Prince Harry and the Swastika

[livius drusus]

It seems Prince Harry was photographed wearing Nazi gear during a costume party two weeks before 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz and it's pissed a lot of people off. From the Reuter's story (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7316222&pageNumber=0):

"This was a shameful act displaying insensitivity for the victims, not just for those soldiers of his own country who gave their lives to defeat Nazism but to the victims of the Holocaust ..," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean of the U.S.-based Simon Wiesenthal Center.

He added in a statement: "We strongly urge Prince Harry to accompany the British delegation on January 27th to the Auschwitz death camp to commemorate 60 years since liberation. There he will see the results of the hated symbol he so foolishly and brazenly chose to wear."

The Nazis murdered six million Jews and millions of others including Poles, homosexuals, Soviet prisoners and Gypsies. Millions more were imprisoned or forced to work as slaves.

Photographs of the younger son of the late Princess Diana and heir-to-the-throne Prince Charles in Nazi attire appeared in the Sun newspaper in Britain, as well as in Israeli papers and on Web sites around the world.

Harry, third in line to the throne, said in a statement he was sorry if he had caused any offence. "It was a poor choice of costume and I apologize," he said.

Honestly, it didn't strike me as such a horrible thing. Stupid given his position, yes, but a shameful display of insensitivity to victims of the Holocaust? That seems like something of an overstatement to me. I'm not sure, though, because there are lots of ramifications to consider.

What do y'all think? Does the fact that the "Windsor" family is actually the Saxe-Coburg Gotha family play a part in the reaction, even now, almost a century after they changed their name? Reuters tosses it out there at the end of the article as a little fyi. Was it just the hideous timing or are Nazi costumes just a really crappy idea for anyone in the British royal family/government to sport no matter when? How about the current neo-Nazi groups in Europe? Is a picture of a prince of England wearing a swastika armband more ominous because he looks like them?

Here's the pic (http://www.freethought-forum.com/images/harry.jpg) on the front page of the Sun, btw.

[Corwin]

Very stupid. Forget tasteless. Just plain stupid.

Considering his family history..... what the hell was he thinking?

[wildernesse]

I think it was a bit foolish for him to wear it. But, it was a costume party. I think it would be tasteless for anyone to show up as a Nazi to a costume party, IMO.

[livius drusus]

You think, wildy? I can see something a la "The Great Dictator" being okay at a costume party.

Not that that was the angle he was playing, mind you. I read in another article (http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Heil-Harry-prince-in-wars-over-Nazi-party-costume/2005/01/13/1105582653766.html) that the theme of the party was "Native and Colonial" (William in leopard skin. :drool: ) which is pretty poor taste as it is, but it makes Harry's costume look even more random and creepy. Calling it a Rommel's Afrika Corps outfit in order to squeeze it into the theme smells bullshitty to me.

[wildernesse]

Eh, I would be uncomfortable with someone showing up dressed as a Nazi at a costume party. For it to be ok for me, everyone would have to know each other really, really well. As in--we (everyone) know you're not a real Nazi or supportive of those ideas, and you just like to push people's buttons, but because we know you so well, you're not pushing ours although we might pretend to keep you happy. Even then, I probably wouldn't be all that ok--there are things that are impossible to take lightly, especially as outsiders.

[D. Scarlatti]

Afrika Corps? What was he thinking.

The SS get-up is better suited to a ginger complexion.

[viscousmemories]

Maybe they were out of KKK costumes.

[ceptimus]

Was it his great-great uncle who was photographed with Hitler?

Even if the prince is stupid (which wouldn't be his fault, of course) you would have thought that by now, he would have learnt to ask one of his trusted servants for advice. There must be plenty of equerries, footmen, butlers and so on, who would have told him, "That's a fucking stupid idea, Sir." when asked.

He has a long history of stupid gaffes: getting caught taking soft drugs and beating up a photographer being the most memorable prior to this one.

I blame the inbreeding. Vive la revolution! Where did I put that axe?

[livius drusus]

The SS get-up is better suited to a ginger complexion.

Basic black is the redhead's best friend. That's just a known fact.

He has a long history of stupid gaffes: getting caught taking soft drugs and beating up a photographer being the most memorable prior to this one.

Now, now, cep; he only headbutted that photographer. :giggle:

Good point about the handlers thing (although I suspect their genetic lines are more bamboo than elm too). I guess in the end he just didn't give a rat's ass about the potential ramifications. All that bong resin clogs the synapses, I suppose.

[Corwin]

Was it his great-great uncle who was photographed with Hitler?

That's how I figured the relationship. Edward VIII. Basically got manipulated into abdicating because the fact that he was a Nazi sympathizer scared the hell out of parliament.

[wildernesse]

The SS get-up is better suited to a ginger complexion.

Basic black is the redhead's best friend. That's just a known fact.



Nope. Magenta, hands down. :giggle:

[Dingfod]

Was it his great-great uncle who was photographed with Hitler?

That's how I figured the relationship. Edward VIII. Basically got manipulated into abdicating because the fact that he was a Nazi sympathizer scared the hell out of parliament.Not because he married a non-royal, an American?

[livius drusus]

Nope. Magenta, hands down. :giggle:

Only to the gym, Ginger. :wink:

[BigBlue2]

Was it his great-great uncle who was photographed with Hitler?

That's how I figured the relationship. Edward VIII. Basically got manipulated into abdicating because the fact that he was a Nazi sympathizer scared the hell out of parliament.Not because he married a non-royal, an American?
He would have probably gotten away with it if that had been all. But she was a divorcee and you can't have that, old chap. After all, it's 1936 and people have standards, eh what?

As for Harry, wearing a Nazi uniform was a stupid, ignorant, moronic and insensitive thing to do and he deserves the pasting that he's getting. As the article in livius's OP points out:
The Nazis murdered six million Jews and millions of others including Poles, homosexuals, Soviet prisoners and Gypsies. Millions more were imprisoned or forced to work as slaves.
The Nazis also started the bloodiest war in human history. It is not something that should be trivialised, and certainly not by a dickhead like Harry Windsor.

[CARLA]

:doh: Not the brightest move on his part.. :stupid:

His has apologized for his blunder, he is young, hopefully he has learned from this mistake.. :whup:

[Godless Dave]

As is usual with the British press vis a vis the British royal family, they are making much ado about almost nothing. If only they were half as attentive to Tony Blair's dishonesty and corruption.

[Kilted_Canuck]

He's an idiot, but the way Lizzie is holding up its doubtful Charlie will ever sit on the throne before needing a hemherroid cushion, and William will probably have heir's produced before Harry will ever get a shot at it. Not that the Monarch can do anything...but i think most of the Commonwealth would be a little worried knowing someone as irresponsible as that is the only one that can officially ratify bills into law.

[Corwin]

Was it his great-great uncle who was photographed with Hitler?

That's how I figured the relationship. Edward VIII. Basically got manipulated into abdicating because the fact that he was a Nazi sympathizer scared the hell out of parliament.Not because he married a non-royal, an American?

That was the excuse. The idea was that since both of her previous husbands were still alive.... the marriage would be adulterous by anglican standards... and since he was the head of the church of england, that'd just look really bad.

However, as has been posted, he'd probably have gotten away with it if his Nazi tendencies hadn't scared the holy livin shit out of the PM and members of his family. (They'd have worked something out.)

[LadyShea]

I feel sorry for him. That he has grown up without the thoughtful guidance needed to create good judgement is a sad thing. Poor kid just made an incredibly stuipd call and has to now face the consequences. As someone else said, hopefully he learned something.

The party theme itself is just as offensive IMO. 'Native and Colonials' ? Sounds like a theme from 1905 not 2005.

Of course, when the next sex or drug scandal breaks amongst the royals, this will be forgotten. Their whole tabloid news universe over there amazes me...the country is so tiny.

[livius drusus]

Agreed on all counts, Shea. The party theme is just gross. I wonder if there were lil' aristocrats in blackface running around with bones through their stylish nose piercings.

[livius drusus]

He's an idiot, but the way Lizzie is holding up its doubtful Charlie will ever sit on the throne before needing a hemherroid cushion, and William will probably have heir's produced before Harry will ever get a shot at it. Not that the Monarch can do anything...but i think most of the Commonwealth would be a little worried knowing someone as irresponsible as that is the only one that can officially ratify bills into law.

I've seen enough BlackAdder to know they've had far worse. ;) Seriously though, I think the Queen and the Pope should trade places. She's never going to die and he's on his last legs. It would work on so many levels.

[viscousmemories]

I feel sorry for him. That he has grown up without the thoughtful guidance needed to create good judgement is a sad thing. Poor kid just made an incredibly stuipd call and has to now face the consequences. As someone else said, hopefully he learned something.
He's 20 years old, I don't really think you can blame his parents or whoever has been raising him since Diana died for his callousness. It seems more likely to me he's just narcissistic and/or an ass.

[LadyShea]

I feel sorry for him. That he has grown up without the thoughtful guidance needed to create good judgement is a sad thing. Poor kid just made an incredibly stuipd call and has to now face the consequences. As someone else said, hopefully he learned something.
He's 20 years old, I don't really think you can blame his parents or whoever has been raising him since Diana died for his callousness. It seems more likely to me he's just narcissistic and/or an ass.

Certainly it's possible he is flat out a pompous ass, or maybe going through the dickheaded and moronic stage many guys go through in his age group. It is also possible that he simply doesn't give a shit that he is "royal" given the extremely slim likelyhood he will ever sit on the throne, or that he purposefully tries to shock people, or he wants to cause the royal family to look bad due to some grudge.

There are lots of possible motivations for pulling such a boneheaded move, I simply prefer to think he is misguided and lacks judgement as everything I have heard about him or seen from him in interviews points to a reasonably nice young man who is sorta "lost".

[Clutch Munny]

I am a basically decent person.

If someone had followed me around with a Handycam during my whole adolescent and adult life so far, there would be far more than enough episodes recorded to make that claim appear utterly absurd.

[viscousmemories]

Actually I shouldn't have said "it's more likely that...", because I really don't have anywhere near enough information to make any assumptions about his character. In fact it's entirely possible his costume was a deliberate attempt to illuminate the absurdity of a colonial/native party theme by dressing as the leader of another country who once sought to conquer the world.

[LadyShea]

Actually I shouldn't have said "it's more likely that...", because I really don't have anywhere near enough information to make any assumptions about his character. In fact it's entirely possible his costume was a deliberate attempt to illuminate the absurdity of a colonial/native party theme by dressing as the leader of another country who once sought to conquer the world.

Ooh I'd like that...good thinking! I kinda doubt he has the balls and brains to make that kind of statement, but that would be the best reason of all.

[ceptimus]

Latest is that his elder brother, and probable future King, went with him to the costume supply place, and feels that he should take a share of the blame for not recognising what a bad choice the Nazi costume was.

[livius drusus]

I read earlier today that they were both considering visiting Auschwitz without (official) press, but according to an anonymous palace source cited in the Herald Tribune that doesn't seem likely at this point. What a weird bunch.

[Beth]

The Prince chose a common fancy dress costume in Britain. People need to get over it.

The more sickening thing is the subject of the party.

[Beth]

I probably sounded hostile. My reply was not directed at anyone in here, only at the media and groups that are crying out in outrage. They should also target movies and comedy acts that use Nazi uniforms and symbols.

[livius drusus]

I got that you were speaking about the media frenzy and not anyone in this thread, Beth. I too feel that it's a bit much, but I don't think movies and comedy acts are really comparable because they aren't in the same position, both politically and symbolically, as a potential heir to the throne of England.

[Beth]

He is a young kid, the aristocrasy, as well as the commoners are wearing these costumes; it is a very common costume from what several of my British friends have told me. My point in mentioning the movies and comedy acts is that I do not see anything about this uniform as being too offensive, although my husband went on a rant that the possible future king had done this. Perhaps media depictions of Nazis may have desensitized William to the offense that he would stir. What I see is a guy who has seen this uniform and symbol used so much in fancy dress (Brit for our Merkin costume party) and in the media that he saw no big deal with it. I doubt he would have apologized if he was anti-Jew.

As far as him not being bright enough to get that this would piss off people, well, I hear that high intelligence is not quite expected from the royals. Also the Queen has the power to decide who PM will be, but how much more power does she really have? I mean, the President of the US and the Prime Minister have more power than the head of the Monarchy, right? I don't really see that his being the potential king as such a big thing. He is young and a product of culture. Maybe the Brits should re-examine whether they should be so flippant about costumes such as this, as a whole?--If I went to a party as a female Hitler, I seriously doubt that people around me would be upset. I would be the perfect monster.

I think the world is missing the deal, they went to an upper class party mocking the mass genocide of people (Natives). If I were William, I might think that costume was perfect for the occasion (that is, if he was bright enough to catch the statement. I think he might have been.). This is because I have noticed that many, not all by any means, young men his age are acting more impulsively, rather than acting in sensitivity to others.

Because I am sensitive, I would not display the Bonnie Blue flag, although I think it a lovely Confederate flag of the South. I would not wear a tee with the Rebel flag on it, although it has more meaning to me in reference to Scottish ancestors than it does fighting to keep slavery. I am aware of being sensitive. When I was younger, I was not so aware that such things were insensitive. It was not that it was because I wanted to oppress, but simply because of the fact that the flags I thought lovely and that symbolized my roots were fine; I saw the symbols all over-they had to be ok if they were everywhere. I am purt near sure the prince learned that the Nazi uniform was insensitive from the media flurry just as I did when a black man yelled at me for being a racist when I had never been a racist, to my knowledge.

[Shaguar]

Getting to this a bit late but here goes.
Stupid yes, an outrage maybe, many people here and in the USA think that the greatest fawlty Towers sketch ever was the "don't mention the germans" episode that had John Cleese goosestepping in the dining room.

Harry is not the sharpest pencil in the box and is being packed off to the military school at Sandhurst to stop heim playing up.
He has a truly useless position in that he is 3rd in line for the throne and unless the other two pop their clogs he is going to do nothing of value.

Just a quick note on the appointing of the British PM. Yes the queen signs the paper but has never and will never go against the elected appointee, it is a purely ceremonial role.

Godless Dave, you were right forget Harry's indiscretion concentrate on tony Blur's dishonesty.

[livius drusus]

Pop their clogs. :chuckle:

[TomJoe]

Perhaps Harry knew exactly what he was doing. How often does he get any attention (good or bad) from his father?

[livius drusus]

There's no way of knowing, but I think the fact that William helped him pick the outfit makes the begging for attention theory unlikely.

[TomJoe]

There's no way of knowing, but I think the fact that William helped him pick the outfit makes the begging for attention theory unlikely.

Except that they both have the same father, who seems to be more attentive to his mistress than to them. How big is the trust fund he just set up for Ms. Bowles?

Just pure speculation on my part... I'd rather think he was looking for attention, rather than know he lacks all common sense (just how close was Britian to succumbing to Nazi bombing, and he's running around wearing a Nazi uniform?)... benefit of the doubt and all that.

[livius drusus]

Except that they both have the same father, who seems to be more attentive to his mistress than to them.

I haven't gotten that impression at all, but yeah, I don't see how any of us could really know.

How big is the trust fund he just set up for Ms. Bowles?

I have no idea, but five'll get you ten that it's not a patch on the ones he's set up for his sons. Besides, that's just money, not attention.

Just pure speculation on my part... I'd rather think he was looking for attention, rather than know he lacks all common sense (just how close was Britian to succumbing to Nazi bombing, and he's running around wearing a Nazi uniform?)... benefit of the doubt and all that.

That's really interesting. I find the idea that he would do something so offensive on purpose to get his father's attention far more disturbing than the idea that he's a dumbass who watched one too many reruns of that Fawlty Towers episode Shaguar mentioned. I'm actually giving him the benefit of my doubt by opting for the dumbass theory. :shrug:

[Beth]

Getting to this a bit late but here goes.
Stupid yes, an outrage maybe, many people here and in the USA think that the greatest fawlty Towers sketch ever was the "don't mention the germans" episode that had John Cleese goosestepping in the dining room. Hehe.


Just a quick note on the appointing of the British PM. Yes the queen signs the paper but has never and will never go against the elected appointee, it is a purely ceremonial role. Thanks. The Queen has never gone against the vote, but does she have the power to? I was under the impression that she did. And I wonder, if the Monarch is so powerless, why do you guys allow it to remain? And are they really of any value to the Commonwealth beside showing up places looking all sparkly? (I'm sorry if that offends a Brit, I just do not understand why the Monachy remains when you have a prime minister.)

[TomJoe]

I have no idea, but five'll get you ten that it's not a patch on the ones he's set up for his sons. Besides, that's just money, not attention.


No doubt, and you're right... it's just money. However... it's money given to the woman who broke up their father and mothers marriage, which in turn led to their mothers death. I know it's a long time between the falling of each domino, but... well, I guess I'm done playing armchair psychologist for the day. :)

In either case, I agree with you... intentional or not, it was a boneheaded thing to do.

[Shaguar]

I forgot to put in my post that the most successful show in the London theatre at the moment is "The Producers" by Mel Brooks which features the immortal song "Springtime for Hitler" people are queueing up in droves to be "Offended".

The qusetion as to why do we keep the Queen is a good one and is being asked bt many Brits as we speak. We have the PM and a monarch because we are a Constitutional Monarchy, it has ever been thus (well sice we chopped Charle's I head off. The status quo is always seen as a very powerful argument in this country. There is also the attraction that she is seen as the apolitical head of the country. If you did not vote for Mr Blur then you can still regard the Queen as your leader, OK she may be half german with a very tenous claim to the throne but what the hell.

My personal position is that I believe that we should retain the monarchy but that the civil list that grants monies to the extended family should be significantly trimmed. Prince Andrew for instance would go to the opening of an envelope if there was a golf course nearby.

I cannot really justify my argument for retaing the monarchy other than I just feel that it is part of my history and what makes me essentially British. We are an insignificant island in Northern Europe and will try to enhance our world stature anyway we can, many people believe rightly or wrongly that a Monarch does that.

The Commonwealth is a different matter and I have to say I regard it as a complete irrelevance in this day and age, to get membership you have to have been overrun, subjugated, enslaved and exploited by what was the British Empire (now consists of Gibraltar and Pitcairn Island).

[livius drusus]

:chuckle: Now that's just plain funny. You rule, Shaguar.

[Dragar]

The queen is a great tourist attraction. She brings in a lot of money for the country. :yup:

What, there should be more to it than that?

[Dragar]

Thanks. The Queen has never gone against the vote, but does she have the power to?

In the same way that any ruler has the power to do whatever they want. If she did so, of course, there would be an instantaneous revolution.

[viscousmemories]

The queen is a great tourist attraction. She brings in a lot of money for the country. :yup:
How do the rides compare to Euro-Disney?

[livius drusus]

Ask the butler.

[godfry n. glad]

The Commonwealth is a different matter and I have to say I regard it as a complete irrelevance in this day and age, to get membership you have to have been overrun, subjugated, enslaved and exploited by what was the British Empire (now consists of Gibraltar and Pitcairn Island).

Oh, now...don't forget the Falklands. After all, you guys did intimidate the Argentinians for it. Recently, too.

Y'know, I've never understand all that "royalty" stuff. I've yet to see much of an argument for inherited power or wealth. One that convinced me, anyway. I'd suggest that if you guys really need to have some kind of figurehead, why don't you just draw lots? Y'know? When one reigning royal dies, there's a nationwide lottery that picks some arbitrary Brit to be the next reigning royal for life. It'd get around a lot of that inbreeding and jockying for position and favor crap.

'Course, I've always understood that the royal family and all those inherited peers are holders of a great deal of wealth and property. How would one go about dispossessing these parasites?

godfry

[Dragar]

How do the rides compare to Euro-Disney?

Alas, I've never been to either.

[Dingfod]

I'd suggest that if you guys really need to have some kind of figurehead, why don't you just draw lots? Y'know? When one reigning royal dies, there's a nationwide lottery that picks some arbitrary Brit to be the next reigning royal for life. It'd get around a lot of that inbreeding and jockying for position and favor crap.Mr. Bean for King!!!

[SharonDee]

How do the rides compare to Euro-Disney?Ask the butler.

Bwah!
:roflmao:

[David Gould]

As someone who has attended a costume party dressed as a Nazi I would have to say that my sympathy is with Harry. Wearing such a costume to a party is not a political statement of any kind. Nor is it intended to disrespect the people who suffered and died under and due to the Nazi regime. When people dress up as Ghengis Khan do we complain? What about when people dress up as Caligula? We have no problem with those, do we? From my perspective, such a reaction from the British tabloids is to be expected. But it is just their usual crap.