Thujone in Absinthe

[The_Cardinal]

Absinthe is now legal in the United States, or is it? To conform to the FDA test it must test "thujone free". One American manufacturer made an amazing discovery: there was actually very little thujone in old absinthe. He found an old bottle and tested it. Ah....that's alright then!

The USA is currently being flooded with the stuff amidst a media hype that resembles the Tulip Mania of early 17th Century Holland. The cash tills are ringing and the media dances to the tune of the hoax.

Rimbaud would turn in his grave.

**But the biggest controversy surrounding the liquor--once dubbed "one of the worst enemies of man"--is about not its resurgence but rather its authenticity. Enthusiasts claim the thujone-free brands, which contain less than 10 parts per million (p.p.m.) of the chemical, are made with the same relatively small amounts of thujone as the old brews. But scientists wrote in the British Medical Journal that absinthe bottled before 1900 packed up to 260 p.p.m. of thujone--which may not sound like much, but consider that only 15 parts per billion of lead in drinking water is enough to scare regulators. "They are playing pretend," study co-author Wilfred Arnold says of the liquor's new cheerleaders. "It is nothing like the old stuff."**

Thursday, Nov. 29, 2007 Time Magazine

[Sock Puppet]

Oh, if only someone would come along and post a link to a commercial site in response. But that would be too much to ask for, I'm sure. :wish:

[Watser?]

Good Heavens, Shirley you are not suggesting this is (:gasp:) :spammer:?

[lisarea]

Perhaps valued FF member gdAbsinthe (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/member.php?u=2122) will chime in with his and/or her thoughts on this issue.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

It's an Easter spamiracle!

[Sock Puppet]

Good Heavens, Shirley you are not suggesting this is (:gasp:) :spammer:?STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY! :whup:

[lisarea]

OK, you guys.

I went to the internet and found some pictures of underpants for this thread.

http://www.looptvandfilm.com/blog/giant_jesus_underpants.JPG

http://kalenhughes.com/db4/00326/kalenhughes.com/_uimages/Underpants.jpg

http://jeffwerner.ca/images/journal/underpants.jpg

[Qingdai]

Good Heavens, Shirley you are not suggesting this is (:gasp:) :spammer:?STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY! :whup:
Roger!

[Ari]

Wow marketing shill bots hitting forums who are too stupid to post a link to the site that's paying them. It's sad some companies spend their money on false claims instead of just making a better product.

For the few people that care.

"To conform to the FDA test it must test "thujone free"
Nope. To conform to the FDA guidelines an absinthe must contain 10ppm or less (almost just like in europe). This falls into what they consider "thujone free"

"The USA is currently being flooded with the stuff"
Bull. Of the three or so legal brands all are produced in tiny quantities and most stores barely get any to sell because of this.

""They are playing pretend," study co-author Wilfred Arnold "
Frankly Arnold is an idiot when it comes to absinthe. He has never tested a single bottle of absinthe and will cut off a conversation if you ask him why.

I would guess it's because the books and talks he gives about Van Gogh (his actual "expertise") seem to rely on his pretend thujone levels being accurate.

Absinthe makes for an interesting history of how crap science, prohibitionist claims and greed can convince people who should know better.

[Sock Puppet]

Screw absinthe, bring back Laudanum. Ah gits mah haidaches.

[The_Cardinal]

"They are playing pretend," study co-author Wilfred Arnold


Frankly Arnold is an idiot when it comes to absinthe. He has never tested a single bottle of absinthe and will cut off a conversation if you ask him why.

I would guess it's because the books and talks he gives about Van Gogh (his actual "expertise") seem to rely on his pretend thujone levels being accurate.

Absinthe makes for an interesting history of how crap science, prohibitionist claims and greed can convince people who should know better.

Professor Arnold is an idiot? And you are, Eric? What are you? You know more about the subject than a Professor of Biochemistry because you hang around with Ted Breaux? Is he a scientist like Professor Arnold? What are his qualifications then? The pasta cook from Seattle is a scientist too, is he?

Did you ever see a photograph of a bottle of Jade made in Thailand with 80mg thujone in it?

I forwarded your remarks about him being an "idiot" to Arnold. Academic discourtesy of this kind (and your strangely worded suggestions about his motives) are deeply foolish. You are a student with a highly overated opinion of yourself and you should desist from insulting academics who are your intellectual and moral superiors.

[Ari]

Yep figured it was one of you.
Oh no, you told Arnold on me. Um he has already stopped talking to me because I asked too many questions (what kind of scientist gets pissed because I wanted evidence of his claims).

Titles mean nothing.
If you can show me where Arnold tested a single bottle of real absinthe using a GCMS and where he submitted these tests to peer review, I will retract. Otherwise he is ignorant on the subject and he knows it.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Am I the only one who saw this?

i sory i onle pertind 2 telz on u cuz intarw3bz thretz r srz bzniz lol
:tard:

[BDS]

"Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder." -- Oscar Wilde

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Spambot nerd-fights make the day go faster. :yup:

[ChuckF]

What the fuck is going on?

[Ari]

Spambot nerd-fights make the day go faster. :yup:
Totally.

Some people are justed ticked that we can buy a liquor from a local store instead of ordering their over priced product from one of their lame ads in high times.

[The_Cardinal]

What about his motives? They are not born of academic honesty then? Clarify.

Toxin in absinthe makes neurons run wild

Corinna Wu

In the late 20th century, espressos and caffe lattes became available on every urban street corner. In late 19th-century Paris, absinthe was the favored drink of artists and writers. Some say addiction to the emerald-green liqueur drove Vincent Van Gogh to take his own life. Edgar Degas, Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, and Pablo Picasso all painted absinthe drinkers, capturing both the drink's popularity and its dark side.

Although widely banned, absinthe is still available in some countries. Its drinkers usually dilute the green liqueur with water, turning it milky white.

Doctors at the time recognized that absinthe can cause convulsions, hallucinations, and psychotic behavior. Now, researchers at the University of California, Berkeley and Northwestern University Medical School in Chicago have learned how the drink's toxic component wreaks its neurological effects.

They found that the toxin, alpha-thujone, blocks brain receptors for gamma-aminobutyric acid, or GABA. Without access to GABA, a natural inhibitor of nerve impulses, neurons fire too easily and their signaling goes out of control.

"This paper is very important because it gives the biochemical mechanism for toxicity," says biochemist Wilfred Niels Arnold of the University of Kansas Medical Center in Kansas City.

Berkeley researchers Karin M. Höld, Nilantha S. Sirisoma, and John E. Casida collaborated on the study with Tomoko Ikeda and Toshio Narahashi of Northwestern. The group's results, reported this week at the American Chemical Society meeting in San Francisco, will appear in the April 11 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Scientists had documented thujone's effects by 1916, but "nobody had ever figured out exactly where the toxin was working," says Höld. She and her colleagues conducted tests on fruit flies, mice, and rat neurons to connect alpha-thujone to GABA receptors. They also examined how animals' liver enzymes break down the compound.

Despite doctors' warnings about the dangers of absinthe, the beverage became very popular, especially in France. Between 1905 and 1913, Belgium, Switzerland, the United States, and Italy cracked down, banning the liqueur. France followed in 1915.

In some countries, notably the Czech Republic, absinthe is still available, albeit in a less potent form. Old absinthe contained about 260 parts per million of alpha-thujone, says Arnold. "Present-day absinthe generally has less than 10 parts per million," he says, which is below the maximum concentration permitted by European beverage guidelines. In today's absinthe, "the most toxic compound is the alcohol," quips Arnold.

Alpha-thujone comes from the herb wormwood, which flavors absinthe. Although few people now drink the liqueur, "a lot of herbal preparations are available on-line, and one is wormwood oil," says Höld. People have used this oil since antiquity to treat digestive disorders. The alpha-thujone concentration in the oil is much higher than in absinthe and is a greater potential health concern, says Höld.

Research into absinthe waned after its prohibition, Arnold notes. However, these new results reveal potential uses for alpha-thujone. "A lot of insecticides work on GABA receptors," notes Höld.

Another group at Berkeley is planning to study long-term effects of the compound in rodents, she adds. That work may provide important information for modern-day absinthe drinkers who ingest low toxin doses over a lifetime.

References:

Höld, K.M., et al. 2000. a-Thujone and absinthe: Structural and metabolic aspects of neurotoxic action. American Chemical Society National Spring Meeting. March 26-30. San Francisco.

Höld, K.M., N.S. Sirisoma . . . and J.E. Casida. 2000. a-Thujone (the active component of absinthe): y-Aminobutyric acid type A receptor modulation and metabolic detoxification. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 97(April 11):3826-3831. Abstract available at http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/8/3826.

Further Readings:

Arnold, W.N. 1989. Absinthe. Scientific American 260(June):112-117.

Bower, B. 1999. Gene tinkering hikes fear and anxiety in mice. Science News 156(Sept. 4):149. Available at http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc99/9_4_99/fob4.htm.

______. 1995. Schizophrenia: Fetal roots for GABA loss. Science News 147(April 22):247.

Carpenter, S. 1999. Fever-induced seizures cause brain changes. Science News 156(Aug. 7):86.

Weisbord, S.D., et al. 1997. Poison on line—acute renal failure caused by oil of wormwood purchased through the Internet. New England Journal of Medicine 337(Sept. 18):825-827.

Sources:

Wilfred Niels Arnold
Department of Biochemistry
University of Kansas Medical Center
Kansas City, KS 66160-7421

Karin M. Höld
Environmental Chemistry and Toxicology Laboratory
Department of Environmental Science, Policy, and Management
University of California, Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-3112


Before you say this out of date and "Professor" Ted Breaux has proved otherwise from a bottle he found in a yard sale. Casida was interviewed recently and confirmed the same.

"It depends strictly on the concentration of active ingredients," said Casida in a phone interview.

Even Gwydion Stone buys it soley for the effects:


"I could give a shit less about thujone, but if I can expect no "absinthe effect"( I refuse to consider it "secondary"), then I'll be god-damned if I am going to spend $100 for a bottle of booze unless it's damned fine single malt scotch. When I want an anise flavoured liquer, I'll buy a pastis for $30. I don't care if the effect comes from thujones or Tom Jones, or a combination of other herbs, but that's why I pay exorbitant shipping rates"

Hiram (aka Gwydion Stone)
Feb 12 2004 FeeVerte.Net

[lisarea]

Am I the only one who saw this?

i sory i onle pertind 2 telz on u cuz intarw3bz thretz r srz bzniz lol
:tard:

Sssh. No. We all saw it. We're just hiding because we don't want to get in trouble like Ari did.

[Ari]

Cardinal: That you think anyone here is listening is funny. That your marketing has fallen to spamming forums is also funny.

Again, If you can show me where Arnold tested a single bottle of real absinthe using a GCMS and where he submitted these tests to peer review, I will retract. I bet you can't.
I wonder how many times you can copy and paste without citing a source before you run foul of one of the few rules here.

[Ari]

Sssh. No. We all saw it. We're just hiding because we don't want to get in trouble like Ari did.

I was told hardz. He toldz me to buyz his book, Amazon offers a good peer review system, right?

[ChuckF]

I wasn't listening until I saw that GWYDION STONE HIMSELF buys absinthe solely for the effects.

I suspect Gwydion Stone to be my biological uncle. I would appreciate any help in tracking him down. Also, he owes me $50.

[Ari]

Only the best for your Stone's right?

[Shelli]

I lurv spam threads after they've had time to mature. :lol:

:shakespam:

[The_Cardinal]

I am not spamming anyone. I thought this was a forum about food and drink.

Sorry, I thought this was also a place for discussion. My mistake. I don't know what rules Ari is threatening me with...but I'll leave you in peace to post pictures of underwear and call university academics "idiots" and infer motive on others without basis in fact.

Thanks for your time.

[Shelli]

No, really, thank you. :thankee:

[Naruto]

And so the predictable pattern emerges again:

1) Idiot joins FF
2) Idiot starts thread about shit no one cares about, that also happens to be BS
3) FFers call idiot an idiot
4) Idiot gets angry that a "freethought forum" isn't open-minded enough to accept his idiocy
5) [insert 4chan profit meme here]

[Crumb]

you should desist from insulting academics who are your intellectual and moral superiors.
:rofl:

[lisarea]

YouTube - The Love Boat End Credits 1982

[ChuckF]

:foocl:

[The_Cardinal]

And so the predictable pattern emerges again:

1) Idiot joins FF
2) Idiot starts thread about shit no one cares about, that also happens to be BS
3) FFers call idiot an idiot
4) Idiot gets angry that a "freethought forum" isn't open-minded enough to accept his idiocy
5) [insert 4chan profit meme here]

Why the insults exacty? :(

[ChuckF]

I apologize for Naruto. He's gotten mean since he started hitting the absinthe.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

o hai guyz by mai produktz kthxbai
:jesus:

[The_Cardinal]

Goodbye and thanks for the insults and accussations

[Farren]

Absinthe n' spam. Hmmm.....

[beyelzu]

"They are playing pretend," study co-author Wilfred Arnold


Frankly Arnold is an idiot when it comes to absinthe. He has never tested a single bottle of absinthe and will cut off a conversation if you ask him why.

I would guess it's because the books and talks he gives about Van Gogh (his actual "expertise") seem to rely on his pretend thujone levels being accurate.

Absinthe makes for an interesting history of how crap science, prohibitionist claims and greed can convince people who should know better.

Professor Arnold is an idiot? And you are, Eric? What are you? You know more about the subject than a Professor of Biochemistry because you hang around with Ted Breaux? Is he a scientist like Professor Arnold? What are his qualifications then? The pasta cook from Seattle is a scientist too, is he?

Did you ever see a photograph of a bottle of Jade made in Thailand with 80mg thujone in it?

I forwarded your remarks about him being an "idiot" to Arnold. Academic discourtesy of this kind (and your strangely worded suggestions about his motives) are deeply foolish. You are a student with a highly overated opinion of yourself and you should desist from insulting academics who are your intellectual and moral superiors.


intellectual and moral superior?

you dont think you might be overstating there a big, i mean everyone knows ari is pretty much without morals so that one is a given but he can read godddammniittt

[beyelzu]

Goodbye and thanks for the insults and accussations

i will miss you my friend.




shane, please come back*






*see its funny cuz you have been mortally wounded

[Uthgar the Brazen]

You're welcome! :goodbye:

[livius drusus]

Well, that was unexpectedly funny. Ari, looks like you have quite the dark secret life.

The_Cardinal, I don't think you can fault people for concluding your OP was commercially-driven. I considered the question myself this morning, and I thought you might be part of a tag-team and that your shill would soon follow with the link.

Clearly you are not so blunt an instrument. I'm sorry you (unexpectedly perhaps?) found yourself at the mercy of spam humor.

As for what's going on with Ari, I have no idea what y'all's history is but I cannot deny I've found the exchange highly entertaining. I would definitely subscribe to the Ari - The_Cardinal serial. :thumbup:

[Naruto]

Mad props to Ari for this thread.

[Sock Puppet]

:shrug: It looked like a cut-n-paste, and it quacked like a cut-n-paste.

[The Lone Ranger]

But scientists wrote in the British Medical Journal that absinthe bottled before 1900 packed up to 260 p.p.m. of thujone--which may not sound like much, but consider that only 15 parts per billion of lead in drinking water is enough to scare regulators.
With good reason. Lead is a highly toxic substance that can cause considerable damage to the nervous system in even tiny quantities. What's worse is that it builds up in tissues with repeated exposure -- that's one of the reasons it's so dangerous.

Just as an aside, it's by no means impossible for a "university academic" to be dishonest and/or an idiot. I'm not making any accusations; I'm merely pointing that out.



"Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder." -- Oscar Wilde
If I recall correctly, wasn't it: "Absinthe makes the tart grow fonder"?



Cheers,

Michael

[BDS]

"Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder." -- Oscar Wilde
If I recall correctly, wasn't it: "Absinthe makes the tart grow fonder"?



Cheers,

Michael

I googled it: both are famous quotations, and neither was said (on the basis of Google) by Oscar Wilde (although, doubtless, anything funny is often attributed to him). Christopher Dowson said "tart".

[Dingfod]

I am not spamming anyone. I thought this was a forum about food and drink.

Sorry, I thought this was also a place for discussion. My mistake. I don't know what rules Ari is threatening me with...but I'll leave you in peace to post pictures of underwear and call university academics "idiots" and infer motive on others without basis in fact.

Thanks for your time.You ever been to Oklahoma?

[The_Cardinal]

Christopher Dowson? More commonly known as Ernest Dowson. When copy and pasting names from Google try to get the whole line.

They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
Out of a misty dream
Our path emerges for a while, then closes
Within a dream.

:yawn:

[BDS]

If I'd copied and pasted, I would have gotten it right.

[Ari]

You came back to critique other people copy and paste techniques?

[Uthgar the Brazen]

You came back to critique other people copy and paste techniques?

Where else will students learn if not at the feet of the master?

[Farren]

One thing they will learn is that the Master's feet always smell bad.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

One thing they will learn is that the Master's feet always smell bad.

Another thing they will learn, if they are wise students, is to not ever mention this! :thwap:

[The_Cardinal]

http://www.coudal.com/i/monty_foot.jpg

[ChuckF]

:wb:

[Crumb]

We have a smiley for that, Cardinal. :foot: