Oldest Mum.

[Petra]

So, a 67 year old just had her first child, after fertility treatments that she began in her late 50's. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Romanian-67-worlds-oldest-new-mother/2005/01/17/1105810846346.html?oneclick=true)

Personally, I'm pretty disgusted by this.


What do you think about women being able to undergo fertility treatments so late in life?

[Goliath]

The idea of having children disgusts me enough, but to have them while being a geriatric?

:puke:

[LadyShea]

The fertility doctor who did this is completely unethical. In fact, the practice of treating women over 50 is illegal in EU countries, which Romania hopes to join.

[Zoot]

It's her call, and not my business.

[Petra]

While I wouldn't say it's my business what this woman does, I still thinks it's highly unethical.

This kid'll likely be an orphan before she enters high school. And the burden of caring for a very elderly mother is just fucking unfair on someone so young.


I don't think this should have been allowed to happen. If she had gotten pregnant naturally, then..well, different story I guess, but she was able to begin fertility treatment at the age of 58.

[Zoot]

Why's it a different story if she had gotten pregnant "naturally"?

What if... She got pregnant with her husband without her taking anything, but he used Viagra? What about young physically disabled parents wanting to have kids? Is it fair on their kids to have to look after them?

Just playing advocate.

[TomJoe]

I have a problem with artificial methods period. Not when there are so many orphans just waiting to be adopted.

Just my two ducats.

[Goliath]

Why's it a different story if she had gotten pregnant "naturally"?

What if... She got pregnant with her husband without her taking anything, but he used Viagra? What about young physically disabled parents wanting to have kids? Is it fair on their kids to have to look after them?

Just playing advocate.

It's still equally disgusting, and thinking about it makes me borderline-nauseous.

[Ex-zombie]

I don't think it is fair to the child. I can understand someone really wanting to have children but sometimes personal wants need to be set aside. In ten years all the relatives who could take care of this child when the mother dies will more than likely be dead. I'm speaking of grandparents, aunts and uncles.

[Petra]

Why's it a different story if she had gotten pregnant "naturally"?

Because she wouldn't have become pregnant using fertility drugs and invitro.

What if... She got pregnant with her husband without her taking anything, but he used Viagra? What about young physically disabled parents wanting to have kids? Is it fair on their kids to have to look after them?

Just playing advocate.

It's good to play advocate - makes me think a little more about it all. To be honest, I don't know how to answer your questions.

Incidentally, I think she's a single mother, so there's no partner to help out.


I guess as far as the Viagra question goes, I'd have to wonder how Viagra affects sperm quality. I don't know. I just know my reaction so far is one of disgust and I feel sorry for the child.

[Petra]

I can understand someone really wanting to have children but sometimes personal wants need to be set aside.

I agree.

[wildernesse]

I'm not sure why there's so much outrage over a woman having children at this age--men have been having children from their late 50's onward and no one really says boo about that. Is the loss of a father no big deal?

No parent is given a guarantee of their health at any age--and I know of at least one person whose parents were in their forties when they had her (naturally) and both passed away by the time she was 15. Life's not fair.

[Petra]

I'm not sure why there's so much outrage over a woman having children at this age--men have been having children from their late 50's onward and no one really says boo about that.

I say boo about it.

http://preventdisease.com/news/articles/schizophrenia_linked_to_father.shtml

[Zoot]

Because she wouldn't have become pregnant using fertility drugs and invitro.

What if someone had meningitis, were saved from death by antibiotics, and then got pregnant? They wouldn't have got pregnant without the antibiotics. What's so great about nature?

[Ensign Steve]

No parent is given a guarantee of their health at any age--and I know of at least one person whose parents were in their forties when they had her (naturally) and both passed away by the time she was 15. Life's not fair.

I agree wholeheartedly. My great-grandmother was 70 the year I was born, and gave me a run for my money until I was 25. And my grandfather's wife died of leukemia when she was in her forties. You never know.

[Petra]

Because she wouldn't have become pregnant using fertility drugs and invitro.

What if someone had meningitis, were saved from death by antibiotics, and then got pregnant? They wouldn't have got pregnant without the antibiotics. What's so great about nature?

It's not so much that nature is so great, and if she did get pregnant naturally, then it would be a whole other ethical question - should she abort, etc.

That fact is that modern medicine made her pregnant. I think it stepped in where it shouldn't have.

[Adora]

What wildernesse said. I'd start worrying about the numbers of 14 year old girls in this world having crotch droppings before we get to the extreme minority of geriatrics who pop em out. The problem of scizophrenia in this world pales in comparison to that of simple bad parenting by emotionally immature people, especially when you consider the spectrum of factors that go into causing the schizophrenia to become active in people.

But hey, if she wants, and she has the money to do it, and there are no laws against it, good for her. Every child gets their dice rolled for them when they're born, without any say in who their parents are or what their DNA, predispositioning, social status, etc is. *shrugs*

[Petra]

I agree wholeheartedly. My great-grandmother was 70 the year I was born, and gave me a run for my money until I was 25. And my grandfather's wife died of leukemia when she was in her forties. You never know.

Oh, there are definitely some very spry oldies out there. We have an 80 year old who loves parachuting and bungy jumping and all kinds of wild adventure - but what's his sperm like? What is the state of his spouse's womb and eggs? etc.


It's a health thing regarding the child made with aged sperm and egg being gestated in an aged uterus and fed by an aged placenta.

[Petra]

The problem of scizophrenia in this world pales in comparison to that of simple bad parenting by emotionally immature people,...

Emotional immaturity can be at any age. This woman may well turn out to be a "bad parent" and emotionally immature, too. Her geriatric staus doesn't guarantee emotional maturity.

[Ensign Steve]

Oh, there are definitely some very spry oldies out there. We have an 80 year old who loves parachuting and bungy jumping and all kinds of wild adventure - but what's his sperm like? What is the state of his spouse's womb and eggs? etc.


It's a health thing regarding the child made with aged sperm and egg being gestated in an aged uterus.

Would it be okay with frozen embryos and surrogate mom? Because I was responding to what you said earlier:

This kid'll likely be an orphan before she enters high school. And the burden of caring for a very elderly mother is just fucking unfair on someone so young.

[Petra]

Would it be okay with frozen embryos and surrogate mom? Because I was responding to what you said earlier:

This kid'll likely be an orphan before she enters high school. And the burden of caring for a very elderly mother is just fucking unfair on someone so young.

Good point. I don't know.


I have to go mow the lawns now, so I'll mull it over while I do that.

[Petra]

By the way, who's Sarah and Isaac? I just read at CF that Sarah had her sprog at 91.


Can you believe that?! Stoopid Bible!

[Ensign Steve]

Would it be okay with frozen embryos and surrogate mom? Because I was responding to what you said earlier:

This kid'll likely be an orphan before she enters high school. And the burden of caring for a very elderly mother is just fucking unfair on someone so young.

Good point. I don't know.


I have to go mow the lawns now, so I'll mull it over while I do that.

Don't sweat me, I'm going to bed anyway. I don't even like kids! Talk it over with wildy, I'll see ya next week. ;)

[viscousmemories]

I can understand your point, luna, but I also agree with those who've said there are much worse and more prevalent situations to be worried about. The woman could afford IVF anyway, so hopefully that bodes well for her financial life. It bothers me a lot more to see people who can't afford to have kids having them.

[wildernesse]

I'm not sure why there's so much outrage over a woman having children at this age--men have been having children from their late 50's onward and no one really says boo about that.

I say boo about it.

http://preventdisease.com/news/articles/schizophrenia_linked_to_father.shtml

Looking at the paper cited in the article, increased risk of schizophrenia does appear to be a risk when the father is over 50--but the percentage of offspring predicted to have schizophrenia increased from .7% for father under 25 to less than 3% for fathers over 50. Yes, the risk has increased a great deal, but the risk is still not even 3%.

The paper also mentioned:
Increased duration of the marriage significantly reduced the incidence of schizophrenia in the offspring showing an independent and opposite effect of advancing paternal age on schizophrenia risk. (italics added) So, the longer people have been married, the risk of having a schizophrenic offspring decreases--decreases from the 3%.

To me, a 3% risk is not worth worrying about. Anyway, take everything I said with a grain of salt because it involved math, and even with RA's half-hearted advice I probably screwed it up somewhere.

Edited to add: Sarah is Abraham's wife--you know, the founder of the Big Three. :D

[LadyShea]

Though the doc is being secretive, I guarantee this was done with donor eggs and sperm. Guaranfuckingtee.

And for the record, the cut off of every IVF program I evaluated in the US is also 50ish.

I understand wanting a biological child, but at some point someone has to put the brakes on. A woman here went through years of treatment, finally had her baby in her 50's then committed suicide 3 months later due to her fucked up hormones from age and years of fertility drugs. The more treatment you have the bigger the chance of severe PPD.

[Petra]

Man, it's hot out there! Good thing it's a small lawn. :mowlawn:


I realise that life at any age is a risk. It's a beautiful day and I'm going out for a walk around the lake soon while Zoe is at a friend's place. I have to drive to the lake and possibly be killed in a road accident on the way. That would leave Zoe parentless. She would still have a youngish grandparents (x3), a younger couple of aunties, and plenty of family all round. The child born to this elderly woman won't.

And biologically there are increased complications with both the mother and the child as have been discussed from the mother Lady Shea just mentioned to the higher incidence of both body and mind diseases.

I've tried to take into account the questions asked, and they are good questions - ones that make me go hmmm as I struggle for clear answers to them. But I'm still opposed to both the doctors and the mother for acting, as I see it, very irresponsibly.



Wildy, thank Rufus for the math - I'm really crap at math! How does the increased incidence of schizophrenia compare with other diseases in the population, percentage-wise?

And thanks for the info on who Sarah was. Sounds like we can't use her in the argument, as she wasn't real. :wink:


VM, are you saying that only rich people should have children? Should people in poorer nations not have any more children? Australian aboriginals, many Indians or Africans, Papua New Guineans, etc?

[viscousmemories]

VM, are you saying that only rich people should have children? Should people in poorer nations not have any more children? Australian aboriginals, many Indians or Africans, Papua New Guineans, etc?
No, I'm just saying that if we're going to start deciding who should and shouldn't be allowed to reproduce based on their ability to properly care for the child, I'd rather address the economic concerns before worrying about age at conception.

[Petra]

No, I'm just saying that if we're going to start deciding who should and shouldn't be allowed to reproduce based on their ability to properly care for the child, I'd rather address the economic concerns before worrying about age at conception.

Fair enough. I do see them as quite separate issues, though.

[Adora]

*hedesk*

It's Aboriginees not "Aboriginals". Aboriginal is the descriptive, such as Aboriginal Art or Aboriginal Rights. Aboriginees are the humans.

Eg: "I am an Aboriginee." or "I am an Aboriginal person".

[Petra]

*hedesk*

It's Aboriginees not "Aboriginals". Aboriginal is the descriptive, such as Aboriginal Art or Aboriginal Rights. Aboriginees are the humans.

Eg: "I am an Aboriginee." or "I am an Aboriginal person".

I stand corrected.


What does *hedesk* mean, Adora?

[Petra]

Actually, according to the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

Aboriginal: adj

Having existed in a region from the beginning: aboriginal forests. See synonyms at native.


And from WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University

The adjective aboriginal has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: being or composed of people inhabiting a region from the beginning
Synonym: native


Meaning #2: having existed from the beginning; in an earliest or original stage or state
Synonyms: primal, primeval, primaeval, primordial

[wildernesse]

Wildy, thank Rufus for the math - I'm really crap at math! How does the increased incidence of schizophrenia compare with other diseases in the population, percentage-wise?

And thanks for the info on who Sarah was. Sounds like we can't use her in the argument, as she wasn't real. :wink:


I have no idea--although it was something I was thinking of. I'm sure Rufus wouldn't claim any results I got on my own--heehee. I'll try to wander around thinking about this for a bit--my stupid paper about New Zealand is due this week. Why can't your government just not do anything for a couple of months, instead of keeping on with the press releases and cabinet papers about what they're deciding to do? It means I gotta keep checking up on them!

And my computer just ate 3 pages. I'm going to bed.

[Adora]

*hedesk* = "head meets desk" shortened to an easy movement.

[AspenMama]

I'd start worrying about the numbers of 14 year old girls in this world having crotch droppings ...

Are you referring to birthing babies here? I find your wording disgusting and a bit offensive.


Regarding the topic at hand-- I think while it is a poor choice-- it should remain a personal choice between a woman and her doctor. I take greater exception to women who become pregnant with five or more fetuses and birth them all-- knowing that most of them will have severe lifelong developmental disabilities, and they must rely on tax dollars and the goodness of others to provide for the basic needs of these children. But, even my disgust isn't enough for me to say that it should be anything beyond a personal choice.

[Adora]

I find your wording disgusting and a bit offensive.
Why?

[AspenMama]

I find your wording disgusting and a bit offensive.
Why?
To me, to use "crotch droppings" to refer to babies is like calling babies poop (read animal droppings) or referring to something you might want to throw away like a menstrual pad. What did you intend by using that wording? A bit of creative shock talk?

P.S. Of course you're free to speak as you will, and I am free to find it disgusting and express that. Feel free to ignore me, or to use my opinion as you will.