Poetry Corner: Tennyson's *Ulysses*

[livius drusus]

Just to limber up the reading group before diving into a full-length book, we're going to open up with a little poetry discussion. Ulysses by Alfred, Lord Tennyson will be our first victim, a nicely numbered version of which can be found here (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2191.html).

By way of introduction, I thought I'd pull together some information on the poet himself and the context of the poem. Hopefully this will help anyone not familiar with the work to read it without having to decipher the basic plot.

Tennyson, A Mini-Bio

Alfred Tennyson was born in 1809 the fourth son of a rector with a couple of rich relatives who pretty much ignored them. His first poems -- written with his brothers Charles (an parson and opium addict who 6 years later would inherit an uncle's estate) and Edward (who 6 years later would check into a mental institution and stay there until his death in 1890) -- were published in 1827, the same year Alfred enrolled in Trinity College, Cambridge.

At Trinity he became close friends with poet Arthur Henry Hallam, who would review Tennyson's first solo venture Poems, Chiefly Lyrical, published in 1832. Hallam dug it; nobody else did. Deflated by the harsh reviews, Alfred stayed away from publishing for the next 10 years.

Then, in 1833 at the age of 22, Arthur Hallam died. Tennyson was devastated and wrote what may be his most famous poem In Memoriam -- published anonymously in 1850 -- about his loss. It took him years to write In Memoriam, but he wrote Ulysses within a few weeks of Hallam's death and said that Ulysses "gave my feeling about Hallam's death perhaps more simply than anything in In Memoriam".

(So, mortality, friendship, dealing with loss: check.)

He finally published Ulysses in a collection known simply as Poems in 1842. It was hugely popular and cemented his reputation as the preeminent poet of his time. He was put on the Civil List in 1845 (scoring him a lifetime annuity of 200 pounds) and was appointed Poet Laureate in 1850, the same year he got married to long-time fiance Emily Sellwood.

He had two sons, Hallam and Lionel, published more highly acclaimed poetry, accepted the baronetcy which put the Lord between his first and second name, and remained very popular until his last days, although the backlash against Tennyson's very Victorian themes of struggling to overcome the difficulties of life, hope winning out over despair, romantic, heroic figures striving for excellence, the individual finding his place in the divine purpose through self-knowledge and self-control, was already setting in by the time of his death in 1892.

(So, surmounting the obstacles of life, hope over despair, heroic figures striving for excellence, self-knowledge leading to understanding and acceptance of ordained place in the universe: check.)

And that's all for now, folks. :sigh: Stay tuned for the plot and theme intro to Ulysses tomorrow.

[livius drusus]

Ulysses, A Mini-Bio

Ulysses, Odysseus in Greek and hero of Homer's Odyssey, was the king of Ithaca, known for his courage and cunning. His cunning had gotten him a wife -- Penelope -- by devising an offer her uncle Tyndareus couldn't refuse. Namely, he offered a solution to the problem of how to get Tyndareus's stepdaughter Helen married without pissing off the dozens of other suitors and starting a war: make everyone swear an oath that he would defend and protect Helen's chosen husband in any matter regarding the marriage.

In return for that solution, he got himself Penelope. As it turned out, he also got himself the Trojan War, after Paris, prince of Troy, abducted Helen from her husband Menelaus and whisked her off to Troy. Menelaus and his brother Agamemnon invoked the oath and basically dragged all of Greece, including Ulysses, into the Trojan War.

The war lasted 10 years and was finally concluded when Ulysses thought up the stratagem of building a giant wooden horse, packing it with Greek soldiers (including himself), slapping on a dedication to Athena for the safe return of the fleet, and parking it out front. The fleet pretended to sail off and the Trojans, totally buying that the giant wooden horse was a gift to appease the gods, rolled it into the citadel and had themselves a big ol' end of war party.

Once night fell, the soldiers burst out of the horse's belly and destroyed the city, ending the war, but pissing off the gods by looting and burning their temples as well. Pissed off gods do not make for swift and uneventless journeys home, needless to say, and Ulysses really rocked the boat (so to speak) when at the beginning of his homeward voyage he blinded the cyclops Polyphemus, who just happened to be the son of Poseidon, god of the seas.

He therefore found himself adventuring another ten years before finally getting home to Ithaca. During those ten years he killed and maimed people and creatures, had a variety of affairs with the likes of Circe and Calypso, and put his men in near-constant danger despite warnings from gods and seers. As predicted, by the time he got home his army was dead and he was alone.

Once he got there, he found his palace full of suitors vying for Penelope's hand (and a shot at the kingdom). She'd been putting them off for ages but they were getting antsy so it looked like she'd have to take one of them on. Home just in the nick of time, he devised another clever plan (anyone who could bend Ulysses' superbow would get to marry Penelope), won, and then shot the suitors alongside his son Telemachus.

According to various myths, Odysseus lived happily ever after, dying peacefully in his bed, or was exiled, or killed by his son with Circe.

Ulysses in Tennyson's Poem

So, when Tennyson catches up with our hero, he's finally home after his twenty year absence. The entire poem is a blank verse -- which just means that the verses have a sense of rhythm but don't rhyme -- monologue interieur -- which just means it's Ulysses talking to himself.

Is he really just talking to himself, though, or is he at least in part addressing other people? What is saying about himself, his current life, his past? Does it look like he's living happily ever after with his faithful wife and good son? Is he content to rule the kingdom it took him ten years of constant struggle to reach? Is he fulfilled in his old age? What does he want to do with his remaining life? Do you see any references to some of the themes in purple from my post above?

Is there any phrasing in the poem that you'd like elucidated? Am I ever going to stop asking questions?

[LadyShea]

Do you mind if I discuss in sections? I am not very familiar with discussing poetry, but want to take a shot here.

I think the first few lines indicate U is not fulfilled, using the words "idle", "barren", "still" and describing his wife as "aged". It sets a tone of...boredom? Regret that the adventuring is done? Maybe even feeling cheated like "I slogged through shit for decades for this?" He discusses "meting and doling" out "unequal" laws, again a chore that he cares nothing about and brings no satisfaction. He also seems to not identify with or feel part of his people, describes them as a savage hoard that eats and sleeps but don't know him either.

All in all he starts off seemingly bitter and lonely.

[livius drusus]

Do you mind if I discuss in sections? I am not very familiar with discussing poetry, but want to take a shot here.

I don't mind at all; in fact, I think it's better that way. Thank you for taking the plunge. :)

I think the first few lines indicate U is not fulfilled, using the words "idle", "barren", "still" and describing his wife as "aged". It sets a tone of...boredom? Regret that the adventuring is done? Maybe even feeling cheated like "I slogged through shit for decades for this?"

I definitely see all three of those in there: boredom, regret, feeling shortchanged. I'd add that the opposite of "idle" is "industrious", so U might be feeling like his skills are going to waste in Ithaca, like he's not living, but just existing.

He discusses "meting and doling" out "unequal" laws, again a chore that he neither cares about nor brings satisfaction.

Right. It's like he considers the actual work of kingship insignificant, uninteresting, and his people, the people of Ithaca, a "savage race" who do nothing but hoard, sleep and eat. I think it's interesting how he ends that verse, incidentally:

"That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me."

Their pedestrian lives make them akin to animals (savage race), but you've got to wonder: is he even more pissed that they aren't hero worshipping him? Would he see them as a little less savage if they knew him as the hero of the Trojan war and seafaring adventure?

[LadyShea]

I read the hoard part incorrectly :paperbag: .

Their pedestrian lives make them akin to animals (savage race), but you've got to wonder: is he even more pissed that they aren't hero worshipping him? Would he see them as a little less savage if they knew him as the hero of the Trojan war and seafaring adventure?

Oh definitely. He expects them to be in awe, he expects power to bring him the same satisfaction as warrioring, but he's become a paper pushing bureaucrat. Plain people trying to live their simple lives don't really care about his Trojan horse.

[Beth]

There are some things that I notice in this poem. One that I can think of most right now is that this is taking place on his death bed. Ulysses seems to be reflecting on his life with some sort of agnosticism, which totally contradicts the message that I was taught in 8th grade in my Abeka English lit books. (I was taught this was a faith affirming poem that reflect the ideal that we must always look to the goal -purity, righteousness- and strive ahead.) He seems to have faith neither in and gods nor in his own life nor in the preservation of his kindom, for that matter. He sounds like I feel when I am just on the point of giving up.

He indicates a death bed type reflection in lines 33-43 when he indicates that his son will have his sceptre and isle and then he lists some qualities of his son and then indicates that he will be capable in line 43, "When I am gone. He works his work, I mine."

It seems that he is near death in lines 45-46. He speaks of reuniting with his mariners on a vessel on a dark, broad sea:

"44There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail:
45There gloom the dark, broad seas. My mariners,
46Souls that have toil'd, and wrought, and thought with me-- " ---This terminology often indicates venturing into death, IMO.

There is more. but I am just writing at the top of my head. I'll try to prepare something more detailed.

[Beth]

I also like to say that from what I have read about Tennyson, it appears that Ulysses was written a couple of months before Hallum's death.

In Tennyson's Memoirs he wrote that it "gave [his] feeling about the need of going forward, and braving the struggle of life."
To me, the whole melancholy feel of the poem totally contradicts this statement. This poem makes me feel that all in life is really in vain. It has the feel that life is vanity. Toward the end, there seems to be less unsurity and that he has more purpose. But this is the part that I think he is reflecting on a more romantic view of death.

[livius drusus]

I read the hoard part incorrectly :paperbag: .

I take it to mean people go about their lives, collecting stuff, possessions, things for themselves and their families: anything from a home to flatware to furniture, etc.

Oh definitely. He expects them to be in awe, he expects power to bring him the same satisfaction as warrioring, but he's become a paper pushing bureaucrat. Plain people trying to live their simple lives don't really care about his Trojan horse.

Right, and I think he later makes that clear in verses 13-15 when he says he's seen great cities, manners, governments, etc and was not the least of these great ones but the most honored among them.

[livius drusus]

There are some things that I notice in this poem. One that I can think of most right now is that this is taking place on his death bed.

That's a very interesting view, Beth, and one that I think has lots to recommend it in the text. For instance, as you noted at the end of the poem he is rallying up the troops to set to go off on one final adventure, but according to the myths, none of his troops survived the voyage so he's basically talking to people who've already died.

Ulysses seems to be reflecting on his life with some sort of agnosticism, which totally contradicts the message that I was taught in 8th grade in my Abeka English lit books. (I was taught this was a faith affirming poem that reflect the ideal that we must always look to the goal -purity, righteousness- and strive ahead.)

I think that interpretation is a popular one, and certainly there are strong elements of that Victorian ethos of struggling to defeat adversity, keeping hope alive when all else seems to be lost, but I also agree with you that there is a great deal of desolation in the poem. The word choice that Shea pointed out is an example of that.

He seems to have faith neither in and gods nor in his own life nor in the preservation of his kindom, for that matter. He sounds like I feel when I am just on the point of giving up.

That's a really good point, Beth. I hadn't thought of that, but I can really see how he's actually letting go of life in favor of a dream. He even metions reaching the "Happy Isles" which was the Greek version of Valhalla -- the afterlife for warriors -- and seeing Achilles again.

He indicates a death bed type reflection in lines 33-43 when he indicates that his son will have his sceptre and isle and then he lists some qualities of his son and then indicates that he will be capable in line 43, "When I am gone. He works his work, I mine."

Yes, and I'd add that it's a bit dismissive of Telemachus' role and character. Kind of like he's saying this boring shit is fine for my dutiful son, but I'm built for other, more glorious things.

[Beth]

He indicates a death bed type reflection in lines 33-43 when he indicates that his son will have his sceptre and isle and then he lists some qualities of his son and then indicates that he will be capable in line 43, "When I am gone. He works his work, I mine."

Yes, and I'd add that it's a bit dismissive of Telemachus' role and character. Kind of like he's saying this boring shit is fine for my dutiful son, but I'm built for other, more glorious things.
Ah, yes he does. The old coot thinks he's the shit even in death! :P He almost paints his son out to be a bland, dutiful son. One that every father loves, but one that might cause a father to wish his son was a little more adventurous.

[livius drusus]

I also like to say that from what I have read about Tennyson, it appears that Ulysses was written a couple of months before Hallum's death.

Did you mean after Hallam's death? As far as I know, Ulysses was in part a reaction to that loss, and of particular note because it was Hallam who introduced him to Dante and the Ulysses we see in the poem speaks very much like the one we encounter in Canto XXVI (http://www.italianstudies.org/comedy/Inferno26.htm) in verse 90 to the end, particularly his exortation to his shipmates in verses 106-120.


"I and my shipmates by then were old and slow
When we came at long last to the close narrows
Where Hercules had set up his stone markers

"That men should not put out beyond that point.
On the starboard I now had passed Seville
And on the port I already passed Ceuta.

" 'Brothers,' I said, 'who through a hundred thousand
Dangers have reached the channel to the west,
To the short evening watch which your own senses

" 'Still must keep, do not choose to deny
The experience of what lies past the sun
And of the world yet uninhabited.

" 'Consider the seed of your generation:
You were not born to live like animals
But to pursue virtue and possess knowledge.'

This poem makes me feel that all in life is really in vain. It has the feel that life is vanity.

That's fascinating, Beth. Ulysses does seem to feel like his life was not in vain as long as it was heroic, but once the adventure is over it's not worth settling for.

Toward the end, there seems to be less unsurity and that he has more purpose. But this is the part that I think he is reflecting on a more romantic view of death.

Right, a death which matches his image of himself in life: a heroic life and heroic death.

[Beth]

Hi Liv, I have read things that suggest that manuscripts from Tennyson's works in 1833 suggest that Ulysses was written at least a couple of months before Hallam's death. I really am having trouble with finding sources online to support this though.

[livius drusus]

The footnote from the University of Toronto version of Ulysses (which is the version I've linked to in my OP) quotes Tennyson as saying "Ulysses was written soon after Arthur Hallam's death, and gave my feeling about the need of going forward, and braving the struggle of life perhaps more simply than anything in In Memoriam".

The only other online source I've found to be well-documented is the Victorian Web (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/tennyson/tennybio.html) which also mentions Ulysses having been written in reaction to Hallam's death. It makes sense that it would be, given it's coping with loss and mortality and the Dante reference.

I think you're right though that his comment about going forward and braving the struggles of life is an odd one given the melancholy nature of the poem. It has more of a going forward into death to see your old friends again feeling to me.

[godfry n. glad]

I don't think it necessarily bemoaning his life, but bemoaning that a warrior of such glory as he thinks his due, should linger and grow feeble.

The beginning sounds like the bemoaning of having not died the glorious death in battle and what glory he did garner was long ago, far away, and known by none in his immediate company as he grows old and infirm.

Then there is the whole, "Damn, I'm old...where did all those good times go...ah, well, there are still things to be done...I'll leave my son the tedious things to do and spend my days ramblin' in the search for more adventure."

"Penny! Fire up the RV, wouldya? Let's leave the farm in the hands of the boy and head off into the sunset for some adventure."

Basically, it's, "Age sucks, but I'm gonna keep on pluggin'," or "Old soldiers never die, they just ride off into the sunset."

godfry

[livius drusus]

Keep on pluggin' or die with memories of glory? I think Beth's deathbed idea makes a lot of sense, since his exortation to his friends isn't actually being made to anyone alive, so he's not really getting back on a boat and heading past the Pillars of Hercules (ie, through Gibraltar to the end of the world).

P.S. - Thanks for dragging that ass of yours over here. :)

[godfry n. glad]

Keep on pluggin' or die with memories of glory? I think Beth's deathbed idea makes a lot of sense, since his exortation to his friends isn't actually being made to anyone alive, so he's not really getting back on a boat and heading past the Pillars of Hercules (ie, through Gibraltar to the end of the world).

P.S. - Thanks for dragging that ass of yours over here. :)

Yeah, well, my ass has been dragged all over the place of late. Now that I've thrown in my :twocents:, I'll be notified of activity here.

Our narrator seems to regret that his glory seems to be largely unknown to those whom he rules. His glory is long in the past. So the thought is that he's imagining his death as a return to the voyaging with his mates?

godfry

[livius drusus]

Yeah, well, my ass has been dragged all over the place of late. Now that I've thrown in my :twocents:, I'll be notified of activity here.

:qex:
:burns:

Our narrator seems to regret that his glory seems to be largely unknown to those whom he rules. His glory is long in the past. So the thought is that he's imagining his death as a return to the voyaging with his mates?

Right, like some kind of fantasy vision, really, of his final voyage into the unknown, towards the Happy Isles to see his old friends again. That's an aspect of it, at any rate. There is no one right answer or anything, because in a poem like this there are many possible perspectives and interpretations.

The nice folks who wrote "Dead Poets Society", for instance, cut the melancholy chunks out and just read the inspiration struggle on and live life to the fullest bits, so I think there's little question that that sentiment is a big part of the poem.

[ceptimus]

I thought we weren't going to discuss the poem till February.

Ah well, never mind.

[livius drusus]

Oh yeah, we, um, started early on purpose to, um, make sure we covered everything. Yeah, that's the ticket. :shifty:

Okay I got antsy and just posted the intro. Sorry. :sorry:

[godfry n. glad]

Wait.

If Ulysses had been to the suburbs of Hades to visit his old pals and his mother, he'd know what it was he was headed for when he died. Ulysses, probably a rare mortal among mortals in that he knew his future...And it wasn't a long sail with old buddies...it was wandering as a shade.

So I guess I'm not convinced that he would be envisioning his afterlife at all. Like that, with all that glorious reliving of his past....

I could go for the whole reliving the past, but it needn't be in death. My father suffered from senile dementia. For several years after a stroke, he was ambulatory and gregarious, but he conversed with his buddies from the survey team on the Alcan Highway, during the 1940s. They were people he had not spoken with in over fifty years; he got to visit them all again before he died. He thought I was his younger brother come to visit when I went to see him in the home. He told me that people I knew were long dead had recently dropped by and he passed on their news to me. It was not Alzheimer's at all....merely the voyages of a mind lost in memories become vivid again due to the destruction of brain cells.

I guess it's time to read it again....

godfry

[livius drusus]

If Ulysses had been to the suburbs of Hades to visit his old pals and his mother, he'd know what it was he was headed for when he died. Ulysses, probably a rare mortal among mortals in that he knew his future...And it wasn't a long sail with old buddies...it was wandering as a shade.

That's a really good point, godfry. Particularly since it's a pretty degrading thing to be a shade in Hades (http://www.granneman.com/teaching/wuhell/grecoroman/homerxiodyssey/). They are vacant, senseless entities unless they drink from the pool of blood of the sacrifice, and Achilles even tells Ulysses when the latter calls him a prince among the dead "Say not a word .. in death's favour; I would rather be a paid servant in a poor man's house and be above ground than king of kings among the dead."

So I guess I'm not convinced that he would be envisioning his afterlife at all. Like that, with all that glorious reliving of his past....

It gets sticky though, because there are several conflicting mythological accounts of what happens to people after they die. Tennyson's Ulysses sees his final destination not as Hades, but the Happy Isles of Elysium, a sort of earthly paradise for great heros who by virtue of their greatness actually bypass death itself, and one eminently well-suited to the sailor because it's off in the great west-of-Gibraltar unknown.

Here's (http://www.bartleby.com/181/322.html) Bullfinch's description:

VIRGIL, we have seen, places his Elysium under the earth, and assigns it for a residence to the spirits of the blessed. But in Homer Elysium forms no part of the realms of the dead. He places it on the west of the earth, near Ocean, and describes it as a happy land, where there is neither snow, nor cold, nor rain, and always fanned by the delightful breezes of Zephyrus. Hither favored heroes pass without dying and live happy under the rule of Rhadamanthus. The Elysium of Hesiod and Pindar is in the Isles of the Blessed, or Fortunate Islands, in the Western Ocean.

So in that sense it's very much something to look forward to, and directly related to his glorious past which is what would have earned him this blissful eternity. Still, Achilles and Agammenon didn't make it there, so it's obviously not a sure thing. Maybe unlike Hades you actually have to set sail for it in order to reach it? That might make sense both in a literal and metaphoric reading of the poem.

I could go for the whole reliving the past, but it needn't be in death. My father suffered from senile dementia. For several years after a stroke, he was ambulatory and gregarious, but he conversed with his buddies from the survey team on the Alcan Highway, during the 1940s. They were people he had not spoken with in over fifty years; he got to visit them all again before he died. He thought I was his younger brother come to visit when I went to see him in the home. He told me that people I knew were long dead had recently dropped by and he passed on their news to me. It was not Alzheimer's at all....merely the voyages of a mind lost in memories become vivid again due to the destruction of brain cells.

That's hugely compelling, godfry, and I think adds a whole new dimension to what the narrator may be experiencing. Thank you.

[godfry n. glad]

"Rule of Rhadamanthus"

I like that. It sounds...benevolent.

Ah, yes, the Fields of Elysium. Yeah...If it's successful warrior hero to qualify, then why isn't at least Achilles there? Instead of as a shadow in Hades.

It fits well in terms of his being a mariner, though. He did contend with gods, too.

You know, every time you get into these theological details, things have to be jimmied and shimmed.

Also, if he heard his future in Hades, wouldn't he know what was to happen to him?
(pssst...and when you die, you won't come here, you'll go to Elysia...lucky dog)

[viscousmemories]

I tried to read this poem a couple times before reading everyone's comments here, and I simply couldn't do it. After reading everyone's comments, I was not only able to read it but I think I have a fairly good grasp of what it's about. So yay for the reading group. :yes!:

Now, as an example of why it's so hard for me to read poetry:

6 I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
7 Life to the lees:All times I have enjoy'd
8 Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those
9 That loved me, and alone, on shore, and when
10 Thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
11 Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;

The part in bold might as well be in Chinese for as much sense as it makes to me.

[LadyShea]

I felt the same way VM, which is why I wanted to take it in sections. I understood the first part see, and was hoping nobody would notice that I was to stupid to move on ;)

[livius drusus]

"Rule of Rhadamanthus"

I like that. It sounds...benevolent.

A new custom title perhaps? :yup:

Ah, yes, the Fields of Elysium. Yeah...If it's successful warrior hero to qualify, then why isn't at least Achilles there? Instead of as a shadow in Hades.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's because he was killed and therefore died. You can't get to the Happy Isles if they kill you first, kind of thind.

It fits well in terms of his being a mariner, though. He did contend with gods, too.

You know, every time you get into these theological details, things have to be jimmied and shimmed.

He he... Well, in this case I think Tennyson is entwining several mythological metaphors in order to explore human emotions and impulses.

Also, if he heard his future in Hades, wouldn't he know what was to happen to him?
(pssst...and when you die, you won't come here, you'll go to Elysia...lucky dog)

Here's Tiresias' prophecy:


As for yourself, death shall come to you from the sea, and your life shall ebb away very gently when you are full of years and peace of mind, and your people shall bless you. All that I have said will come true.'

Maybe Tennyson is taking this prophecy and reexamining it from Ulysses' perspective once the end is near. Perhaps what sounds like a great finale to anyone, including the hero mid-adventure, might not feel so great when it's actually upon him?

[Ymir's blood]

Particularly since it's a pretty degrading thing to be a shade in Hades. You think it's any better at IIDB? :(

They are vacant, senseless entities...
Hey!!! :whup:

[livius drusus]

I tried to read this poem a couple times before reading everyone's comments here, and I simply couldn't do it. After reading everyone's comments, I was not only able to read it but I think I have a fairly good grasp of what it's about. So yay for the reading group. :yes!:

That's awesome, vm. :yahoo:


Okay then, onto the perplexing verses. Neither you nor Shea or in any way shape or form stupid for not understanding them as written. There's odd syntax, a literary reference and a word cropped so it fits the rhythm.

First it might help to separate out the thoughts. A colon is almost like a period in terms of how you read a poem out loud -- it links separate but related thoughts -- so let's divide up the stanza as if the colons were periods.

I cannot rest from travel.
I will drink life to the lees.
All times I have enjoy'd greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those that loved me, and alone, on shore, and when thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades vext the dim sea.
I am become a name.

The first two sentences are pretty clear, I think. He wants to press on, keep going, to live life to the fullest. (BTW, "I will drink life to the less" is one of my favorite images in the poem. The lees are the sediments of wine that sink to the bottom of the bottle. Back in the days before filtration, you had to be careful not to shake it up before pouring or you'd get a mouthful of spooge. By drinking life to the lees, he's draining the bottle of every last bit of life it has to offer.)

Now, to translate the third sentence. The Hyades are a cluster of dim stars on the horizon which the Greeks associated with rain and Spring. The scudding drifts are how rain looks on the sea: it sort of skips (skuds) along the waves creating a mist which is really hard (vexing) to see through (thro').

So the full sentence is basically I've had good times and bad times, with loved ones and alone, on the shore and when on the sea the rain made the visibility really bad.

Finally, the last sentence wraps it up by saying that because of all this life he's lived, because of the richness of his experience, he is now widely known, eg, a name.

Does that make sense to y'all? I'm really tired and it's eminently possible that I'm just babbling.

[livius drusus]

Particularly since it's a pretty degrading thing to be a shade in Hades. You think it's any better at IIDB? :(

Well, at least the shades have cozy pits over there. :P

[godfry n. glad]

I tried to read this poem a couple times before reading everyone's comments here, and I simply couldn't do it. After reading everyone's comments, I was not only able to read it but I think I have a fairly good grasp of what it's about. So yay for the reading group. :yes!:

That's awesome, vm. :yahoo:

Indeed.

Okay then, onto the perplexing verses. Neither you nor Shea or in any way shape or form stupid for not understanding them as written. There's odd syntax, a literary reference and a word cropped so it fits the rhythm.

First it might help to separate out the thoughts. A colon is almost like a period in terms of how you read a poem out loud -- it links separate but related thoughts -- so let's divide up the stanza as if the colons were periods.

I cannot rest from travel.
I will drink life to the lees.
All times I have enjoy'd greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those that loved me, and alone, on shore, and when thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades vext the dim sea.
I am become a name.

The first two sentences are pretty clear, I think. He wants to press on, keep going, to live life to the fullest. (BTW, "I will drink life to the less" is one of my favorite images in the poem. The lees are the sediments of wine that sink to the bottom of the bottle. Back in the days before filtration, you had to be careful not to shake it up before pouring or you'd get a mouthful of spooge. By drinking life to the lees, he's draining the bottle of every last bit of life it has to offer.)

Now, to translate the third sentence. The Hyades are a cluster of dim stars on the horizon which the Greeks associated with rain and Spring. The scudding drifts are how rain looks on the sea: it sort of skips (skuds) along the waves creating a mist which is really hard (vexing) to see through (thro').

So the full sentence is basically I've had good times and bad times, with loved ones and alone, on the shore and when on the sea the rain made the visibility really bad.

Finally, the last sentence wraps it up by saying that because of all this life he's lived, because of the richness of his experience, he is now widely known, eg, a name.

Does that make sense to y'all? I'm really tired and it's eminently possible that I'm just babbling.

No...no...That's very helpful. I was trying to get the image of the rain vexing the sea, and I think you did it. I was thinking of the rain raising a foam on the water surface, which the winds then blew around. Your explanation is better, thank you.

And I _like_ the reference to the lees. For a sailor, it would have a double entendre. Lees: wine spooge - lee: quiet side, away from the wind.

godfry

[Crumb]

BTW, "I will drink life to the less" is one of my favorite images in the poem. The lees are the sediments of wine that sink to the bottom of the bottle. Back in the days before filtration, you had to be careful not to shake it up before pouring or you'd get a mouthful of spooge. By drinking life to the lees, he's draining the bottle of every last bit of life it has to offer.

Yes it is a very good visual. He says he will live life to the fullest, while also seeming to admit that the stuff at the end may not be as good as it used to be. I mean I can understand wanting it all, but who really wants to drink the spooge?

This is the first time I have read this poem and it seems to me to be the retired mans lament. He has nothing o do now that makes him feel useful anymore. He can only look back on past glories, or look forward to his death. And maybe he deludes himself into seeing death as a little more rosy than he knows it will be.

Just my :twocents:

[ceptimus]

Now that it's February :glare: I'll post my bit, and as people have tackled the start and end already, I though I'd begin at the centre.

This is my son, mine own Telemachus

Those of you who remember your Greek legends will know that Telemachus was the son of Odysseus and Penelope.

Odysseus was pretending to be insane - it was a form of draft-dodging to get out of the Trojan War. Palamedes placed the infant Telemachus in front of his father's plough, and Odysseus swerved the plough (American: plow) to avoid injuring his son thereby showing that he was sane. Odysseus had to go to war after all (where he fought bravely).

So I think the writer, as well as loving his son, is saying that he was driven to do things because of him, that he otherwise wouldn't have done (doubtless true for almost every father, of course).

To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle

Well the notes to the poem tell us that this is the Isle of Ithaca, of which Ulysses was king, but this also sounds to me like an allusion to Shakespeare's 'This sceptred Isle' ("King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1) where, of course, it refers to England (the poet, Alfred Lord Tennyson's own country):


This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
Hmmm. I seem to be writing a lot, and I've only done two lines of the poem yet. :blush:

[NietzscheCat]

Good choice, Livius. But I'm curious:

48 The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
49 Free hearts, free foreheads--you and I are old;

Who is "you," and what are "Free hearts, free foreheads?"
I'd think that the "you" would be his dead friend, but that's just a guess.
Ulysses is grateful for his heroic acts, but respects the "bland" men like his son.
The poem seems to be a combination of sorrow and glory. The sorrow comes from his death and the happiness is from his heroic acts before then. Ulysses strives for more glory despite the futility of near death.

[livius drusus]

Now that it's February :glare: I'll post my bit, and as people have tackled the start and end already, I though I'd begin at the centre.

Good idea, and thanks for stepping in despite our false start. :wink:

So I think the writer, as well as loving his son, is saying that he was driven to do things because of him, that he otherwise wouldn't have done (doubtless true for almost every father, of course).

Agreed. I'd add that it seems to me that the tone shifts here. It's almost like he's making an introductory speech now, speaking to an audience instead of just musing to himself. Hence the need to announce who Telemachus is.

I've also wondered if he wasn't being somewhat proprietary here: the repetition of my and mine, refering to Ithaca as his legacy in the next verse.

Well the notes to the poem tell us that this is the Isle of Ithaca, of which Ulysses was king, but this also sounds to me like an allusion to Shakespeare's 'This sceptred Isle' ("King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1) where, of course, it refers to England (the poet, Alfred Lord Tennyson's own country):


Oh that's a delicious allusion I hadn't thought of. It makes all kinds of sense, though: establishing a metaphoric relationship between the seafaring countries and therefore a sense of identification between seafarers.

Hmmm. I seem to be writing a lot, and I've only done two lines of the poem yet. :blush:

Aw, c'mon... If that was writing a lot, I'm in big trouble.

[livius drusus]

Good choice, Livius.

Thank you, NietzscheCat, and good to see you since it was all your idea. :)

Who is "you," and what are "Free hearts, free foreheads?" I'd think that the "you" would be his dead friend, but that's just a guess.

I think it's a plural you. If you go back to the beginning of that sentence -- the second part of verse 45 -- the subject is "My mariners". I think this stanza is phrased as a direct appeal to his shipmates and fellow heroes of old. They're the free hearts and foreheads, I believe: free in spirit, emotion, thought.

Ulysses is grateful for his heroic acts, but respects the "bland" men like his son. The poem seems to be a combination of sorrow and glory. The sorrow comes from his death and the happiness is from his heroic acts before then. Ulysses strives for more glory despite the futility of near death.

I wonder if he doesn't think there is more glory to be found in death than in a limited, unfulfilling life.

[Celsus]

Ulysses seems to be reflecting on his life with some sort of agnosticism, which totally contradicts the message that I was taught in 8th grade in my Abeka English lit books. (I was taught this was a faith affirming poem that reflect the ideal that we must always look to the goal -purity, righteousness- and strive ahead.)
If I may be disagreeable... ;) I think the theme of the poem is what your lit books says it is, if I can explain. The device being used is one that sets up the trials that he has faced as great and almost impossible to overcome. However, his very ability to state what he is saying speaks of his survival and coming through against the odds. The final lines are the crux for this device, as liv pointed out:
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
He hasn't given up, and that is what keeps him as a heroic figure. Whether it works or not is up to the reader though, since we see the same sort of device in Job, where he asks daring questions of God and his life, then finally prostrates himself in awe, forgetting that those questions he raised were never answered.
He seems to have faith neither in and gods nor in his own life nor in the preservation of his kindom, for that matter. He sounds like I feel when I am just on the point of giving up.
I disagree on the former part, since he states "Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods" ("strove" means "fought" as the myths clearly portray, though the movie does not :D).
Now, as an example of why it's so hard for me to read poetry: <snip>
I think that's just a problem with Victorian poetic language (or rather older forms of English), not with poetry per se. Of course there are pretentious gits who still try to mimic their aged heroes and write like this today, but for the most part they are few and far between. If you want simple words but dense meanings and layers, Robert Frost is a good one to go through, as is most of the New England poetry from that period. One example to try is Directive (http://hjem.get2net.dk/abra-ken/Frost1.htm), where the opening lines are nearly monosyllabic. But even then, what the hell is a "firkin"? (it's not Frost's fault for that particular word going out of fashion) Writing good poetry with simple words is, dare I say it a much greater skill than pulling out the ten dollar words.

Joel

[godfry n. glad]

But even then, what the hell is a "firkin"? (it's not Frost's fault for that particular word going out of fashion).

Joel


Hey! I know what a firkin is...Anybody who's familiar with craft brewing should know what a firkin is. It's a half-barrel. "Great firkin beer!"

godfry

[viscousmemories]

I think that's just a problem with Victorian poetic language (or rather older forms of English), not with poetry per se. Of course there are pretentious gits who still try to mimic their aged heroes and write like this today, but for the most part they are few and far between.
Ah, that makes sense. I haven't read much old stuff, truth be told. Primarily because I find it so painfully difficult to follow. I suppose if I'd gone to high school I would've been forced to cut my teeth on Shakespeare and such.

If you want simple words but dense meanings and layers, Robert Frost is a good one to go through, as is most of the New England poetry from that period. One example to try is Directive, where the opening lines are nearly monosyllabic. But even then, what the hell is a "firkin"? (it's not Frost's fault for that particular word going out of fashion) Writing good poetry with simple words is, dare I say it a much greater skill than pulling out the ten dollar words.
Thanks for the tip. :)

[Celsus]

Ah, that makes sense. I haven't read much old stuff, truth be told. Primarily because I find it so painfully difficult to follow. I suppose if I'd gone to high school I would've been forced to cut my teeth on Shakespeare and such.
Of course. The secret they never tell you is that most people who read anything Victorian or earlier (and even some later texts) is that they read the annotated versions. Anything much older than Shakespeare requires a full translation, and the good translations are works of art themselves (Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf is a great example). Luckily, I googled "firkin" just to be sure, since I knew it had something to do with alcohol, what with every fourth pub in England being called "Firkins".

Joel

[godfry n. glad]

Just keep the topic away from "merkins".

[maddog]

The part that I'm completely flummoxed by is not the poem itself, and what Ulysses is musing about, but its connection to Tennyson and his friend. Who's the narrator of this piece? Hallam? or Tennyson? It seems unlikely that it's Hallam, as Ulysses seems to be talking not about dying (which may be a little way off), but struggling on. It doesn't seem like a good fit for Tennyson, either, though, because Ulysses is talking about struggling on in the "good fight," having lived much, experienced much, done and achieved a hero's-worth of deeds, which both Tennyson and Hallam were too young to have done, and didn't have the laurels for anyway. So I'm failing to see at all how this is Tennyson's tribute to Hallam, whatever we may decide about the poem itself.
#262

[livius drusus]

Well, the narrator is Ulysses in the sense that it's his voice speaking. I think the tribute to Hallam is a thematic one, more than anything. This version of Ulysses, a hero who refuses to go gently into that good night and riles up his comrades for one last great hurrah, is closer Dante's depiction than Homer's, and it was Hallam who introduced Tennyson to The Divine Comedy.

Also, as a general theme, the idea of struggling on even though "much is lost" -- ie, close friends die -- might at least in part be Tennyson coping with his own loss.

I don't know of a huge helluvalot more, but I bet there's more along those lines to be found in Tennyson's correspondence. Does that mean it's Tennyson speaking in the poem? No, I don't think so, although some of his ideas and feelings may be coming out of Ulysses's mouth.

[koan]

Hi, I'm joining late.

It didn't take as long to read through the poem as it did to read all the replies posted before I join in. I wanted to read each one in detail and consider the different ideas and opinions.

I was similar in reaction to godfry as far as not reading as much darkness and depression into the poem.

It may be a rather simplistic comparison, but I thought of Ulysses as being rather like Bilbo stuck in the Shire after his reluctant adventures. Although every other Hobbit loved the Shire and wouldn't dream of ever leaving, Bilbo could never be satisfied again by what had been a peaceful existence prior to his awakening.

I made a few notes as I read it and found certain lines and phrases stood out for their lyrical beauty if not content. ie) I mete and dole/ unequal laws unto a savage race and this gray spirit yearning in desire/ to follow knowledge like a sinking star/ Beyond the utmost bound of human heart.

In the end, I found it to be an uplifting message.

One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, to yield

Ever striving, seeking to find and in his final wisdom, the sense there there is a force that is worthy of yielding to.

Maybe it's just what I wanted to see, but I felt like he encourages the effort of seeking for the sake of seeking implying there is something to find and something of great value.

But it could be just me.

[Barefoot Bree]

Sorry I'm late to the party, again!

Koan, I don't think your comparison to Bilbo is simplistic at all. - I think it's spot on.

I find the poem to be uplifting, as well, a kind of Call of the Wild Goose. Here's an old man, with many wild adventures behind him, who was forced to try to settle into old age and dull routine, and not finding either very comfortable. He wants to set out again on new adventures, and not just sit and wait for death to find him in his castle.

And why shouldn't he go? Here's his son, who is well qualified to take over for him - his very lack of the wanderlust makes him fit to stay behind and rule.

I think in the third part he's speaking to sailors everywhere, who share the spirit of his dead comrades, and not necessarily blending time and speaking ONLY to those comrades. Surely all who sail the seas must hear the call?