Star Trek: Voyager

[Ensign Steve]

I watched Season 1 over the last couple evenings (not too hard, since it's only 15 episodes) and some things are bugging me!

Caretaker: When were Neelix and Kes involved? I assume Neelix never went underground, as doing so is such a production that we probably would have heard of it. And I got the impression that when Kes hit the surface, she was immediately captured by the Kazon. When, between her capture and her rescue, did the two have time for a relationship? :chin:

Faces: When B'Elana's genome or whatever was split into the Klingon form and the Human form, why did the two look the same? Shouldn't the Klingon look like a clone of her mother and the Human look like a clone of her father?

All: What is with Mulgrew's eyes? Is she reading the script off her crewmembers faces? Is she on Extasy?

[livius drusus]

:chuckle: I have no answers for you, but the questions crack me up.

[wei yau]

I almost want to watch Voyager, just to fully appreciate Ensign Steve's pointed questions.

It is the one Star Trek series I could not watch.

Correction, there's also Enterprise...but I'm sure I'm not the only one with a memory block on the existence of that particular series.

[slimshady2357]

I almost want to watch Voyager, just to fully appreciate Ensign Steve's pointed questions.

It is the one Star Trek series I could not watch.

Correction, there's also Enterprise...but I'm sure I'm not the only one with a memory block on the existence of that particular series.

But you could watch Deep Corn 9? :eek:

That's the only one I can't watch, even Enterprise is preferable to DS9. Of course nothing beats Spock and the boys ;) :D

Adam

[JoeP]

All: What is with Mulgrew's eyes? Is she reading the script off her crewmembers faces? Is she on Extasy?
I can't comment on her eyes in particular, but are you talking about flicking left and right continually? This happens in real life; lots of people do it - subconsciously looking at the left and right eyes of the person you're talking to alternately. There must be a word for it but I've been unable to find it.

[livius drusus]

But you could watch Deep Corn 9? :eek:

Deep Corn is right. What a bunch of pompous cheeseball crap. That doctor is pretty hot, though.

[xouper]

I like all the Star Treks. :popcorn:

[livius drusus]

Including all the movies, xoup? :beam:

[ceptimus]

The main problem with DS9 was that they stayed put. How can that be a trek?

[Ensign Steve]

All: What is with Mulgrew's eyes? Is she reading the script off her crewmembers faces? Is she on Extasy?
I can't comment on her eyes in particular, but are you talking about flicking left and right continually? This happens in real life; lots of people do it - subconsciously looking at the left and right eyes of the person you're talking to alternately. There must be a word for it but I've been unable to find it.

Yeah. It's just really distracting when she does it. Moreso than anybody else that I've noticed (rather, haven't noticed).

Deep Corn is right. What a bunch of pompous cheeseball crap. That doctor is pretty hot, though.

Yes, Dr. Bashir's accent makes me wet. When he says herbs and vitamins and all that other stuff. Purrrr...

[JoeP]

I'm sure if you look out for it you'll notice it in lots of shows and movies. And in real life too!

[Dingfod]

It is the one Star Trek series I could not watch.Me too. I started losing interest during DS-9. I blame Mulgrew, I cannot stand her as an actress. I don't know what it is, I just cannot stand looking at her or hearing her. Sorry, I do not know what is wrong, I know it is probably me and not her, but the problem is there. Even 7 of 9 couldn't... uh, nevermind, I quit watching before I even knew about her.

Correction, there's also Enterprise...but I'm sure I'm not the only one with a memory block on the existence of that particular series.What's Enterprise?

[Goliath]

I could never take Voyager seriously for two reasons:

1. Janeway always reminded me of an over-dramaticized impersonation of Katherine Hepburn having a seizure.

2. The U.S.S. Voyager is one of the most retarded looking spacecraft I have ever seen. The damn thing looks like an electric razor! I can't take ship-to-ship battles seriously when I want to pluck one of the ships out of space and run it along my face to shave off my beard (or, rather, would want to do that if I shaved more than once every few months).

[Dingfod]

Goliath: :chuckle: :biglaugh:

[Ensign Steve]

1. Janeway always reminded me of an over-dramaticized impersonation of Katherine Hepburn having a seizure.

Mulgrew did play Hepburn on the stage. But I'm glad I'm not the only one who is convinced she's epileptic (Mulgrew, that is. Not Hepburn).

[xouper]

xouper: I like all the Star Treks. :popcorn:

livius drusus: Including all the movies, xoup? :beam:
Yep.

Apparently I'm easily entertained, if other replies in this thread are any indication.

:weirdtv:

[Ensign Steve]

I love all the Star Treks, too. All the series and the movies. I like some way better than others, but I lurve them all!

:vulcan: :starfleet: :Worf: :borg: :assimilate: :spock: :enterp: :batleth:
:beam:<--- I love this guy! Is he new?

[livius drusus]

No ma'am. He's been there ages; you just never gave him the time of day before.

[The Lone Ranger]

Star Trek: Hey, they don't call it classic for nothing! Seriously, The Original Series gets lots of credit for being so daring! Few shows ever dared to be even half so controversial and ground-breaking as TOS. Sure, by today's standards a lot of it seems dated, but it's also worth keeping in mind that the network censors actually forced Roddenberry to tone down a lot of it. (For example, in the original pilot, the second-in-command of the Enterprise was a woman -- the network forced Roddenberry to get rid of the character.)

Keep in mind that TOS was aired at a time when African-Americans were still legally forbidden to drink from the same water fountains as "whites" in much of the country. No less a person than Martin Luther King Jr. praised the show for daring to depict a future in which a person's skin color was considered irrelevant.

The original Star Trek not only dared to openly criticize racism (see "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" for a particularly pointed example), but several episodes were thinly-veiled attacks on U.S. policy in Viet-Nam, as well.

By contrast, all the subsequent Trek series have been just plain boring in my opinion, because they've so resolutely avoided doing or saying anything that might possibly be considered "politically incorrect."


Okay, granted, The Next Generation did have that one episode that subtly criticized religion ("Who Watches the Watchers"), and Dax once kissed another woman in an episode of Deep Space Nine, but that was as close as any post-TOS series ever got to doing anything "controversial," much less taking an actual stand on anything.

***

I'll be the first to say that the production values are vastly better in every series after TOS. (How could they not be? NBC always kept TOS on a shoestring budget; it's amazing that they were able to make the show look as good as they did!) Also, let's face it: the acting is better in The Next Generation than in TOS.

I think I can summarize what bugs me about all the post-TOS series in just three words: The Prime Directive. More precisely, how the characters involved respond to the PD.

Kirk, whatever else his faults might have been, understood that the Prime Directive was intended to protect other cultures. He didn't hesitate to throw the PD out the window if it were appropriate. Contrast this with Jean-Luc Picard, who demonstrated on several occasions that he was perfectly willing to stand by idly and watch an entire culture be destroyed rather than lift a finger to help them -- and he "justified" his inaction by pompous invocation of the sacred Prime Directive.


Okay, here's a fourth word that summarizes my feelings about all the post-TOS series: aliens.

In the original Trek, it was made clear that every alien society had a rich and diverse culture. Sure, there were some defining characteristics of each alien species, but they were generally treated with respect by the writers. And it was quite clear that humans were not at the top of the Galactic Pecking Order in the original Trek.

In each of the post-TOS series, though, alien cultures are treated as monolithic entities, and aliens' behaviors are entirely dictated by their species. Whereas the original Star Trek deplored racism, every post-TOS series strikes me as racist to its core, since it unapologetically insists that you need only know what species a given alien belongs to in order to know how (s)he will behave under any given circumstances.

Klingons are violent and mindless testosterone addicts who live for battle and despise anyone who doesn't. Given that it's actually stated in at least one episode of The Next Generation that Klingons despise scientists and anyone else who isn't a "warrior," it's simply not possible to believe that they could have achieved a space-faring culture. Klingons in TOS were capable of intelligence, subtlty, humor, and wit, and were clearly quite tolerant of different attitudes. Heck, Captain Koloth (in "The Trouble With Tribbles") was portrayed as a fop fercryinoutloud, but there was never the slightest suggestion that he was regarded as anything but a capable and worthy leader by his second-in-command or by his crew -- or by the captain and crew of the Enterprise.

Vulcans in TOS were noble and dignified for the most part, yet nonetheless quite diverse in their applications of the principles of Surak. And Spock was the coolest character ever. By contrast, Vulcans in The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager were typically portrayed as arrogant and hypocritical from all I could tell.

Every Ferengi is greedy and cowardly, though those who've benefited from long-term exposure to humans can rise above their species' limitations to a certain degree. Every Romulan is duplicitous. Every Klingon is warlike, even those raised by humans. Every Bajoran is devoutly religious. And so on, and so on.

If there's any lesson to be gained from each post-TOS series, it's that Homo sapiens represents the greatest species that has ever existed (heck, Picard has all but said that on numerous occasions!), and the various members of every other species are little more than walking stereotypes.

***

I stopped watching Deep Space Nine along about the time they started blatantly ripping off Babylon 5's storyline, and I was never able to get into Voyager at all, so I've only seen episodes from the first couple of seasons. I guess they eventually got home, since I seem to recall seeing "Admiral Janeway" in "Nemesis" (a movie that I'd just as soon forget I ever saw). I haven't seen Enterprise, but neither have I seen anything to make me think I'd want to.


Cheers,

Michael

[xouper]

The Lone Ranger: ... I haven't seen Enterprise, but neither have I seen anything to make me think I'd want to.
I agree with your observations about TOS.

And thank you pointing out what a doofus I am for enjoying the other Star Treks.

[The Lone Ranger]

I agree with your observations about TOS.

And thank you pointing out what a doofus I am for enjoying the other Star Treks.

Aw shucks, I certainly don't think they're unenjoyable. (Well, okay, from what I've seen of Voyager, it's unenjoyable, but that's not true of TNG or DS9.)

Despite their flaws, each of the series has its strengths. All of the post-TOS series have vastly higher production values than did TOS, making for much more interesting-looking aliens and for much neater special effects; and (let's face it) the post-TOS series generally have better acting and continuity. (There were some gaping continuity holes in TOS. Like, for instance, in the episode where the Kelvins modified the Enterprise's engines so that she could do Warp-30 or so without strain. How come they weren't cruising the galaxy at Warp-30 in subsequent episodes?)

The Next Generation had wonderful acting from Patrick Stewart, and had some superb episodes, including "Yesterday's Enterprise," "The Inner Light," and "The Best of Both Worlds"

I caught some late-season episodes of Deep Space Nine every now and then, and they had some really impressive space battles.

I'm sure that -- given some time -- I could think of something nice to say about Voyager too.

Cheers,

Michael

[Ensign Steve]

(For example, in the original pilot, the second-in-command of the Enterprise was a woman -- the network forced Roddenberry to get rid of the character.)

Do you have a source for that? It's the first I've heard of it, and needless to say I've perused a fair amount of documentaries and books on the subject.

Keep in mind that TOS was aired at a time when African-Americans were still legally forbidden to drink from the same water fountains as "whites" in much of the country. No less a person than Martin Luther King Jr. praised the show for daring to depict a future in which a person's skin color was considered irrelevant.

Agreed. One of my favorite TOS memories is an interview I read of Nichelle Nichols (Uhura). She had intended to quit the show early on, finding her role as the "ship's receptionist" less than challenging. It was Dr. King who phoned her and convinced her to stay on the show. When she told Rodenberry why she decided to stay, he teared up and said something to the effect of, "That man understands what I am trying to do here."

By contrast, all the subsequent Trek series have been just plain boring in my opinion, because they've so resolutely avoided doing or saying anything that might possibly be considered "politically incorrect."


Okay, granted, The Next Generation did have that one episode that subtly criticized religion ("Who Watches the Watchers"), and Dax once kissed another woman in an episode of Deep Space Nine, but that was as close as any post-TOS series ever got to doing anything "controversial," much less taking an actual stand on anything.

I disagree wholeheartedly. TNG has tackled euthanasia on more than one occasion. Also homosexuality (or alternate-sexuality at any rate) in more than just a gratuitous primetime girl-girl kiss. Their (and DS9's) treatment of drug addiction, addiction in general, is as politically-incorrect as anything I've ever seen on primetime.

I'll be the first to say that the production values are vastly better in every series after TOS. (How could they not be? NBC always kept TOS on a shoestring budget; it's amazing that they were able to make the show look as good as they did!) Also, let's face it: the acting is better in The Next Generation than in TOS.

Ahhh, the visual effects budget. They had to share it with Mission Impossible, who took all the money and spent it on car crashes and explosions. TOS had to make their show out of mildly-cheesy effects and excellent writing. I think in retrospect that was a blessing, as it made it a far better show than it would have needed to be if they'd had a visual effects budget of their own.

Moving forward... a whole bunch of stuff you don't like about the newer series, and stuff you do like. We're all entitled to our opinions. Me? I like it all. Some more than other, but ya know... Thanks for the good read, Michael. Have a great day. ;)

[The Lone Ranger]

(For example, in the original pilot, the second-in-command of the Enterprise was a woman -- the network forced Roddenberry to get rid of the character.)

Do you have a source for that? It's the first I've heard of it, and needless to say I've perused a fair amount of documentaries and books on the subject.


In the original pilot ("The Cage"), "Number One" was played by Majel Barrett, of course. I've read occasional interviews over the years with Barrett-Roddenberry in which she claimed that she was "demoted" to Nurse Chapell because the network demanded that the character of Number One be axed on the grounds that "no one would believe that the second-in-command of a military vessel was a woman." I seem to remember reading that in The Making of Star Trek, which is probably out of print now.

According to StarTrek.com (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/cast/111529.html) "the character's strength and authority in the Star Trek universe was unsettling to NBC and they ordered a second pilot made, without the woman, Number One." Who knows how much of that is true and how much is hype though? Still, I've read repeated claims to that effect from both Gene Roddenberry and Majel Barrett-Roddenberry.

NBC also objected to the "Satanic" Mr. Spock as well, and there are some infamous publicity photos from Star Trek's earliest days where they airbrushed his ears to make him look more human.


I disagree wholeheartedly. TNG has tackled euthanasia on more than one occasion. Also homosexuality (or alternate-sexuality at any rate) in more than just a gratuitous primetime girl-girl kiss. Their (and DS9's) treatment of drug addiction, addiction in general, is as politically-incorrect as anything I've ever seen on primetime.
I don't think it's quite the same, though. By the time The Next Generation premiered, Paramount knew very well who would be watching and perhaps more importantly, who would not be watching. The target demographic for TNG and DS9 (and Voyager) was/is far less-likely to be upset by such things than the general viewing public.

The people that TNG, DS9 and Voyager are aimed at tend to be relatively young, relatively well-educated, and (generally) politically liberal. So, depicting a future in which it's okay to be gay or bisexual, not particularly religious, etc. is hardly likely to upset their target audience. Indeed, they're pretty-much preaching to the choir. The original Star Trek didn't have that luxury, and dared to take stands that they knew would be likely to upset large numbers of viewers.

Such is my impression, anyway.

Cheers,

Michael

[Albion]

In a biography of Gene Roddenberry, it said that the network executives were nervous about the notion of a woman in a command post and of an alien (Spock) in a prominent job on the ship; Roddenberry said he couldn't fight for both, so he kept the alien and married the woman.

We're just watching Voyager too on the new DVDs, having watched it when it was being broadcast. Having got most of the way through the first series, I've come to the conclusion that most of the best episodes happened during that series and things went slowly downhill from there.

DS9 was my favourite of the Star Trek series. Unlike the others, it seemed to be about something rather than being a parade of stand-alone adventures. And Garak is far and away my favourite character in all the Star Trek series (although I gave up on Enterprise partway through Season 1). I liked B5 too - must be more of a fan of space stations than starships.

[Ensign Steve]

Well, I've established that I'm the only one on this forum who actually watches this program, but I'm going to keep talking about it anyway. Is a one-sided discussion still a discussion?

I never realized how many really good episodes there are in Season Two until I bought it.

The 37's - Okay, I thought this one was lame, but it is really popular among some fans. It's the one where they crew finds Amelia Erhart. Guess what? She was abducted by aliens. :rolleye1:

Tattoo - Flashback episode. It explains why Chakotay has magic marker all over his face. He's sexy now, and he was sexy as a 15-year-old. Can I say that?

Dreadnought - Don't know why I like this one, I just do. I guess what's cool about it is that Torres has to outsmart a computer that she programmed really, really well. Hard to explain, it's just good.

Death Wish - Immortal being wants help committing suicide. We see the Q Continuum. It's neat. Cameo by Johnathan Frakes (Wil Riker).

Deadlock - Duplicate Voyagers. One has to destroy itself to save the other. Harry dies (again), and Ensign Whatsherface has her baby.

The Thaw - Probably my all-time favorite episode! These people are stuck in a fantasy world they created for themselves. The characters in the illusion become self-aware and take the people hostage. The world is really surreal, and the final act, especially the final scene, is directed like a stage play. Lots of brilliant use of costume, set design, lighting, dialog. Limited special effects.

Tuvix - Tuvok and Neelix are merged into one being. The actor and character of Tuvix are really neat. But they have to destroy Tuvix, a new person, if they want to bring back Tuvok and Neelix. There's an ethical dilemma there, can you destroy one person to save two? The answer, apparently, is "yes" if the two you save are your friends and/or major characters on a show.

YAY!

[Ensign Steve]

I'm allowed to quote myself when I'm talking to myself, right?

Tuvix - Tuvok and Neelix are merged into one being. The actor and character of Tuvix are really neat. But they have to destroy Tuvix, a new person, if they want to bring back Tuvok and Neelix. There's an ethical dilemma there, can you destroy one person to save two? The answer, apparently, is "yes" if the two you save are your friends and/or major characters on a show.

My favorite part of this is when the doctor refuses to do the separation because he took an oath to do no harm. heh. :popcorn:

[Ari]

Remove Janeway and the over use of the reset button and I think Voyager could be a good show. They made Janeway too strong, my guess is that it was because they didn't think a women captain would be strong enough alone. Big mistake. It would really tick me off when Janeway would take over everyones job and do it better than them. Why is the chief engineer the chief engineer when Janeway has to lead her around like a baby sometimes? Know it all janeway was a big problem for me.
Some of the reset button episodes were pretty good but it became too common, it also seemed like the writers ran out of ideas or effort so they got the idea that they could just pull stuff out of their asses and then, Poof, reset.
Another thing that bugged me was the invention of physics to solve their problems.
Random crew member: Captian we can't survive much longer the _____ is ripping the ship apart.
Captain: *In wonderwomen costume* stand asside i'll fix everything. See all you need to do is reroute (the fix all solution) the primary energy conduits into the warp core flux matrix, and it will create a tachiometrical disturbance and warp gammaspacetime. Never heard of any of that? You must have taken the sissy classes at star fleet, I took the super secret advanced course. Come to think of it, you're fired, I'm going to clone myself and then we will be home in a blink. But not before I tame the federations worst enemy picking up a huge (double huge) ratings graber, er did I say ratings, I ment a technologically advanced alien used to be enemy that I will get to boss around just like you.
:)

So, my less than trek educated opinion, plenty of good ideas and stories, poorly executed.

[livius drusus]

He he... Reroute the primary energy conduits into the warp core flux matrix... It's funny cause it's true. :spock:

[Ensign Steve]

Wow, Ari, you could totally write for the show. I'm impressed. :)

[xouper]

Ari: Another thing that bugged me was the invention of physics to solve their problems.
I'm not sure I understand your complaint here. Inventing physics is the very essence of much science fiction. All the great sci-fi authors do it. Clarke, Heinlein, Asimov, Hogan, Pohl, etc etc ...

[ceptimus]

Yeah, but it's like Ari said. They make vast improvements to the ship in the half-hour before a pending disaster. The designers of the ships have been striving for generations to make tiny improvements to the engines or weapons or whatever.

Janeway: If we polarize the main deflector array with a neutrino burst, we can induce a reverse feedback pulse in the warp coil and increase the range of the transporter by three hundred percent!

Transporter design team: D'oh! Why didn't we ever think of doing that?

[xouper]

Yeah, but it's like Ari said. They make vast improvements to the ship in the half-hour before a pending disaster. The designers of the ships have been striving for generations to make tiny improvements to the engines or weapons or whatever.

Janeway: If we polarize the main deflector array with a neutrino burst, we can induce a reverse feedback pulse in the warp coil and increase the range of the transporter by three hundred percent!

Transporter design team: D'oh! Why didn't we ever think of doing that?
So the complaint is not that they invent new physics, but that they do so in an implausible manner?

[ceptimus]

Well the tech stuff is often just silly. The plot lines of the episodes are basically simple morality tales, and the tech is just put in as filler. You can imagine the main story writers picking on a theme of say, a son rebelling against his mother, and in order to make the story work the son has to be stranded where he can't be rescued...

The main story writer puts: "Son is stranded on planet and can't be rescued *tech*. Mother says, "Oh captain! He'll die without his medicine!" ...

This is passed to the tech geeks who then add the filler: "We can't beam him out captain! The atmosphere has a hexodiodum compound in it's upper layers, and it's disrupting the teleporter beam - and we'd never get a shuttle craft past those orbiting sentry robots."

Then later, the story writer needs to quickly rescue the son, and puts - "Son is rescued *tech*" etc.

At least, that's what I suspect happens.

[Ari]

I ment to expand on that but forgot. I know in Sci fi universes anything can happen and that there are limitations to a 1 hour show format, and that often sci fi shows are platforms for moral topics and contreversial topics that can't easily be addressed dirrectly.

I think Ceptimus hit the nail on the head. Voyager exists in a rather developed universe. Janeway often appears to pull the solution out of the air and talks about it like she had writen her thesis on it, yet no one else has ever heard of it before then. The solution is instantly implimented because it is aparently easy to take brand new theoretical physics work and modify the ship to match, and the problem is solved.
Star Trek in general does this a lot with medical issues.

Plenty of shows do it, but I don't think they do it as blatantly as Voyager and my biggest problem is that at a point it seemed to be used in place of good writing. The technical mumbo jumbo became the entire solution to the problem.

(Of course I might just be remember the episodes I didn't like over the good ones).

Speaking of Janeway, I think the way they designed her character could be considered almost sexist in the same way that TNG could be considered racist.

[xouper]

Despite all its flaws I find it easy to ignore them and enjoy the shows for what they are.

Maybe I should stop reading this thread. I seem to be taking it personal when people criticize things I like.

How about if those who don't like Star Trek start a thread about a show you do like. I'm sure I can come up with some criticism of it. :)

Are there ANY tv shows that nobody doesn't like?

[Ensign Steve]

I think Ceptimus hit the nail on the head. Voyager exists in a rather developed universe. Janeway often appears to pull the solution out of the air and talks about it like she had writen her thesis on it, yet no one else has ever heard of it before then. The solution is instantly implimented because it is aparently easy to take brand new theoretical physics work and modify the ship to match, and the problem is solved.
Star Trek in general does this a lot with medical issues.

I have to admit, I agree with this in a huge way. They use the transporter to fix genetic abnormalities far more often than should be possible within the Star Trek Universe.

Speaking of Janeway, I think the way they designed her character could be considered almost sexist in the same way that TNG could be considered racist.

Can you expand on that? I'm not familiar with the specific TNG racisim you are referring to.

Maybe I should stop reading this thread. I seem to be taking it personal when people criticize things I like.

How do you think I feel! Haha! C'mon let's you and me talk about what we like about the show, hmmm?

[livius drusus]

I think the goofy physics and contrived moments are part of the fun for me, just like the styrofoam rocks and smudged makeup were in TOS. It doesn't make me hate the show at all.

[Ari]

Xouper: I agree, despite all my complaining I still managed to ignore most of it to watch the series through on TV.

Ensign Steve: The racism I was refering to was what was talked about earlier in the thread. How people of a certain race will almost always fit their races stereotype.

Livius: I guess it could be considered a style. The thing is that a lot of the TOS stuff couldn't be helped. Speaking of which I have been entertained watching Andromeda on DVD and picking out reused space scenes.


Ok, so what I like about voyager. Although I have heard many fans didn't like it, I liked the one when they went back in time to earth. I also really liked the time changing storyline (the one with Red Forman as the bad guy) I thought that was an example of a reset button done right.

[ceptimus]

Hey, I enjoyed Voyager! I enjoy picking holes in the series too, but that doesn't mean that I don't like it.

See what a brilliant show it is? It can be enjoyed on so many levels. :)