Pregnant Dude.

[Miss Shelby]

San Francisco Bay Guardian (http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=6105&volume_id=317&issue_id=373&volume_num=42&issue_num=28)

that's some crazy shit right there.

[Brimshack]

San Francisco Bay Guardian (http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=6105&volume_id=317&issue_id=373&volume_num=42&issue_num=28)

that's some crazy shit right there.

Nah!

A Virgin birth is some crazy shit (and a little kinky besides). Ressurection is deeply strange, and that stuff about eating the flesh and blood of a man-god every Sunady is some really, REALLY, crazy shit.

This is just a person doing what it takes to have a baby. A bit unusual circumstances, sure, but there is nothing particularly gobsmacking about a person with a vagina and ovaries using them to produce a baby. Taken at face value, it is far more normal than the things routinely asserted and approved by people all accross the world. ...particularly by those who seem most shocked at the whole matter.

Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder how anyone could find something like this the least bit odd. To hear people talk, our world is saturated with facts that genuinely queer the known order of things. But when somebody manages to push the envelope on what is actually possible IN REAL LIFE, then sudddenly THAT gets a lot of oohs and ahs.

To say nothing about the many freakish techniques used daily to keep people alive and walking, or at least wheeling about the world around us. ...things that some people (Christian Scientists, Jehovah's witnesses, traditionalist of many a tribal people all over the world) would consider genuinely freakish and even downright wrong. A heart transplant? That's some seriously fucked up shit!

But maybe that's an interesting commentary on the nature of deviance in itself. While people like this stick out like a sore thumb, it is always against a background of cultural oddities no more nor less strange in themselves. The difference may seem natural, but it's always contrived as hell.

[Freddy]

This person was born with female reproductive organs but felt like a male trapped inside a female body. Fine, the person wants to be a male. However, the person keeps the female reproductive organs just in case. This is where it goes wrong for me. If you are claiming to be a man then why keep the female reproductive organs? Then the person gets all this publicity for becoming pregnant. This person was born with all the equipment to become pregnant. I believe if you are going to claim to be a male then you have to give up the female anatomy. This person had female breasts removed. No other person ever born a male, with only male reproductive organs, has been able to bare a child. I will not recognize this person as a male until the female reproductive organs are gone. A man with a vagina and uterus! Give me a freakin' break!

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I believe if you are going to claim to be a male then you have to give up the female anatomy.

Sadly, nobody fuckin' asked you, eh?

[Brimshack]

"Why keep"

Why ask rhetorical questions. He has already explained his reasons. he wanted to be able to have a baby. He wanted to be able to have a baby, and he wanted to have the identity of a male. By puruing this course of action, he was able to accomplish both of those goals.

I'd say this is a fantastic story of a person with clear vision and good fortitude.

Freddy, unless I have misread your posts in the past you support indigenous rights. Does this extend to their customs? ...to the practices of Two Spirit People?

Are Native American men able to claim the status of a woman while having a penis and this person unable to do so because he has a vagina? Or do you reject both claims?

The world and human history is full of people who have claimed to be one gender while possessing the gentials of another. And many MANY have found acceptance for just such claims.

[Joshua Adams]

I will not recognize this person as a male until the female reproductive organs are gone.:ohnoes:

[yguy]

I'd say this is a fantastic story of a person with clear vision and good fortitude.In all seriousness, you belong in a rubber room.

[Brimshack]

I'd say this is a fantastic story of a person with clear vision and good fortitude.In all seriousness, you belong in a rubber room.

In all seriousness, YGuy, I thank my good fortune to live in a society where fuckers like you do not wield the authority to make that decision.

[Crumb]

I believe if you are going to claim to be a male then you have to give up the female anatomy.

Sadly, nobody fuckin' asked you, eh?
Well of course this individual is not physically male. Otherwise, there is no way he could become pregnant. However he wishes to socially identify as a male, which is fine. But it really removes the punch from the headline, after all this really isn't a man that is pregnant in any way that makes interesting to be pregnant.

So really, it's a non-story. :shrug:

[Shelli]

:yeahthat:

[Freddy]

I believe if you are going to claim to be a male then you have to give up the female anatomy.

Sadly, nobody fuckin' asked you, eh?
So now I am not entitled to have an opinion on this subject?

[viscousmemories]

Not if you haven't received an opinion authorization PM from one of the staff.

Have you filed a form 10.78-R?

[Clutch Munny]

You mean 107.8-R, don't you?

10.78-R is Permission To Scratch Gonads While Posting. I guess your macro just filled it in automatically.

[Freddy]

"Why keep"

Why ask rhetorical questions. He has already explained his reasons. he wanted to be able to have a baby. He wanted to be able to have a baby, and he wanted to have the identity of a male. By puruing this course of action, he was able to accomplish both of those goals.

I'd say this is a fantastic story of a person with clear vision and good fortitude.

Freddy, unless I have misread your posts in the past you support indigenous rights. Does this extend to their customs? ...to the practices of Two Spirit People?

Are Native American men able to claim the status of a woman while having a penis and this person unable to do so because he has a vagina? Or do you reject both claims?

The world and human history is full of people who have claimed to be one gender while possessing the gentials of another. And many MANY have found acceptance for just such claims.

I think the Native Americans claimed a dual gender and not the single male gender as in this case. If this person was to claim a dual gender I would understand that. The simple biological fact is that human males cannot become pregnant.

[Petra]

Not if you haven't received an opinion authorization PM from one of the staff.

Have you filed a form 10.78-R?

This happened to me once. The error was that the FF official remembered to give me my receipt for the opinion opined, but misremembered about giving himself a receipt for giving me my receipt. Total balls up, it was.

[Petra]

Back on topic, though, I also think this is a non-story. :shrug:

[Brimshack]

"Why keep"

Why ask rhetorical questions. He has already explained his reasons. he wanted to be able to have a baby. He wanted to be able to have a baby, and he wanted to have the identity of a male. By puruing this course of action, he was able to accomplish both of those goals.

I'd say this is a fantastic story of a person with clear vision and good fortitude.

Freddy, unless I have misread your posts in the past you support indigenous rights. Does this extend to their customs? ...to the practices of Two Spirit People?

Are Native American men able to claim the status of a woman while having a penis and this person unable to do so because he has a vagina? Or do you reject both claims?

The world and human history is full of people who have claimed to be one gender while possessing the gentials of another. And many MANY have found acceptance for just such claims.

I think the Native Americans claimed a dual gender and not the single male gender as in this case. If this person was to claim a dual gender I would understand that. The simple biological fact is that human males cannot become pregnant.

"Dual Gender" versus "Single Male Gender" had nothing to do with it. These are anachronistic terms that you have introduced into the matter, but they have nothing to do with the customs in question. Yes, people knew what was up, and yes they accepted the role change anyway. That is no more nor less than this man is asking of others now.

If it were a biological fact that was at issue here, then there would be no dispute, because the pregnancy would not be possible. What we are talking about is a social fact, one in which someone with genitalia belonging to one gender is asking to be accepted as a member of the opposite sex.

[A Dead Relative]

I use to know someone who considered herself a man, but still had all the female parts. She had a name change, was getting testosterone shots, and planned on getting the male parts, eventually. Supposedly, she thinks she was born with both sex organs, but her mom decided to keep the female parts, and she was suppose to be a male. She doesn't even know, for sure. :kookoo:

[FreeMind]

For me it's just a person born as a female who's getting a child now. Not so interesting to me :)

[TomJoe]

This is just a person doing what it takes to have a baby. A bit unusual circumstances, sure, but there is nothing particularly gobsmacking about a person with a vagina and ovaries using them to produce a baby.

"A bit unusual ..." eh?

And I'd say that's a bit of an understatement.

Yes, this person has a vagina and ovaries, but claims to be, emotionally and mentally, a man. Going so far as to alter his/her physical characteristics to demonstrate the fact. So, yes ... the whole situation can certainly seem a "bit odd".

[Miss Shelby]

she was a pretty chick w/ some heavy eyebrows and she thought she was a man. but she wanted to keep her uterus to have a baby. So she didn't really want to be a man. She wanted to be a man with a uterus to have a baby. That's called being a woman.

[Naruto]

she was a pretty chick w/ some heavy eyebrows and she thought she was a man. but she wanted to keep her uterus to have a baby. So she didn't really want to be a man. She wanted to be a man with a uterus to have a baby. That's called being a woman.

He wanted to live and look like a man, and have the added advantage of being able to have children. Why get into semantics of how manly he is? I think it's great for the couple, but it's a non-story.

[1Samuel8]

Why get into semantics of how manly he is? The article made a point of it.
The article went into how manly he happens to be possibly in anticipation of it being summarily dismissed as a non-story.

In other words: he's not a freak from a freaky city like San Francisco. He is, as they say in the mainstream media, relatable.

And he's playing his poster boy role perfectly. On Oprah, you could tell he was a friendly, shy person (albeit with a black belt in karate). Visibly nervous, obviously proud as hell of his wife and soon-to-be-born daughter, he didn't try to make a political statement or lecture anybody about gender binaries being stupid. He had a hard time explaining why he had become a man, too. Often when Oprah asked pointed questions he would shrug and say, "It's hard to explain." Exactly like a dude to be sort of inarticulate about his own dudeness. So another part of his appeal to the mainstream media is that he fits gender stereotypes.



------------


This is definately a non-story to me. I do not think of this person as a freak because I have seen a lot more freakier things on the internet. However, I do put in question this person being identified as male. [Can they show us some pictures? Which way is the child going to go? out the pee-hole???] I was hoping the science behind this story would be a little bit more interesting. It clearly is not.

I remember reading a long time ago about experimental male pregnancies involving a placenta attaching to the internal abdominal wall analogous to a woman's ectopic pregnancy. The male would carry the child to term and have a "ceasarian" section to deliver. That would be a more interesting story than a uterine pregnancy.

[Brimshack]

This is just a person doing what it takes to have a baby. A bit unusual circumstances, sure, but there is nothing particularly gobsmacking about a person with a vagina and ovaries using them to produce a baby.

"A bit unusual ..." eh?

And I'd say that's a bit of an understatement.

Yes, this person has a vagina and ovaries, but claims to be, emotionally and mentally, a man. Going so far as to alter his/her physical characteristics to demonstrate the fact. So, yes ... the whole situation can certainly seem a "bit odd".

And yet his actions remain;

1) Considerably less strange than actions of those whom you approve and even venerate.

2) Significantly less drastic than the many medical means used to enhance people's life in other contexts.

His circumstances simply do not change this.

[Brimshack]

she was a pretty chick w/ some heavy eyebrows and she thought she was a man. but she wanted to keep her uterus to have a baby. So she didn't really want to be a man. She wanted to be a man with a uterus to have a baby. That's called being a woman.

And Jesus wants to be called a god, but he still has the body of a mortal. That's called being mortal.

[Miss Shelby]

This person doesn’t want to be a man. This person wants to be a he/she. Why not just call it what it is?

[Miss Shelby]

she was a pretty chick w/ some heavy eyebrows and she thought she was a man. but she wanted to keep her uterus to have a baby. So she didn't really want to be a man. She wanted to be a man with a uterus to have a baby. That's called being a woman.

And Jesus wants to be called a god, but he still has the body of a mortal. That's called being mortal.
lol, on the one hand we got some apples. And then on the other we got some grapefruits.

[TomJoe]

And yet his actions remain;

1) Considerably less strange than actions of those whom you approve and even venerate.

2) Significantly less drastic than the many medical means used to enhance people's life in other contexts.

His circumstances simply do not change this.
None of which changes the fact of you saying : Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder how anyone could find something like this the least bit odd.

Seems pretty cut and dry how people can find this at least a bit odd. A man is giving birth to a baby. That's a bit odd. It doesn't matter what else you want to claim is odd, or fantastical. The fact remains, a man giving birth to a baby, is a bit odd. Capiche?

[Brimshack]

Having thus declared all comparisons irrelevant, you proceed to draw a conclusion that is inherently comparative.

Congratulations.

[Brimshack]

she was a pretty chick w/ some heavy eyebrows and she thought she was a man. but she wanted to keep her uterus to have a baby. So she didn't really want to be a man. She wanted to be a man with a uterus to have a baby. That's called being a woman.

And Jesus wants to be called a god, but he still has the body of a mortal. That's called being mortal.
lol, on the one hand we got some apples. And then on the other we got some grapefruits.

It's okay Miss Shelby. You don't need to respond to the argument at hand.

[Brimshack]

This person doesn’t want to be a man. This person wants to be a he/she. Why not just call it what it is?

Are his genitals that important to you? The individual wishes to be treated as a man. Do you need genital verification from others? Or do you really think you've never met a genuine he/she whom you were rold was a man or a woman? But this person you balk at. This person you have an opnion about. And this person you insist on treating as a freak.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

And this person you insist on treating as a freak.

It's like the times when other people playing online games call me a nerd. :giggle:

[Miss Shelby]

This person doesn’t want to be a man. This person wants to be a he/she. Why not just call it what it is?

Are his genitals that important to you? The individual wishes to be treated as a man. Do you need genital verification from others? Or do you really think you've never met a genuine he/she whom you were rold was a man or a woman? But this person you balk at. This person you have an opnion about. And this person you insist on treating as a freak.
yes obviously this person's genatalia is of interest to me or I wouldn't have started the thread. I think it's whacked. Just as you think some dude walking round 2,000 years ago claiming to be God is whacked. You're entitled to that opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

BTW, this person who I am treating like a freak is the one wanting her face plastered all over People magazine.

[Brimshack]

...or as I like to ask; how's that fantasy football league going?

[Brimshack]

This person doesn’t want to be a man. This person wants to be a he/she. Why not just call it what it is?

Are his genitals that important to you? The individual wishes to be treated as a man. Do you need genital verification from others? Or do you really think you've never met a genuine he/she whom you were rold was a man or a woman? But this person you balk at. This person you have an opnion about. And this person you insist on treating as a freak.
yes obviously this person's genatalia is of interest to me or I wouldn't have started the thread. I think it's whacked. Just as you think some dude walking round 2,000 years ago claiming to be God is whacked. You're entitled to that opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

No. What I think is whacked is someone steeped in stories far more strange than this would make a point to draw the line here. Some freaks get worshipped; others get mocked. The line that YOU are drawing here is arbitrary and capricious. Don't pretend it has anything to do with me.

[Miss Shelby]

No. What I think is whacked is someone steeped in stories far more strange than this would make a point to draw the line here. Some freaks get worshipped; others get mocked. The line that YOU are drawing here is arbitrary and capricious. Don't pretend it has anything to do with me.

you have a problem with me for having a problem with uterus man who's sucking attention from the media because I adhere to a religion that you find whacked.

Yeah, right that has nothing to do with you.

how come no one called me a hypocrite when I posted the article about the freak stuck to the toilet?

[Adam]

I think "non-story" might be stretching it a bit, as it is out of the ordinary for someone who self-identifies as a man to possess the requisite parts to bear a child. On the other hand, I don't see where this is such an astounding deviation form the norm that we ought to be surprised or shocked about it. I'm willing to bet that, even discounting non-Western cultures (i.e. Brimshack's example), this has happened before...the only difference is that that the people involved never appeared on the evil that is Oprah.

[1Samuel8]

The individual wishes to be treated as a man. What does being "treated as a man" entail?

Enter Ermin....

[Qingdai]

Oh lard no.
:pisscon:

[Adam]

What does being "treated as a man" entail?

:pee::heybabeh:

EtA: Note that I had to combine smilies clumsily to overcome the appalling lack of a :peesex: smiley.

[TomJoe]

Having thus declared all comparisons irrelevant, you proceed to draw a conclusion that is inherently comparative.

Congratulations.
Hmm, how do I make this easier for you.

Person A: Wow, look at that two-headed kitten.

:2faces:

Brimshack: Yah, and?

Person A: Well, it's a little bit odd.

Brimshack: No it's not! I'll tell you what's odd. A fucking lung transplant, that's odd!

Person A: :wtf:

So, your "odd" is different from my "odd". Now explain to me why I should use your supposedly quantitative "odd scale" as opposed to just using odd as something that's "out of the ordinary"? Because last I checked, a man having a baby was out of the ordinary.

I think "non-story" might be stretching it a bit, as it is out of the ordinary for someone who self-identifies as a man to possess the requisite parts to bear a child. On the other hand, I don't see where this is such an astounding deviation form the norm that we ought to be surprised or shocked about it. I'm definitely not shocked about the situation.

[1Samuel8]

And last I checked, a man having a baby was out of the ordinary. That depends on how you look at it.
In some religions, the marriage of a man and a woman creates one body. You must have heard that one before, no?

[TomJoe]

And last I checked, a man having a baby was out of the ordinary. That depends on how you look at it.
In some religions, the marriage of a man and a woman creates one body. You must have heard that one before, no?You know what I mean.

[ChuckF]

What does being "treated as a man" entail?

:pee::heybabeh:

EtA: Note that I had to combine smilies clumsily to overcome the appalling lack of a :peesex: smiley.

:leak:
:monkeybuttsex:

[Brimshack]

No. What I think is whacked is someone steeped in stories far more strange than this would make a point to draw the line here. Some freaks get worshipped; others get mocked. The line that YOU are drawing here is arbitrary and capricious. Don't pretend it has anything to do with me.

you have a problem with me for having a problem with uterus man who's sucking attention from the media because I adhere to a religion that you find whacked.

Yeah, right that has nothing to do with you.

how come no one called me a hypocrite when I posted the article about the freak stuck to the toilet?


Still missing the point. I'm done trying.

[Miss Shelby]

The individual wishes to be treated as a man. What does being "treated as a man" entail?

Enter Ermin....I dunno, but a dude barking a baby out of his uterus seems like a funny way of going about wanting to be treated like a man.

[Brimshack]

Having thus declared all comparisons irrelevant, you proceed to draw a conclusion that is inherently comparative.

Congratulations.
Hmm, how do I make this easier for you.

Person A: Wow, look at that two-headed kitten.

:2faces:

Brimshack: Yah, and?

Person A: Well, it's a little bit odd.

Brimshack: No it's not! I'll tell you what's odd. A fucking lung transplant, that's odd!

Person A: :wtf:

So, your "odd" is different from my "odd". Now explain to me why I should use your supposedly quantitative "odd scale" as opposed to just using odd as something that's "out of the ordinary"? Because last I checked, a man having a baby was out of the ordinary.

I think "non-story" might be stretching it a bit, as it is out of the ordinary for someone who self-identifies as a man to possess the requisite parts to bear a child. On the other hand, I don't see where this is such an astounding deviation form the norm that we ought to be surprised or shocked about it. I'm definitely not shocked about the situation.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "quantitative odd scale," but "out of the ordinary" seems inherently quantitative to me. But "Out of the ordinary" does imply comparison, and by comparison an awful lot of people already believe in far stranger events than this, even participate in them every Sunday, and expect them of medical doctors.

Looking at your argument, the 3rd entry attributed to me misrepresents my own position. What I am saying is that there is no objective criterion by which this can be found odd while accepting the tenets of Christianity and making use of modern medical technology. Whereas as you have me positing a different event as uniquely odd; my point is precisely that those other events are already mundane by common understanding, and that this is in fact no different from the many things accepted as common place in religion and medical practice.

[Adam]

...my point is precisely that those other events are allready mundane by common parlance, and that this is in fact no different from the many things accepted as common place in religion and medical practice.

Yah, but this is about teh secks, which is a +300% multiplier to freaky.

[Brimshack]

...my point is precisely that those other events are allready mundane by common parlance, and that this is in fact no different from the many things accepted as common place in religion and medical practice.

Yah, but this is about teh secks, which is a +300% multiplier to freaky.

Zactly.

[Miss Shelby]

hey do you think this dude is going to have heavy post partum bleeding? If so, I'll send him some products. And some sitz bath materials. Since he wants to be treated like a man and all.

[Miss Shelby]

No. What I think is whacked is someone steeped in stories far more strange than this would make a point to draw the line here. Some freaks get worshipped; others get mocked. The line that YOU are drawing here is arbitrary and capricious. Don't pretend it has anything to do with me.

you have a problem with me for having a problem with uterus man who's sucking attention from the media because I adhere to a religion that you find whacked.

Yeah, right that has nothing to do with you.

how come no one called me a hypocrite when I posted the article about the freak stuck to the toilet?


Still missing the point. I'm done trying.
hence the av.

I put it there because I continually miss the point while people are continually missing mine.

[Smilin]

"Why keep"

Why ask rhetorical questions. He has already explained his reasons. he wanted to be able to have a baby. He wanted to be able to have a baby, and he wanted to have the identity of a male. By puruing this course of action, he was able to accomplish both of those goals.

I'd say this is a fantastic story of a person with clear vision and good fortitude.

Freddy, unless I have misread your posts in the past you support indigenous rights. Does this extend to their customs? ...to the practices of Two Spirit People?

Are Native American men able to claim the status of a woman while having a penis and this person unable to do so because he has a vagina? Or do you reject both claims?

The world and human history is full of people who have claimed to be one gender while possessing the gentials of another. And many MANY have found acceptance for just such claims.

I think the Native Americans claimed a dual gender and not the single male gender as in this case. If this person was to claim a dual gender I would understand that. The simple biological fact is that human males cannot become pregnant.


Yes, that is correct. They were seen as a "Two souls person", born of one gender, but identifying with the other.

[Smilin]

And this person you insist on treating as a freak.

It's like the times when other people playing online games call me a nerd. :giggle:

Know what I say? FUCK EM...

they don't like me for who I am...FUCK EM...

they don't like that I enjoy playing online games ESPECIALLY with my boys...FUCK EM...

they don't like world-of-warcraft? FUCK EM...

They want to call me a freak or a nerd...FUCK EM...I got a FEW choice phrases for their asses...

and trust me, I can cuss like a sailor...for I was one..for almost 6 years....


YAAARRRRRRRR...FUCK EM!

[Brimshack]

Going back to the ntion of what makes something odd, I don't think that "out of the ordinary" does it. If that were the case, then every unique surgury would be considered odd. Every medical procedure done for the first time would be odd. No, odd does imply something more. A sense of incongruity would be the most likely candidate, I think. A notion that x doesn't belong with y in some sense.

And that is my point. There is nothing incongruous about this. It's biologically possible. In fact, on that level it's hardly worthy of note. It's the role confusion that seems to tweak people's sensibilities. Those sensibilities remain as selective as ever.

[1Samuel8]

hey do you think this dude is going to have heavy post partum bleeding? If so, I'll send him some products. And some sitz bath materials. Hmmmm.... Anybody got a smiley for that one?

[Miss Shelby]

Serious question. The delivery will be C-section. The dude has a penis. So, how are they going to deal with the post partum bleeding that occurs? I had 2 C-sections and still had post partum bleeding. Is he going to bleed from his pee-wax?

[Adam]

His doctor (or any doctor...I don't know that we have any regulars that are practicing MDs) is probably better equipped to answer that than a bunch of random intertube yahoos, but I would assume some sort of temporary shunt will be installed.

[Miss Shelby]

I'm guessing they didn't close the vag off. This dude has the best of both worlds if you ask me.

[Adam]

Nah, the best of both worlds would be to have bewbs and no glass ceiling.

:shakebewb: :shakeglassceiling:

[freemonkey]

how come no one called me a hypocrite when I posted the article about the freak stuck to the toilet?

Because that really was some fucked up shit.

This story, not so much. For me, anyway.

[Miss Shelby]

And that is my point. There is nothing incongruous about this. It's biologically possible. In fact, on that level it's hardly worthy of note. It's the role confusion that seems to tweak people's sensibilities. Those sensibilities remain as selective as ever.It's medically possible to change it. I don't know of any born hermaphordites ( or peeps born with ambiguous genitalia for the pc sensitive) who can reproduce. It's also medically possible to cut your foot off and sew it back on in the opposite direction. Doesn't mean it's meant to be that way. I think we're too wrapped up in making people feel 'neato' about themselves than with using common sense. It's gonna make this guy feel neato to have penis and a va-jay jay. So no one should say anything against it because it makes him feel neato.

[Adam]

It's gonna make this guy feel neato to have penis and a va-jay jay. So no one should say anything against it because it doesn't fucking affect anyone besides him, his partner, and their child

:fixed:

[Miss Shelby]

Adam, you’ve been cool thus far, don’t turn into a douchebag now. Has it ever crossed your mind that the way people are able to come to a better understanding of things is by expressing bogus ideas and opinions, if in fact that’s what they happen to be? This couple have their faces in the newspaper, People Magazine and God knows how many other media outlets. It’s a topic of conversation. To say that people shouldn’t speak about their situation which they have made public, if it’s not positive because it doesn’t fucking effect them is ignorant. I'm sure you've made negative observations about behavior you've disagreed with as well. So my opinion is wrong to you, if you don't like it fuck off, but don't express the opinion that I should keep it to myself.

[A Dead Relative]

BTW, this person who I am treating like a freak is the one wanting her face plastered all over People magazine.The funny thing is, I remember them saying they didn't want all of the publicity. They sure found a good way to not get publicity.
:qduh:
:tard:

[Brimshack]

And that is my point. There is nothing incongruous about this. It's biologically possible. In fact, on that level it's hardly worthy of note. It's the role confusion that seems to tweak people's sensibilities. Those sensibilities remain as selective as ever.It's medically possible to change it. I don't know of any born hermaphordites ( or peeps born with ambiguous genitalia for the pc sensitive) who can reproduce. It's also medically possible to cut your foot off and sew it back on in the opposite direction. Doesn't mean it's meant to be that way. I think we're too wrapped up in making people feel 'neato' about themselves than with using common sense. It's gonna make this guy feel neato to have penis and a va-jay jay. So no one should say anything against it because it makes him feel neato.

Meant to be schmeant to be. you have no way of knowing what is "meant" in this case. For all you know, if he was meant to be anything it was exactly this. But you bring it up as if you did know. That's not faith; it's called lying.

This isn't about neato anything. It's about not letting people like you decide on the basis of your personal prejudice what is and what itsn't right. And it's the fact that you are not entitled to get your own neeto-high at someone else's expense and expect others to remain silent about the bigotry which masquerades as your faith.

[Adam]

Adam, you’ve been cool thus far, don’t turn into a douchebag now.

What the hell are you talking about? My douchebaggery is constant and inescapable.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the way people are able to come to a better understanding of things is by expressing bogus ideas and opinions, if in fact that’s what they happen to be? This couple have their faces in the newspaper, People Magazine and God knows how many other media outlets. It’s a topic of conversation. To say that people shouldn’t speak about their situation which they have made public, if it’s not positive because it doesn’t fucking effect them is ignorant. I'm sure you've made negative observations about behavior you've disagreed with as well. So my opinion is wrong to you, if you don't like it fuck off, but don't express the opinion that I should keep it to myself.

Where did I say that you should keep your opinion to yourself? You expressed the belief that there's some widely held opinion that "no one should say anything against it because it makes him feel neato". I simply pointed out, albeit with a zesty dash of douchebaggery, and a little help from Tink, what the most widely held opinion among those of us who aren't bothered by this actually is.

[Arrogant-One]

This story is ridiculous. If this idiot dies in child birth it would probably serve him right.

[Naruto]

This story is ridiculous. If this idiot dies in child birth it would probably serve him right.

Why?

[Artemis Entreri]

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/inlines/07_stan.jpg
"It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them."

[Ermintrude]

Looks to me like this is somebody saying [i]The way I want to be isn't what you allow women to be, so I must be a man. But I still want to be physically female". Maybe we should ask just what is it that this person feels makes her 'a man' and then why we can't say instead that since she is physically female, evidently common ideas about what 'men' and 'women' must be are wrong and people like her extend them. If I like rap music and talking Jamaican slang does that make me 'Black'? Is Colin Powell 'white'? There are those who would say so. They are the same as this person (including himself) accepting that how you behave dictates your sex and not that your sex should have no influence over how you are expected to behave.

[Brimshack]

"Why can't we say instead..." Interesting, that you ask for reasons people would not accept your preference, when that preference itself is an explicit denial of this man's preference.

No wonder you think I'm being oppressive. You clearly want gender disassociated from behavior. Fine. But you have decided that anyone who suggests a link of any kind is oppressive, and you seem to think that your position is less repressive. Thus, you are free to stop others from pursuing their own gender identity while others are fascists for supporting them. It's an odd game and a rather dishonest one.

But let's answer that rhetorical question, shall we?

First, we can say instead exactly what you like. We really can. We can decide to look at gender exactly as you want us all to. The fact remains that THIS person evidentally doesn't want to do that. THIS person has made decisions other than those you prefer, he appears to want the identity of a male. THIS person has another preference, and your decision to insist on your own approach to gender denies him his preferences. YOU are denying someone else their own gender identity. Pretty fucking authoritarian for someone who likes to talk about gender fascism.

Second, Your first sentence may or may not be a fair reconstruction of this persons' thinking. It's possible, yes. It is also possible that there is something about a male identity that this person wants. He has made a choice and that choice clearly places apremium on the idenity of a male in itself. If that is unacceptable to you then so be it, but do not pretend that by wilfully dismissing his stated intentions that you are somehow satisfying them after all.

As to the

[Arrogant-One]

This story is ridiculous. If this idiot dies in child birth it would probably serve him right.

Why?

Because only women are supposed to have babies.

"It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them."

Do you mean its every man's right to get his girl friend/wife pregnant if he wants to? That's a bit of an old fashioned view, but I'm easy.

Looks to me like this is somebody saying [i]The way I want to be isn't what you allow women to be, so I must be a man. But I still want to be physically female". Maybe we should ask just what is it that this person feels makes her 'a man' and then why we can't say instead that since she is physically female, evidently common ideas about what 'men' and 'women' must be are wrong and people like her extend them. If I like rap music and talking Jamaican slang does that make me 'Black'? Is Colin Powell 'white'? There are those who would say so. They are the same as this person (including himself) accepting that how you behave dictates your sex and not that your sex should have no influence over how you are expected to behave.

Hmmmmmmmmm, these are some interesting thoughts Ermintrude. That said, there always tends to be a natural order for things, and this fellow seems to be trying to circumvent that natural order.

[Brimshack]

And men weren't supposed to fly either. Are we circumventing it? Do the people who die in a plane crash deserve it, because they weren't SUPPOSED to be in the air?

Nah, it's only when sex pops up that folks in modern society are suddenly finicky about some sort of "natural order."

[Naruto]

I'm easy.

* Naruto looks hopefully at AO's gender

Male...damn :sadcheer:

[Arrogant-One]

And men weren't supposed to fly either. Are we circumventing it?
That is a very interesting comparison Brimshack. Thought provoking indeed! So you are saying that this dude getting pregnant is just scientific progression.

If so, it brings to mind that quote from the movie Jurassic Park - "The scientists were so busy thinking about whether they could achieve this, that nobody ever asked the question should we?" - or something to that effect.

AO

[Brimshack]

1) No I'm not saying that.

2) Your answer dodges the question.

Which leads me to 3) Can you produce a criterion (along with a compelling reason to adopt it) that approves the one and denies the other? Or do you maintain that both are inappropriate. If you can't produce such a criterion, then the application of the quote to this situation is arbitrary. One probably ought to have better than an arbitrary reason to wish death upon a person.

[erimir]

This person doesn’t want to be a man. This person wants to be a he/she. Why not just call it what it is?It for some reason thinks that its opinion matters. No reason to call it "she" instead, just because it asks to be and says that it's a female. I know what it really wants.

Therefore Miss Shelby will from now on referred to as "it".
hey do you think this dude is going to have heavy post partum bleeding? If so, I'll send him some products. And some sitz bath materials. Since he wants to be treated like a man and all.Probably he'd prefer it if you bent over and let him plow you with his big black strap-on (or penis, I dunno whether he had bottom surgery, I'm guessing not tho).
Serious question. The delivery will be C-section. The dude has a penis.Do we know he has a penis?

Anyway, we know that the pregnant dude really is a dude, because I saw him without his shirt on on TV and they didn't censor his chest. Therefore he must be a man!

[Artemis Entreri]

Sticking feathers in your butt does not make you a chicken. He's still a woman. All this talk about a "man" getting pregnant is just silly. A woman with gender identity issues got pregnant. That's not that remarkable. Hopefully she and her partner have planned this whole thing out right with their doctor to insure that she is healthy and hormonally balanced enough to carry the child to term.
To me this is only slightly more interesting than a really butch woman getting pregnant, which isn't all that much.


Oh, an AO I'm assuming you didn't get the Monty Python reference even though I included a picture from the film... that's sad. You must sally forth and rent all of their movies post haste.

[yguy]

Because only women are supposed to have babies.Next thing you'll be telling us is that only adults are supposed to have sex.

As if innocence is anything but a societal construct.

:rolleyes:

[Freddy]

This person had female breasts with mammary glands removed, the clitoris was surgically freed and took male hormones to allow it to grow into a "small penis", that allows intercourse. That was what this person said on Oprah. Other female organs are obviously still intact.

[Arrogant-One]

Oh, and AO I'm assuming you didn't get the Monty Python reference even though I included a picture from the film... that's sad. You must sally forth and rent all of their movies post haste.
Indeed!

A friend of mine who is a connoisseur of British film/tv recently suggested the same thing! I just finished the latest season of Dr Who yesterday and thought it was fantastic! Undoubtedly, that is one of the best sci fi shows ever made!

Best

AO

ps- I better stop for fear of thread drift occurring

[Ermintrude]

[quote=Ermintrude;527147]Looks to me like this is somebody saying [i]The way I want to be isn't what you allow women to be, so I must be a man. But I still want to be physically female". Maybe we should ask just what is it that this person feels makes her 'a man' and then why we can't say instead that since she is physically female, evidently common ideas about what 'men' and 'women' must be are wrong and people like her extend them. If I like rap music and talking Jamaican slang does that make me 'Black'? Is Colin Powell 'white'? There are those who would say so. They are the same as this person (including himself) accepting that how you behave dictates your sex and not that your sex should have no influence over how you are expected to behave.

Hmmmmmmmmm, these are some interesting thoughts Ermintrude. That said, there always tends to be a natural order for things, and this fellow seems to be trying to circumvent that natural order.

Arrogant-one, tend to agree with you. It looks to me like this person has become too subject to sex-fascists like Brimshak insisting that there are ghettoes called 'gender' that we must all be herded into based on how each sex ought to behave, and if your physical sex doesn't fit, you'd better change it to conform because no way are the Gender Police going to accept that they might be wrong and anybody can behave how the hell they like regardless of their physical sex (and 'gender' is a sexists divisive cultural construct).

[Ermintrude]

Sticking feathers in your butt does not make you a chicken. He's still a woman. All this talk about a "man" getting pregnant is just silly. A woman with gender identity issues got pregnant. That's not that remarkable.

Much more important that nobody wants to talk about is why this person wants to be regarded as a man while continuing to function as a woman. Is it some cultural apartheid that says certain ways of behaving are only available to one sex or the other? If so, shouldn't we change that so both sexes can do anything without feeling it is restricted to the other? Do male->female transgendered feel they can only express themselves freely by pretending to be women even though they retain their male genitalia? The monsters advertising themselves in spam porn as 'Shemales' are proud of their male genitalia. So why do they pretend to be a bad imitation of slutty women - that is, women acting out an imagined male fantasy of female sleaziness?

Without strict codes about how males and females are expected to behave, would there be as many men in dresses as women in trousers, no more making a fuss about gender than any normal woman does? But when you look close, female TGs pretending to be male tend to be 'casual' about it, while males more often slap on a tarty campness that real women have avoided for some 50 years (except the most desperate kind of prostitute and stripper), all fishnets, bouffant blond and caked make-up. So are they actually being 'women' or the very traditional 'male chauvinist' fantasy of women that real women rejected in the 1960s?

[erimir]

But when you look close, female TGs pretending to be male tend to be 'casual' about it, while males more often slap on a tarty campness that real women have avoided for some 50 years (except the most desperate kind of prostitute and stripper), all fishnets, bouffant blond and caked make-up. So are they actually being 'women' or the very traditional 'male chauvinist' fantasy of women that real women rejected in the 1960s?Are you basing your opinion of MTF trans people based on actually meeting them, or stereotypes you picked up from trash-talk shows and crappy movies?

I think we've already established, by the fact that you refuse to answer whether you've ever actually met any trans people, that you must not be basing it on any real experience of trans people.

Suffice it to say, you're complaining about stereotypes about gender and all that shit, while repeating some of the vile stereotypes about trans people that are the reason that they are the targets of hate crimes and discrimination. You ask us if we've ever thought that men and women might not act like the way society says they're "supposed to" act. And yet you apparently have never considered whether maybe trans people don't act like your simplistic stereotypes.

In other words, you're nothing but a hypocrite.

[Ermintrude]

I'm basing it on Internet groups and personal contacts and advertising, 'gay pride' circusses, a lodger my mother had for a while, homosexual women I've known and the advertising of homosexual venues. I don't doubt that there are many people who defy gender stereotyping since I am one of them. However, there are those, like feminists, whose loud-mouthed 'defiance' is in fact a confirmation that they they can only feel 'themselves' by claiming exemption from their natural born form - more usually a travesty of it - instead of just plain accepting they happen to feel comfortable gender stereotype and so showing that anybody can be free to be anything without locking themselves into anybody's predetermined sexist ghetto. does anybody think that Michael Jackson does anything to counteract racist stereotyping?

[Brimshack]

[quote=Ermintrude;527147]Looks to me like this is somebody saying [i]The way I want to be isn't what you allow women to be, so I must be a man. But I still want to be physically female". Maybe we should ask just what is it that this person feels makes her 'a man' and then why we can't say instead that since she is physically female, evidently common ideas about what 'men' and 'women' must be are wrong and people like her extend them. If I like rap music and talking Jamaican slang does that make me 'Black'? Is Colin Powell 'white'? There are those who would say so. They are the same as this person (including himself) accepting that how you behave dictates your sex and not that your sex should have no influence over how you are expected to behave.

Hmmmmmmmmm, these are some interesting thoughts Ermintrude. That said, there always tends to be a natural order for things, and this fellow seems to be trying to circumvent that natural order.

Arrogant-one, tend to agree with you. It looks to me like this person has become too subject to sex-fascists like Brimshak insisting that there are ghettoes called 'gender' that we must all be herded into based on how each sex ought to behave, and if your physical sex doesn't fit, you'd better change it to conform because no way are the Gender Police going to accept that they might be wrong and anybody can behave how the hell they like regardless of their physical sex (and 'gender' is a sexists divisive cultural construct).

The irony here is that AO has explicitly argued this person is violating the natural order, because he ahs behaved in a manner inappropriate to AO's ideas about gender. But you agree with him while accusing me of doing that. What have I done? I argued that THIS person ought to be accepted rather than forced to conform to someone else's ideas about how gender works.

I have expressed no opinion about how this person OUGHT to behave, nor about how he OUGHT to present himself. YOU HAVE, and AO most certainly has. But you cast me as oppresive while setting yourself up as a defender of freedom.

Ermin, you are an idiot and a hypocrit.

[erimir]

I'm basing it on Internet groups and personal contacts and advertising,Read: porn sites
'gay pride' circusses,How many of the people in those gay pride parades are drag performers and how many do you know to be MTF trans people? Or do you not realize there's a difference?

Not to mention it's a festival - it's not a reflection of people's daily lives, and only an idiot would think it was.
I don't doubt that there are many people who defy gender stereotyping since I am one of them. However, there are those, like feminists, whose loud-mouthed 'defiance' is in fact a confirmation that they they can only feel 'themselves' by claiming exemption from their natural born form - more usually a travesty of it - instead of just plain accepting they happen to feel comfortable gender stereotypeSo if they conform to "gender stereotype", they're reinforcing gender, and thus bad. And if they don't, they're reinforcing gender and thus bad.

Talk about your classic double bind. And somehow we're the ones who are oppressing people by not denigrating transsexuals.

[Sock Puppet]

If so, it brings to mind that quote from the movie Jurassic Park - "The scientists were so busy thinking about whether they could achieve this, that nobody ever asked the question should we?" - or something to that effect.That brings to mind a quote about the movie Jurassic Park - "They were so busy thinking about whether they could achieve the dinosaur effects, that nobody ever asked the question, 'Should we get a script that doesn't suck?'"

[ShottleBop]

Many of us here would support a transgendered person's desire to have reassignment surgery, but I haven't seen anyone here advocate that he/she be forced to have it. Ermintrude, would you deny the surgery to someone who wanted it?

[1Samuel8]

If so, it brings to mind that quote from the movie Jurassic Park - "The scientists were so busy thinking about whether they could achieve this, that nobody ever asked the question should we?" - or something to that effect. I believe that is a silly question to ask because there is no "we" in the equation. This "Pregnant Dude" can do whatever the hell he wants. So long as he is not assaulting other people, I see no basis for a "should" discussion. Having said that, you certainly have every moral right to disassociate yourself with people like that.




Sticking feathers in your butt does not make you a chicken. He's still a woman. So....... is that how he/she got pregnant?!?



How many of the people in those gay pride parades are drag performers and how many do you know to be MTF trans people? Or do you not realize there's a difference? Well, if either of those were done with any bit of class, you should not be able to recognize any of them!
As an aside, maybe it is just me but the only time that I can tell a person is in drag or if a person has had a sex change is when those "transformations" are embarrassingly shoddy.

[Ermintrude]

Many of us here would support a transgendered person's desire to have reassignment surgery, but I haven't seen anyone here advocate that he/she be forced to have it. Ermintrude, would you deny the surgery to someone who wanted it?

If somebody believes themself a cat trapped in a human body, would you deny them surgery to approximate a cat's body or refer them to a psychiatrist? You cannot answer why people should believe they belong to the other sex unless they are aware of some difference other than physical between the sexes. Otherwise they are no different from any other cosmetic conformity like a boob job. By definition, anyone who feels the need to change their physical type feels something wrong about it. But if there is no difference beyond appearance between types, what is there for them to feel wrong about?

[Brimshack]

Nice dodge.

It's easy enough to talk about other people's "gender fascism," but when you're asked point blank if you would deny someone surgury to change their own gender, you have only questions about their motives.

You are the one who wants others to conform to your ideas about gender. And your favorite insult is a perfectly apt description of your own behavior.

[Shelli]

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/inlines/07_stan.jpg
"It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.":rofl:



This person had female breasts with mammary glands removed, the clitoris was surgically freed and took male hormones to allow it to grow into a "small penis", that allows intercourse. That was what this person said on Oprah. Other female organs are obviously still intact.:thankee: for the info. Freddy. :hattip:

I can't imagine wanting to do that myself, but to each his/her own. :shrug:

[Ermintrude]

Nice dodge.

It's easy enough to talk about other people's "gender fascism," but when you're asked point blank if you would deny someone surgury to change their own gender, you have only questions about their motives.

You are the one who wants others to conform to your ideas about gender. And your favorite insult is a perfectly apt description of your own behavior.

Well tough fucking shit, fascist. You are the one waving this 'gender' fascism about. Of course I question the motives of sex-change since that is where I started, refuting cultural assumptions about 'gender' crap. You've already been put in a padded cell on this or another thread and I agree, you are quite incapable of questioning your own bigoted imposition of something you define as 'gender' and I reject.

Would I refuse somebody surgery to conform to what fascist prejudice indoctrinates them to be? Probably not, but I personally want to resist your fascist prejudice so that you are the bigots who have to wake up to people not conforming to the ghetto you want to place them in. fuck it, I've been there, you sexist filth, and then thought why the hell should I muck my body about to suit the sexist bigots ordering that how we look should determine how we dress and behave?

Should Michael Jackson have to make himself 'white' to behave in a way not acceptable for 'niggers'? Should I have to castrate myself in order to wear a dress?

My generation strove to liberate ourselves from all that and it's Gay Liberation and Feminism that restored all the old immovable stereotypes to force people to redefine themselves instead of shifting your sexist prejudice.

Who the fuck cares anyway? Men may not be as overtly 'feminine' as in 1970 but underneath their priorities may be much more family-orientated and 'feminine'. Women no longer believe they can lead men to better priorities and feminist reactionaries really hate men like me for wanting equality with women. But most real women out of college do now respect men for sharing in the domestic life they value however much feminist male chauvinists tell them it is 'inferior'.

If women or men feel inferior because their tits are not big enough or become anorexic because their waist is too big, should we defend their 'right' to fit the ghetto or question whether their choice is 'conditioned'? Why does anybody have to feel they can't be free to behave as they feel without making themselves to fit the ghetto allowed to behave that way?

[Brimshack]

"probably not".

Yep. YOU are the one prepared to impose your ideas about gender on this man's decisions. You are the one prepared to deny someone else their wishes on the basis of YOUR ideas about sex and gender. But I am a gender fascist for simply supporting his decisions. You don't read doublespeak like that everyday. Ermin, I haven't seen such blatant hypocrisy in a long time.

You don't want a surgury? Fine. Don't get a fucking surgury. But don't expect the rest ofthe world to revise the nature of sex and gender itself just to help you feel comfortable about that decision. And don't pretend that other people's failure to conform to your ideas make them oppressive and bigoted. We are not responsible for the baggage you bring to this issue.

[Ermintrude]

The 'rest of the world' doesn't have to be hung up on your restrictions about sex and gender. It doesn't have to make people feel out of place unless they cut their body up to conform to your sexist prejudices. I've seen how others respond to your sex-Nazism and I agree with them. You determine how people should behave according to what's between their legs and you hound them to change it to fit your sexist bigotry.

It never occurs to fascists to allow people to simply be as they feel free to be without any pressure to 'belong' to anything. I'm really not interested in shitholes telling me that conformity tio their restrictions is freedom and freedom from restriction is imposing restriction. We've all read '1984' and seen your sort of chicanery. You are the liar so obsessed with ghettoes of 'male' and 'female' that you deny those designations mean nothing more than the shape of a crotch rather than change your impositions of which ghetto you choose to force individuals into. I guess you are a great one too for explaining 'white niggers' and 'gentile jews' rather than ever change your prejudices.

There is no arguing against your like because you invent terms and change them to enforce them on others and when you have indoctrinated them, pretend in all innocence, like the North Korean government that that is what they want, so why shouldn't they have it? But you sexist filth dare not address why they want it, what prejudices your discrimination is built on. You are everything we thought sexual equality and liberation had liberated ourselves from, yet you are still there grinning like a loon screaming how freedom from prejudice is prejudice, the sexist (and feminist) equivalent of the KKK marching against the 'repression' of having to accept that black people can act like white and white like black without needing to change their race. You lost in 1945.

[Brimshack]

Look, you fucking retard, I stopped reading atthe first sentence. The world doesn't have to live with my restrictions? I AM NOT RESTRICTING ANYBODY! Can you read, you fucking idiot. I'm not the one saying anyone has to be any one way or that they owe me an explanation for how they want to live. YOU ARE! You are the one willing to literally force your views on others. And while you rail away at me for supporting this person, you express explicit agreement with someone wishing death on him for failing to meet his expectations regarding gender. If you weren't too stupid to see how rediculous your crap is, you would come up with better lies. As it stands, there is nothing to be done about your idiocy. You are as perfectly shameless in your dishonesty as anyone I have ever met.

Fucking idiot.

[Naruto]

Ermintrude, you are either an idiot or a troll. If you are a troll, then you are fucking tl;dr and thus suck at trolling. If you are just an idiot, then you suck at reading.

[Caligulette]

Third option: Seriously damaged, needs therapy.

[Qingdai]

Fourth option: Has everyone on ignore, responding to argument in head. Which does not rule out the first, second or third option.

[Ermintrude]

Look, you fucking retard, I stopped reading atthe first sentence. The world doesn't have to live with my restrictions? I AM NOT RESTRICTING ANYBODY! Can you read, you fucking idiot. I'm not the one saying anyone has to be any one way or that they owe me an explanation for how they want to live. YOU ARE! You are the one willing to literally force your views on others. And while you rail away at me for supporting this person, you express explicit agreement with someone wishing death on him for failing to meet his expectations regarding gender. If you weren't too stupid to see how rediculous your crap is, you would come up with better lies. As it stands, there is nothing to be done about your idiocy. You are as perfectly shameless in your dishonesty as anyone I have ever met.

Fucking idiot.

Yes, well I've seen what the other people on this thread have to say about you. As you say, you stop reading at the first sentence. Because anything else might require you to give a rational response instead of posing as defending a position that was never under attack - because you can't defend the one that is under attack.

If a woman wants to live like a man and have cosmetic surgery, does anybody object to that? Has anybody even on this thread condemned it?

No: what I and others object to is the sex-fascism that if a woman chooses to live and look like a man or a man like a woman, they should feel obliged to pretend they actually are the other sex - because gender fascism refuses to accept that people do not always behave as is stereotyped of their sex, and indoctrinates them from childhood to feel they do not belong.

Tough. There is no way men or women 'should' behave. If they don't behave the way you demand, change your fucking 19th century rigid ideas and let people live as they want to live, not indoctrinating them if they won't fit one of your ghettoes, they have to belong to another. 'Man', 'woman', 'male', 'female' is a pure accident of what is between your legs. It makes some medical differences regarding heritable diseases. It has nothing at all to do with clothes, likings, behaving, mannerisms or anything else that bigots define as masculine or feminine.

Masculine and feminine ar pure cultural constructed polarities: anybody can be 'masculine' in some respects, 'feminine' in others. Every test I have ever taken along those lines rates me about 80% feminine. So what? I still have male genitalia - it just shows that men can be as liberated from sexism as can women, not that everybody who fails to fit traditional expectations of their body shape should identify as the other sex.

[Caligulette]

Who are these "others" who are agreeing with you and objecting to the same things to which you object? Quotes, please.

[Brimshack]

You're still lying Ermintrude. And those who have made comments about me are far more authoritarian on this subject than I am. As to the rest of your comments, I am done. You are a lying sack of shit, and until that changes, there is no reason to keep trying to correct your persistent misreadings of my posts as well as others.

Lie on shitwit.

[Ermintrude]

Go away you silly little boy and read your Bible. What's between your legs does not determine how you behave. We went through all this crap in the 1960s liberating ourselves from sexism and now juvenile shit like you and 'feminists' come back trying to impose all the stereotypes we smashed. I don't care what the Iranian Grand Ayatollah pronounces out of his refutation of modernity and I don't care what sexist filth try to enforce on each sex.

You'll just have to get used to the idea that women can do 'masculine' things and men 'feminine' instead of judging each according to your sexist ideas of how everybody should behave according to their genitals.

I guess you've never heard of 'sexual liberation'. Who the fuck cares about morons in a time warp dictating that people who upset their ideas of how each sex behaves must become the other sex to maintain their sexist prejudice? I live in a civilised country that asks first, when people feel they don't 'belong' in their born sex, why and whether it might be the expectations on that sex that are wrong, not fascists ordering them to feel only right if they chop their body about to conform instead of liberating sexist demands on each sex - especially men of course, since women have far fewer restrictions on how they behave.

I prefer women's clothes to men's , women's traditions to men's, oriental music to western: must I be castrated and have my skin darkened to be free to be myself, or do your prejudices about how western men 'must' behave need some liberalising?

I know all about your kind: my people fell under Nazi occupation.

Just what is your problem with people feeling free to live as they choose without having to conform to your labels of 'male' or 'female' dependent upon how [u]you[/u[ judge them instead of genitalia being as insignificant as skin shade? Or maybe to you, whites who like rap and blacks who like orchestras should be lining up for 'physical correction' to suit your prejudice?

[Crumb]

Ermintrude:
I am having trouble pinning down exactly what your viewpoint is on this. All the Nazi blather isn't really helping when no one is actually saying anything Nazi-ish at all.

Society treats people differently based on their apparent gender. This guy wants to be treated like a dude. So he is. Who cares? No one has suggested that any man with "feminine" characteristics or any woman with "masculine" ones must needs have any operations or dress in any particular manner.

This person wanted to have the surgery and wants to be perceived as a man, is that wrong? Would you not allow that? Why?

[Ermintrude]

My point of view is that 'gender' is cultural crap. 'Sex' exists defined by physical appearance, just as 'race' does, but neither has the slightest determination of how anybody should behave. The majority of white men are not rap artists - but Eminem is and nobody has pressurised him to feel he 'should' darken his skin to conform. The majority of men behave in certain ways because they are brought up to avoid appearing 'feminine', while women are brought up freer from such nonsense sexist restriction.

A woman gets pregnant while insisting she is 'really' a man. She isn't: a man lacks the organs of pregnancy. This must be one individual in a society that makes it feel 'inferior' to be a woman, who is evaluating themself by characteristics other than genitalia. It's like Michael Jackson making himself 'white' - or even more so insisting he is 'white' because of how he behaves regardless of how he looks. He can only do that if how 'black' and 'white' behave are expected different. If they're the same, what is there to choose?


This woman wants to be treated as a man, to pretend she is a man, while being in the most crucial respect, a woman. What social pressure makes her feel she cannot bear a child and be a woman while behaving as she imagines a man. What social pressure allows women access to all that men can do but prevents men from access to women's freedom of self-expression? Why assume that what's between anyone's legs has any influence at all on how they behave?

Trans-sexual is a kind of cosmetic surgery; trans-gender who do not change sex while living as the other sex are a different matter. They call into question the different ways society treats each sex instead of allowing real equality. If there were no gender distinctions, how could trans-gender mean anything? It is like trans-race 50 years ago. Remove stereotyped expected concepts of how anyone should behave based on their genitals and you remove the concept of any 'gender' to 'trans'. That is what I believe in, freedom from gender stereotyping, 'sex' is just an insignificant body shape irrelevant to anything else.

If you push me, then in terms of 'gender' as understood today, then I believe that feminism stands for elimination of feminine gender and imposing traditional conservative wage-slavery 'masculinity' on both sexes, while I believe in elimination of 'masculine values' and both sexes traditionallly 'feminine'. That is why I use 'Ermintrude', to spit in the face of 'feminists' telling women they are inferior to men unless they conform to the conservative 'masculine world' instead of asserting women's superior freedom for men to join them and replace that world like the women I used to know in the 1970s.

[Arrogant-One]

If so, it brings to mind that quote from the movie Jurassic Park - "The scientists were so busy thinking about whether they could achieve this, that nobody ever asked the question should we?" - or something to that effect.That brings to mind a quote about the movie Jurassic Park - "They were so busy thinking about whether they could achieve the dinosaur effects, that nobody ever asked the question, 'Should we get a script that doesn't suck?'"

Oh, come on. It was the 90's, you have to make allowances for these kind of things :yup2:

Best

AO

ps- Love your avatar mate, just excellent!

[Crumb]

:chin: So why are you calling Brimshack a Nazi? It really doesn't help you get your point across.

[Brimshack]

It would appear that seeing any connection between sex and behavior, however consctructed or malleable, is sufficient to earn one the label "gender-nazi." For that matter, simply disagreeing with Ermin on pretty much anything will eventually get you that label.

On the other hand, wishing death upon someone for failing to live up to one's own ideas of gender norms falls well short of the concern.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

It's not the widest, but it certainly is the finest, selection of fucknuttery 'round these parts for those several minutes out of every year I'm in the mood for it.

[Ermintrude]

It would appear that seeing any connection between sex and behavior, however constructed or malleable, is sufficient to earn one the label "gender-nazi." For that matter, simply disagreeing with Ermin on pretty much anything will eventually get you that label.

On the other hand, wishing death upon someone for failing to live up to one's own ideas of gender norms falls well short of the concern.

That's right, bigot: there is no connection whatsoever between what is between one's legs and behaviour, and it was one 'feminists' were first to refute before 'feminism' came to mean enforcing sexist prejudice and 'masculine' superiority.

I believe in sexual equality. I do not need to become a eunuch to love and respect women as equal. Feminists and other sex-fascists do demand surgery to fit your sexist prejudice of how genitals mustdetermine, and feminist belief that tradisionsl 'mascukline' is superior to women and anyting feminsts despise as shamefully 'feminine', and when your sexism is proven false, demand the body conform to your demands instead of liberating your sexism to accept that physical sex has nothing to do with the prejudices that your sort of sexist filth impose and for 40 years we have been liberating ourselves from.

Sexists sluts like you cannot accept sexual equality; you indoctrinate instead, whoever doesn't fit, to change their body to conform to your prejudice instead of to show that what you sexist Nazis define pf 'Men' or 'Women' is utter sexist impositional crap. We are as we are, not slaves to your 'masculine' and 'feminine'. We are liberated: sluts like you and feminists were sexist reactionaries even in the 1950s. Well, mabey not in the USA that is a time warp identical to Iran.

[Brimshack]

Bump

[But]

That's right, bigot: there is no connection whatsoever between what is between one's legs and behaviour

Wow, what a load of crap.

[Arrogant-One]

self deleted post

[1Samuel8]

I believe in sexual equality. I do not. I believe men should open doors for women.

[Angakuk]

A woman opened a door for me yesterday. I was not offended.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

A woman opened a door for me yesterday. I was not offended.

Yes, but you're also a demoniac who's worshiping a false god (not GAWD), so really I'd expect just that sort of immoral, gay-agenda-promoting response from you.

[Angakuk]

Or, it could have been that (given my prodigious beer-belly) she thought I was pregnant.

[Ermintrude]

I believe in sexual equality. I do not. I believe men should open doors for women.

That only becomes unequal if you believe women should not open doors for men. Personally, I believe in equality: all children should grow up with the same socialisation, values, attitudes traditionally expected of girls and 'masculinity' eliminated. Hence my loathing of most feminists for doing just the opposite, and often declaring that while women can be (and have been) 'indoctrinated' and can change, men are their natural selves and cannot change. The truth is the opposite: boys are taught to become men, but girls mostly develop much more free to be as they choose to be.

[Angakuk]

Personally, I believe in equality: all children should grow up with the same socialisation, values, attitudes traditionally expected of girls and 'masculinity' eliminated.

That is not sexual equality. That is gynocentrism. If you believed in sexual equality you would advocate that all children should grow up with the same socialization, values and attitudes that are traditionally expected of both girls and boys. You appear to be every bit as reprehensible as the "Feminist Filth" that you find so disgusting. Your attitude may represent the other side of the coin, but it is still the same coin. You appear to think that is degrading for a woman to want to be like a man, but admirable for man to want to be like a woman. What is wrong with both men and women just wanting to be human, and each person defining, for themselves, what that means?

[Ermintrude]

The difference is that girls have been socialised to express themselves as individuals and to some extent, to be considerate of other people as human beings like themselves, while boys are taught to suppress individual expression and think of themselves more as economic units - servants judged by others according to the use that can be made of them. A girl can (could) look forward to feeling that just how she looks and dresses and behaves shows her as a person before she has to do anything. The last time any man could say the same, he probably owned slaves.

So the socialisation is not balanced evenly: girls were taught to express themselves, boys to suppress themselves. She can still expect to get money and attention from men much more easily than men can from women. Feminists on the whole attack all that and seek to reduce women to the same 'industrial' servitude as men.

There are aspects of 'masculinity' that are worth having, but they are the old-fashioned virtues that our competitive culture seeks to eliminate - responsibility to family, reliability, self-sacrifice. But these are features expected of mothers too.

[Angakuk]

So, you are saying that there are some aspects of human behavior of which you approve and some of which you do not approve. I fail to see how that has anything to do with sexual differentiation.

The fact is that you approve of certain behaviors and attitudes that you identify with being feminine and you disapprove of certain behaviors and attitudes that you identify with being masculine. Never mind whether or not those behaviors and attitudes actually have anything to do with being male or female. According to you if a female exhibits, or chooses to exhibit, those behaviors and attitudes that you label as masculine she is a victim of feminist brainwashing. If a male exhibits, or chooses to exhibit, those behaviors and attitudes that you label as feminine, then he is to be applauded as being enlightened. It all sounds pretty sexist to me.

[Ermintrude]

I don't personally associate these behaviours with either sex. I think it is quite clear that that is something society does and if it did not do, then the whole argument about 'feminism' would not exist, since there would be no expectation for females to be feminine or males to be masculine.

There is such an expectation and I think 'society' makes it very clear what it regards as 'masculine' or 'feminine', feminists even more so and in their opinion, 'masculine' is both undesirable in men but desirable in women.

I don't believe there is such natural distinction to anything like the degree society expects. That women do everything traditional to men proves that. That men still do not behave as traditional to women shows only that 'society' and the feminists who claim to be opposing it both hold identical views that what has been required of men is preferable to what has been expected of women. Those expectations are pure cultural indoctrination based on exaggerating minor differences to extremes as different as possible.

My view is that the masculine ideal is essentially repressive, the feminine essentially expressive. So boys need to be liberated from indoctrination into masculinity while girls are allowed to grow up free to express themselves. To pretend the expectations are simple alternatives is like pretending that military conscription or jail is a simple alternative to freedom.

[Angakuk]

Masculine and feminine need not be mutually exclusive alternatives. That is something of a false dichotomy. There exists a wide range of human behaviors. Traditionally some of those behaviors have been labled masculine and some have been labeled feminine. They are just labels. By insisting on using those labels you perpetuate the very stereotypes that you claim to despise. If you really believe in sexual equality then discard those labels and liberate yourself from the stereotypes.

[Caligulette]

Meanwhile- back on the topic of a man being pregnant. I guess we finally get to find out if this quote is true:

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

~ Flo Kennedy ~

[Legs]

The pregnant dude is pregnant again. :raisetheroof:

[Adam]

Breeder.

[Sovereign]

I believe if you are going to claim to be a male then you have to give up the female anatomy.I doubt this individual will pay much heed. I also know of a few male-to-female transsexuals who've opted to keep part of their male anatomy. It's not universally accepted (even by transsexuals), but oh well.