ACK! Dog!

[seebs]

So, my roommate got a dog. And overall, he's a pretty decent dog, but he's a puppy.

A fifty POUND puppy.

And the problem is, he's not trained, and the roommate's been sort of lackadaisical about this, and even if the roommate were as diligent as people get, he's still a puppy. So he gets into shit.

For instance, he just took my dinner. All of it. It was in my room, on my desk, about a foot back from the edge of the desk, and in the time it took me to go get a can of pop from the fridge, he ate nearly all of it.

We caught him running away from the room, and my roommate says that's WAY too late to be mad at him, because you have to catch him IN THE ACT -- five seconds later doesn't count. (I don't entirely believe this; when he's running away from my room with his tail between his legs, I am confident that he does, in fact, have conscious awareness of error.)

So.

Is there anything short of invisible fences or waiting through weeks and weeks of obedience training that I can do that will convince a dog NEVER EVER to enter my room, even when I'm not there? I am willing to put time into this, I'm willing to put effort into this, but I'd like to start now, rather than waiting for my roommate to, in a week or so, get around to finding a brochure and then spending another week building up the courage to call the obedience training person, and then another week or two building up the courage to ask us for the training money (roommate can't afford it, and I have no objections to paying for the training, since I'm a major benificiary).

So. How can I train him not to enter my room? Can a puppy (german shorthaired pointer, 9-10 months old I think) even comprehend the notion of "THIS PLACE IS NOT FOR YOU"?

The suggestion of placing a baby gate in my doorway is NOT a solution. I do not want to have to work around the dog; I want him to stay the fuck out of my space, and I don't want to have to continually be harassed by workarounds. Are there smells that cats (and people) wouldn't mind, that would dissuade him? Are there other tricks to consider? Infrared cameras and computers trained to emit horrifying noises upon detecting a dog?

[livius drusus]

I have no idea, but every german shorthair I've known has been a complete and total spaz. Very, very energetic dogs.

[Dingfod]

Don't taze me, bro.

[wildernesse]

I'm not sure it is realistic to require no workarounds while you live with a dog (or any other animal). The best thing you can do is create situations where the dog can't get into trouble--so don't leave your dinner unsupervised and in its reach. That's not the untrained dog's fault.

Dogs can be trained not to go in rooms that aren't theirs, though. The only dog I have ever lived with never, ever went in my room, even if I left my door open--because it was not his space. I don't know how he figured that out, but he did. He was also an adult and very well-trained--but it took a lot of effort and time on my roommate's behalf to take care of him in the way he deserved.

[LadyShea]

The only way to ensure a space is off limits always, for even an intelligent dog, is to physically block it. We have been in the habit of closing doors to bedrooms, bathrooms, and offices for years now. If you don't want the dog in there, you have to prevent it...no matter how much you spend on training. Doesn't the room have a door? Can you maybe make him an outdoor (or mostly outdoor unless someone is home?) dog and spend the money on nice digs for him outside?

[seebs]

The problem is that we have cats.

We have several cats, and if they are locked into a room, they will pee, and we cannot always FIND the cats, so we don't know whether they might be hiding in the room.

Basically, I don't want to have to block the motions of cats or people.

I found a thing that claimed to make dogs avoid a particular space, but reviews suggest that it's worthless.

I would love to have him recognize that this is my space, and he's not allowed in it, but he seems to be in a phase where he KNOWS that, but he figures he should try to get away with things. In this case, I came upstairs to find him running away, cowering, tail between his legs, before I said or did anything -- clearly, he KNOWS it's not allowed, but he does it anyway.

I'm okay with the possibility of OCCASIONAL slips, but I really want to be able to let my cat in and out of my room, or my me, without having to worry about the dog trying to sneak around us.

[Chris Porter]

Cat doors on the inside doors.

eta: rather: cat holes on the inside doors. No need for flaps. Will allow cats to escape room or dog, should they desire, and it will help in some way to keep the house clean by restricting access for the dog, who will have very little control over that tail, which is very hard and painful, and can knock stuff over (been around german shorthairs)

[seebs]

That was my idea, but it was vetoed because they're nice wooden doors. Original with the house, from 1913 or whatever it was.

I have found a few conflicting reviews of indoor transmitters and shock collars, but I don't like the notion much -- I also dislike that the most positive reviews I found were on PetCo's site, which seems to have an index hiccup such that none of the five reviews could POSSIBLY have been for the product in question; instead, they were for some plastic cage, not pictured.

[Chris Porter]

So get cheap doors and hang those. The time spent trying to train a dog will be probably quite agonizingly long, and if you folks aren't good trainers, there's no assurance the training will take.

Or, holes in the walls by the doors.

[seebs]

Well, the dog's owner, who is sort of the arbiter of dog training, wants to experiment with the collar+transmitter thing. The intent is to put some sort of flag-like object around near the transmitters, and teach the dog that Flags Are Bad, then just put flags places he's not supposed to go. (This works fairly well with him; he still mostly won't go near tin cans, which may be my short-term workaround for his tendency to come exploring my room when he doesn't think I'm around.)

[freemonkey]

There are just some things you'll never be able to prevent with animals. Food is usually an issue.

With our dog its a couple things. One is that she jumps on doors when anyone or anything comes into the yard. She's big, 70+ pounds, and has destroyed sliding screens doors, regular screens, she has completely scratched the glass on the back slider, and just last weekend she broke a pane of glass in our LR picture window. We have tried everything, but nothing works. Its awful. This last incident, if I had not been home, the cats could have been injured by the shards of glass that were hanging there because they would have tried to get through it. So, I don't know what to do about this one, we've tried everything we can think of.

Another issue is about food. Sort of. But I was able to solve this one. We have a very small house and needed a solution for the cats' litter box. In our small extra bathroom I built a swinging gate with a space the cats could get through. Its installed on the outside of the doorframe and swings out, while the room door is on the inside.

[godfry n. glad]

Re: Restricting indoor spaces for dogs, but not cats:

Baby gates. Usually tension rod gates that fit into the door frame. Unless the dog is a good jumper, it will keep it out, while the cats can, if they are motivated enough, find a way over them.

Here's one:

http://www.baby-equipment-rentals.com/images/baby-gate-pet-gate.jpg

We used them for indoor bunny control. They worked great.

[Clutch Munny]

5 seconds after the dog eats your dinner is absolutely not too late to beat the living shit out of your roommate for being the billionth person on this fucking continent to think that a dog is a part-time buddy or fashion accessory.

Big dogs need big spaces. Responsible dog ownership, especially when one does not own a farm or live next to a legally designated dog run, is extremely demanding. In my experience, no more than 1 in 10 dog owners lives up to these responsibilities.

Or, as I've said before, if you want a nearly certain way to acquire the belief that rules, consideration, and etiquette only apply to everyone else... buy a dog.

[/intemperate rant]

[D. Scarlatti]

No kidding. A "roommate" just brought home a huge fucking dog one day out of the blue, without having discussed it* with the people she/he lives with, and now you have to deal with the repercussions? I'd sooner keep the dog than the roommate.

* I'm assuming this based on the degree of surprise expressed.

[LadyShea]

I have always had big dogs. I currently have over 200 lbs of dogs laying at my feet. I consider myself a responsible dog owner. The fact is they're dogs...no amount of training can take the dog out of them. I have to physically block entrances to off limits places, and keep many things up out of reach, for a small human, who even at 2 years old is smarter and better able to reason and communicate than a dog. You can't expect a dog to act like something it isn't, unfortunately.

I do think it's rather odd that your roommate did not discuss bringing another being into the household...or was it discussed and agreed to?

[seebs]

We've had the dog a few months. There was some discussion in advance, although I was rather surprised on the specific day the dog showed up.

This is just the first time he's come into my room. In the old house, he was a Downstairs Dog, and discouraged from coming upstairs at all, and he could cope. Now he's allowed in a couple of rooms, but not in the others... and he's an adolescent. So he sneaks into the other rooms when we're not there. Roommate went to the bathroom, dog snuck upstairs and stole food. *sigh*

The baby gate thing really, really, doesn't work for me. We already have a couple, which we use sometimes, but they are a royal pain in the ass -- people trip over them, etc. -- and I really don't want one for my room. I can live with one between the first floor and the basement (cat food in the basement), but for my room, I'd rather have something else.

The problem with all discussions in advance of a dog is that I'm not a dog person, and never have been, and thus I have no real frame of reference for what's reasonable to expect. I have been told that they are very trainable, and I would think that "do not go in that room, ever" would be within the scope of things that they could be trained to. However, it's much harder to train a dog to NOT do something than to train it to do something.

I am not much inclined to get along with dogs to begin with -- they rely heavily on exactly the sorts of state cues that I can't read without a lot of practice and training. I tend to terrify him into submission-peeing when I'm not even actually annoyed with him. On the other hand, the roommate is pretty cool, and I think the dog is really very important to the roommate's well-being at this point.

So we'll try the little radio things with the shocking collar; assuming they work roughly as advertised, they'll probably do a good job of teaching dog to avoid areas which are marked as Not For Dogs, and if that works, then I'm happy. I don't mind him much in general; I just want to be able to get a break from him, and not have to plan my room around his quirks.

[LadyShea]

Dogs are trainable, but it takes time, consistency, and persistence. Positive reinforcement when they do something right works many times better than punishment when they do something wrong...which is why it is indeed easier to teach them to do something rather than not do something.

It is not out of the realm of possibility to train him to stay out of your room, but I don't think it will be easy or 100% effective.

[freemonkey]

The baby gate thing really, really, doesn't work for me. We already have a couple, which we use sometimes, but they are a royal pain in the ass -- people trip over them, etc. -- and I really don't want one for my room.

They make baby gates with hinges, but they're more expensive. I made mine because its a non-standard size door and I couldn't find one to fit.

[rigorist]

Considering the folks residing in Wiggly House, I don't think consistent discipline and training is really achievable. Best to go with the brute force solution: Dog does not get to go upstairs. Period.

[seebs]

Considering the folks residing in Wiggly House, I don't think consistent discipline and training is really achievable. Best to go with the brute force solution: Dog does not get to go upstairs. Period.

This would take some serious doing, as he lives with one of the upstairs roommates.

I think he is a little bit of a therapy dog, and am thus uninclined to demand that he not be allowed in Luka's room... But I think the idea of being allowed in that room, but not allowed to go upstairs at all, may be too much to ask; it's not consistent enough. Hmm.

[LadyShea]

This would take some serious doing, as he lives with one of the upstairs roommates.

I think he is a little bit of a therapy dog, and am thus uninclined to demand that he not be allowed in Luka's room... But I think the idea of being allowed in that room, but not allowed to go upstairs at all, may be too much to ask; it's not consistent enough. Hmm.

Perhaps he can only be upstairs with his owner, and the stairs blocked the rest of the time? Or the owner can take the dog to his room and close the dog in (this is what we do, our dogs live in the master suite mostly, though they can be in the living room when we're home with no company).

I am sure there are accommodations that can be made.

[seebs]

The tricky part is combining the dog's difficulty with complicated rooms, with the desire of the other people and cats not to constantly have to step over barriers. Hmm. If we could train him to recognize barrier items that weren't even at ALL physical barriers, maybe.

I think things will get much better once we get him into some obedience training. Part of the problem is simply that only the dog's owner is really a dog person, and you can't really look up how to train a dog on the internet -- there's many different ways, all of which apparently work sometimes, and none of which work if you aren't all consistent. So I have to try to figure out how to train in a manner consistent with the way the dog's owner trains, but the rules being used are not-obvious to me.

It probably doesn't help that the dog is excellent at reading body language, and my body language is frequently misleading.

[Seven of Nine]

seebs, I think the shock collar is your best bet.

[godfry n. glad]

seebs, I think the shock collar is your best bet.


Put it on the owner.

[Dingfod]

I tried the "no-bark" kind of shock collar on myself before putting it on a really barky dog my daughter dumped on us. It wasn't that bad. Maybe that's why it didn't work on the dog.

[inland wave]

The shock collar is no different than any other training tool you would use with the dog. To be effective the training will have to be consistent, is that going to be possible? Who is going to have the lead on the controller? To many people handling it can give the dog wrong signals and almost border on animal abuse. I am not saying it would happen, just something to think about.

[inland wave]

I tried the "no-bark" kind of shock collar on myself before putting it on a really barky dog my daughter dumped on us. It wasn't that bad. Maybe that's why it didn't work on the dog.

Yeah until he ran with a pack and got into a fight. I thought we were going to have to put the poor thing down. It was terrible.

[Corona688]

The shock collar is no different than any other training tool you would use with the dog. To be effective the training will have to be consistent, is that going to be possible? with an automatic shock collar, the negative reinforcement is extremely consistent. approach x, shock. or in the case of a bark collar, bark, get shock.

[Seven of Nine]

The shock collar is no different than any other training tool you would use with the dog. To be effective the training will have to be consistent, is that going to be possible? with an automatic shock collar, the negative reinforcement is extremely consistent. approach x, shock. or in the case of a bark collar, bark, get shock.

Agreed.

[Ensign Steve]

They also have ones which don't shock but rather emit a noise that annoys the dog. I've seen them be pretty effective.

[seebs]

The annoying noise ones seem to work more with some dogs than others -- but might also annoy, say, cats.

The idea is that we'll pick a couple of places, and have transmitters there, so that if the dog approaches, ZAP!

... But there will be FLAGS, at distances very close to the edge of the field. (We can tell by holding the collar and approaching.)

Then the dog learns to avoid flags. All similar flags, just in case.

[Seven of Nine]

um, seebs? Why not leave a transmitter at the threshold of your room?

[seebs]

That is precisely the plan -- but since we have neither the shock collar nor the transmitter yet, it will be a while.

The collar can't be worn all the time, but we figure he can wear it enough to get the habit. Apparently it's important to trick them -- say, to walk them with the shock collar on, so they don't think about the collar when they get zapped in the house.

[Corona688]

Then the dog learns to avoid flags. All similar flags, just in case. "The Dog that Hated Poland"

[Pendaric]

We have baby gates which are like roller blinds - you can retract them when not in use and whilst they are still visible, they don't leave a trip hazard and they aren't quite as ugly as normal ones.

Kiddyguard-Roller-Blind-Stair-Safety-Gate-upto-130-cm (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kiddyguard-Roller-Blind-Stair-Safety-Gate-upto-130-cm_W0QQitemZ110196252377QQihZ001QQcategoryZ117029QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting)

http://i4.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/b8/c2/d4e2_1.JPG

[Seven of Nine]

That is precisely the plan -- but since we have neither the shock collar nor the transmitter yet, it will be a while.

The collar can't be worn all the time, but we figure he can wear it enough to get the habit. Apparently it's important to trick them -- say, to walk them with the shock collar on, so they don't think about the collar when they get zapped in the house.

I didn't know they can't be worn all the time. Do you know why that is, seebs?

My cousin's whippet tests his electric fence wire to see if the current is on...

[seebs]

They warn about it rubbing the skin raw if it's worn for more than 12 hours straight.

Should be fine, I think, this dog is very good at picking up aversive cues. We had tin cans with pennies in them in strategic places, and he now avoids cans anywhere he sees them.

[Seven of Nine]

They warn about it rubbing the skin raw if it's worn for more than 12 hours straight.

Oh, I see. Thank you.

Should be fine, I think, this dog is very good at picking up aversive cues. We had tin cans with pennies in them in strategic places, and he now avoids cans anywhere he sees them.

Oh, good, 'cause that was the only hitch I saw in your plan. I guess some dogs are more venturesome than others?

[godfry n. glad]

Should be fine, I think, this dog is very good at picking up aversive cues. We had tin cans with pennies in them in strategic places, and he now avoids cans anywhere he sees them.

That's the most promising thing I've seen the entire thread.

[seebs]

This dog occasionally retests things, but even if they only go horribly wrong sometimes, he seems to avoid them. He can't tell what makes some tin cans explode in horrible noise, and others not, so he tries not to risk it.

[Seven of Nine]

This dog occasionally retests things, but even if they only go horribly wrong sometimes, he seems to avoid them. He can't tell what makes some tin cans explode in horrible noise, and others not, so he tries not to risk it.


godfrey is correct: that behavior really is promising, seebs.
This must be particularly difficult for you, what with not being a dog person and all.

[seebs]

Yeah. Left to my own devices I'd have stuck with cats. The dog owner assures me that the two times the dog's suddenly lunged at a cat and bitten at its neck are not a sign of aggression, only play -- and may be correct; he wags fiercely at the cats, walks around sniffing them, and backs off when they scratch his face up.

I would still be a LOT more comfortable if Mr. Pooch lived his life absolutely always on a leash or in a cage except when someone is ACTIVELY playing with him or otherwise interacting with him -- I just don't think he's trustworthy enough to be loose.

He's also not, so far as I can tell, smart enough to notice that he can never get more than ten feet from a particular chair.

[livius drusus]

There's a fine line between play and aggression in a dog. Or in a cat, for that matter.

I think your roommate has a lot to learn, starting from how to pick an appropriate dog for the living situation. A german shorthair is not a lollygag around the house, having fun with cats, "therapy" dog. These are highly active hunting dogs who often do extremely poorly with other small animals. Your roommate would have to be a competent trainer to counter this tendency, and blowing off telling behaviors like lunging and biting is not a sign of competence.

How much exercise does this dog get?

[seebs]

The dog gets a whole lot of exercise whenever possible; running around, and so on. Unfortunately, he's done clever things like "charge full speed into owner's knee", which have deprived him of some exercise.

We did a lot of reading up on GSP's and small animals, and found that some can learn to coexist with small animals, and others can't. Maybe two weeks after we got him, one of the first times he saw a cat, he went still, stopped wagging, and then suddenly tried to bite one of the cats on the neck. He got yelled at a lot. I think one other time, when he was just waking up from a nap, he saw a cat and went for it... But mostly, I think he's correctly figured out that they are for playing or leaving alone, not for eating.

But it worries me, and I really don't like to just have him allowed loose until he's really much better trained than he is now.

We have definitely noticed that exercise is a big issue for him. Unfortunately, Minnesota winter is not a great time to exercise a dog a lot... I actually think the owner minds more than the dog does, though, he seems to just enjoy running around the yard (we have a nice large yard at the new place) and crunching through ice-covered snow. But when he gets exercise, he's a lot mellower.

I have high hopes that he will train well, but we have various surrounding issues; for instance, someone with social anxiety disorder might have a hard time calling a local dog obedience trainer to set up classes. *sigh*

When time allows, I try to play games with him; I mostly go for tug, because he can wear himself out some good trying to take a rope away from me. (You can lift him by the rope once he gets going.) It's pretty fun, and fairly low maintenance.

[livius drusus]

Running around in the back yard is not serious excercise, seebs, just like yelling a lot is not effective discipline for a dog. I wish you guys the best, but I think your roommate has made some extremely poor choices and I have no high hopes that this dog is in the best home for him.

[LadyShea]

livius's posts just got through to me that we are talking about a pointer! Hunting dogs need to be either hunting (or training/working as if for hunting with special "toys"), or walking miles a day as youngsters. They will be more than happy to lay around as seniors, but not a pup.

Your roommate may want to reconsider this dog, and maybe try to find a home where he can hunt or roam on some acreage. Adopting a senior dog would be better therapy, a lazy dog happy to sleep at the owners feet and get petted.

[wildernesse]

I would be very, very sure that you never leave the dog unattended with the cats loose. He should definitely be crated or locked in his room when no one is home or available to watch him carefully. A bored dog means a dead cat--and if he is not getting enough exercise or training, he will be bored and act out.

[Clutch Munny]

My landlords/employers in Greece had a young male Dalmatian that was basically crazy 24/7. The fat-ass man of the house would take him for a five-minute dumpwalk once a day. Meanwhile the dog was destroying their apartment, their furniture, and their social lives -- but of course it was all for the best.

One time when I was getting ready to jump a bus out into the mountains for a day of hiking, I went upstairs on a whim and asked if they would let me take their car. In return, I'd take Armao out hiking with me. They went for it.

Within 10 minutes of starting the first hard climb, he'd stopped freaking out, barking, and generally being an idiot for probably the first time in his life. In 30 minutes we were sharing a water-bottle and sitting quietly on a peak, watching the clouds. He was friendly, calm, curious but in control of himself -- just a beautiful companion.

The dog and I climbed mountains all day, and when he fell asleep in the car on the way home, I had to carry him upstairs to drop him off. He was quiet and well-behaved for about two days after that -- and his asshole owners were suspicious as a result! They were sure I'd let him get into something poisonous, or drugged him, or nearly worked him to death. The thought that this was actually how their dog would behave if they gave him exercise and paid attention to him never sank into their heads. The next time I asked to take the dog, they said no.

[Plant Woman]

I agree with the sentiments here. I wouldn't wish that dog on anyone but a hunter! (My B-I-L raises, hunts them and shows them. )

We have a dog that is a high energy dog and if he isn't getting enough exercise he is a handful. All dogs should learn to be crated. Not only for their own safety when left alone inside a house, but to keep the dog from tearing down the house. A dog like that can do some serious damage to a house or household items.

Seebs, rather you like it or not, you are going to have to make some adjustments when living with a dog. You can put up one of those gates at first until the dog realizes its a barrier. A hassle at first but after awhile you can just lean it up against the wall and he won't know the difference. You can also teach the dog to stay out of certain rooms.

Our dog knows that he lives in the family/kitchen area and that he can only go into the living room when it's time to go for a walk, or time to go to bed. We used the barrier for awhile and now he waits for us by the door. Of course he is sometimes over the line by a few inches, but we don't quibble with that. It really saves on keeping his mess confined to one area that needs constant cleaning as opposed to constant mess over the entire house.

He is almost always with one of us, except for when I have to go on location. Then he is crated. He is exercised outdoors daily where he chases a frisbee and jumps around a lot. He is also walked 3 miles a few times a week.

Anyway, you agreed to live with a dog, so you are also going to have to adjust to living with a dog. That will mean you won't be able to leave food out where he can get to it. The training process will take some time, and you never stop training them.

Good luck to you, I hope it works out.

[seebs]

He's actually crated. Well, it's a cage, but the main thing is, he spends a few hours a day at least sitting happily in a cage that he cannot leave. He seems quite happy with it.

In theory, he's walking miles a day. That's the intent; we haven't solved the Minnesota Winter problem. I am half inclined to get him a treadmill; I understand dogs can learn to like those.

Strictly speaking, I don't think I ever actually agreed to live with a dog; I agreed that, if an interesting and reasonably well-suited dog could be found, I'd be up for trying it. I am not at all convinced that a hunting dog is well-suited, but they really seem to have bonded, and I am optimistic that he'll do better. He's been a lot happier in the new house; he can get more action here, he can run around more, and so on.

Still, I'm not at all sure this was carefully planned. In fact, I'm moderately sure it wasn't.

[Seven of Nine]

Still, I'm not at all sure this was carefully planned. In fact, I'm moderately sure it wasn't.

Bummer, seebs. :(

[rigorist]

You guys have a massive back yard. Throw that ball around.

[D. Scarlatti]

He's been a lot happier in the new house; he can get more action here, he can run around more, and so on.

Who, the dog, or the roommate?

[wildernesse]

There are lots of blogs out there of people who are running outside and bike commuting still in Minnesota! It can be done, and would probably do some good for the humans getting out there with the dog, too.

[Qingdai]

Doggie day care may also be an option if it is available in your area. My friend's hyper dog would come home and fall asleep in his dog dish after a day at the local dog care, meal half eaten.

[Plant Woman]

Strictly speaking, I don't think I ever actually agreed to live with a dog; I agreed that, if an interesting and reasonably well-suited dog could be found, I'd be up for trying it. I am not at all convinced that a hunting dog is well-suited, but they really seem to have bonded, and I am optimistic that he'll do better. He's been a lot happier in the new house; he can get more action here, he can run around more, and so on.

Still, I'm not at all sure this was carefully planned. In fact, I'm moderately sure it wasn't.

I guess I misinterpreted your OP then. Still, you are going to have to make adjustments because the dog is there, since it sounds like the dog is there to stay. Unless the owner is with him 24/7, or while he's not there the dog is crated, you will have to deal with the dog. The doggy daycare idea sounds like a good alternative too. I think it is great that you care enough about your roommate's well-being to go through this.

[seebs]

The back yard is huge, but I'm not sure how well the dog will do in solidly sub-freezing weather, walking in snow without shoes. It's a thought, though. If I were less busy, I could deal with more of this, but I'm sorta overstimmed right now.

He's not a BAD dog, really. He freaks out when there's three or four people. Of note; if I tell him "go to luka", he goes to luka. If luka calls, he comes when called. If I tell him "go to luka" and luka calls at nearly the same time, he gets confused and runs into peoples' bedrooms instead of obeying. I think he's just a little overwhelmed. I note that, when there's fewer people around, he's more obedient... As long as SOMEONE is watching him.

His big flaws in obedience, for me anyway, are:
1. A definite tendency to interpret nearly all commands as "lie down and show your belly", and occasionally interpret one as "cringe and pee" for no apparent reason.
2. A tendency to disregard anything I say if his owner is present. Not necessarily commanding him, or even looking at him; just, you know, nearby enough to be within the dog's sense of audience.

Wearing him out some wouldn't be a bad idea. I occasionally run him around the house a bit; it's a large enough house that this is viable.

[Pendaric]

There's nothing wrong with the dog - there's something wrong with someone who gets a dog which requires exercise without making the commitment to see it through properly.

Dogs are not just therapy pets that can be switched off when required. If your room mate isn't prepared or able to put the work in to provide a decent environment then he should give up the dog for rehoming to someone who is able to do so.

I speak from experience. We got a golden retriever a year ago, and coming from a lap dog it was an adjustment as to the amount of exercise needed for a working/hunting dog. We take him on two 2 mile walks a day and a couple of half mile ones as well, plus a longer walk once a week. That's what a young, active dog needs.

There are dog breeds that aren't nearly as needy in terms of exercise, and if your friend really wants a dog he should look at changing for one of those. But any animal requires a commitment to providing it with a suitable environment and a responsible attitude to having it in the first place.

[LadyShea]

A definite tendency to interpret nearly all commands as "lie down and show your belly", and occasionally interpret one as "cringe and pee" for no apparent reason.

These are signs of an insecure dog. He doesn't know who's in charge or what is expected of him so he goes submissive when commanded to do anything . Somebody in the household needs to take on the Alpha role, pronto, get him basic obedience training, and get a handle on things. Dogs social lives are not the same as humans...they need to understand the hierarchy and their place in it to feel secure. They need to have a "job" in their pack. Really seebs the more I hear about the situation the worse it sounds. Is your roommate an experienced dog owner?

Fear biting and defensiveness are far more difficult to read and anticipate ,and therefore correct, than true aggression.

[seebs]

Roommate has previously owned dogs; I don't know how many.

You're quite likely right about the lack of a clear alpha. The dog has clearly figured out that we all outrank him. Unfortunately, it's very hard for him to figure out who's in charge among us; everyone defers to me, mostly, except people often defer to Jesse. I tend to defer to his owner on dog things (because, well, owner!), but his owner tends to defer to me.

I'm not sure that's fixable, unless we just declare me alpha, because in practice, my complete insensitivity to dominance roles means that I never really quite act submissive.

[Seven of Nine]

Didn't you say you were busy right now, seebs? Being alpha to a puppy can be a lot of work...

[LadyShea]

Alpha is an assured and confident leader and protector, there is no need to dominate unless challenged. Does anyone in your household have an assured, confident "leader" demeanor naturally?

[seebs]

Yeah. I really think the owner would be the best candidate, but historical issues I don't fully understand make the owner tend to be a little panicky near me. (I am reliably assured that this is because of my continued tendency to be an adult human male, not because of anything I'm doing.)

[seebs]

To answer your question, I'm probably the closest to having a calm, assured, leader mentality. Unfortunately, I'm not the dog's owner, and I don't really like dogs. :) Also, I'm busy.

[seebs]

A followup: The shock collar and transmitters are here. The shock's definitely stronger than it'd take to train me, but it's not so harsh that I'd feel horrible doing it to the dog -- especially given that he's not real bright.

So. We would like to visually deliniate the areas he is prohibited. We would like to do this, ideally, with something that a dog can see. It sounds as though dogs are most likely red/green colorblind, but can distinguish blue from everything else.

Blue masking tape sounds like a cheap and easily available Warning Sign that we could use, which the dog might be able to perceive and avoid, but which wouldn't impact us much. We will explore this possibility.

[Dingfod]

We have a windup toy that came in a Happy Meal that scares the bejeebers out of our dog. I doesn't really do much of anything but wave its arms and legs about, but it puts the fear in 'em. I wonder if I can use it as a training tool of some kind.

[Plant Woman]

:foocl:

[LadyShea]

Okay seebs, I am going to lay this out as specifically as possible then I will have to ignore this thread.

1. A hunting dog is not a good fit for this situation. Their needs include vigorous daily exercise, consistent training and routines, and an undisputed Alpha. They need these things just as much as they need food and water. A bored and insecure working dog can be destructive and/or dangerous.

2. You have unreasonable expectations of the dogs capacity to learn given the fact that the owner is unwilling or unable to provide for the special needs of this breed/this dog. Tech gadgets like shock collars are to be used in conjunction with training, not as a training measure by themselves

3. Pets should not be in homes where every human is not on board with accepting them as a member of the family. This means making necessary accommodations, participating in the care and training, etc. This is obviously not the case here.

I suggest, strongly, that this dog be re-homed with someone with experience with hunting breeds and that has the time to provide for it. If your roommate needs a dog, then one of the breeds bred for companionship would be a better fit, or an older dog. A Tibetan Spaniel is the calmest, least needy dog I have ever owned.

[Seven of Nine]

I agree with Lady Shea. :(

[Smilin]

A nice mutt is always an alternative! and they're free!

We just picked up the latest addition to our family. A real, friendly, caring mutt we've so affectionately come to know as Max!

He was abandoned, a stray that wandered up at the last home we lived in. I've taken to him with open arms.

[Plant Woman]

I also strongly agree with Lady Shea.

[erimir]

I agree with LadyShea.

I also recommend bichon frise as a breed, mainly just cuz that's the breed we have at home. They're small and playful and don't shed. They don't need much exercise (and they can certainly get it all indoors) and they're friendly, not aggressive. If your friend likes teaching dogs tricks, they're also quite capable of learning them (they used to be used in circuses).

But maybe they're a bad choice because since they don't shed, you need to put effort into their grooming - they need to get their hair cut every month or so, or you need to be diligent about brushing it out, otherwise their fur turns into an ugly matted mess (and it can be bad for their skin). So that requires spending time or money.

But yeah, any breed that needs less exercise and is more of a companionship breed is a better choice, unless you can convince your roommate to make a commitment to put forth the effort needed.

[rigorist]

Shall I be blunt? I usually am, so here goes:

I like the Wiggly House Crew--I really do. But, my friend, you are living with a couple of semi-feral humans. Pretty nice much of the time, but still semi-feral.

Somebody has to have the discipline to do the work with the dog. "Oh no! My knee hurts!" is no excuse when the dog needs to be exercised. "Sorry! Can't deal with leaving the house this week!" is no excuse when the dog needs to be exercised. "Oops! I stayed up for three straight days and now need to crash!" is no excuse when the dog needs to be exercised.

You seem to be the only person who has enough discipline and ability to work through the crap. This means you will end up with the responsibility of providing any sort of structure for the Captain. You are already doing this for your semi-feral housemates. Do you want it for the dog as well?

[seebs]

I get the feeling I'm portraying the dog as getting less exercise than he does. He usually gets a couple of decent walks, or a trip to the dog park, or both. Not every day, but pretty often. He also gets a fair amount of energetic play around the house.

The undisputed alpha thing, I think, is gonna be the hardest thing; we don't really have one, although I suppose Jesse could do it.

It's not that he's getting no training at all, or anything; it's that I'm frustrated with the fact that, a few months in, he's not totally obedient. I spent some time working through tricks with him while the owner was away at a funeral, and I think a lot of it may just be that he wants to be sure that the tricks are actually REQUIRED -- that he can't get out of them.

FWIW, the shock collar is here. It definitely stings, but it's not so strong that I feel totally bad about it. I don't know that he's going to get shocked more than a couple of times -- but the first one, it was a very definite surprise, complete with a yelp and running away.

I dunno. Maybe he should be in a more suitable home, but I just don't have a clear sense of how or whether to argue with a pet owner about the suitability of a pet. I'm not a dog person; I'm not a very good match for deciding what dogs work. He seems pretty happy, and he's getting a fair bit of regular attention.

I honestly don't know what things will be like here if/when we get the house a little more in order (say, the old house sold off, and suchlike). I think they might be good for him.

But this is all way outta my depth.

[rigorist]

I should note that I've met the dog in question and on the doggy badness scale, he's well-behaved. It's not like he needs major training. He just needs a lot of exercise and consistency.

[seebs]

Hmm.

I think the issue here may be partially a miscommunication because of my inherent pedantry. If someone says a dog needs to be exercised "every day", and the dog is exercised 30 days a month, I feel that the dog has not been exercised "every day", and since that was described as a "need", then ... You get the idea.

The failure to exercise the dog because of a knee injury occurred once. It struck me, at the time, as a reasonable reason to give the dog less running than he might otherwise get. Most days, he gets to chase around after a bicycle for a while, or now that it's winter, he gets to go to the dog park many days and gets at least occasional walks of a mile or so, in snow, with some amount of running.

The biggest problem I've noticed, apart from occasional attempts to (say) sneak into peoples' rooms, is that he tends to disobey me if there are other people around -- I think he tries to find the person most likely to feed him with the least effort, and hang out near them.

[livius drusus]

I get the feeling I'm portraying the dog as getting less exercise than he does. He usually gets a couple of decent walks, or a trip to the dog park, or both. Not every day, but pretty often. He also gets a fair amount of energetic play around the house.
This isn't remotely enough, seebs. Seriously. What Pendaric described about his retriever is what y'all need to be prepared to do. Energetic play isn't enough. A couple of "decent" walks every once in a while aren't enough. He needs a daily regimen of hardcore walking and/or running.

The undisputed alpha thing, I think, is gonna be the hardest thing; we don't really have one, although I suppose Jesse could do it.
It's not about scaring up someone to half-assedly pretend to be an alpha. The reality of the situation is that none of y'all have the time, inclination, dedication and capacity to take on this role, and you need all four to make it happen.

It's not that he's getting no training at all, or anything; it's that I'm frustrated with the fact that, a few months in, he's not totally obedient. I spent some time working through tricks with him while the owner was away at a funeral, and I think a lot of it may just be that he wants to be sure that the tricks are actually REQUIRED -- that he can't get out of them.
Dude. You can't psychoanalyze people and you are one. This is way out of your league.

FWIW, the shock collar is here. It definitely stings, but it's not so strong that I feel totally bad about it. I don't know that he's going to get shocked more than a couple of times -- but the first one, it was a very definite surprise, complete with a yelp and running away.
Ugh.

I dunno. Maybe he should be in a more suitable home, but I just don't have a clear sense of how or whether to argue with a pet owner about the suitability of a pet. I'm not a dog person; I'm not a very good match for deciding what dogs work. He seems pretty happy, and he's getting a fair bit of regular attention.
I bet the owners of that Dalmatian Clutch described thought he was a pretty happy too. Dogs are happy creatures overall. As long as they're fed and not abused, they'll smile all the live long day. That doesn't mean your lifestyle and personalities are the what that dog needs.

Call the German Shorthair Rescue Society. They'll have the information and knowledge of the breed that you don't have. Hell, any no-kill rescue society can tell you what sort of households are best suited to which type of dog.

I honestly don't know what things will be like here if/when we get the house a little more in order (say, the old house sold off, and suchlike). I think they might be good for him.
They won't fix the inherent discrepancies of this situation.The only thing that will improve this dog's life is y'all changing your lifestyles to accommodate his needs, and that doesn't mean putting blue tape around your door frame. That means a serious, extensive, regular program of exercise and a firm leader.

But this is all way outta my depth.
Right. That's exactly the point.

[seebs]

Followup:

I'm wrong. He's not an ACTUAL German Shorthaired Pointer.

He's a mutt that, if you see him not next to a GSP, looks exactly like one, and who has high energy but not the ludicrous energy of the breed.

[seebs]

This isn't remotely enough, seebs. Seriously. What Pendaric described about his retriever is what y'all need to be prepared to do. Energetic play isn't enough. A couple of "decent" walks every once in a while aren't enough. He needs a daily regimen of hardcore walking and/or running.

How much is hardcore? Enough to tire him out? Does that need to happen absolutely for literal sure every day, or is "six days a week or so" probably okay? Does he need two or more runs a day, or just one?

It's not about scaring up someone to half-assedly pretend to be an alpha. The reality of the situation is that none of y'all have the time, inclination, dedication and capacity to take on this role, and you need all four to make it happen.

Can someone point me to something much more detailed about the alpha thing? I have no comprehension of it, and I don't know how much dogs depend on the human social structure. Is it enough for one of us to be the alpha to him, or do we have to maintain apparent dominance between the humans, too?

Dude. You can't psychoanalyze people and you are one. This is way out of your league.

Dogs are, I am told, simpler.

Ugh.

I'm not real happy about the idea, but I'm not sure what the other alternatives are.

FWIW, Jesse mentioned this thread to the owner, who is pretty upset about people on the internet talking about what is or isn't okay in dog ownership... I dunno. I agree that there are issues; it seems, though, like there's a whole lot of criticism which is based on the fragmentary reports, and which is thus limited in applicability because I don't know what's going on well enough to report accurately.

I bet the owners of that Dalmatian Clutch described thought he was a pretty happy too. Dogs are happy creatures overall. As long as they're fed and not abused, they'll smile all the live long day. That doesn't mean your lifestyle and personalities are the what that dog needs.

Well, hang on. What do you mean by "needs"? If he can be happy and reasonably well-adjusted here (I am told dogs are never perfect), then doesn't that mean his "needs" are being met?

They won't fix the inherent discrepancies of this situation.The only thing that will improve this dog's life is y'all changing your lifestyles to accommodate his needs, and that doesn't mean putting blue tape around your door frame. That means a serious, extensive, regular program of exercise and a firm leader.

Can someone put this in numbers instead of adjectives?

Miles per day. Hours per day. Acceptable number of missed days per year. Stuff like that.

For all I know, the dog is getting serious exercise for his halfbreed self. I don't know! I know that, if he hasn't been out for a run yet, he's often a bit scatterbrained until someone plays with him for twenty minutes. Then he likes to nap.

Is that enough? Is it too much? Not enough?

Right. That's exactly the point.

Yeah. But unfortunately, it also means that it's pretty hard for me to do anything about it without much more concrete and quantifiable data, because I'm not about to say "I know you've been bonding with that dog for six months and he makes whimpering noises of despair if you leave without him, but some people on the internet said that their best guess of what I said I thought I saw is that we should give him away".

[LadyShea]

The fact that he might be mixed with something else does not change the fact that he is probably mostly a GSP and will have the same needs.

From Wikipedia:
The German Shorthaired Pointer needs plenty of vigorous activity. This need for exercise (preferably off lead) coupled with the breed's natural instinct to hunt, means that training is an absolute necessity. The GSP distinctly independent character and superior intelligence makes this breed best suited to experienced owners who are confident and capable handlers.

Lack of sufficient exercise and/or proper training can produce a German Shorthaired Pointer that appears hyperactive or that has destructive tendencies. Thus the breed is not a suitable pet for an inactive home or for inexperienced dog owners. The most common cause of death for German Shorthaired Pointers is being hit by a car. Although these dogs form very strong attachments with their owners, a dog that receives insufficient exercise may feel compelled to exercise himself. These dogs can escape from four foot and sometimes six foot enclosures with little difficulty. Regular hunting, running, carting, bikejoring, skijoring, mushing,dog scootering or other vigorous activity can alleviate this desire to escape.

So not a good walk, or playing tug of war....we're talking 4-5 two mile runs behind a bike a week and some other vigorous exercise on the other days. Pulling a cart to and from the store, or while working in the yard. Hiking over rough terrain. Perhaps even agility/obstacle training, or search and rescue training to channel their hunting instincts. Vigorous exercise both mental and physical!

From the GSP club:
It is important to remember this is primarily a hunting dog bred for a purpose and as such will have a high level of activity and/or energy that needs to be channeled.


From "Your Pure Bred Puppy (http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com)"

If you don't want to deal with...

* Vigorous exercise requirements
* Rowdiness and exuberant jumping, especially when young or not exercised enough
* "Separation anxiety" (destructiveness and barking) when left alone too much
* Aggression toward other animals -- chasing instincts
* A distractable mind of his own -- tends to ignore calls and commands when an interesting sight or scent catches his attention
* Shedding
* Slowness to housebreak

A German Shorthaired Pointer may not be right for you.

My major concerns would be:

1. Providing enough exercise and mental stimulation. German Shorthaired Pointers MUST have regular opportunities to vent their energy and do interesting things. Otherwise they will become rambunctious and bored -- which they usually express by barking and destructive chewing. Bored German Shorthairs are famous for chewing through drywall, ripping the stuffing out of sofas, and turning your yard into a moonscape of giant craters.

If you simply want a pet for your family, and don't have the time or inclination to take your dog running or hiking or biking or swimming, or to get involved in hunting, or tracking, or agility (obstacle course), or advanced obedience, or a similar canine activity, I do not recommend this breed. German Shorthaired Pointers were never intended to be simply household pets. Trying to suppress their "hardwired" desire to run and work, without providing alternate outlets for their high energy level, can be difficult.

Mind of their own. German Shorthaired Pointers are not Golden Retrievers. They are capable of learning a great deal, but they have an independent mind of their own and are easily distracted by exciting sights, sounds, and scents. Some German Shorthairs are willful and obstinate and some can be manipulative. You must show them, through absolute consistency, that you mean what you say.

It's not possible to give you exact miles and hours, these are living beings and the needs vary somewhat from individual to individual...but everything I am reading leads to the same conclusion. A GSP is not meant to be a mere household pet or companion animal. They were bred to work and if that work is not hunting, then it needs to be something else similar. They need to respect the members of the household and know their place in the pack.

This page (http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/training/common/respect.html) discusses disrespectful behaviors in GSP (including not listening and food stealing which you have described) and the pack hierarchy they need etc.

Now you understand now why dogs need the security of knowing who is in charge. And also why, if you don't establish YOURSELF as the leader, your dog will feel compelled to assume the role himself. This is when you will start seeing all those rude and disrespectful behaviors. Your dog, of course, isn't actually being rude or disrespectful. He is simply carrying out his role as pack leader. He figures that since YOU haven't assumed the role, HE has to do it."

[D. Scarlatti]

Ugh is right. Don't get non-human animals if you're going to electrically shock them into conforming with behavior acceptable to the human. Most people, I think, have dogs because they like the way dogs behave as dogs. The circumstances described in this thread, obviously, are an exception to that general rule. I feel sorry for that dog, in that nobody associated with it seems even remotely capable of dealing with it. And the shock collar is simply downright cruelty.

[seebs]

Well, hmm.

In that case, I'm cautiously optimistic. He's getting a fair number of heavy runs -- fewer now that we're snowed in (can't bike up and down the street for an hour in 6" of snow), but he's gotten worked to the point of being tired fairly well.

We've had problems with him getting bored, a few times, but since it's obvious that it's a problem with him getting bored, that has led to increases in his level of activity.

I guess... If I gave the impression that roommate just wants "a pet", I think that was an error. The owner's been talking about getting him a backpack so he can help on grocery runs, and advanced obedience training, and so on. He's a smart puppy, and learns quickly.

Don't mistake the complaints of a non-dog-person that a dog is insufficiently well behaved for a picture of a genuinely disobedient dog. He obeys pretty well. I've been working on "stay", just because it's so very useful, and he'll sit on the floor quietly waiting despite me obviously going in the other room, out of sight, and ostentateously making "removing doggie biscuits from box" noises. (Well, he'll do it about 80% of the time, but he's getting a lot better at it. In repeated trials, he goes from about 70% to about 95%.)

[seebs]

Ugh is right. Don't get non-human animals if you're going to electrically shock them into conforming with behavior acceptable to the human.

As I understand it, the reason for the shock collar is the difficulty of getting a dog to percieve a rule such as "don't go in this room" rather than a rule like "don't go into this room while I'm watching you". I've seen a lot of people describe them as usable components of a broader training scheme.

Most people, I think, have dogs because they like the way dogs behave as dogs. The circumstances described in this thread, obviously, are an exception to that general rule.

What the fuck?

The owner likes dog behavior. I don't much. Where have I said anything that suggests that the owner doesn't like dogs that behave like dogs? I'm not a dog person; that doesn't mean no one else in the house is. So far as I can tell, the owner is really into the dog's doggy nature.

I feel sorry for that dog, in that nobody associated with it seems even remotely capable of dealing with it. And the shock collar is simply downright cruelty.

If you can suggest a way to teach a dog not to enter a given room that's even remotely effective, and doesn't use such a thing, I'd love to hear it.

I think there must be a disconnect here. If people were saying "you know, it sounds like the fit there isn't perfect, here are things you could do to improve it", I could understand that; I don't think the fit is perfect. But people are saying much, much, stronger things, and I am really not sure why. Is my general dislike of dogs coloring my description of the roomie's attitude towards dogs? If so, I'm sorry, but I really don't see a justification for some of this stuff.

If you had said "no one seems to have both the interest and motivation to really fulfill the dog's needs", I could understand that; I mean, it's not clear to me that the dog is going to be as fulfilled as he might be elsewhere. But I don't see how anyone could get to "no one ... even remotely capable". Taking LadyShea's quotes about the breed, I'd guess he's getting around 75%-80% of the recommended level of activity, possibly more -- and he's certainly being run at the dog park until he's tired, which I would have assumed would be enough on that front.

If he were getting taken to the dog park for fifteen minutes or less, once a week, I'd understand the level of criticism I'm seeing of the dog's owner. But most days being exercised until he collapses into an apparently-contented doggy puddle sounds like it ought to be at least in the right ballpark...

[LadyShea]

If you think the exercise thing is within acceptable levels, great, now you as a household that includes a pack animal need to read and learn about packs. That part is equally important as the exercise. The dog is showing insecurity and disrespect already, but if you all are committed to learning and implementing you may be okay with this dog.

Dogs are not like cats at all, especially in this regard. Their social structure is vital to them. Read the page I linked to about disrespect, and buy a book or two. The Dog Whisperer is uncanny in his ability to simply be pack leader wherever he is, and few if any can replicate his natural ability, however his overall understanding and explanations of the hierarchy and psychology of packs is an excellent base for jumping into this topic.

[seebs]

If you think the exercise thing is within acceptable levels, great, now you as a household that includes a pack animal need to read and learn about packs. That part is equally important as the exercise. The dog is showing insecurity and disrespect already, but if you all are committed to learning and implementing you may be okay with this dog.

Is it even conceivable within a dog's model of the world for there to be non-pack that are neither predator nor prey? I don't really understand pack things, and the explanations I've seen have been utterly useless, because they appeal to a set of referents I don't seem to have.

Dogs are not like cats at all, especially in this regard. Their social structure is vital to them. Read the page I linked to about disrespect, and buy a book or two. The Dog Whisperer is uncanny in his ability to simply be pack leader wherever he is, and few if any can replicate his natural ability, however his overall understanding and explanations of the hierarchy and psychology of packs is an excellent base for jumping into this topic.

Okay. I'll have a look at that.

I spent a bit of time playing with Mr. Dog last night, and what I've established is that, if I can convince other-roomie (not the dog's owner) to stop trying to help me by enthusiastically telling the dog what to do, I can get pretty much flawless obedience from him on the commands he understands. With owner, whose patterns of tricks are predictable, he'll do the next trick before being told because he can guess what it is, only he's not that great at it. But he tries.

Other-roomie says I have to praise the dog exuberantly after each success, but I am pretty sure he's just fine with doing three or four things and THEN getting a treat. e.g., "sit. good. Down. good. Evolve. good. Down. GOOD BOY! <treat>"

("evolve" == stand on hind legs. It was one of his first tricks.)

The problem I mostly have is that I'm not at all clear on abstract boundaries, in terms of what he can or can't understand. We have put blue masking tape on the floor (the internet says that dogs can see blue, and can distinguish it from yellowish and reddish colors quite well) at the edges of places he's not allowed to go, and there's transmitters there that, when he's wearing the collar, shock him. I'd say that, I think three or maybe four shocks in, he's probably got the pattern; he's not dumb or anything. Honestly, I think a milder shock might do; the thing it can provide, that we can't, is an absolutely consistent pattern of "go here, get discouraged". We can't do that, so the only rule he can learn from us is "go here when someone is watching you, get discouraged".

I note that I have a lot less trouble getting along with the dog than I do getting along with the dog and other people at the same time; he's inclined to look around to see who's got the treats.

Hmm.

On the general topic of doggy confidence and assurance... How much of this is usually age-related? I have been told that an adolescent dog (say, nearly a year old) would be expected to test us occasionally. He seems to, although he seems to have dropped it with me. He does seem to startle sometimes, though.

[seebs]

The page on respect is fascinating. I'd say our dog rates a solid C+ on that, and is showing general improvement. He was excellent about dinner until my brother-in-law fed him a bit of people food during dinner, then he backslid. Mostly he's good.

So, here's my question:

Imagine, for the sake of argument, that the dog does something he shouldn't. What are the parameters of what you can do about this that will effectively communicate to the dog? When should you yell? When should you speak more harshly? When should you growl? In general, as I understand it, direct force should be virtually never needed.

But, say for example I'm sitting and doing something, and he runs up and pesters me -- nudging my hands or whatever. What's a response that will effectively discourage this? Do I say "no"? Do I growl? I am pretty sure that "oh, look who's all pushy! <pet pet pet>" is a wrong response. I would guess that backhanding him hard enough to send him skittering across the floor is wrong too. But... Should I just speak sharply? Push him back? Growl? I don't have a good sense of what is likely to be effective.

Getting him to do things is fairly easy; he loves to do things, especially if they sometimes yield rewards.

Hmm. I think he may respect me more than owner. If I get out a treat for him, he'll make about one attempt to go towards my hand and look interested before going into "attentive listener" mode. With owner, he'll try a couple of times.

So, back to the point about expecting a dog to be doggy... What is "doggy"? I expect, especially from a hunting breed, an animal that will respond quickly and reliably to commands he understands, and should be able to learn at least a couple dozen simple commands, such as posture changes or simple behaviors ("stay"). He should readily do tricks in exchange for praise and petting, although it's no surprise if he's more enthusiastic when treats are involved. He should be able to coexist peacefully with cats (as long as his hunting instinct isn't too powerful), and should be obedient enough to sit right next to a piece of food, without monitoring, for a minute or two on a single "Leave it."

Is this at all reasonable? Are my expectations too high? Too low?

[LadyShea]

I would suggest hiring a competent trainer, to teach you as well as all humans in the house, specific techniques so training can be consistent and well grounded in doggy thinking. Much of what comes naturally to me for example, doesn't to you, so I don't know the exact right things to tell you to do. I do not growl at my dogs, but I will tell them "no" with authority (not yelling, it's not the volume of your voice it's your intent and attitude they react to).

Also, dogs read body language and tone of voice and even slight changes in smell so well they can seem psychic, especially to someone who is unintuitive as you have stated in describing yourself. I am not sure what miscommunication may happen between you two due to this fundamental difference, but wanted to mention it.

[seebs]

Fair enough. There is a trainer in town, and... hmm.

The problem here is partially social; dog's owner hasn't been up at good times to talk to a trainer, and has crippling social anxiety. (Clinical disorder level, not lol internets level.) This makes it VERY hard to talk to strangers about the dog... but I think it's clearly needed. Bleh.

But you know, I might see if the trainer's willing to talk to me a bit too, or just make an appointment. I don't think I'm likely to ever actually much like dogs, but I am confident that at least some of my dislike has to do with a badly trained large black dog (not a lab, not sure what it was) that used to growl menacingly at me on my way to and from school when I was about 5... He was loose, and I didn't trust him at all.

I have noticed that the dog seems to be pretty good at reading things. This means that I tend to be much more understated with him than the other people; I am pretty sure that he can pick up on the subtle approval in subsequent commands in a sequence without needing an explicit WHO'S A GOOD BOY NOW to clarify.

I've been using "no" for "don't do that", and a bit of a growl for "do not even THINK of going there". He seems to buy into this. I think.

[LadyShea]

Here (http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-information/cesar-millan-dog-whisperer/article_nature_pack.aspx) is an article by Cesar Millan (the Dog Whisperer) although he sounds Woo Woo with the talk of energy, he is trying to put into human language a complex idea. Basically "energy" is your will and intent as presented to the dog through body language, tone of voice, and other subtle non-worded language. See if any of it makes sense to you.

[seebs]

Cool. I'm fine with mysticism; I am a fairly dogmatic instrumentalist. If talking about "energy" produces a mental model that yields effective communication, then that's fine by me.

FWIW, I also just left a local dog trainer a message. I am going to ask whether she can train people to interact with dogs in the abstract, and also use this as a chance to possibly help get owner set up with the dog coach, without owner having to initiate contact with a stranger.

Here's my take-home message from the thread so far:
1. You can't just not deal with the dog; he can't be a neighbor the way a cat can.
2. Given this, it is necessary to understand the dog.
3. It is probably better for the dog, not just for the humans, to make sure that the dog is understood.

I am confident that I can learn the needed skills -- I learn fine, I just had no motivation before. I figure I can probably even pass on skills to roommates, as long as I'm careful not to imply that I am challenging their competence to interact with the puppy.

There are days when I would find life so much easier if everyone were a little more autistic. :)

[seebs]

Very interesting article.

I think the calm/assertive thing explains a lot; the dog is very confused when other people are talking to him, but if it's just me, he's diligent and obedient, and seems to be happy... Because I'm naturally pretty calm, and I don't really have any conception of authority. You'd think the lack of authority would work against me, but what it means is that, if I conclude rationally that something is desirable, I just declare it as the correct thing to do -- which most people see as unbearable arrogance. It doesn't even occur to me to think in terms of authority, though, just competence; if someone else is better at something, I ask them and assume they're competent.

But since the dog is, pretty much across the board, less competent to decide things than I am, I just tell him what to do, with the assumption that of course he will do it. He is the dog.

... Which means I'd probably be pretty good with dogs, if I liked them, and wanted a high-maintenance pet. :p

[Dingfod]

Hardly a day goes by that I don't think one of two things, sometimes out loud.

1. Why again did I want to have dogs?

2. Why again did I want to have children?

[LadyShea]

Here's my take-home message from the thread so far:
1. You can't just not deal with the dog; he can't be a neighbor the way a cat can.
2. Given this, it is necessary to understand the dog.
3. It is probably better for the dog, not just for the humans, to make sure that the dog is understood.

You got it.

But since the dog is, pretty much across the board, less competent to decide things than I am, I just tell him what to do, with the assumption that of course he will do it. He is the dog.

Excellent. This is exactly the right mindset.

[seebs]

So, really, if I want the best outcome for the dog, the highest priority is probably getting the human into counseling for social anxiety issues. Whee!

[LadyShea]

So, really, if I want the best outcome for the dog, the highest priority is probably getting the human into counseling for social anxiety issues. Whee!

I'm confused as to why it wasn't already a priority. Isn't his anxiety detrimental to a fulfilling life for him?


There are days when I would find life so much easier if everyone were a little more autistic. :)

I apologize for my tone and threatening to ignore this thread earlier. I am so far from autistic I forget that not everyone will or can "know what I mean" without my saying it.

[seebs]

So, really, if I want the best outcome for the dog, the highest priority is probably getting the human into counseling for social anxiety issues. Whee!

I'm confused as to why it wasn't already a priority. Isn't his anxiety detrimental to a fulfilling life for him?

Well, it sort of is, but roomie has social anxiety severe enough to preclude an income, and I've been having various issues trying to get the money I'd need to subsidize such a thing. For instance, the last two checks I was sent for freelance writing were sent to a typo of my address, and disappeared into the ether; the reissued one should reach me soon.

The thing is, I'm used to just accepting that people have limitations or things they can't do, but in this case, this one's started to have noticable impact on other required activities.

There are days when I would find life so much easier if everyone were a little more autistic. :)

I apologize for my tone and threatening to ignore this thread earlier. I am so far from autistic I forget that not everyone will or can "know what I mean" without my saying it.

That happens sometimes. I think a lot of the issue is just that I don't have the intuitive sense of what's okay. A bored or unhappy dog will "cause trouble" or "destroy things". If he shreds flimsy dog toys, does that mean he's bored? I have always been under the impression that dog toys are for the most part disposable, and expected to be shredded; certainly, I've rarely seen a happy dog who didn't have at least a couple of shredded bits of tug ropes.

One of the pages you linked to had dire warnings about how it's bad if a dog refuses to give you something. But wait, I thought dogs liked playing tug! I have inferred that they probably make a distinction between "playing tug" and "you tell the dog to release something and it refuses". But for all I know, we're horribly wrong, and Mister Puppy ought not to be playing tug. (BTW, by "playing tug", I mean just about anything short of swinging him around on a rope that he's holding onto with his teeth. Every cue I can identify suggests that he really likes skidding across the floor while someone pulls on the rope he's chewing on; he wags happily, anyway, and he doesn't let go, and he perks up when we show him the rope. I think that's good, but I wouldn't know, would I...)

[LadyShea]

A bored or unhappy dog will "cause trouble" or "destroy things". If he shreds flimsy dog toys, does that mean he's bored? I have always been under the impression that dog toys are for the most part disposable, and expected to be shredded; certainly, I've rarely seen a happy dog who didn't have at least a couple of shredded bits of tug ropes.

Chewing appropriate toys is okay, even shredding them. It's a healthy way to work out little doggie frustrations. If you have an avid chewer I recommend cow hooves and Kong toys.

Eating the sofa is not okay. Our dog, Duck, destroyed the sofa when we first got him. Completely destroyed it; all the cushions were torn open and stuffing everywhere. He was adopted from a shelter so I have no idea where his mind was at the time, but he was definitely insecure at first.

My mom's lab mix puppy ate a hole in the wall....yes ate right through the drywall. Again, this was during the transition from a stray born in the woods to a home.

Neither dog remained destructive after they became comfortable in our homes and secure in their place in the pack.

[seebs]

Okay, I think that's within bounds. He's been slightly destructive sometimes when he's in his room for a while.

I'm not sure what level of "play on your own" is appropriate to expect from a dog; should he be content to be on his own for an hour or two? For about the duration of a working day? At night?

I don't have a clear sense of how much he can be separated out and still feel secure about his place.

But yeah, he's thus far been pretty good about shredding only toys, and even then, only some of them. He hasn't shredded his tug rope yet, and we can lift him by it. He seems to like this; I assume he'd let go if he didn't like it. I don't know whether that's reasonable. He also likes to play crack the whip; once again, I'm guessing he likes it... He certainly seems to seek it out a lot.

ETA: "that's within bounds" -> the pile of shredded cheapo dog toys doesn't seem bad, and I think he's doing okay.

[seebs]

Hey, another newbie question: A number of guides say to not let the dog walk in front of you, when walking a dog. Apart from holding your arm at full extension behind you, how do you accomplish this?

I had to go to the post office tonight to mail some bills out. (Well, I didn't have to, but it was on my list...) So I took the dog and walked over to the drop box and back. (I think it's maybe half a mile to a mile each way?)

He does definitely pull at the leash, a lot. I don't think owner minds much, although I've heard it asserted that he has to be caused to stop. I just kept it short and pulled him back into a neutral, head-up, posture any time he tried to change where we were going. When he walked with me without pulling me ahead or dragging me behind, I praised him. When we got to streets, I made him sit, then told him to come with me.

He didn't do as well as I'd have liked at obeying these orders, but by the time we got back, he seemed a lot calmer; I don't know whether that's purely exercise, or whether he likes having clearer guidance. He didn't seem unhappy or afraid, though, and he sat near me and looked content.

I have no idea whether I'm doing it right, but at least he got an extra walk in. He seems to like that a lot; I just wish I knew whether he's supposed to have a specific command to denote when it is okay to play.

We did encounter a couple of other dogs (they were under voice control, no leashes; their owner took them back and got them back in the truck while we passed, for which I was grateful). The Captain made one or two efforts to go romp with them in some way, but I told him to sit, and he did. (He made a brief whining noise about his desire to meet strangers, but I didn't feel that a leashed 50 pound dog should go meet a pair of 70-pound unleashed dogs, especially without his owner around.)

BTW, is there a formal name for the high-pitched noise? Whining? We've been calling it "heening", because it sort of sounds like that. "Heeeeeeen. heen heen heeeeeeen. Yip."

I should also add that I asked, and now I can say why we have this dog and not another: Of the dogs the Humane Society had, this was the sole dog that was fairly calm and quiet. (And I will grant, he is nearly always quiet; except when rah got a new scarf, or my mom came over with the walker, he's probably not barked inappropriately in a month or two.)

[LadyShea]

Hey, another newbie question: A number of guides say to not let the dog walk in front of you, when walking a dog. Apart from holding your arm at full extension behind you, how do you accomplish this?

During training keep the leash so short the dog needs to walk beside you. I hold most of the leash in my right hand and keep my left hand on the leash (dog on left side so all slack is in your right hand) close to the dog. This keeps him from getting ahead of you. Leash training should include walk and stop exercises, the dog should stop when you do and walk when you walk.

He does definitely pull at the leash, a lot. I don't think owner minds much, although I've heard it asserted that he has to be caused to stop. I just kept it short and pulled him back into a neutral, head-up, posture any time he tried to change where we were going. When he walked with me without pulling me ahead or dragging me behind, I praised him. When we got to streets, I made him sit, then told him to come with me.

Good job.

He didn't do as well as I'd have liked at obeying these orders, but by the time we got back, he seemed a lot calmer; I don't know whether that's purely exercise, or whether he likes having clearer guidance. He didn't seem unhappy or afraid, though, and he sat near me and looked content.

It takes time and consistency. He liked that you asserted yourself. Can you do this same walk daily?


BTW, is there a formal name for the high-pitched noise? Whining? We've been calling it "heening", because it sort of sounds like that. "Heeeeeeen. heen heen heeeeeeen. Yip."

It's just a vocalization...you can call it what you want. We call it whining. My Husky woo-woos and Duck bays and yodels like a hound.

[seebs]

On the "walk beside" thing: I've seen some sites claim you should make him walk behind you. HOW? Beside, I can manage.

I'm not sure about doing the walk daily, but I could make an effort for it. I think mister puppy is probably more cold tolerant than I am; I am stunned by the fact that he can apparently, without discomfort, walk on snow barefoot for twenty minutes. I guess he's built for it. He does seem to like the exercise.

I think this is a thing where I have received conflicting messages about this; people have said, even in this very thread, that I should expect him to behave like a dog; obviously, dogs run back and forth sniffing anything, given half a chance. And yet, he seems to also quite appreciate being prevented from doing that, simply because it means he has clear guidance; it's not his job to decide where we go, but rather, to walk next to me and go wherever I say.

This is sort of a conflict between different ways of interpreting "be a dog". He's designed to be obedient, and also to do things which I don't want; this means that I am, no matter which way I go on that, failing to adapt to the dog's nature. I think it's (mostly) better to make him adapt to me in terms of things like "who leads when we walk", but I'm still a bit unclear on this.

[Qingdai]

Behaving like a dog is behaving like a pack animal that likes clear leadership.
Could the behind you walk mean heeling? I always taught dogs to walk at my heels.

I like Cesar Milan's techniques, my husband got some good tips for managing the thugs on night crew.

[LadyShea]

He should be obedient and under your control when on a leash. He should be a mostly happy well behaved companion. As a dog, he will fail sometimes, training takes time and commitment and sometimes teaching the same thing a million times...then you have to remind him again for the million-and-oneth time. He will test his place in the pack to see if anyone is below him. He may even directly challenge you, or whomever he perceives as Alpha, at some point to ensure you are still in charge.

Some of the less extreme examples of being a dog...he may want attention at inopportune times (like when you're on the toilet), or go into a room he is not supposed to because there is an interesting smell in there, or not know the difference between one of his toys and your shoe, or screw up on obedience once in awhile and jump on you in excitement, or pull on the leash even after training because he wants to sniff whatever, or roll on a dead animal or in trash just for fun, or dig a hole in the yard when he is bored one day. He may poop in the house if someone forgets to let him out. He may get ill and vomit on your antique rug.

This is not conflicting, this is the complexity of living beings. Just as humans should be kind and compassionate, all of us screw up at times and say and do something thoughtless. Even if we are excellent at our jobs most of us make mistakes sometimes. My toddler asks the same question sometimes 10 times in a row "What's that? What's that? What's that?" and it's frustrating but I answer him calmly 10 times because that's how he learns. He pushes boundaries and tests my resolve because that's how he learns and asserts/experiments with his own autonomy. We are not mindless robots and neither are dogs. They have thoughts, doggy thoughts, but thoughts. They have feelings. They are individuals.

To adapt to a dog you need to understand that yes he is trainable, but that he is also very fallible and be forgiving of his dogginess.

[SharonDee]

LadyShea, thanks for taking the time to help Seebs with his dog issues. The stuff you're saying isn't new to me; I find the techniques you describe useful with my own dogs.

Seebs, I think you're the ideal candidate for Alpha of the pack. You can be firm and consistent, impervious to the dog's puppy-eyes when he tries to get away with stuff.

[LadyShea]

Sharon, most of this is not new to dog people. Seebs is the first non-dog person I have personally come across that is having to learn from scratch how to live with a dog. Most non-dog people simply never do that.

Also I just recently remembered that when I was 19 I refused to participate in the raising of the ankle biting menace, aka a Lhasa Apso, my roommate just had to have and brought home without my full agreement. She sucked as a dog owner, and my obstinance was bad for both the humans and the dog. We re-homed him with an experienced small dog person, but I kinda repressed the memory because I did the little shit a serious disservice and felt/feel guilty about it.

[seebs]

I have some familiarity with the conflict between the animal's nature and what's best for the animal; after all, I'm a cat person.

We'll see. I don't really see the appeal to the dog, but I can probably learn to do what he needs. Now if I could just train the roommates...

[LadyShea]

See, I find cats confounding. If I suddenly found myself living with a cat I would probably be on here going "what the fuck?"

[seebs]

Cats work for me because, for the most part, if you provide their needs on whatever schedule's convenient to you (change litterbox, put food and water in dishes), you're done; everything else is gravy. They're sometimes companionable, but they aren't needy, so they fit well with my lack of sustained focus.

I used to think cats were standoffish and avoided people, because wherever I was, the cats weren't there... But in a larger house, you find that wherever you care, the cats are about a room away. They seeem to find that comfortable.

So, I guess... Can someone explain what the appeal of the dog is? It seems awfully needy. Why are there non-working dogs? I can make sense of working dogs, since they are useful critters. But why do people get them as pets without a specific dog-appropriate chore in mind? They seem awfully high-maintenance...

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I couldn't tell ya. I'm all about the kitties. :purr:

[LadyShea]

So, I guess... Can someone explain what the appeal of the dog is? It seems awfully needy. Why are there non-working dogs? I can make sense of working dogs, since they are useful critters. But why do people get them as pets without a specific dog-appropriate chore in mind? They seem awfully high-maintenance...

It's not easily explainable I have found. Kinda either you get it or you don't. Much like why some people want to raise children and others don't. I'll try though.

A dog is my buddy, a dog wants to be near me, and for me to talk to him, and play with him and share my life. A dog intuits my feelings and responds. A dog develops a real relationship with me. Dogs mourn the loss of loved ones. Dogs protect their pack. Dogs give back in my experience.

I don't understand the point of feeding, doctoring and caring for a cat, since they aren't very companionable and don't offer much by way of affection or fun (to me at least) or even giving a shit if I live or die. I mean, why have a pet at all?

[seebs]

Cats can be quite affectionate -- but they have to actually like you. I'm fine with that, because it makes the affection more rewarding to me.

I like the low-maintenance aspect a lot; there are days when I'm just not up for taking care of things, and having a pet that can take care of itself with essentially no intervention on my part works for me.

[SharonDee]

What I like about dogs is that they're always happy to see you. No matter how long you've been gone, whether down to the corner store or all day at the office, when you come in the door they're thrilled to see you again. And when you talk to them, they hang on every word like you hold the secrets to life, the universe, and everything.

I like being the center of my girls' world; it feeds my ego nicely. :)

Cats act like you could live or die for all they care. (Not that I don't like 'em. I just prefer canines.)

[freemonkey]

Our cats are glad to see us. They come to greet us, when they are not asleep. One is very affectionate, loves to sit on your lap, give kisses and snuggle. The other is very vocal when she discovers she's alone and is trying to find someone. Generally, she is not as snuggly, but has her places where she will allow you to be her pedestal.

Not that cats can't be difficult, either, because they have personalities and idiosyncrasies also.

I get dogs, and I like them, but my preference (after my experience with our current dog) would be not to have them. They can be more needy than I like.

[seebs]

I haven't heard back from the trainer (I hope she does stuff in winter; her published schedule is mostly May-October), but I plan to put at least some real work into learning to deal with mister puppy. I'm getting better at getting his attention, although he still gets confused when there's a lot of people. He has a tendency to run around being excited, rather than listening, when Stuff Is Happening. On the other hand, he's under a year old, so I guess some of that is to be expected.

[Dragar]

I've never been a dog person either (in fact, any dog much larger than a large cat tends to keep me on edge in its presence). They are too excitable, and always at the back of my mind is the thought that if it really wanted to, it could probably rip my throat out. The unconditional affection/excitement is also disturbing. I just can't get my head around how/why they act the way they do.

I much prefer cats, who are generally much calmer, and whose affection is a reward for doing a Good Thing (like feeding, or opening doors, or making the toy mouse move). I guess cats are just way more predictable for my crude models of animal behaviour.

I wish you best of luck seebs. I hope you get the gist of how to handle the dog, both for your well being (and the other humans in your house), and the dog's too.

[seebs]

Okay, another dog newbie question.

On occasion, the dog has to be Put Away for an hour or so -- say, social dinner with people over who are too small, or too allergic, or whatever.

When he's been in his room about five minutes, he starts to whine. A lot. Occasionally he yips, but mostly it's a high-pitched noise that sounds like he swallowed a piccolo and is trying to breathe around it. It sounds HORRIBLY mournful.

I have been told that it is important NOT to come pay attention every time the dog does this, because if you do, he learns to do it when he's just bored and wanting attention.

So... Is that true? If that's true, does there exist some kind of way to train the dog NOT to do it? (Let's just say for the sake of argument that I'm unwilling to resort to zapping him every time he makes a sad noise, because I am.) Are there ways to tell whether something's physically distressing him (a full bladder, for instance) or he's just whining because he's lonely? How long should he be left in his room for at a time without us feeling bad?

My gut feel is that, assuming he's been walked recently and he's had a chance to pee, he ought to be good for 2-4 hours in his happy crate without feeling the need to whine piteously. However, I'm not sure either whether this is reasonable, or how one would get him there.

The dog coach lady called me back, but I was running an errand; I'll be calling her again tomorrow. Wish me luck!

[seebs]

Unless something changes, we'll be getting whole-family-group dog training, in house, for an hour each of the next three Saturdays.

Owner's out picking someone up, so I took the dog out for a bit; I was busy, so I just let him play on his tether (he has a good 50' or so to run in, there) for about thirty minutes while I talked to the dog trainer, made food, and so on.

When he came back in, I experimented with simply ordering him into his cage, rather than telling him there would be a cookie. It worked; he politely went in, turned around, and watched patiently as I closed the door.

If no one else can get him out at all, I might take him somewhere later. He seems to be doing okay, but I think he'd rather have more attention and exercise. My one big pending concern is that, when owner's around, he pretty much spends every waking minute with owner -- meaning he's not so great at being left in his cage for a couple of hours. But he'll get there, I think. I waited until the whimpering stopped for a few minutes before going to take him out. :)

[Dragar]

Sounds like it's going better seebs.

[seebs]

Trainer came by, showed us tricks. Dog LOVES to obey commands when he can figure them out, but likes to test people. I think this'll work.

[inland wave]

Trainer ---This is good news, I have no doubt it will work out.
BTW I am glad you decided not to use the shock collar. No matter whether you had a controller or an automatic collar, if not used under strict supervision by a couple of people it could've been a problem for all involved.

[seebs]

Well, we still use it very slightly -- for the few things that it's exceptionally important that the dog learn to stay away from. For everything else, we're working on more healthy positive reward systems.

[Seven of Nine]

Well, we still use it very slightly -- for the few things that it's exceptionally important that the dog learn to stay away from. For everything else, we're working on more healthy positive reward systems.

Please elucidate, seebs. :)

[Dingfod]

I'd use a cattle prod on the sumbitch, there's nothing like 130,000 volts to get your point across. That or a 12 gauge.

[seebs]

Well, we still use it very slightly -- for the few things that it's exceptionally important that the dog learn to stay away from. For everything else, we're working on more healthy positive reward systems.

Please elucidate, seebs. :)

Basically, the problem is that for active behaviors, you can mostly teach the dog; "come", "stay", things like that. He's doing great on those.

However, it's extremely difficult to teach him a rule like "no going in the kitchen". (Owner is pushing for "no going in these places unless you're on a leash", but I am not sure he can handle "never go in here, even when we're not watching, unless you are on a leash".)

So... For a couple of things ("no going into that hallway"), we use a thing that doesn't depend on our presence or awareness, even though we're not especially happy with it overall -- but it prevents the dog from mistakenly thinking that the rule is "don't go here while we're watching you".

For everything else, we're mostly working on basic obedience training. The zappy collar is there for the things we want him to simply avoid, rather than for teaching him to obey commands. (It wouldn't work for commands in any event.)

[Seven of Nine]

So, is he doing better, do you think, or is it too soon to ask?

[seebs]

He's doing pretty well. I think he got zapped at most three or four times; since then, so far as I know, he has never gone into forbidden areas except on a leash. (I'm not at all happy about the "on a leash, that's okay" thing, because I'm not sure he can understand the rule, but...)

Apart from that, we're making definite progress on the biggest issue, which is that when he's very excited, he ignores ALL commands because he's too busy hopping up on his hind legs and expecting you to praise him for it.

[seebs]

Just a followup, he's still improving noticably. He's had a couple of rough days with limited exercise due to plague and really nasty weather, but he's hanging in there.

He still cries like a very annoying baby when he gets left alone for even ten or twenty minutes. I think he might be better off if he got left alone MORE, so he wouldn't feel like every minute he spends not next to people is a punishment; I get the feeling that he can't tell "not playing with you right this minute" from "hate you and never loved you anyway". I'm not sure how much time and attention he ought to get, but I think the issue is just that he gets NEARLY all the time socials -- so the exceptions are weird for him.

He's doing insanely well in training. He can sit on a little stool (not easy for him) and hold a "stay" there for a couple of minutes while people go in the other room, ostentatiously put dog treats on the floor, and so on. He's even learning about pointing.

If it were totally up to me, I think I still wouldn't want a dog, but I think I can deal with coexisting. He's quite trainable, and at this point, my only real complaint is that he whines piteously whenever his owner goes anywhere without him. Well, more generally, he sometimes takes things personally for no apparent reason. But... Most of the time, he's happy, he's got bright eyes, he pants and hangs his tongue out and wags madly, and he plays complicated games which seem to really hold his interest. I think he's starting to like the training more than the treats.

[seebs]

Okay, one followup question has come to light:

Is there ANY way to communicate to a dog that it is time to stop harassing the cats and getting your ass kicked?

I don't think he's a serious threat to them; he's just plain not fast enough, and they can rip him up some good. We occasionally find bits of claw sheathes stuck in his face.

The problem is, he doesn't seem able to understand that this is not an encouragement to continue playing games like "rear up on hind legs and come down as hard as you can on the thing in front of you, because that's play!"

I would be a lot happier if he could be persuaded to leave the cats alone, or at the very least, stop trying to "play" with them in a way that, to cats, is pretty much a real invitation to a fight.

Any suggestions? I know cats and dogs can in theory get along, but I think Mister "I'm half-Pointer, and FULL OF ENERGY" is going to be a few years learning that cats do not want to play those games, and in the mean time, he keeps trying to Make Doggy Friends, complete with tussling dog-style, butt-sniffing, and so on.

[Garnet]

If repeatedly getting clawed in the snout doesn't teach him, I can't think of anything that will.

[seebs]

If repeatedly getting clawed in the snout doesn't teach him, I can't think of anything that will.

My guess is that he simply assumes it's somehow part of playing, because when he plays with other dogs, they play pretty rough.

[Garnet]

Well, I was joking, kind of. I've had a lot of experience with dogs, but zippo with cats. I'm honestly surprised though. Most dogs are able to discern that a claw sheath planted in one's face is not playing.

I'm not much help. The critters I dealth with either ignored cats completely...or ate them.

[Veritas]

This is why I will never have a flatmate.

This is why I will never have a dog.

[godfry n. glad]

We had a visitor who was told not to bring her rambunctious mid-sized dog if she intended on staying with us. She brought the dog, anyway.

Hobbes did not like it. He stayed out of the dog's way. When the dog did see him, the dog wanted to play, and Hobbes made it clear he didn't. After that, Hobbes found that the dog was so shy about meeting again that he could stalk, and herd, the rambunctious dog around the house, at his will. Funneh.

[freemonkey]

After that, Hobbes found that the dog was so shy about meeting again that he could stalk, and herd, the rambunctious dog around the house, at his will. Funneh.

Haha, yes. While our dog and the older cat are good friends, the dog has been known to give up a comfy spot to the cat.

[ChuckF]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/funny-pictures-cat-steals-dog-bed.jpg

[Bella]

I had a wiener dog for a few years, which "co-habituated" with three cats. This dog couldn't seem to get it through his thick skull either - not even when he got a nasty scratch over his eye which scarred rather noticeably. We resorted to watching him semi-closely when he was allowed free run of the house, and if he started going after a cat we'd take up a super-powered squirt bottle from the garden section of a thrift store and squirt the shit out of him. BAM - right in the face. He didn't like the burst of water and it would stop him right in his tracks. It got to the point where all I would need to say is "dammit Jekyll, where's the bottle?" and the dog would hit the ground with all four legs splayed out watching to see if we were still gonna squirt him even though he was being nice.

I realise your dog is much larger and this might not work, though.

[TomJoe]

...

[TomJoe]

Is there ANY way to communicate to a dog that it is time to stop harassing the cats and getting your ass kicked?
Spray bottle filled with 10% vinegar. If you see him acting up with the cats, aim for his snout and fire away. He'll get the hint pretty quickly.

[godfry n. glad]

Is there ANY way to communicate to a dog that it is time to stop harassing the cats and getting your ass kicked?
Spray bottle filled with 10% vinegar. If you see him acting up with the cats, aim for his snout and fire away. He'll get the hint pretty quickly.

If the nose doesn't hove into view when you're trying this, but the asshole is an easy target, shoot it, the effect will be the same.

[seebs]

I may experiment with this 10% vinegar thing. It sounds practical.

[seebs]

Followup news, for those curious:

Now that he's about a year old, we are quite sure the Pointer part of him is not all that dominant. He's high-energy for a dog, but compared to an actual Pointer? Not even CLOSE. They show up at the dog park and run from one end to the other, non-stop, for thirty minutes or longer and don't even look winded. Run this puppy for twenty or thirty minutes, and he's happy, but he's wiped out. During the really nasty cold snap a while back, he spent two whole days not leaving the house, at the end of which, he was SO energetic that he would sometimes not sit on command... So, not a full Pointer, that's for sure.