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Abdul Alhazred
11-10-2007, 03:26 PM
Cute animals. We could do something about them being endangered. But not hippy dippy noble savage role models after all.

From The New Yorker (Long - about 15 pages printed)

This article gets seriously into the field work.

Swingers -- Bonobos are celebrated as peace-loving, matriarchal, and sexually liberated. Are they? (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/30/070730fa_fact_parker?printable=true)

...

Hohmann’s first stay at Lomako lasted thirteen months. Halfway through, Barbara Fruth, a German Ph.D. student, flew to join him; they eventually married. (Up until then, “I was not thinking of having a family,” Hohmann said. “I was just doing what I did. I said, ‘I don’t have the time, and who’s crazy enough to join me?’ ”) Hohmann and Fruth flew back and forth between Germany and Lomako, and the bonobos eventually became so habituated that they would sometimes fall asleep in front of their observers. The Max Planck Institute is not a university; it supports an academic life that many professors elsewhere would find enviable—one of long-term funding and no undergraduates. Hohmann was able to publish slowly. Though not immune to the charms of ape-watching, he was at pains to set himself precise research goals. How did bonobos build nests? How did they share food? As one of his colleagues described it, Hohmann wanted to avoid being dirtied by the stain of primatology—a discipline regarded by some in biology as being afflicted by personality cults and overextrapolation. The big bonobo picture might one day emerge, but it would happen only after the rigorous testing of hypotheses in the forest. When a publisher asked Hohmann for a bonobo book, he responded that it was too soon. “Gottfried’s one of those people who don’t want to risk being criticized, so they make absolutely certain that they’ve completely nailed everything down before they publish,” Richard Wrangham told me, with a mixture of respect and impatience.

...

For a purportedly peaceful animal, a bonobo can be surprisingly intemperate. Jeroen Stevens is a young Belgian biologist who has spent thousands of hours studying captive bonobos in European zoos. I met him last year at the Planckendael Zoo, near Antwerp. “I once saw five female bonobos attack a male in Apenheul, in Holland,” he said. “They were gnawing on his toes. I’d already seen bonobos with digits missing, but I’d thought they would have been bitten off like a dog would bite. But they really chew. There was flesh between their teeth. Now, that’s something to counter the idea of”—Stevens used a high, mocking voice—“ ‘Oh, I’m a bonobo, and I love everyone.’ ”

...

Just goes to show it's not just fundies who have funny ideas about evolution.

A good read for the weekend. :cool:

Brimshack
11-10-2007, 10:15 PM
Nonononono NO!

Dr. Susan Block assures us that Bonobos are happy hedonists. They fuck all the time and don't do anything bad, because fucking all the time is the secret to happiness.

What do you have against Fucking Abdul?

Abdul Alhazred
11-11-2007, 01:31 AM
What do you have against Fucking Abdul?

Hmmm.

Capital 'F' like Fucking is my official title?

Putting a comma after 'fucking' changes the meaning. :P

Brimshack
11-11-2007, 02:26 AM
Hm, so apparently I was talking to someone else abouit you? I wonder what that person has against you?

Ensign Steve
11-11-2007, 03:56 AM
I don't have anything against Fucking Abdul. His wife might have something to say about it, though.

Brimshack
11-11-2007, 04:55 AM
Well there you have it, Abdul. Ensign Steve has nothing against Fucking You (with or without the capital), though she is mindful of your wife. Now what do you have against fucking, ...Abdul?

But
11-11-2007, 03:28 PM
You see? Fucking all day makes you eat people's fingers and toes.

Abdul Alhazred
11-11-2007, 04:32 PM
:glare:

LadyShea
11-12-2007, 03:07 PM
Animals in captivity don't always act the same as those in the wild.

Clutch Munny
11-12-2007, 04:29 PM
Just goes to show it's not just fundies who have funny ideas about evolution.

How does it show that?

And why would anyone have doubted that in the first place?

The Lone Ranger
11-12-2007, 04:38 PM
The notion that Bonobos (Pan paniscus) are non-aggressive and settle all disputes with sex is a wild exaggeration. While bonobos do appear to be a lot less overtly aggressive than Common Chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes), and more inclined to use sex as a means of promoting social bonds, the extent to which this is true has been greatly exaggerated in popular accounts.

I don't know exactly why this is true. I suspect it's at least partially because chimpanzees are our closest relatives, and a lot of people find the aggressive, warlike (common chimpanzee bands can and do attack and kill members of other, competing bands; what's more, they organize themselves into "war parties" for that specific purpose and deliberately seek out rival bands with the goal of killing them), and even cannibalistic, on occasion nature of chimpanzees somewhat unappealing. So, people are anxious to believe that some chimpanzees are would much rather make love than war.

I've even read accounts from people who should really know better insisting that Bonobos are more closely related to us than are Common Chimps. That's nonsense; we're equally closely-related to each chimp species.

Even if it were true that we're more closely-related to Bonobos than we are to Common Chimps, would that really tell us anything about human nature? No. Since when have humans been inclined to settle disputes with sex rather than aggression?



Regardless, studies on captive animals should be regarded with a great deal of skepticism, as LadyShea quite correctly points out. "Animals in captivity don't always act the same as those in the wild" is the understatement of the century.

Cheers,

Michael

Abdul Alhazred
11-12-2007, 06:59 PM
I quoted The Lone Ranger:

The real deal about bonobos. - JREF Forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3147718#post3147718)

Thanks. :yup:

Adora
11-13-2007, 07:35 AM
captive bonobos in European zoos
There goes any credibility to this thread.

But
11-14-2007, 10:19 AM
captive bonobos in European zoos
There goes any credibility to this thread.

Yes, that could be misleading. They observed the wild orgies in European zoos, the gratuitous murdering and cannibalism took place in Australian ones.

Adora
11-14-2007, 10:58 AM
Doesn't change the fact that any idiot who knows a thing about animals will tell you captive behaviour isn't indicative of squat.

I don't doubt that wild bonobos are as complex and diverse as any other species at the end of their evolutionary chain, but trying to make predictions about their culture based on captive observations is like trying to make predictions about human culture based solely on the observation of people in a mental institution or prison.

Ymir's blood
11-14-2007, 12:26 PM
... or this place.

Abdul Alhazred
11-14-2007, 03:15 PM
... or this place.
http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/images/smiles/BigGrin3.gif

JoeP
11-14-2007, 08:43 PM
I don't doubt that wild bonobos are as complex and diverse as any other species at the end of their evolutionary chain,

Where else would an observable species be? Serious Q.

Uthgar the Brazen
11-14-2007, 09:22 PM
I dunno. I think using a mental institution as the sole milieu of one's observations could at least lead one to a lot of very close guesses.

JoeP
11-14-2007, 09:34 PM
trying to make predictions about their culture based on captive observations is like trying to make predictions about human culture based solely on the observation of people in a mental institution or prison.

... or this place.

What do you mean, "or"?

BDS
11-14-2007, 09:35 PM
Since when have humans been inclined to settle disputes with sex rather than aggression?



It's common, actually. Especially when the dispute is about whether or not to have children.

JoeP
11-14-2007, 10:50 PM
I don't doubt that wild bonobos are as complex and diverse as any other species at the end of their evolutionary chain,

Where else would an observable species be? Serious Q.

Adora, what did you mean by "species at the end of their evolutionary chain"? Seems to me that any species alive today is precisely at the current end of their evolutionary chain. A bonobo is no more at the end of any evolutionary chain than a fire ant or an Amoeba proteus.

Adora
11-16-2007, 11:11 AM
I was being pointlessly rhetorical again, okay! :P

Abdul Alhazred
11-16-2007, 03:50 PM
If the line is not extinct, they are not "at the end" of anything.

They are a transitional form. :yup:

Uthgar the Brazen
11-16-2007, 04:02 PM
:sisfight:

:couch:

Adora
11-17-2007, 06:57 AM
They are a transitional form. :yup:
Yeah, and Tom Welling isn't fat, he's just transitioning into a bigger persion.

JoeP
11-17-2007, 08:47 AM
:sisfight:

:couch:

Ooh, bonobo fight:

:popcorn: