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Farren
01-11-2005, 08:47 PM
I'm a sucker for them. What I mean is games that give the same kind of satisfaction as reading a great novel or watching a great movie. Some of them you can finish in a day. But then I finish some books in a day (meaning a 15-hour marathon session) and I still feel like I got my money's worth. I've just started playing Vampire: Bloodlines which is based on the Vampire: The Masquerade paper RPG and it looks like its gonna end up in my personal Hall of Fame.

I just thought I'd share my personal favourites for any other gamers out there and hopefully find out about one's I'm not aware of (the big retail chains here are pathetic and mostly by from the same supplier, who only ships absolute top-rankers sales-wise, which are often mind-numbingly dumb games):

Vampire: Bloodlines

Even though its dated (looks like the Unreal 2 engine) I new I was gonna enjoy this from the first cut scene. It has top-flight scripting, professional voice acting, an immersive and a well realised world. The politics of the various (extremely diverse) clans of vampiredom and the sassy dialogue immediately immerse you in the game without any of the cringe factor I've come to expect from even big-budget RPGs (which inexplicably, given the genre seem to often hire crappy writers). Vampires feels like the kind of game a movie should be made out of, instead of stupid-assed Indiana Jones ripoffs like Tomb Raider.

The world is also hugely interactive, which I really dig. Radios and TVs can be switched on and off, fridges opened, computers accessed to read your email or hack security systems. I haven't had this much fun since Deus Ex 1. Sometimes the interaction is unexpected. In the opening scene you can switch a TV on and watch the news. If you play a particular clan of vampire (the Malkavians, a slightly loony bunch that see into other planes and speak in riddles), the guy in the TV starts speaking directly to you and you can have a conversation with him.

Speaking of Deus Ex...

Deus Ex 1

NOT Deus Ex 2. Deus Ex 2 was the most disappointing sequel I've ever had the misfortune to play, on account of the fact that they dumbed it down for X-Box users and actually removed half of the features that made the original so cool.

DX1 (or just DX) was the ultimate conspiracy game. Your nanotechnologically enhanced character oooozed cool in his shades and leathers. The plot had more twists than a Gordian knot and the game was deliberately designed to allow the player a multitude of ways to solve every puzzle. A perfect game for lateral thinkers. Apparently you could get through the entire game only killing one person in the process, despite the plethora of weaponry.

The scripting was awsome. I remember a scene in a Hong Kong bar, having a long dialogue with a Chinese barman about differing Western and Oriental perceptions of the Triads in the post-plague world of the game. At the end of a fascinating discussion I realised it advanced the game not one jot. It was simply there to fill out the world and make it feel less like the paper-thin illusion all games really are, to give it hidden depth and substance.

Like Masquerades it was massively and intelligently interactive. It avoided all the usual RPG pitfalls of pure randomness determining your fate with cunning devices. Like your aim naturally "wobbled", making it hard to get headshots (but nonetheless possible with lightning reflexes), et al, then the wobble decreased as you grew in skill. I've never played another game where I had to worry about disturbing a flock of pigeons and making them take off en masse, alerting a guard, either.

Blade Runner

One of the few games to use voxel technology for its 3D and to good effect. This was a more conventional adventure game, but to add replayability they made the plot change direction at key points if you said or did certain things, with multiple different outcomes.

The locations were all the old Sierra format 3D-mapped 2D artwork, thus benefiting from the georgous detail that allows, while the characters were 3D. To make it more atmospheric, the engine had smoke and lighting effects (shafts of light through steam and so on) and used them to similar effect to the movie. The whole affair was positively drenched in the same kind of atmosphere as the movie.

Other highlights include the actual use of an image enhancement machine to carefully analyze movies by zooming and panning, a working Voight-Kampf test you had to use to test certain people and, in a slight departure from classic adventure games, a small amount of reaction-based shooting.

Final Fantasy 7

With its crude 3D manga style characters this is a little out of place but this game just charmed my pants off. I tried FF8 which had vastly superior graphics but it somehow didn't set the scene right at the start. FF7 just had this wonderful feel, starting you off in a band of rebels in a huge city, then slowly, via flashbacks and meetings with old friends and lover's, exposing your past. The scope was epic, extending from one end of the world to the other and the settings were varied and original, from grimy cities to sea-side towns to ice caverns.

It felt like the game just went on and on and on, bringing new twists all the time. If you got involved in all the side quests and minigames it apparently could go on nearly for ever. A friend told me he spent close to a month just breeding and racing Chocobo's, the ridiculous ostrich like creatures found in the game.

The minigames were a treat. Instead of sticking to a single format, Square just wrote a whole new minigame for each scene that merited it. From escorting a truck on a motorbike with a katana, fending off fiends chasing it, to racing Chocobos or playing arcade games in the Amusement Park, there were a dazzling array of minigames.

Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis

This one is from way, way back, before I lost most of my respect for LucasArts. It was the finest Indy adventure to date. It was a classic 2D arcade adventure without any technological wonders but the story and the dialogue just made it work a treat.

I remember one night at the commune I was staying, someone was playing it and we were gonna watch videos. There was a technophobic goth girl who used to hang around our place and she was watching over his shoulder. Eventually she asked if she could play. We showed her how to operate the beast and couldn't get her off the computer the rest of the night while we watched vids, then later smoked dope and went outside to sit around a bonfire, play guitar badly and so on. It was the first - and in the subsequent years I knew her the only - computer game she ever played.

I'm getting tired of typing now so I'll leave it there for now. Anyone else got some goodies to share?

Goliath
01-11-2005, 09:31 PM
Bloodlines is excellent (the combat is a bit clumsy, though...).

And for another excellent game to add to the list, I have to recommend The Longest Journey. It's really more of an adventure game than an RPG, but it's the first adventure game that I had fun playing since the early King's Quest games.

Farren
01-11-2005, 09:48 PM
Dude, I played the demo of The Longest Journey, which had charming characters with funny lines and lovely voice acting and I've been wanting to get my hands on it ever since. The only problem is I can't.

Dragar
01-11-2005, 09:57 PM
Dude, I played the demo of The Longest Journey, which had charming characters with funny lines and lovely voice acting and I've been wanting to get my hands on it ever since. The only problem is I can't.

I have a copy. It's really good, apart from the ending, which is hugely anticlimatic. I'd be happy to give it to you, in all honesty - but I think postage costs to South Africa might be more expensive than the game itself...

I loved Deus Ex myself. I borrowed it from a friend a few years ago, and recently actually bought a copy for a few quid (British pounds) second hand, since it's so good.

Never played Bloodlines, Bladerunner or Fate of Atlantis, but I want to play them all. Final Fantasy VII I've played, but never completed - and I can't find a copy for the PC! If I could, I definately would.

Hm.

I strongly recommend Broken Sword. The sequel isn't shabby, either.

Dragar
01-11-2005, 10:11 PM
Oh, and before I forget: Morrowind.

The official world is big enough already. You can lose yourself for days, just exploring, sight-seeing, talking to people. The plot is fascinating (and open ended), and the world is the richest and deepest I have ever played.

And then there are two expansions! And then there is fan made content!

It's huge, and one of my favourites.

Farren
01-12-2005, 11:33 AM
Morrowind was initially amazingly immersive for me because of the "go anywhere, do anything" format. I played it for about two months before its fatal flaws started bugging me too much. The combat is horrifically bad. I really want to be able to exercise some player skill while fighting. Although the lore and dialog of the world is reasonable, the actual quests are profoundly boring and formulaic. Fetch this, fetch that. Click click click your way through battles where essentially random numbers determine the outcome. No real riddles. In the end, Morrowind pissed me off slightly for getting some things astoundingly right but messing it up with poor game mechanics.

Interestingly my initial response was to try modding it. Then when I found the modding tools frustrating as all hell I spent a year programming an alternative editor for MW called the "Morrowind Enchanted Editor" before giving up on the game. A lot of people are using it, so I still have a tentative connection to the online MW community.

I just finished playing Broken Sword: Shadow of the Dragon (the latest one) and it was a beaut. Finished it in one marathon 14 hour session but it was worth the price I paid.

Dragar
01-12-2005, 11:50 AM
I agree combat lets Morrowind down. I use a couple of mods that greatly improve it (it lets you block on command, adds some combo moves to combat).

Have you played any of the earlier two Broken Sword games? I enjoyed them both a lot, and I may try to find the latest one based on what you said.

Hmm..

The Baldur's Gate series is very, very good.

Planescape: Torment. I think this has the best plot and characters of any RPG I've ever played. It's fantastic, though the graphics are dated. Very, very deep, and so much text! It's like reading an interactive book with pictures!

wade-w
01-12-2005, 12:05 PM
I noticed the same flaws in Morrowind, Farren, but they weren't the bigget problem for me. Once my character got to a certain point, he was pretty much invincible. That gets boring in a hurry. For example, as a test I saved the game and then went into one of the Imperial Legion Forts, and took on the entire garrison. After it was over, they were all dead, and I hadn't even come close to needing to take a potion or cast a healing spell. Same thing happened when I met with the god in the capital city. I was able to take him out easily, and at the end still had over 40% of my health, without ever doing anything to regenerate it during the combat. I thought, what the hell, surely it'll get harder when I get to the final confrontation. But it didn't.

Goliath
01-12-2005, 01:39 PM
Dude, I played the demo of The Longest Journey, which had charming characters with funny lines and lovely voice acting and I've been wanting to get my hands on it ever since. The only problem is I can't.

Did you try ordering online (http://www.longestjourney.com/)?

Goliath
01-12-2005, 01:41 PM
It's really good, apart from the ending, which is hugely anticlimatic.


:eek: What the....were we playing the same game?! I actually got sappy and a bit teary eyed at the ending.

Farren
01-12-2005, 02:08 PM
The Baldur's Gate series is very, very good.

Planescape: Torment. I think this has the best plot and characters of any RPG I've ever played. It's fantastic, though the graphics are dated. Very, very deep, and so much text! It's like reading an interactive book with pictures!

The world of Baldur's Gate put me off (I played it for about 10 mintes :) ) because it looked very stock fantasy and having glutted myself on fantasy at one point in my youth I'm now almost allergic to it (not all fantasy mind you, just the merry bards, damsels in distress and straight-up dragons, Tolkein ripoffs and the like). I understand the appeal for many people is that comfortable folklore memes make the suspension of disbelief easier (and consequently immersion in the world), but for me personally it just comes across as profoundly cliched and unimaginative.

Planetscape, on the other hand, sounds like a treat. I can't count the number of times I've heard or read phrases like "landmark in gaming history" when it's being dicussed.

Goliath
01-12-2005, 02:44 PM
Woohoo! Thanks for making me look up The Longest Journey's website, Farren, because I just found out that there's gonna be a sequel!!! (http://www.dreamfall.com/)

:wriggle: :yes!: :woohoo:

Farren
01-12-2005, 03:58 PM
Thanks for pointng it out to me too. Now all I need is a credit card. AND the sequel :)

Dragar
01-12-2005, 04:52 PM
It's really good, apart from the ending, which is hugely anticlimatic.


:eek: What the....were we playing the same game?! I actually got sappy and a bit teary eyed at the ending.

Well, maybe it wasn't that bad. But I was expecting...I don't know. Something! The plot just kind of fizzled out.

And awesome to hear about the sequel!


The world of Baldur's Gate put me off (I played it for about 10 mintes ) because it looked very stock fantasy and having glutted myself on fantasy at one point in my youth I'm now almost allergic to it (not all fantasy mind you, just the merry bards, damsels in distress and straight-up dragons, Tolkein ripoffs and the like). I understand the appeal for many people is that comfortable folklore memes make the suspension of disbelief easier (and consequently immersion in the world), but for me personally it just comes across as profoundly cliched and unimaginative.

That's fair enough. Have you tried the Discworld point and click games? They're very good, and you may enjoy watching that meme horribly subverted.

Besides, they have Eric Idle voice acting Rincewind. Great fun.

Planetscape, on the other hand, sounds like a treat. I can't count the number of times I've heard or read phrases like "landmark in gaming history" when it's being dicussed.

I think you'd like it. It's based in the same...universe, shall we say, as Baldur's Gate. But there are no merry bards, damsels in distress or straight up dragons.

I won't spoil it for you, but the game begins when you make up on a slab in a mortuary. And the first thing you see is a floating, talking, wise-cracking skull.

It's all good. :)

Farren
01-12-2005, 10:33 PM
I tried getting the earlier Discworld games working with a couple of DOS emulation programs but I couldn't. Someone recently told me theres a single program emulator around somewhere that works. I've been messing with using one proggy to emulate old sound cards, another for DOS and so on.

viscousmemories
01-13-2005, 12:24 AM
Huh. I own Deus Ex but I don't remember if I've played it. I guess I should. :)

I've played so many games... but I can't seem to remember many standout RPG's. I really liked and got immersed in a couple shooters, though. The original Halflife was very engrossing, and another game called Sin was cool. Can't really think of others.

SharonDee
01-13-2005, 03:03 AM
Um. 7th Guest? :blush:

Sorry, I had to mention it since I've been playing it for the first time in almost ten years. I never really got into gaming much before or since that game.

I'll just slink on away now... :tiptoe:

Farren
01-13-2005, 12:11 PM
Wow. I can't believe you've been programming for so long and have taken no interest in games. Every developer I work with here has a stash of favourites.

SharonDee
01-13-2005, 01:02 PM
It must be the kind of machines I program, the iSeries and its predecessors. There was an EBCDIC art Star Trek back in the early 80s, and that was it for those machines.

I tried Myst once but I couldn't get interested.

Corwin
01-13-2005, 04:24 PM
I downloaded the demo for Deus Ex 2 and played through it for a few minutes. At that point I decided this game wasn't worth it. Horrible horrible horrible letdown.... since I agree Deus Ex was fantastic. Very disappointed. Half Life was also very immersive, and I'm looking forward to HL2. (Which I'm probably going to treat myself to now that I've found work.)

I found System Shock 2 to be incredibly good and immersive as well. (Not terribly surprising.... most of the Deus Ex team were former Looking Glass employees.) SS2 felt like.... like the soundtrack had a constant infrasound track going in the background. You spent most of the game in a more or less constant state of low-grade panic. (Which was good, since it was basically a horror game set in a sci-fi scenario.)

Farren
01-13-2005, 04:56 PM
It must be the kind of machines I program, the iSeries and its predecessors. There was an EBCDIC art Star Trek back in the early 80s, and that was it for those machines.

I tried Myst once but I couldn't get interested.

If you enjoyed Myst you'd be part of a small minority of gamers. A lot of people played it, few had the patience to finish it. Games like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, The Longest Journey, Blade Runner and Grim Fandango are what you're looking for if you want that quality of being in an actual story instead of a giant puzzle box.

Speaking of Grim Fandango, anyone here played it? That game temporarily revived my faith in Lucasarts. Its fantastic, highly original. Its set in an afterlife based on Aztec myth in terms of the general logic of what happens when you're dead, crossed with Art Deco/Jazz Era styling and general mechanics of the world (the type of cars, the way lifts work and so on).

The characters look bizarre but their lines and behaviour are straight out of the golden age of hollywood. This one has scheming beauracrats, mobsters, vamps and revolutionaries. Guns make people sprout flowers and green stuff all over - death for the dead. Some of the scenes made me think of classics like Casablanca and mobster movies I can't remember the names of.

justaman
01-14-2005, 04:00 AM
Man I cannot believe there are anti-morrowind comments here! Yeah I mean the fighting was a bit ho-hum but jesus!! I think something's got to be said about a game you said you played for two months straight, Farren :P I reckon I've pumped about 300 hours into it and while I'm thoroughly sick of it, you have to acknowledge a game that's able to hold your attention for that long, even if it became detrimentally excessive. I got out Fable and while it's good, it just doesn't have the scope of mw. I'm not sure anything ever will.

Goliath
01-14-2005, 05:01 AM
The problem with Morrowind was that it was all scope but no real depth. The main storyline (the bit of it that I did explore inbetween being able to kill anything and everything on the planet) was pretty boring, travel to most places was excessively boring, and the towns....I've never seen towns in any computer game that felt as cold, boring, and lonely as the towns in Morrowind. I'm not sure I can completely quantify or explain why they felt like cold, lonely places, but they just did.

I did like the idea of the town made out of the shell remains of a gigantic crab creature, though.

seebs
01-14-2005, 05:31 AM
Morrowind: I had a lot of fun for a while. Ironically, my complaint about combat is that it's got too much player control. I don't want to be an archer; I want to tell an archer where to fire. It's not MY job to figure out how far above a target to aim; that's why my character has an archery skill. I have a moderately developed starting character, and I'm actually sort of enjoying it, but that kind of thing does take some of the meat out of the game.

Broken Sword 3: Can't make it run. Tried, failed, tried, failed. With or without no-CD cracks. It desperately needs a patch, because I've seen dozens of other people describe the same problems. In fact, it was a major discussion topic in their forums, so they turned off their forums. Very disappointing, because I liked the previous Broken Sword games.

Lunar I and II. Played these on Sega CD. The PSX ports are better in some ways, worse in others, but I'm looking forward to 'em sometime. Lunar II gets a special prize for an "epilogue" comparable in scope to the main game.

BG I and II. Very good; BG II is more immersive. For me, it's hampered a bit by the subtle errors in the implementation of the D&D rules.

Planescape: Torment is absolutely amazing.

Fallout I and II are very good, although the bugs are crippling.

Arcanum, another game by the same people (Troika; the Fallout team left Black Isle to be their own studio) is excellent.

Temple of Elemental Evil is absolutely enthralling, once you have all the necessary patches.

I've been avoiding Bloodlines on the grounds that Troika games are absolutely delightful about six months to a year after they come out, once they're patched enough to be playable.

Most of the LucasArts adventure games are awesome. Grim Fandango is particularly excellent.

seebs
01-14-2005, 05:36 AM
The problem with Morrowind was that it was all scope but no real depth. The main storyline (the bit of it that I did explore inbetween being able to kill anything and everything on the planet) was pretty boring, travel to most places was excessively boring, and the towns....I've never seen towns in any computer game that felt as cold, boring, and lonely as the towns in Morrowind. I'm not sure I can completely quantify or explain why they felt like cold, lonely places, but they just did.

I did like the idea of the town made out of the shell remains of a gigantic crab creature, though.

Very much in agreement here. The cities are dead and empty. It's very hard to take them seriously as cities, because they don't have enough people. It's the trade-off; to make it detailed (every building is something) they gave you a giant city with something like forty houses.

I am not particularly fond of their combination of levelling and skill development through use.