 when my first child was born, so i waited a while, but i differ from you in my reasons for waiting. i love kids and kids have always loved me (back off, pedos). i like that they are free to say and do what they want. i like how they always see the world as something new. i like their innocence...blah blah blah...point is, i always thought kids were great!

i always wanted to have a kid or two, i just had to stop being one myself...took me a while...shit- i'm working on it right this very moment :)


michael :)

[BDS]

I think people change only grudgingly. So having a child probably won’t change most people. Also, every child is a distinct individual – from the time he or she is born. So (not to bash Zeke, like everyone else here does) I think that saying, “I like children” or “I don’t like children” is a form of prejudice. I like some kids, and not others.

Fortunately, my own son is perfect in every way, and was from the minute he was born. He resembles his late grandparents in that respect, instead of his parents.

I don’t think parenting necessarily unites. My own pet peeve is parents who whine all the time, hoping to get sympathy from other parents.

“My son is 2 and ½, now. The ‘’terrible twos’! He’s such a handful that I’m stressed out all the time…”

or… “My daughter just turned 13. She hates me! I have to drive her everywhere, but she’s embarrassed to be seen with me….”

Or… “If I could just get one good night’s sleep! I’m exhausted waking up to feed the baby all the time…..”

I always say, “I thought 2 and ½ was a great age!” Or, “Gosh I miss having a baby to feed.” Or “I remember when my kid was 13 – his friends and him were always inviting me to go places with them…” And it’s all true (although it bugs the whiners, and isn't very good for creating a united group of parents).

[Dingfod]

I'm not thanking you because I'm one of the whiners, but I do appreciate your point of view, BDS.

[Qingdai]

I don't think that parenting even makes parents united on issues you would think they should (out of self interest if nothing else) be interested in, for example the failure of passing a child health coverage bill in Oregon.

It may be that non-parents were against insuring the health of children, it may be that tobacco companies spent $14 million on advertising to defeat the bill, but it could also be the failure of parents to realize that their children's life is going to be influenced by their peers.

[BDS]

Thanks, Dingfod. By the way, I hope I don't come off as bragging because my kid was "perfect". It wasn't because of my fabulous parenting skills (and certainly not because of his mother's). It was just luck.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

Also, every child is a distinct individual – from the time he or she is born. So (not to bash Zeke, like everyone else here does) I think that saying, “I like children” or “I don’t like children” is a form of prejudice. I like some kids, and not others.


that's a good point. i guess i have had a lot of lucky or chance experiences with decent kids...or...i'm just tolerant to a fault. :D

(thanks for not bashing me :))

[Caligulette]

I was 34 when I had my son. Previous to that I had no intention of having kids, really. The one I got is overall pretty danged good, which is excellent.

Children have always interested me in that they just have so much potential, those wacky little humans, but I was always glad to give them back to their parents after a little while.

I know that I miss my "alone time", and that I do not read as much as I used to now, but I really like seeing the things he comes up with, and I hope he'll remember me as a somewhat good parent. (Our family does not have a good track record, really, which is another reason I did not intend to have kids. Why perpetuate that? Well, it turns out that you don't have to.)

It has sharpened my view of things in some ways, and the best thing is that some stuff which used to be So Important has fallen away. I like that. I look at people differently- just kind of think of how they used to be kids, and are they who they wanted to be. That sort of thing. Politics is not just theoretical stuff now, and I've taken more action than I had before.

As for feeling unity with other parents? Not so much. I have maybe three parent friends, and only one of those is someone I met because of being a parent (though I like her best). I do find that I still feel as much an outsider as I had before in general. So, really, people I let into my life I do because of shared interests overall, not just because our kids are the same age.

And- I have seen parenthood sharpen other people's ideals. What I once found annoying about them now seems downright scary. I am sure they view me as a Red Menace, so we're even.

[Sock Puppet]

I feel quite a bit more empathy toward other parents, and am more likely to be patient with both kids' behavior and that of their parents. I am less patient with some parents' idiocies, but on balance I'm much less likely to make snap judgments about how someone raises his/her kids.

[Caligulette]

Yes, there have been plenty of melt-downs in the bookstore, and where I might once have just said "O, Take It Outside", I will now often say "Yep, I've been there". Unless, of course, the parents just ignore the kid and stay and stay regardless of the feelings of the other people around them, then it's "O, Take It Outside" time again.

[Clutch Munny]

having my own children definitely softened my heart, at least toward them, I still didn't really care that much for most other people's children.

QFT

[Clutch Munny]

I feel quite a bit more empathy toward other parents, and am more likely to be patient with both kids' behavior and that of their parents. I am less patient with some parents' idiocies, but on balance I'm much less likely to make snap judgments about how someone raises his/her kids.

Another good quote.

Since I've been there, on the train or bus or plane with a kid who just won't stop crying -- sick or teething or whatever -- it does make me more tolerant of someone else's crying kid. I know how bad I felt at impinging on other people's peace of mind in those situations, so I'm likelier now to overtly smile or express sympathy with a parent burdened with a inconsolable kid.

But if anything I've become even less patience with parents who let their kids become nuisances or even dangers through sheer laziness or dumbfuckery. Worst of all are parents who whine at their children, adding the ineffectual nasal bitching to the annoyance caused by their kid.

"Aw, CO-deeeeeE! Come on, stop pouring your POP on the FLO-ooor!"

:shudder:

[Sock Puppet]

Oh, ye dawgs, yes. And then there's the parent who thinks his/her kid is fucking deaf. Had one of those on the plane the other night. The kid, about 2, was relatively well-behaved. But the mom's bellowing at him "DO YOU WANT SOMETHING TO EAT? ... I'LL CHANGE YOU WHEN WE LAND, HONEY ... OH, LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!!!" was infinitely more annoying than a kid shrieking inconsolably, which he wasn't even doing. Jeez, lady, I'm over 40, I've been to something like 50 rock concerts and I'm farther away from you than the kid is. I'm pretty sure he could hear you even if you pitched it down about 60 decibels or so.

[Caligulette]

I sat on a plane once with CaliguKid (age 2 at the time) for about 8 hours. CaliguKid would not stop whining. Worse, the woman behind us would not stop talking. I apologized tot he man next to us (trapped. in the window seat) for the whining. He said, "Hey, don't worry about it. He's a little kid, he doesn't have that kind of self control yet," loud enough for the woman in the seat behind us to hear. I think I love him.

Often it is the grownup (be-kidded or not) who is the problem.

[Histrionica]

I feel quite a bit more empathy toward other parents, and am more likely to be patient with both kids' behavior and that of their parents. I am less patient with some parents' idiocies, but on balance I'm much less likely to make snap judgments about how someone raises his/her kids.

Only because you're a person who's willing to be changed by life's experiences. Those who aren't -- don't.