Are You Polite? [Archive] - Freethought Forum

TomJoe

01-21-2005, 06:11 PM

Do you treat people kindly: say please and thank you...

I always say please and thank you, and when I refer to people I do not know ( or have forgotten their names :P ) I say Ma'am or Sir. My parents raised me to be respectful, and I don't have a problem with it. If I have children, they'll be raised this way as well.

... assume good intentions ...

I try, but with limited success. Sometimes I can tell when someone does something boneheaded, it was a mistake... sometimes I get the feeling that they're really just not attentive (or don't care to be) and self-centered... and I can loose my patience when I get this vibe.

... refrain from interrupting/shouting/insults?

I try not to interrupt, unless it's someone I know extremely well (like family) and we're discussing a volatile topic. I'm italian, I don't know how to shut up when discussing religion and politics at the dinner table. :P

Are you more or less polite online than irl?

Probably more polite irl. This I believe is the curse of the internet. People are not always viewed as people when you interact with them without seeing them or hearing them. This is the major fault, IMO, of the internet. I fall prey to it far more often than I would like.

If I'm being polite when I'm actually seething inside, am I a hypocrite?

No, I don't think so. Sometimes we must choose our battles wisely, so there are times you just have to bite your tongue and move on without creating a scene.

If I treat someone politely even when she's tearing me a new asshole, am I being a doormat?

See above.

So, does politeness matter to you?

Yes it does. If I am a customer somewhere and the staff are rude, I won't go back. If I have to deal with people and they berate me, they'll find I'm less willing to get them what they need in a timely manner. You can't go around in life being a total jackass to people, so I don't do that, and I expect not to be treated that way too.

Where do you draw the line between courtesy and wimpishness? Is it a conscious boundary or do you just follow where your instincts lead on a case by case basis?

I don't draw that line, at least I don't think I do. I've never seen someone be polite to me (or someone else) and think "what a wimp". Now, I always figure that anyone who dates my sister and then tries to be polite to me is kissing my ass, but I think that's somewhat different. :)

Roland98

01-21-2005, 06:16 PM

I'm pretty much the same as Michael, I think. Occasionally I get burned when people are just assholes, but I usually give the benefit of the doubt.

If I'm being polite when I'm actually seething inside, am I a hypocrite?

How so? I think part of being polite is doing exactly that--responding nicely even when you'd like to scream at the other person. We all know that no one can think polite thoughts every moment of every day; IMO part of being polite is being able to take think those thoughts but not act on them in the way you'd sometimes like to.

If I treat someone politely even when she's tearing me a new asshole, am I being a doormat?

I struggle with this some times. I don't think being a doormat has to do with politeness, per se, but rather with acquiescing to someone else on a regular basis for no good reason.

livius drusus

01-21-2005, 06:18 PM

Okay I am rambling, nevermind.

You're not rambling, Shea. It's kind of a wide-ranging topic. For instance, I'm sure some people have found your blunt honesty impolite in the past, and others find politeness inherently deceptive because it sugar-coats a bitter truth, like O.G.'s post about why people say nice things in II's photo gallery thread even to people who aren't handsome/beautiful.

Still others find bringing up any potentially controversial topic impolite, or anything involving bodily functions. The more I think about it the more complexities I find.

LadyShea

01-21-2005, 06:23 PM

I'm sure some people have found your blunt honesty impolite in the past

Yes, you're correct, but do those people matter to me in the big picture? Hmm, now I think about it, I think being polite for politeness' sake is simply useless. Do you want to hear what I think or do you want to hear some polite platitudes? :shrug: Depends on the situation and goals I guess.

Roland98

01-21-2005, 06:29 PM

Hmm, now I think about it, I think being polite for politeness' sake is simply useless. Do you want to hear what I think or do you want to hear some polite platitudes?

I don't think it has to be either-or. I agree with you about the first part, but I think even sometimes bitter truths can be phrased in a polite manner, and that this may at times make the person hearing them more likely to accept them than if they are phrased in a less sensitive manner.

(And mostly I do this because I just have a hard time telling people something bad, even if it's the truth--blunt honesty is not my style, but I think you do it very well, LS).

lady cop

01-21-2005, 06:31 PM

i have had to learn some very IMPOLITE behavior in my work...sometimes i shock myself and think my parents would be appalled. i have become so blunt on the job that i have to conciously tone it down/turn it off when i am among non-criminals. it's a dual-persona thing going on! i am for the most part polite at work but when it gets nasty i respond accordingly. there's a line that gets crossed. but this is not the same as your everyday dealings with jerkwads.

TomJoe

01-21-2005, 06:32 PM

... like O.G.'s post about why people say nice things in II's photo gallery thread even to people who aren't handsome/beautiful.

I purposely stay out of threads where people post their pictures for the express purpose of saving myself the effort of having to come up with something nice to say... something so contrived that the person I'm saying it to will automatically think "What a load of crap, he doesn't think that."

LadyShea

01-21-2005, 06:33 PM

I don't think it has to be either-or. I agree with you about the first part, but I think even sometimes bitter truths can be phrased in a polite manner, and that this may at times make the person hearing them more likely to accept them than if they are phrased in a less sensitive manner.

(And mostly I do this because I just have a hard time telling people something bad, even if it's the truth--blunt honesty is not my style, but I think you do it very well, LS).

Thanks, I think ;). I try not be unnecessarily hurtful, but have found in the past that if I try to sugar coat it too much, the person hears the sugar only and fails to process the substance. Their choice of course, I just wonder why they ask me stuff if they don't want to hear my answer.

wei yau

01-21-2005, 06:51 PM

I would have to say that I'm probably a better person online than I am in real life. Not that I'm some kind of prick when I'm away from my computer, but I try harder to be polite and civil when online. I do this mostly because this medium does not lend itself well to non-verbal communication. So, I figure that by being polite and civil, I'm more likely to avoid misunderstandings.

In real life, I suppose I'm like Lady Shea in that most of my politeness is reserved for more "formal" settings. I'm polite to restaurant servers, salesman, vendors and service people. I'm polite to my colleagues and customers.

But, in more "casual" settings, I usually forego such niceties as "thank you" and "please". That's not say I'm rude about asking for the table salt. But, I won't necessary preface my request with a "please".

As far as others are concerned, I act as though they are well-intentioned. But, I often believe they are duplicitous bastards with a hidden agenda...much like myself.

It's a game within a game within a conundrum wrapped in an engima.

lisarea

01-21-2005, 07:05 PM

I think I am by default polite. I mean, I'm rude sometimes accidentally, but I was raised to be polite. My parents always taught us to be respectful and considerate of others, sometimes, I think, to a fault. The ready examples that come up are politics and religion. We were taught not to discuss those kinds of things with people we don't know well, so my tendency has always been to smile, nod, and try to extricate myself. But sometimes, it'd just burn me up for days that it seemed like everyone else was overstepping their bounds so much, and I was just smiling and nodding. So I've been working on it. I don't want to be rude to people by default or anything, but I made a conscious decision not to just let assholes bother me anymore.

I still have to work at it, because it does not come naturally, but I've developed a pretty decent "Harumph! How DARE you!" response, the kind that only we middle-aged women can really pull off, to verbal rudeness; I have a very effective technique of yelling "MOVE!" at people trying to block my way, and things like that. This also comes into effect with my perceived manipulability. (For some reason, people tend to take pretty serious liberties with me, being very overbearing, and even physically moving me around and stuff.) So, I've worked on creating a better indignation reflex, and will yell at people if they crowd me, try to move me around, or behave in a persistently manipulative way. I am also working on getting really fat so I'm more daunting. And I even appear to have the superpower of being able to make pretty much anyone cry if they make me mad enough. Slamming doors mad is like a Code Orange, while cold, calculating, button-pushing mad is Code Red. So, I've only done it a handful of times, because it's rarely warranted, but I'm damned good at it, if I say so myself. And on the rare occasions that I've gotten to that point with someone, I haven't felt the slightest twinge of guilt for being rude.

So I still think I'm much ruder and meaner online than I am in real life, but the only reason I am not ruder in real life is because I'm introverted. I actually am as bossy and obnoxious as I come across. It just gets to be more of a surprise for people in real life.

viscousmemories

01-21-2005, 07:08 PM

Like The Lone Ranger, I'm always polite no matter how rude someone is to me. This is true in real life and online. That combined with the fact that I always assume the best of people makes me a joy to be around whatever the occassion.

Okay, I'll wait for those who know me to stop wetting themselves with laughter...

Very well then.

I'm a courteous person generally. I always say please and thank you consciously, even the fifth time the waiter refills my water at a restaurant. I make eye contact deliberately, even with unsavory characters on the big city streets. Of course I'm a fairly large guy, so I'm less likely to be victimized. My many siblings are all chatty people who interrupt and try to finish each others sentences, but I don't think I'm like that. I don't think.

Maybe it's just the crowd I've run in throughout my life, but I know from personal experience that very many people are dishonest, petty, vindictive, and cruel. As a result I don't trust people until they earn my trust. This doesn't mean I'll be rude or anything, it just means that if someone I met within the last six months turned out to be a serial killer I would very likely say "Eh, not surprising."

This suspicious nature has caused me some problems in my online interactions, because there just aren't enough unwritten cues to get a firm grasp of where someone is coming from. So if you assume the worst of people (or at least, don't give them the benefit of the doubt) and react hostily to insults (as I do) you end up looking like a real asshole (as I have from time to time).

I'm about as aggressive in arguments online as I am in real life, with the primary difference being that I'm more likely to pounce on someone I don't know online than I would in real life. Fortunately I have grown by leaps and bounds over the last year in the area of giving the benefit of the doubt to people and not going for the jugular at the first sign of attack.

This is why I was somewhat amused yesterday when "Elizur" accused me of overreacting due to excessive paranoia. I haven't acted like that in a long time, so it's obvious his impression came from IIDB or HH early last year. A strong clue that his observations were based in ignorance of who I am and what I'm about.

Anyway now I'm just babbling. So I'll leave it at that for now. :)

The Lone Ranger

01-21-2005, 07:38 PM

I purposely stay out of threads where people post their pictures for the express purpose of saving myself the effort of having to come up with something nice to say... something so contrived that the person I'm saying it to will automatically think "What a load of crap, he doesn't think that."

That's one of the reasons why I almost never post to such threads: I'm definitely of the "if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing" mindset.

I hate being repetitious too (and besides, I hate repeating things), so if I glance through a thread and someone has already said what I would've said, I generally won't bother to post anything.

I'm a courteous person generally. I always say please and thank you consciously, even the fifth time the waiter refills my water at a restaurant. I make eye contact deliberately, even with unsavory characters on the big city streets.

I'm constantly amazed at how many people ignore janitors, waiters, and other "servants" as if they don't even exist. (Do they think the wastepaper baskets empty themselves by magic?) I think it's incredibly rude. Personally, I think it says a lot about the quality of someone's character that they're polite to their "servants" -- in other words, people they don't have to be polite to.

Cheers,

Michael

Dragar

01-21-2005, 07:53 PM

I'm almost always polite IRL, and online. Both of these are a combination of upbringing and deliberate intent (gosh, that sounds creepy!). For the most part (almost the whole part, but I don't match my desired standards yet), I don't wish to hurt people - politeness is good at avoiding that. It's also easier to get what you want if you're polite.

I don't always assume people have good intentions - but I do act as if that were the case.

Sometimes I am rude. This can be either when I'm exceedingly stressed, and the best way of getting rid of someone quickly is to be rude. Door to door salespeople, sadly, have felt my wrath - which wasn't so much as a wrath as a curt 'sorry, not interested!' and shutting the door. But I guess that's my wrath.

The only other time I am rude is when I think it will be more effective than politeness. If, for instance, I am complaining about my service at a shop and I'm not getting anywhere with polite...then I start making a little bit more of a fuss.

livius drusus

01-21-2005, 08:54 PM

I try not to interrupt, unless it's someone I know extremely well (like family) and we're discussing a volatile topic. I'm italian, I don't know how to shut up when discussing religion and politics at the dinner table. :P

:chuckle: I hear you. I think as long as you don't knock over the stemware during a particularly vivid gesticulation, you're still on the right side of the Italian politeness fence.

Which raises another issue: how about varying cultural standards? Do you make a point to investigate the politeness norms of a country you're visiting in order to avoid offending your hosts or even strangers?

Probably more polite irl. This I believe is the curse of the internet. People are not always viewed as people when you interact with them without seeing them or hearing them. This is the major fault, IMO, of the internet. I fall prey to it far more often than I would like.

Yup. The thing is, I'm probably more polite online than irl, because in the composition of a post I can contain my temper in a way that I can't irl. I've oftened wondered why the medium doesn't have that effect on more people.

How so? I think part of being polite is doing exactly that--responding nicely even when you'd like to scream at the other person. We all know that no one can think polite thoughts every moment of every day; IMO part of being polite is being able to take think those thoughts but not act on them in the way you'd sometimes like to.

Good point. I suppose I asked the question because an argument could be made that one is being emotionally dishonest by not revealing one's actual emotional condition. It's bullshit, though, because one could very politely say "that comment has hurt my feelings/angered me/whatever", so in that sense politeness does not preclude total honesty at all, and even if it did, refraining from full exposure does not mean one is a hypocrite.

IOW, you're so right. :)

I struggle with this some times. I don't think being a doormat has to do with politeness, per se, but rather with acquiescing to someone else on a regular basis for no good reason.

I like that definition because it allows for a consideration of the big picture instead of just looking at the single event, and because acquiescence says nothing at all about politeness. One can do it rudely just as well as politely or meekly.

livius drusus

01-21-2005, 09:01 PM

I would have to say that I'm probably a better person online than I am in real life. Not that I'm some kind of prick when I'm away from my computer, but I try harder to be polite and civil when online. I do this mostly because this medium does not lend itself well to non-verbal communication. So, I figure that by being polite and civil, I'm more likely to avoid misunderstandings.

I'm with you, my brother. I also do it because I don't much like myself in overly-emotive mode: I'm mean as a snake when I'm mad and painfully self-pitying when I'm sad. Seeing it in writing once the moment has passed sucks a lot.

But, in more "casual" settings, I usually forego such niceties as "thank you" and "please". That's not say I'm rude about asking for the table salt. But, I won't necessary preface my request with a "please".

I do say thank you and please even in casual settings, usually with a John Cleese in Fawlty Towers "K'you" twist. It's just an automatic thing. I also feel bad if I find myself taking even the most quotidian kindness for granted.

As far as others are concerned, I act as though they are well-intentioned. But, I often believe they are duplicitous bastards with a hidden agenda...much like myself.
You can't fool me, y'know. I've seen what a kind, tender guy you are. :yup:

wei yau

01-21-2005, 09:13 PM

You can't fool me, y'know. I've seen what a kind, tender guy you are. :yup:

That's more of a testament to my abilities to hide my bastardy nature, not a comment on my actual nature.

I ended up shoving heaping tablespoons of mayo into my gaping maw. One after the other until my cheeks were distended with enormous amounts of mayo. And as I squeezed with my mouth, the mayo would squish around my teeth and gums. The gloppy mess slowly oozing down my throat. Splatters of mayo dotted the table as dripping chunks would fall from the corners of my mouth. My lips were shiny with grease as I smiled through mayo-coated teeth.

Goliath

01-21-2005, 09:39 PM

Well, since I am probably at least a part of the reason why this thread was started, I may as well respond to it...

I honestly and truly despise the fact that I'm leaps and bounds nicer irl than I am on these boards (and no, that isn't because I wish I wasn't generally nice irl... :P ).

Edited to say: on further thought, lately I've noticed that I've been increasingly wishing that I didn't hate xianity. I don't know why that is, or if it would be anything but a disaster to see that wish fulfilled...or for that matter, if I'll ever find out.

livius drusus

01-21-2005, 10:06 PM

I don't want to be rude to people by default or anything, but I made a conscious decision not to just let assholes bother me anymore.

Does that mean you attempt to engage back on religion and politics or that you just try not to stew about them transgressing the civil interaction boundaries? Do you still think it's impolite to discuss politics and religion with strangers?

This also comes into effect with my perceived manipulability. (For some reason, people tend to take pretty serious liberties with me, being very overbearing, and even physically moving me around and stuff.) So, I've worked on creating a better indignation reflex, and will yell at people if they crowd me, try to move me around, or behave in a persistently manipulative way.

People don't put their hands on me much (I seem to have a default :glare: expression which puts people off, thank God), but as a short person I definitely get more than my fair share of elbowings, crushings, crowdings etc and have learned the art of the bellowed "pardon me" and purposeful crowd-cleaver stride.

Honestly, I think in crowds all politeness bets are off. One of many lessons life in Italy taught me.

So I still think I'm much ruder and meaner online than I am in real life, but the only reason I am not ruder in real life is because I'm introverted. I actually am as bossy and obnoxious as I come across. It just gets to be more of a surprise for people in real life.

Yeah but are you as funny about it irl? I mean if you managed to overcome your introversion. Because it seems to me that if people are laughing their asses off at something you said, they're far less likely to feel like they're being treated discourteously.

maddog

01-21-2005, 10:27 PM

I'm not certain how to answer this. I value politeness, certainly. I'm not at all sure, however, that I am in a position to judge, necessarily, whether I am polite or not. For example, I feel quite certain that my nephew, if asked this question, would answer that, yes, he is polite. Quite often, however, he DOESN'T say "please" and "thank you," even in situations which obviously call for it. He has his handicaps in terms of communication, and sometimes he feels it is safest to withdraw and say nothing, or as little as possible. A lot of times, however, this can come off as rude and uncaring. So a lot depends upon perception, and I'm not sure that self-perception is the most reliable guide in these kinds of questions.

To answer as directly as I can, I think I'd have to say, "sometimes I am polite, and sometimes not." I can certainly think of a number of pretty humiliating incidents in which I was far less than polite to someone. These are usually things I regret, but don't know how to fix. Other times, I have said things that I thought were perfectly fine, but somebody else took great offense. I don't know how to avoid that, because I only saw the positive aspect of what I was saying. Sometimes I'm just being casual, and other people interpret that as impoliteness.

As to other thoughts in the OP: I do generally assume good intentions and I get my feelings hurt when people don't appear to make those same assumptions about me. I'm afraid I'm guilty of interruption more often than I'd care to admit, although that's one thing I purely hate, is being interrupted. I'm a sentence-finisher; it's a fault I should rectify.

If I were to behave as I believe, then politeness is due equally to everyone, it need not be "earned," except in the sense that everyone has "earned" it because everyone should be accorded dignity. In theory, I do not/should not treat people as "lesser" depending upon some status or other, some of which "deserve" politeness and other of which don't. There are people who get my goat, however: solicitors among them. I hate being bothered and interrupted, both at home and on the phone (and junk mail and junk e-mail) for stuff I didn't ask for. I've also had too many bad encounters with "street people" so that I look away and try not to engage them, so I'm guilty of impoliteness in that respect.

I think I'm pretty much the same, both IRL and online. Being "polite" while "seething inside" isn't hypocrisy; it's the essence of what it means to "be polite." A feeling is a feeling. Courtesy is a behavior. Besides, if you value courtesy and politeness, how could it be hypocritical to model them? It seems that's being consistent with your values, rather than inconsistent (which is what a charge of hypocrisy implies). I think you can acquit yourself of that charge. If you maintain politeness while someone else is shouting and angry and rude, then that also is maintaining your own principles. How the other person views it (aaah, they're just a doormat) is none of your business. Anyway, I think we've all seen the difference between people who maintain their own dignity and strength (which is modeled by maintaining principle, even under strain) and unprincipled wimpishness.

Sometimes there is no line between courtesy and wimpishness. I can do both, or I can do one but not the other. It just depends.

All things said and done, I've been practicing politeness for quite a while now, and I have, I think, consistently improved in that area. I'm by no means perfect, however, and I continue to make plenty of mistakes. It's easier to fix mistakes if you have a foundation of respect and courtesy.
#225

godfry n. glad

01-21-2005, 10:30 PM

:dddp:

godfry n. glad

01-21-2005, 10:36 PM

Me? Uh...

I am not a very trusting person, largely because I've had too many reputedly "decent" people betray the trust I placed in them. This means I approach most interactions with a degree of suspicion. My trust must be earned.

I can be polite and pleasant. Then again, I can be an asshole. It depends upon how I'm treated. If I'm treated poorly and then the source of that treatment has a change of heart and apologizes, I can curb my often obvious distate for them and allow them to build the trust necessary.

I've also seen those who are very polite taken advantage of by unscrupulous people who manipulate such folks. I don't stand up to that and have garnered a reputation of being "blunt" and "gruff"....so much so that I have become an integral part of my workplace where most others are too polite to step up and stop the manipulation.

I can be "rude" on first contact if I feel that somebody is unloading massive quantities of bullshit or lying to me. If they can show me I'm wrong, I've even been known to apologize.

I am still learning patience in dealing with those I consider "fools"....as in "to suffer fools gladly."

Remember there are many of those out there are are polite and insincere (the Eddie Haskell Syndrome).

godfry

Beth

01-21-2005, 10:43 PM

No, I think I am a very rude person as of late. I have been so sick for a while that I am turning into someone I don't like. Which really is no excuse. I need to start calling myself into check.

Ensign Steve

01-21-2005, 11:06 PM

Oh I am totally polite. I am all about 'thank you' and 'excuse me'. I send thank you cards for every little thing*. I do the sir and ma'am thing, which I know is going to get me in trouble pretty soon, working on an army post, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I hold doors for people. I find I am especially polite on two occassions. One is when I'm driving. I've always been a defensive driver up to the point that one can allow oneself to be in Los Angeles. But here in Georgia, I know I represent California with my California license plates, and I go out of my way not to drive like an asshole. The second is when I'm in uniform, because I am representing my job.

*I feel like a regular shitbag because I wanted to send Ian and Tom something special for putting me up that weekend, but I wanted to send something more than a card but I couldn't think would would be an appropriate gift, so I sent nothing. And I didn't even call the next time I was in town because I still felt like shit over the previous time. But now it's out there. I feel like a douche.

HelenM

01-21-2005, 11:14 PM

No, I think I am a very rude person as of late. I have been so sick for a while that I am turning into someone I don't like. Which really is no excuse. I need to start calling myself into check.

I can't imagine you being rude, Beth. I hope you are well again soon.

I try to be polite most of the time because (I think someone else already said this) I appreciate it when others are polite to me so I figure other people probably appreciate politeness too.

Sometimes frustration gets the better of me.

Helen

RevDahlia

01-21-2005, 11:23 PM

I'm obsessively polite, because unless I am careful I can be a pretty arrogant, heedless, snide didacto-bot. Lots of people think I am mean and/or scary unless I tone myself way, way down and mind my Ps and Qs. I don't mind offending people if it's necessary, but I very much mind offending people inadvertantly. Hence the obsessive politeness. Now people think I'm cold and unfeeling, but better that than putting them on the defensive immediately.

I'm also kinda socially maladjusted -- I just don't understand why most people behave the way they do -- so I rely heavily on manners to help me navigate the swamp.

I don't worry so much online, because it seems to be my physical presence more than anything else that puts people off. When I'm just lines of text on a screen, it's not an issue. Also it doesn't ever occur to me to be rude online -- I think the closest I've ever been to really rude is telling O.G. that I was beginning to wonder what's wrong with him. (I no longer wonder. I KNOW.)

wildernesse

01-21-2005, 11:37 PM

Do you treat people kindly: say please and thank you, assume good intentions, refrain from interrupting/shouting/insults? Do you do this by default? Do you save your good manners for people you feel have "earned" courteous treatment? Are you more or less polite online than irl? If I'm being polite when I'm actually seething inside, am I a hypocrite? If I treat someone politely even when she's tearing me a new asshole, am I being a doormat?

So, does politeness matter to you? Where do you draw the line between courtesy and wimpishness? Is it a conscious boundary or do you just follow where your instincts lead on a case by case basis?

Offline, I am usually polite--I say all my magic words often. I usually assume good intentions of other people, but that doesn't mean that when random freako shows up at the door with a sob story, I let him use the phone. I do refrain from interrupting and insults--but not shouting, because that's fun. I don't shout at people, unless they're across the street. Or in the library.

I'm less polite online. I'm far more likely to be rude or sarcastic or something than in real life--but that's because in real life I would simply stare at the person in silence, thinking all the things I wish I could say. I do think that there is a difference from being impolite and being direct--and being direct is important, often, but I don't think necessarily impolite. Online life has taught me to be more direct in person, in some ways.

Politeness is important to me, though. One of the worst things I have ever done in my life was to be rude to someone--one of those middle school girls' clique-ishness things, where I was very rude to someone who didn't fit in. She didn't fit in with anyone much, and it obviously hurt her feelings when I shooed her away--and to know that what I hurt her on purpose for no reason is something I regretted almost immediately and still do.

viscousmemories

01-21-2005, 11:48 PM

*I feel like a regular shitbag because I wanted to send Ian and Tom something special for putting me up that weekend, but I wanted to send something more than a card but I couldn't think would would be an appropriate gift, so I sent nothing. And I didn't even call the next time I was in town because I still felt like shit over the previous time. But now it's out there. I feel like a douche.
You bitch! You better not call next time you're in town either.

Nah, just kidding. Really JD it never even occurred to me to expect a card or gift, and I wish you had called last time you were in town. Pizza and movies rocks. :) :hug:

Ymir's blood

01-21-2005, 11:50 PM

I think the closest I've ever been to really rude is telling O.G. that I was beginning to wonder what's wrong with him. (I no longer wonder. I KNOW.)
:giggle:

livius drusus

01-21-2005, 11:50 PM

For the most part (almost the whole part, but I don't match my desires standards yet), I don't wish to hurt people - politeness is good at avoiding that.

Very true. More than once I've allowed exasperation or offense to drive me to rudeness only to regret having hurt the person's feelings. As it turns out, even assholes have feelings. I should know. :wink:

I don't always assume people have good intentions - but I do act as if that were the case.

That certainly makes for better discussions, fewer misapprehensions to correct and less scorched earth to retread. Intentions are so hard to read.

Sometimes I am rude. This can be either when I'm exceedingly stressed, and the best way of getting rid of someone quickly is to be rude. Door to door salespeople, sadly, have felt my wrath - which wasn't so much as a wrath as a curt 'sorry, not interested!' and shutting the door. But I guess that's my wrath.

He he... I'm not sure that qualifies as wrath by any reasonable standard. Besides, curt and polite aren't mutually exclusive.

livius drusus

01-21-2005, 11:52 PM

That's more of a testament to my abilities to hide my bastardy nature, not a comment on my actual nature.

I ended up shoving heaping tablespoons of mayo into my gaping maw. One after the other until my cheeks were distended with enormous amounts of mayo. And as I squeezed with my mouth, the mayo would squish around my teeth and gums. The gloppy mess slowly oozing down my throat. Splatters of mayo dotted the table as dripping chunks would fall from the corners of my mouth. My lips were shiny with grease as I smiled through mayo-coated teeth.

I take it all back. You're clearly quite thoroughly evil. :devil:

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 12:07 AM

Well, since I am probably at least a part of the reason why this thread was started, I may as well respond to it...

Thank you kindly. ;)

I honestly and truly despise the fact that I'm leaps and bounds nicer irl than I am on these boards (and no, that isn't because I wish I wasn't generally nice irl... :P ).

Do you discuss the same kinds of topics irl as you do online? Everyone has hotspots, after all, and they can be concentrated on a discussion board in a way that they aren't irl.

Edited to say: on further thought, lately I've noticed that I've been increasingly wishing that I didn't hate xianity. I don't know why that is, or if it would be anything but a disaster to see that wish fulfilled...or for that matter, if I'll ever find out.

Well, I've certainly wished that for you if only because it doesn't seem to bring you anything but unhappiness, but I think it's probably a subject for another thread.

Ex-zombie

01-22-2005, 12:09 AM

Honestly I don't really think about whether I'm being polite or not. I suppose I try to be. I don't get any rudeness from people irl. I am tall and broad-shouldered maybe people are afraid to mess with me. I probably am much nicer on the internet than in real life because I get the chance to read and digest what has been posted. It's also a lot easier to ignore someone online. It's hard to ignore someone irl.

RevDahlia

01-22-2005, 12:13 AM

Here's a case study for y'all, w/r/t manners. I wonder what my fellow students of etiquette think of this.

I have a great good friend who is my soul mate in many ways. (We tried going the romantic route for a minute and failed miserably, but we're still the only people we know of who wouldn't ask questions if the other showed up at 4 AM with a corpse and two shovels.) Anyway, when I first met "B" we stayed up talking literally all night, and on a couple of occasions both of us said "Holy shit. You're ME." We have identical politics, identical approaches to life, identical overhealthy egos, identical self-doubt issues, an identical love of snarking on everything in sight. We're both smug, sarcastic know-it-alls with sepulchral senses of humor, boundless goodwill and love for humanity, and big mouths that wind up with feet in them pretty often. We both drink and smoke too much, and so on.

The big difference between B and me is that he has no truck with manners. He considers politeness a sign of weakness and dishonesty. He refuses to water himself down, says whatever springs to mind at the time no matter how potentially offensive, and everybody loves him. If our social circle were a high school he'd be the star quarterback. It bears mentioning that he's teeny-tiny and adorable and looks about seventeen. Then there's looming, odd-looking, gravelly-voiced me trying my damnedest to be inoffensive out of social caution and a deep-rooted sense of ethical necessity, and even though B and I are so similar in so many ways people react to us completely differently. I'm supposed to be this big scary sour grouch. If I behaved like he does, I'd'a been run out of town on a pike years ago.

I wonder why this is.

Ronin

01-22-2005, 12:20 AM

Not that I expect any of you to believe this...but I have been known to be impolite a time or two.

:innocent:

Generally, though, I try to give what I get.

The default being give polite first, of course.

I do notice that I am better irl than I am online. Recognizing this has been a long road for me, but I think I'm getting a handle on it.

As for my behavior within the realm of investigations, my demeanor becomes more dependent upon other factors beyond just "giving what I get" because more is at stake.

Nothing is more frustrating than getting played by a thug, especially when information/evidence can be lost.

I have my regrets.

lisarea

01-22-2005, 12:21 AM

Does that mean you attempt to engage back on religion and politics or that you just try not to stew about them transgressing the civil interaction boundaries? Do you still think it's impolite to discuss politics and religion with strangers?

It depends on the time and place. If someone brings up a subject that I would have normally just avoided entirely, I am more likely to address it now than I would have before. But more often than not, I address it by pointing out that it's rude for them to bring it up/ask me personal questions. (And telling people they are being rude is a particularly virulent strain of rudeness, IMO.) I used to just evade those kind of questions and maybe give ambiguous one-word answers or try to change the subject or something.

So, for example, if proselytizers come to my door, I will point out to them that it is inconsiderate and patronizing of them to disturb me in my home in order to try to convert me, that I am perfectly capable of seeking out any information I need on the subject of religion, and I don't appreciate having them interrupt me at home to ask me personal questions.

If I'm at work and someone starts talking about something like that, I'll do pretty much the same thing, usually. I had an evangelical Christian officemate once who did this all the time. She was very slow--stupid, even--and it was obvious that she was discussing me with her preacher or something, because she'd blurt out these silly arguments, ridiculous personal questions, and those hamhanded analogies that are so popular with that type. And I swear I even saw her checking her notes sometimes. I'm serious. And it happened every single day. I would listen politely, and say something like "That's interesting," and go back to whatever I was doing when she interrupted me. But she did interrupt me. While I was working. To talk about something I had no interest in. At first, I just told her I didn't want to talk about it, but she persisted. So I started answering her in more detail than I normally would have and pointing out various and sundry hypocrisies and the fact that she seemed to be less familiar with the bible she claimed to read every day than I was.

If I'm in a social situation, then politics and religion are fine. In fact, arguing with my family and friends is one of my favorite things ever. Family. And friends. Not J. Random Asshole on the bus or in the grocery store. Thing is, I was raised non-religious, and my parents made it a point to teach us to respect others' beliefs and not get into discussions about it, to the point that, when one of us had to go to the emergency room and the woman doing the admitting excoriated her loudly for not having a religious preference, my mom just stood there and took it, pretty much. Because we didn't have a belief, in other words, we were taught to tiptoe around those who did, for fear of offending them. But I kind of got tired of that. I mean, I don't get all over people who casually mention their religion in conversation, but I'm far less polite than I used to be as far as avoiding offense when someone is actively going to the trouble of offending me.

People don't put their hands on me much (I seem to have a default :glare: expression which puts people off, thank God), but as a short person I definitely get more than my fair share of elbowings, crushings, crowdings etc and have learned the art of the bellowed "pardon me" and purposeful crowd-cleaver stride.

Honestly, I think in crowds all politeness bets are off. One of many lessons life in Italy taught me.

Yabbut, I don't just get it in crowds! For some reason, people just touch me way too much. For some reason, I'm the kind of person that strangers feel comfortable adjusting my clothing, picking lint off me, doing stuff to my hair, things like that. If someone wants to get my attention, they're likely to grab me either by my shoulders or by an arm and just position me the way they want, rather than saying something to me (I'm a little hard of hearing, but not that bad) or tapping me on the shoulder or something.

Seriously. I'm not entirely kidding about the getting fat thing. I mean, I'm overall unhappy about gaining weight, but I have to say I like being a little larger, because people seem less likely to think they can just bend me around the place like I'm Gumby or something.

Plus, I'm not short, so I don't deserve to be treated like a one of you shorties.

Yeah but are you as funny about it irl? I mean if you managed to overcome your introversion. Because it seems to me that if people are laughing their asses off at something you said, they're far less likely to feel like they're being treated discourteously.

I don't know. I am kind of a wiseguy, I guess, but I'm not very good-natured when someone is being pushy with me. People online aren't forcing me to interact with them, so I treat them the way I treat my friends in an argument. And when I get really mad, I'm completely cold, analytical, and humorless. Which doesn't happen often. I can disagree with people on all kinds of things and even get kind of angry at their ideas and such without hating them or even disliking them. So I rarely actually get mad at a person as a person, but when I do, I can be brutal. Again, though, that's only for people who are just trash to me. Just such despicable people that I can stand coldly back and calmly goad them into a fit of trembling, red-faced rage, in hopes that I can make them pop a vessel and drop dead. That's really just when someone is genuinely being threatening or abusive or something, though, so it doesn't count.

In normal, daily rudeness scenarios, it depends on the situation. The real, core rudeness that bothers me the most is when people persistently and intrusively try to push their agendas on me. So, if you come to my door, call me on the phone, if you stop me on the street, at work, in a store, etc., you get one polite refusal. After that, I'm all about efficiency. I just hang up, walk away, yell "MOVE!" or whatever is quickest and easiest for me.

Adora

01-22-2005, 01:08 AM

In real life: Yes. Always. Curse my upbrining!

That doesn't extend to my online activities though.

godfry n. glad

01-22-2005, 01:16 AM

I don't know. I am kind of a wiseguy, I guess, but I'm not very good-natured when someone is being pushy with me. People online aren't forcing me to interact with them, so I treat them the way I treat my friends in an argument. And when I get really mad, I'm completely cold, analytical, and humorless. Which doesn't happen often. I can disagree with people on all kinds of things and even get kind of angry at their ideas and such without hating them or even disliking them. So I rarely actually get mad at a person as a person, but when I do, I can be brutal. Again, though, that's only for people who are just trash to me. Just such despicable people that I can stand coldly back and calmly goad them into a fit of trembling, red-faced rage, in hopes that I can make them pop a vessel and drop dead. That's really just when someone is genuinely being threatening or abusive or something, though, so it doesn't count.

In normal, daily rudeness scenarios, it depends on the situation. The real, core rudeness that bothers me the most is when people persistently and intrusively try to push their agendas on me. So, if you come to my door, call me on the phone, if you stop me on the street, at work, in a store, etc., you get one polite refusal. After that, I'm all about efficiency. I just hang up, walk away, yell "MOVE!" or whatever is quickest and easiest for me.

Yo, lisarea. I can identify.

I hate crowds. They seem to give some license to release their inner butthead. They seem to bring out the worst in people.

Just a suggestion: My wife and I managed to obtain a painted slate sign for the front, next to the door. It reads: Go Away, in calligraphy with a garland of ivy painted around the script. It hangs just above my postbox.

My friends know they can ignore it. As do my neighbors. Anybody else who knocks at my door and starts any kind of pitch after the door is opened, is interrupted and asked, "Are you illiterate?" If they respond to the negative, I point and state, "Then you need to pay attention." as I'm shutting the door.

I like it. It sounds like you'd be able to use one, too.

godfry

now...is that rude, or just "straightforward"?

Rosencrantz

01-22-2005, 01:49 AM

This is kind of a tangent, but I think Judith Martin (Miss Manners) is one of the wittiest writers of this century, and I thoroughly recommend anything she has published as an excellent read. Even if you don't agree with her essays about why etiquette is important or how our culture is threatened by declining social mores, she also collects letters from readers like other advice columnists and her answers are always entertaining as well as considerate.

And yes, I am very polite, though I'm terrible about thank-you letters. It is my great shame.

Dingfod

01-22-2005, 05:23 AM

I'm almost always polite, yes sir and no ma'am, please and thank you and the like. I always open doors for other people arriving at the same time, and hold them open for the next person. If the next person doesn't grab the door, I continue to hold the door open. There are countless restaurants that have an unpaid doorman that they don't know about.

I always thank someone who does something for me, from holding a door open to refilling my iced tea at a restaurant. When appropriate, I even greet the Hispanic janitorial staff that empties my wastecan with a "¡Hola!" when they come in the control room or at least a "Hi!" and "Gracias." when they leave.

I'm always waving other drivers past at intersections, allowing pedestrians to cross, and let people that are merging onto my road in. I always signal my intentions when driving. I let people with only a few items go ahead of me in line at the grocery store, its the polite thing to do.

I always identify myself when I answer the phone and when I call someone, even my wife. I never hang up on a wrong number I've dialed without an apology. I'm polite to people that dial my number by accident. A few of exceptions to that last item are:
1) The nitwits that don't know how to dial a phone that constantly dial my workplace's emergency line instead of the NFL-SHOP because they cannot figure out that the O and the P are on the 6 and not on the 0. The letters OPER on the 0 are not part of the alphabet, nitwits.
2) A fax machine that was dialing my home phone in the middle of the night, over and over and over. One time the same fax machine called during the day, I picked up the receiver and yelled at the top of my lungs "This is not a fax machine, you fucking idiots." I guess someone heard it through the modem, picked up the phone and apologized profusely.

Sometimes I think I'm too polite, a pushover. However, I do have a few politeness blemishes. One is interrupting people during conversations, especially during presentations in meetings. I don't really do it to be rude, my brain works in such a way that if I don't blurt out whatever brilliant thought I have at the time, two minutes later I won't remember what it was. Then, for some odd reason, I will recall whatever it was two hours after parting company, which works well for the internet. Because I recognize that I have the tendency to interrupt, if I catch myself doing it, I'm so polite that I will just clam up entirely and blend into the wallpaper instead, then when they ask if anyone has any question, they get a no answer.

I've been a lot more rude to the mental midgets I work with, especially lately, they really don't deserve better treatment. When at work, I almost always pleasantly greet someone that I see for the first time in the day, but when they waltz or flit past my workstation for the umpteenth time of the day, cutting through the control room to save about four steps but takes longer because they have to negotiate the cardkey locks on both doors, I don't feel the need to even acknowledge their existence.

Also, at work, I'm also pretty dismissive of people that either don't get to the point or the ramble on after making the point, if there was a point to what they were saying to begin with. By dismissive, I mean, they're rambling on and on and rather than terminate the conversation by interrupting them, I'll just start doing something else. They'll usually just go away, eventually. Most of them know me well enough now to expect that of me. It is easy to do that on my job, there are always alarms to attend to or phone calls to be made.

Anyway, online, I try to be polite. But, if I've been rude to anyone here, I apologize.

Goliath

01-22-2005, 06:19 AM

Do you discuss the same kinds of topics irl as you do online?

Not really no...in fact, irl, I've become much more of a hermit as of late.

Well, I've certainly wished that for you if only because it doesn't seem to bring you anything but unhappiness, but I think it's probably a subject for another thread.

Given the existing track record of threads about me, I'm a bit weary about the existence of such a thread. But I think you're right...I'm beginning to realize that my hatred of xianity really is making me unhappy.

TomJoe

01-22-2005, 07:15 AM

As it turns out, even assholes have feelings.

Yes, I read somewhere that the anus has a disproportionate number of nerve endings in it... :P

seebs

01-22-2005, 08:06 AM

I do my best to be polite. I'm hopelessly inattentive, though... But people seem to be able to tell I mean well, so I end up having a sort of awkward, bumbling, charm.

I'm not much for ceremonial polite, but I'm generally respectful and nice, which will pass for polite if you don't mind people using words like "bumpkin".

viscousmemories

01-22-2005, 08:32 AM

I'm constantly amazed at how many people ignore janitors, waiters, and other "servants" as if they don't even exist. (Do they think the wastepaper baskets empty themselves by magic?) I think it's incredibly rude. Personally, I think it says a lot about the quality of someone's character that they're polite to their "servants" -- in other words, people they don't have to be polite to.
I worked at a fast food place when I was 16, and in many other positions in the service industry over the years. But I'm not sure if that's why I tend to treat service people well, because I've had co-workers in those jobs who were just as disrespectful to service people when we went elsewhere to eat.

For example when I was working at a deli/cafe on sorority row, these girls would approach the counter talking and giggling with their friends, then twist their head in my direction and bark out their order without even making eye contact with me, then go back to chattering with their friends. Then when I'd put the drink in front of them they'd toss their credit card on the counter in my general direction.

I always thought that was completely vulgar, but then this woman I worked with did exactly the same thing when she and I went out to eat once. Weird.

Farren

01-22-2005, 10:38 AM

I haven't read the whole rest of the thread so I don't know if the distinction's been made but I'm "nice" without being what might be considered formally "polite".

I sometimes don't say "thanks" or "please" simply because I've never trained myself to say it as a reflex. I find "Could you pass me the Phillips screwdriver?" said with a smile normally doesn't cause ripples in most peoples ponds. But I almost never bitch about service, usually smile a lot when dealing with friends, family and complete strangers, often offer to help people with stuff (complete strangers included). I very rarely fly off the handle and then its almost exclusively with people close to me because they're the ones that can get under your skin the most - but such occassions are extremely rare. My brother and I have fought once in the last decade, IIRC.

That's not to say I don't argue at all. The last time I had a 9 to 5 job I had an extremely bright boss who I admired but could be thouroughly unreasonable at times and we bickered a lot because of what I considered unfair impositions on myself and even other staff (who I often felt were too lily-livered to stick up for themselves). Nonetheless even such arguments were conducted in an even tone with an attempt to simply be resolute rather than angry. He's similarly levelheaded about disagreements and as a result, we are still on good terms some five years after I stopped working for him full time and he has continued to come to me for project work and invite me for dinner from time to time.

99% of my arguments are dispassionate or, when passionate, often underscored by good will. I grew up with a number of people who enjoy discussing things in an argumentative fashion and no offence is taken or caused when such interactions take place. Even if its an issue of actual importance we disagree on (like my employment issues with my former boss), I'm at pains to placate people when things do become emotional and remind them that my intent is simply to resolve the issue by either having them convince me or me convince them, with the attendant self-requirement that I do consider what they're saying. I make a conscious effort to put myself in the other persons shoes and often explicity and vocally concede the point.

Curiously, I'm the reverse of some people here (at least what they've testified to) in cyberspace. Despite having used the Internet prior even to the WWW, I only started discussing things with people online in 2000. In the subsequent years I at times horrified myself with my own venom, especially in political discussions and am still going through the process of learning the good-natured approach online that comes so easily offline. The lack of body language makes it harder for me. I'm accustomed to responding to ideas in print differently because they're disembodied, so one has the luxury of passionate dislike. Unfortunately on Internet forums those disembodied ideas and subsequent responses are more intimately linked to a person in real time than, say, a printed dissertation.

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 01:13 PM

So a lot depends upon perception, and I'm not sure that self-perception is the most reliable guide in these kinds of questions.

Good point. I've definitely known people who felt they were being polite when I found them rude; personal style is a factor.

I can certainly think of a number of pretty humiliating incidents in which I was far less than polite to someone. These are usually things I regret, but don't know how to fix.

Humiliating is a good word for it. If you ever figure out a fix, let me know. I've found that the best I can do is take the hit publically and back it up with a further apology complete with more personal explanation in private. More often than not that's just a patch job, though.

As to other thoughts in the OP: I do generally assume good intentions and I get my feelings hurt when people don't appear to make those same assumptions about me.

Me too.

All things said and done, I've been practicing politeness for quite a while now, and I have, I think, consistently improved in that area. I'm by no means perfect, however, and I continue to make plenty of mistakes.

I think I've improved too, mainly in assuming good intentions, making allowances for other people's humanity (this was a huge deal for me, believe it or not, even though I was quite content to demand all kinds of concessions to my character flaws), not requiring reciprocation, and most of all, in sincerity. I've always had good manners, but now I actually mean it a lot more than I once did.

It's easier to fix mistakes if you have a foundation of respect and courtesy.

Amen, sister. :yup:

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 01:37 PM

I am not a very trusting person, largely because I've had too many reputedly "decent" people betray the trust I placed in them. This means I approach most interactions with a degree of suspicion. My trust must be earned.

I can understand that approach in highly personal circumstances (lovers, confidants, accountants), but I honestly don't get how it works in the day to day. It seems to me like there are huge swaths of people who wouldn't really have the opportunity to earn your trust just because y'all's interactions are by nature highly limited.

I've also seen those who are very polite taken advantage of by unscrupulous people who manipulate such folks.

One can be polite without being gullible or easy to manipulate. Now granted, I'm the first person in the room to fall for a joke setup -- particularly if the jester has a good deadpan; I'm a total fool for a good deadpan -- but that doesn't mean I'll let people con me into things because I'm too polite to say no.

I can be "rude" on first contact if I feel that somebody is unloading massive quantities of bullshit or lying to me. If they can show me I'm wrong, I've even been known to apologize.

Sure, but it's a hard road back. Too much effort for the likes of me. Besides, as maddog pointed out, I find lashing out first and discovering it was unwarranted later very humiliating and would rather avoid it.

Remember there are many of those out there are are polite and insincere (the Eddie Haskell Syndrome).

Yeah, but Eddie was as transparent as it gets. I don't even think Mrs. Cleaver was really fooled. I assumed she was just playing along out of convenience (and possibly large quantities of valium).

Meanwhile, there are many who are sincere and kind but whose impoliteness obscures that. It can be harder to spot the nice guy underneath the snarl than it is to spot the amoral bastard underneath the smile.

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 01:39 PM

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 01:44 PM

I find I am especially polite on two occassions. One is when I'm driving.

:shocked: Holy crap. I think you may be one of a kind.

*I feel like a regular shitbag because I wanted to send Ian and Tom something special for putting me up that weekend, but I wanted to send something more than a card but I couldn't think would would be an appropriate gift, so I sent nothing. And I didn't even call the next time I was in town because I still felt like shit over the previous time. But now it's out there. I feel like a douche.

Like those two barbarians would know the difference. :giggles:

Seriously though, I've totally fallen down that rabbithole myself: bite off more politeness than I can chew in order to have it match my sincere feelings on the matter = do nothing = shame spiral = do even worse than nothing. In the end all you can do is cop to it, feel like a douche, and pick up where you left off.

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 02:00 PM

Sometimes frustration gets the better of me.

Frustration is my greatest enemy when it comes to treating people with what are to me basic minimums of courtesy. I feel like a kid on the verge of a tantrum again -- so packed with irritation I could just scream -- and it's a hard, hard thing to overcome.

Walking away isn't always possible and even when it is, I can keep the frustration momentum going just by thinking about it. I have to make a conscious effort to turn my mind to other things in order for the barometer to drop again.

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 02:17 PM

I'm obsessively polite, because unless I am careful I can be a pretty arrogant, heedless, snide didacto-bot.

I can't imagine what you mean. :shifty:

I don't mind offending people if it's necessary, but I very much mind offending people inadvertantly. Hence the obsessive politeness. Now people think I'm cold and unfeeling, but better that than putting them on the defensive immediately.

Ditto on the first part, almost ditto on the second. People frequently think I'm cold and unfeeling when I'm at my politest in a discussion, but if I make an effort to connect on a personal level I think I tend to counter that impression.

I'm also kinda socially maladjusted -- I just don't understand why most people behave the way they do -- so I rely heavily on manners to help me navigate the swamp.

That's really interesting. I've never thought of it that way before, but of course it makes sense that manners would make a useful rudder. I myself figure most people behave the way I have/would/do and move on from there.

Also it doesn't ever occur to me to be rude online -- I think the closest I've ever been to really rude is telling O.G. that I was beginning to wonder what's wrong with him. (I no longer wonder. I KNOW.)

You've never gotten so frustrated in a discussion that you snapped at someone? (Besides O.G., I mean.)

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 02:32 PM

I do think that there is a difference from being impolite and being direct--and being direct is important, often, but I don't think necessarily impolite. Online life has taught me to be more direct in person, in some ways.

Intriguing. Online life has taught me to tread more carefully where there's potential for hurt feelings in person. Weird isn't it? I wonder what that's about, if there's something about online interaction which helps us see ourselves in a different light, helps us fill in gaps, better than irl.

Bah... I'm sensing half-bakedness. Better stop now.

Honestly I don't really think about whether I'm being polite or not. I suppose I try to be. I don't get any rudeness from people irl. I am tall and broad-shouldered maybe people are afraid to mess with me.

I'd just like to take this moment to note that tallness is really cool and I wish I had it.

I probably am much nicer on the internet than in real life because I get the chance to read and digest what has been posted. It's also a lot easier to ignore someone online. It's hard to ignore someone irl.

You think? A lot of people seem to find ignoring someone online really difficult. For me it depends. I can ignore pedantic, self-righteous, superior assholes easily. Nazis, not so easily.

Ensign Steve

01-22-2005, 02:35 PM

bite off more politeness than I can chew in order to have it match my sincere feelings on the matter

Yes, that describes it exactly! Thank you. :)

livius drusus

01-22-2005, 02:44 PM

Not that I expect any of you to believe this...but I have been known to be impolite a time or two.

:shock:

Generally, though, I try to give what I get.

The default being give polite first, of course.

Of course, otherwise they'd be entitled to treat you discourteously based on your own standard.

I do notice that I am better irl than I am online. Recognizing this has been a long road for me, but I think I'm getting a handle on it.

Rumor has it you're downright warm and fuzzy on the phone. :)

Anyway, on a personal note, I think there's a genuine and perceptible politeness difference between you online now and you online 3 years ago. And I'm not just saying that so you'll reciprocate, either.

This is kind of a tangent, but I think Judith Martin (Miss Manners) is one of the wittiest writers of this century, and I thoroughly recommend anything she has published as an excellent read.

I've read many of a column of hers and I quite agree: she's an excellent writer and a politeness savant of Rain Man proportions.

And yes, I am very polite, though I'm terrible about thank-you letters. It is my great shame.

Mine too. They're great when I write them too. It's just getting around to actually doing it that's the problem. :kickscan:

LadyShea

01-22-2005, 04:16 PM

Ah the dreaded thank you note. Sticky issue with me. I find formal "thank yous" cold amongst close friends and family. Call me and tell me thank you or tell me in person, reciprocate whatever (buy dinner next time, be my shoulder/shelter/sounding board when I need it, etc.). My sister in law sent me three separate thank you cards for xmas, one for procuring on ebay the most sought after, sold out toy her boys wanted, then one for each of the boys for the coins and toys we got them. She had already almost cried her appreciation on the phone for the eBay thing, which was way more than sitting on my ass watching the auctions warranted, and that was good enough for me.

Oh and I can't abide rudeness to waiters and such either. I have a very good friend who was so unspeakably rude to people that another friend and I (both a bit older than she) literally sat her down and told her we wouldn't go out with her anymore unless she allowed us to teach her some manners. So here we are at Mr. Lucky's and she is being told right out loud to look at the waitress, acknowledge that she is a person by saying "good evening" or "hi", and say please and thank you. I found out where she got this when I had the bad luck of having dinner with her mother...rude arrogant bitch who doesn't consider servants people at all. Some of you have met my friend, Erin, and she is a joy to go out with now.

PS. Miss Manners rocks, I have tried to perfect the look that says "How terribly rude of you to ask/say/do" that she described once.

TomJoe

01-22-2005, 04:26 PM

I have no idea why people would wish to be rude to waiters/waitresses and those in a position to fuck with your food!

I have worked at enough restaurants to know that some really evil shit can be done to food behind those kitchen doors.

Dragar

01-22-2005, 04:36 PM

I'd just like to take this moment to note that tallness is really cool and I wish I had it.

I'd just like to take this moment to note that I share livius' pain.

godfry n. glad

01-23-2005, 08:22 PM

I'd just like to take this moment to note that tallness is really cool and I wish I had it.

I'd just like to take this moment to note that I share livius' pain.

I guess I make it a support group. I share her pain, too.

godfry

godfry n. glad

01-23-2005, 08:26 PM

I find I am especially polite on two occassions. One is when I'm driving.

:shocked: Holy crap. I think you may be one of a kind.

I'll say. We have a saint in our midst.

Ensign Steve

01-23-2005, 09:08 PM

godfry n. glad

01-23-2005, 09:33 PM

:innocent:

Hm, must be a Los Angeles thing. I find 99.9999% of LA drivers are uber-polite. We have to be or the whole freeway system wouldn't work. Of course when there are 50 kajillion quabillion cars on the road, that other 0.0001% of drivers does add up to a significant number, and it gives a bad impression on the rest of us. ;)

Like in the movies, when there's a real bad traffic jam and the foley guys or whoever always add the sound of horns honking? WTF is that? People don't honk their horns in LA traffic jams. What would be the point?

I wouldn't know about freeway traffic jams. I try to stay off of freeways unless I'm doing an intercity thing. But, I'll tell you, every time I get behind the wheel of my van and try to negotiate city traffic, it trys my delusion that my fellow humans are basically decent people. I see so many acts of sheer stupidity, self-centeredness and wanton recklessness on the part of other drivers that it scares me. So many people are such dickheads when they drive.

It never crosses my mind to be particularly polite to some shitforbrains who is manuevering their oversized SUV down a narrow but busy arterial while eating a hamberger and talking on a cellphone.....

godfry

Ensign Steve

01-23-2005, 09:46 PM

It never crosses my mind to be particularly polite to some shitforbrains who is manuevering their oversized SUV down a narrow but busy arterial while eating a hamberger and talking on a cellphone.....

godfry

Yeah, it would probably be a lot safer if you just cut him off. Flip him the bird, while you're at it. That's how we stay safe on the road.

;)

Edited to add winky, so godfry doesn't get the wrong idea that I'm picking on him or, eep!, being impolite. ;) <-- winky again

Adora

01-24-2005, 12:45 AM

I'd just like to take this moment to note that tallness is really cool and I wish I had it.
It's only cool if you have your length in the right parts of your body, or evenly spaced out.

Dingfod

01-24-2005, 12:51 AM

Like in the movies, when there's a real bad traffic jam and the foley guys or whoever always add the sound of horns honking? WTF is that? People don't honk their horns in LA traffic jams. What would be the point?Besides, it would be a good way to get shot.
It never crosses my mind to be particularly polite to some shitforbrains who is manuevering their oversized SUV down a narrow but busy arterial while eating a hamberger and talking on a cellphone........while writing in their dayplanner and steering with their knee.

You're talking shit about oversized SUVs and you drive a van? It better be a minivan, pal.

Ensign Steve

01-24-2005, 01:01 AM

Dingfod

01-24-2005, 01:17 AM

I guess I should've put a winking smiley because I was just kidding.

Ex-zombie

01-24-2005, 01:17 AM

That makes me sad, the way you just totally blew off what I said. Those shootings were like forever ago, and that was just a couple people out of the millions upon millions of people who drive in LA every day. One bad apple does not spoil the bunch. The horn-honking, gun-toting, cell-phone using, SUV-driving LA motorist is a stereotype, and an inaccurate one.

I have to agree with you Ensign that California freeways get an awful lot of bad press. The rudest drivers I have encountered were in the state I grew up in-North Carolina. I went to visit my mother there two years ago and I don't think I have ever seen so much road rage. My 65 year old mother while behind the wheel of her car was flipped off three times, told to fuck off and move your ass once, and cut off abruptly twice. It was a fifteen minute ride to the local grocery store.

godfry n. glad

01-24-2005, 01:24 AM

It never crosses my mind to be particularly polite to some shitforbrains who is manuevering their oversized SUV down a narrow but busy arterial while eating a hamberger and talking on a cellphone........while writing in their dayplanner and steering with their knee.

Nah...She only had two hands. No dayplanner, but steering with the knee.

You're talking shit about oversized SUVs and you drive a van? It better be a minivan, pal.

I'm not quite sure where I "talked shit" about oversized SUVs, but I drive a l'il ol' Toyota Siena minivan.

...Pal.

godfry

Dingfod

01-24-2005, 01:31 AM

Man, is this my night to piss people off or what? I think I'll go curl up and die now, thanks.

godfry n. glad

01-24-2005, 01:37 AM

It never crosses my mind to be particularly polite to some shitforbrains who is manuevering their oversized SUV down a narrow but busy arterial while eating a hamberger and talking on a cellphone.....

godfry

Yeah, it would probably be a lot safer if you just cut him off. Flip him the bird, while you're at it.

Nah, I didn't cut her off or flip her off. I try to distance myself from an accident about to happen...it's called defensive driving. I have been known to utilize digital communication to convey my low opinion of another's driving skills, though. It's very satisfying. For me.

godfry

Ensign Steve

01-24-2005, 01:49 AM

godfry n. glad

01-24-2005, 01:53 AM

Man, is this my night to piss people off or what? I think I'll go curl up and die now, thanks.

Hey, I'm fine. At least I didn't say "shitforbrains driving a big-ass, chunky tired, chrome-dripping Detroit pickup with the Easyrider rifle rack in the winda."

So ya know I wasn't making a veiled reference to you, worn. :D

As for the shootings.... We didn't have 'em around here until this place was adjudged to be one of the best places in the U.S. to live. In the following twenty years, driver etiquette went from decent to blown chunks. I attribute it to the large influx of drivers from other locales....primarily southern California. They caught one highway shooter up here....guess what? He was a Californian. Heh...

godfry

Ensign Steve

01-24-2005, 01:55 AM

OUCH! :sadnana: I'm going to bed.

viscousmemories

01-24-2005, 01:56 AM

Of all the places I've driven I think the highways in and around Detroit have the most aggressive drivers. Then again I've never been to North Carolina (thank god, apparently). Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago, San Diego, San Francisco... no problems.

godfry n. glad

01-24-2005, 05:30 AM

It never crosses my mind to be particularly polite to some shitforbrains who is manuevering their oversized SUV down a narrow but busy arterial while eating a hamberger and talking on a cellphone.....

--snip--

Nah, I didn't cut her off or flip her off. I try to distance myself from an accident about to happen...it's called defensive driving.

godfry: in my first post, I used defensive driving and politeness to mean the same thing. I didn't realize that you differentiate them, sorry for the confusion.

Nah...it's not a problem, Ensign. I'm sorry you're defensive about being from LA. If it helps, two of my closest friends are Californians, one's even from LA. (She vehemently claims that LA drivers drive "fast, close and safe.") One of my other good friends is from New Jersey. Very few people who live in Oregon, where I live, are Oregon natives. We have been inundated by outsiders in the past twenty years.

If it's any consolation, New England is much, much worse than California as far as driving goes. I would refuse to drive in Boston. That is insanity.

godfry

Dingfod

01-24-2005, 07:16 AM

Shake

01-24-2005, 04:11 PM

To paraphrase from the movie Roadhouse:

I'm polite until it's time to not be polite.

godfry n. glad

01-24-2005, 04:13 PM

According to crime rate statistics, you are about as liable to be a victim of violent crime in Tulsa as in Los Angeles. I'd bet there are proportionately more gas-guzzling pickup trucks and SUVs with gun racks here than there.

Well, duh.

You are in Oklahoma.

I'd bet there's proportionally more gas-guzzling pickup trucks and SUVs with gun racks around these parts than there are in LA. I'd also be there's a hell of a lot more convertibles with a smallish handgun in the glove compartment in LA then there is in either Tulsa or Portland. Proportionally, that is.

Beth

01-24-2005, 06:24 PM

No, I think I am a very rude person as of late. I have been so sick for a while that I am turning into someone I don't like. Which really is no excuse. I need to start calling myself into check.

I can't imagine you being rude, Beth. I hope you are well again soon.
Thanks Helen. :) I'm much better now. Drat those winter bugs! I have a hard time imagining you being rude as well, but I am sure that my rudeness has been amply evidenced in illtempered posts. :blush:

I try to be polite most of the time because (I think someone else already said this) I appreciate it when others are polite to me so I figure other people probably appreciate politeness too.

Sometimes frustration gets the better of me.

Helen
I know. I am most rude to my own family. I have started the niceties again because I thought that familiarity was breeding too much rudeness and I am the one who sets examples. I gets hard to remember to calm myself to say please or ask my kids politely to do something when I am overwhelmed with them, but it seems that when they don't see my politeness as an invite to walk all over me, they respond rather well.

Beth

01-24-2005, 06:27 PM

No, I think I am a very rude person as of late. I have been so sick for a while that I am turning into someone I don't like. Which really is no excuse. I need to start calling myself into check.

Well, if you find yourself rude lately due to the discomfort of illness, it seems likely that you are in fact polite. :)Thank you. Not sure I agree, but thank you. :)

wildernesse

01-24-2005, 10:02 PM

I do think that there is a difference from being impolite and being direct--and being direct is important, often, but I don't think necessarily impolite. Online life has taught me to be more direct in person, in some ways.

Intriguing. Online life has taught me to tread more carefully where there's potential for hurt feelings in person. Weird isn't it? I wonder what that's about, if there's something about online interaction which helps us see ourselves in a different light, helps us fill in gaps, better than irl.

Bah... I'm sensing half-bakedness. Better stop now.

In person, I am usually too quiet/meek in conversations--I don't ask, or probe, or inquire normally. I worry about every single thing I say to people--whether I am going to hurt their feelings or say something horrible. I stress out over conversations I had years ago.

There are no leading silences or forbidding looks or open body language online--so if I want to know something or tell someone something, I have to say it outright. And I haven't died yet due to that, so it makes me more bold IRL.

Legs

02-06-2005, 04:53 AM

I am probably a little too polite.. but it feels right for me, cursing and obscenites do not form easily and I think I sound ridiculous on the rare occasion I used one... it's just not me.

livius drusus

02-06-2005, 05:04 AM

Oh, I'm a bit of a pottymouth, myself, although I don't indulge in the full anglo-saxon vocabulary with strangers. Know your audience, as the man says.

godfry n. glad

02-06-2005, 05:55 AM

My father was a construction worker, then a construction inspector. He knew blue language and knew that his sons knew blue language. But he impressed upon us the importance of reserving use of rude, crude, lewd and otherwise unsophisticated language. That way, once building a reputation for being sparing with the rough language, when you do use it, people will listen.

If, on the other hand, one uses profanity on a regular basis, the coin of the insult is debased in overusage. People will probably start listening to what one has to say if the profanity is removed. Well...possibly.

godfry

Brimshack

02-06-2005, 11:16 AM

Double Post.

Brimshack

02-06-2005, 11:17 AM

Just responding directly to the OP, I think I've always been a little more courteous than usual, at least in some areas. I have always been willing to hold the door open a little longer than most, and I tend to say thank you every time someone does something for me, no matter how trivial. I can't stand to be served. I noticed this when my brotyher and his girlfriend would eat something and the assumption was that she would fix it while he and I watched TV. I literally couldn't bring myself to sit back and enjoy it, hadda help. In general, I think I do pretty well that way.

On the other hand, I lack any real sense of social grace, so I feel quite certain that I must rub people the wrong way in a lot of ways I don't intend to or even notice. I know I tend to say things that bug people, especially when I first meet them, and for a few times after that. So, I don't know if my accidental rudities outweigh my habitual courtesies or not, I can only hope the reverse is the case.

On the final twist, where I work white people have a reputation for rudeness, pushyness, bossyness, and a general lack of interpersonal skills. I am also well aware that my approach to teaching and every aspect of the college has the tendancy to confirm this for everyone I meet. I am by local standards pushy, loud, bossy, and generally disrespectful, and I can't imagine any other way to get things done here. If I conformed to local standards of courtesy, I couldn't get any of my students to do their work, and I feel quite certain one of the reasons I am still here is because I, unlike a Navajo teacher, can say "alright you get an 'F'." In the work environment, my willingness to violate some standards of courtesy are an important asset, but outside the classroom I don't want to make an enemy of everyone I meet.

So I've learned to counter the stereotype by being just a little more deliberate about common courtesies. I deliberately slow my physical movements when I am on the reservation, at least in common areas other than the college. I don't push past people who are walking slowly, and I don't dodge around them like I used to when someone was in the way. I wait for people to deal with me in their own time instead of getting down to business too quickly. I don't just say "thanks" (with falling tone) anymore to a convenience clerk or a waiter, I say "thank you" (with a slightly raised picth) and look him or her in the eye. I try not to overdo it with the politeness, that wouldn't help either. But when you are a fish out of water and people are looking to see if you are rude, just an extra ouce of effort can really go a long way. I expect this has bleed out into other areas of my life as well.