Narcissists: Can they be reasoned with?

[LadyShea]

Anybody here ever had to deal with a narcissist (not merely arrogant, I am talking pathological or personality disordered level of self absorption) on a consistent enough basis that they might have a tip on how to communicate with one short term?

Having done customer service for 20 years I have a few things I have learned, but none of them have worked in two specific instances recently, and I need to try a different approach.

[Master Taran]

Give them Gurdur's phone # ?

[seebs]

I've never found a way to do so. They seem to generally be capable of such perfect dishonesty that there is simply no such thing as contrary evidence in their world.

[mickthinks]

They seem to generally be capable of such perfect dishonesty that there is simply no such thing as contrary evidence in their world. LOL! Unlike those who are capable of such perfect dishonesty that they accuse others without any supporting evidence at all (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=483450#post483450).

Ahhh, I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning!
:copter::copter::copter::copter::copter::copter:

Mick

[davidm]

They seem to generally be capable of such perfect dishonesty that there is simply no such thing as contrary evidence in their world. LOL! Unlike those who are capable of such perfect dishonesty that they accuse others without any supporting evidence at all (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=483450#post483450).

Ahhh, I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning!
:copter::copter::copter::copter::copter::copter:

Mick

Mick, this thread is about you. Revel in it. :yup:

BTW, what does hyprocisy smell like? I'm not getting any oflcatory impression here...

[Uthgar the Brazen]

NO MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[Plant Woman]

Nope, they cannot be reasoned with. I have dealt with them in my life and just finished up therapy because of being raised by one. No matter what, you will always be wrong. There is never a solution to problems when dealing with them. Stay as far away as you can and try not to have to deal with them, unless absolutely necessary.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

you must be a humanist.

[D. Scarlatti]

Narcissists: Can they be reasoned with?

[something or other]

Does that answer your question?

[LadyShea]

Nope, they cannot be reasoned with. I have dealt with them in my life and just finished up therapy because of being raised by one. No matter what, you will always be wrong. There is never a solution to problems when dealing with them. Stay as far away as you can and try not to have to deal with them, unless absolutely necessary.


It's absolutely necessary unfortunately.

[seebs]

You know, mick, you were actually one of the examples I had in mind. I've seen you, on multiple occasions, completely reverse the sense of words, change words in the middle of a sentence, and otherwise do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to avoid admitting ANY fault. Ever. I have never, once, seen you admit to any kind of flaw or shortcoming.

And that means there's no point in trying to communicate, because NOTHING you experience will ever survive your cognitive defenses unaltered. You will always be the hero of the story you are telling yourself, and damn the consequences to those around you.

I'd try to help, but I don't see any way to, and that makes me sad.

[Adam]

Narcissists: Can they be reasoned with?

[something or other]

Does that answer your question?

I used to get annoyed when mick would link to the old threads where he's suffered so greatly from various and sundry slings and arrows, but I've since realized that it's like I'm getting the :ff: 's greatest comedy hits delivered directly into my threads without even having to pay $29.99 $19.99 $9.99 for them.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

the best thing to do is this:

rig up a speaker to a mirror that has a looped recording saying: "really? tell me more."

when you are confronted by this person just put the mirror in front of their face and press play...that should buy you enough time until you find a better solution.

[lisarea]

It's hard to say without knowing the specifics, but if you really have to, the only way to 'reason' with an actual narcissist is to appeal to their self interest.

I haven't known many actual, clinical narcissists, so I haven't gotten much practice, but I'd reckon that you just dispense with any kind of appeal to facts or their nonexistent better instincts and just focus on your ultimate goal, then explain to them how [goal] is beneficial to them in some way. They can be vindictive, though, so beneficial to them might mean detrimental to someone else.

Or, if it's an option, hit them with a hammer until they do what you say.

[LadyShea]

I haven't known many actual, clinical narcissists, so I haven't gotten much practice, but I'd reckon that you just dispense with any kind of appeal to facts or their nonexistent better instincts and just focus on your ultimate goal, then explain to them how [goal] is beneficial to them in some way. They can be vindictive, though, so beneficial to them might mean detrimental to someone else.

In one case this is exactly what I did. Unfortunately he is so wrapped up in his own stupid goal, he still won't listen.

Or, if it's an option, hit them with a hammer until they do what you say.

This is good, I am off to find the badassest hammer they make.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

the best thing to do is this:

rig up a speaker to a mirror that has a looped recording saying: "really? tell me more."

when you are confronted by this person just put the mirror in front of their face and press play...that should buy you enough time until you find a better solution.

Outside of the hammer idea, I endorse this one.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

the best thing to do is this:

rig up a speaker to a mirror that has a looped recording saying: "really? tell me more."

when you are confronted by this person just put the mirror in front of their face and press play...that should buy you enough time until you find a better solution.

Outside of the hammer idea, I endorse this one.

thanks, UTB. you are a decent person. you aren't a punisher and you judge people on all they say, not just on what you don't like. i feel bad for people like that. sometimes, i wonder why i continue here, but there is a lesson in all of this for me. it is personal.

now where did that all come from? :)

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

oh yeah...narcissism.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

you are a decent person.

Lies! Slander! Vile calumny! I flushed a pic of your kid down the toilet and laughed maniacallallellumwhatevery as I did it! Then I ate some cookies as though nothing meaningful had just happened!

:shake1111:

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

still...

[mickthinks]

Mick, this thread is about you. Revel in it. LOL It wasn't, but it is now you've turned up, David!
:wave:

[mickthinks]

you were actually one of the examples I had in mind.
Oooooh! That makes davidm look clairvoyant!
:haunted:

I've seen you, on multiple occasions, [...] do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to avoid admitting ANY fault.
Nicely put! This observation is either about my dishonesty or it is about yours, seebs - depending on whether you can provide any evidence of your accusation that will stand up to scrutiny.

So far, in spite of your oft-touted 'multiple occasions', you have not once responded to a request for a link to an example. That's because you've never seen it happen.

I'd try to help, but I don't see any way to, and that makes me sad.
Turn off the waterworks, baby - your tears are not convincing without the evidence.

Mick

[Qingdai]

I haven't known many actual, clinical narcissists, so I haven't gotten much practice, but I'd reckon that you just dispense with any kind of appeal to facts or their nonexistent better instincts and just focus on your ultimate goal, then explain to them how [goal] is beneficial to them in some way. They can be vindictive, though, so beneficial to them might mean detrimental to someone else.

In one case this is exactly what I did. Unfortunately he is so wrapped up in his own stupid goal, he still won't listen.

Or, if it's an option, hit them with a hammer until they do what you say.

This is good, I am off to find the badassest hammer they make.


Having been raised by wolves a narcissist. I would explain how their idea is great for them, but the other idea is even better. My hitting with a hammer is repeating the argument ad nauseum. Works only part of the time.

[freemonkey]

I haven't known many actual, clinical narcissists, so I haven't gotten much practice,

I didn't think I had either, so I read up on it a bit, and I swear the clinical descriptions fit a neighbor I've had big trouble with to a T. Explains a lot.

explain to them how [goal] is beneficial to them in some way. They can be vindictive, though, so beneficial to them might mean detrimental to someone else.

And then, hopefully, you won't have to continue to deal with them anymore. Because, in my experience with aforementioned neighbor, things just got harder, until I'd had enough & said so. Then they got way worse for awhile.

Is this someone you have to deal with on a regular basis, LS?

[LadyShea]

Is this someone you have to deal with on a regular basis, LS?

I have 2 situations. One is (now was) with a customer, and no, this is due to a short term problem so not a regular interaction. I was able to escalate it just this minute, as he threatened a lawsuit. So out of my hands ...YES!!!

The other is, unfortunately, someone I will have to deal with regularly and for a long time (unless he does something so egregious as to justify ceasing contact. As a person of integrity who has made a commitment to contact with him, though, it would need to be something really bad...like dangerous to people). I am only just finding out he is a narcissist though. I thought at first he was just kind of a coddled dumbass. Then I thought he was merely an immature fuckup, with enough charm that he managed to get his way with a lot of people. Now I know it's worse than that...the guy is pathologically self absorbed.

[Kevlar]

In my experience, I've only been able to manage relationships with narcissists by pandering to their ego. Although, that only works in the short term... I have no idea about long term, except maybe a good firearm.

[lisarea]

I am kind of a big racist against serious pathological narcissists. I sort of consider them sub-human, so personally, I'd probably cut the person off regardless of any personal commitment I'd made, just on the grounds that, when I make a commitment to a human being, there's an implicit assumption that they live up to certain minimum 'human being' standards, including having some kind of capability for empathy and concern or at least ability to act in the better interests of others.

And the narcissists I'm familiar with do pose a danger to others, simply because of that disregard and lack of empathy. Depending on the situation, that risk might be physical or emotional, but there is always a risk.

At the very least, I think you'd be justified in placing conditions and reasonable limitations on the contact you've committed to in order to mitigate those risks.

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

narcissism is a mental condition...can you not feel some empathy for these people?

[seebs]

narcissism is a mental condition...can you not feel some empathy for these people?

Sure. I feel awful for them.

However, no amount of empathy for them makes them even capable of being honest when it doesn't make them feel good. They can't be honest, they can't be trustworthy. So interactions with them are, well, difficult.

[viscousmemories]

I thought at first he was just kind of a coddled dumbass. Then I thought he was merely an immature fuckup, with enough charm that he managed to get his way with a lot of people. Now I know it's worse than that...the guy is pathologically self absorbed.
I'm sitting right here y'know. :sadcheer:

[seebs]

Oh, great. Six years from now, mickthinks will be showing up unannounced at parties claiming that viscousmemories claims to have a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder.

[Garnet]

Lady Shea, not much help here. All jokes about Gurdur aside, I was just chatting with MT about the last time I had to be around someone like you mention in the OP. He was an executive in the company the was the prime contractor on the last project I was on. Dealing with him was always a stress fest . The only way I can handle these folks is to stay the hell away from them. He is one of the reasons I left that project.

[Master Taran]

I still say give them Gurdur's phone #. That way he can tell them to get over their selves.

[Ensign Steve]

sometimes, i wonder why i continue here, but there is a lesson in all of this for me. it is personal.

I thought you stuck around because you like me.

Oh wait, you mean it's not all about me?!

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

oh it's always about you. you definitely brighten this place up. :)

[Ensign Steve]

The other is, unfortunately, someone I will have to deal with regularly and for a long time (unless he does something so egregious as to justify ceasing contact. As a person of integrity who has made a commitment to contact with him, though, it would need to be something really bad...like dangerous to people). I am only just finding out he is a narcissist though. I thought at first he was just kind of a coddled dumbass. Then I thought he was merely an immature fuckup, with enough charm that he managed to get his way with a lot of people. Now I know it's worse than that...the guy is pathologically self absorbed.
I'm trying to guess who it is. Is it anyone I know? Wait, it's not me, is it? :shiftier:


oh it's always about you. you definitely brighten this place up. :)
You're such a sweetie. :squeezle: And you definitely make this place worth coming back to every day.

[Chris Porter]

Anybody here ever had to deal with a narcissist (not merely arrogant, I am talking pathological or personality disordered level of self absorption) on a consistent enough basis that they might have a tip on how to communicate with one short term?

Having done customer service for 20 years I have a few things I have learned, but none of them have worked in two specific instances recently, and I need to try a different approach.

Yes, I've known a couple, no, I still don't know how to deal with them. I've read it may be possible if you appeal to something about them they consider special. Or perhaps flatter them by pointing out you think they are special.

OK, and then I read all the posts, which say essentially the same thing. I wound up removing myself from both, and I'm quite convinced they have no idea why I did so.

[naturalist.atheist]

Here is what this site has to say about it:

How to Talk To A Narcissist - by Bill Snow - Response to Readers' Questions (http://www.psytalk.info/articles/narcissist.html)

[LadyShea]

vm, you are a lot of things, but not a narcissist. I can tell on accounta I like you.

And yes, Ensign Steve, it's YOU!

Actually it's Kiddo's bio-dad. I wanted to stay vague but can't think of any reason why I should, now I think of it.

[Ensign Steve]

And yes, Ensign Steve, it's YOU!


I knew it! It's all about me! :w00t:

Seriously, though, I'm sorry to hear that. I know how complicated those relationships can get, and personality disorders do not help! Best wishes.

[lisarea]

If you're worried about it affecting Kiddo, do what you think is right, and don't worry about any commitments you made to the bio-dad. The Kiddo commitment trumps that.

If you want to cut him off or limit his interactions in the interests of the kid, you should. Depending on how far gone bio-dad is, he'll either understand at some level, and accept his responsibility for it and possibly even do something to change his behaviors; or he will fail to acknowledge his role in the situation and blame you entirely, which is all the confirmation you need that your decision was the right one.

The one serious narcissist I'm currently familiar with has a kid, and all that kid is to him is a means to various selfish ends. He seems to be completely unconcerned with his child's well being, and while the kid is doing pretty well despite it, he hasn't come out unscathed by a long stretch. Of course, this guy has shared custody, so the effect is more severe than it would be with occasional supervised visits, but only you guys can determine what's OK for your kid and what isn't.

[mickthinks]

... mick would link to the old threads where he's suffered [...] I'm getting the :ff:'s greatest comedy hits ...

Not quite, Adam. I linked to seebs' false accusation as evidence of his dishonesty. You've invented my suffering for a laugh.

How does that work? :chin:

Mick

[LadyShea]

If you're worried about it affecting Kiddo, do what you think is right, and don't worry about any commitments you made to the bio-dad. The Kiddo commitment trumps that.

In case you haven't figured it out, this is why I emailed you recently. This guy's not around enough to be any kind of strong influence. I do worry that Kiddo might have questions or concerns later, and the whole reason we did open adoption is so he can ask them directly. My commitment is more to maintain civil relations until he is old enough to do it himself (or not as the case may be, we won't force anything on him).

No problemo with the rest of his bio family (including this guys parents)...we all get along great and everyone seems to be comfortable in their roles.

If you want to cut him off or limit his interactions in the interests of the kid, you should. Depending on how far gone bio-dad is, he'll either understand at some level, and accept his responsibility for it and possibly even do something to change his behaviors; or he will fail to acknowledge his role in the situation and blame you entirely, which is all the confirmation you need that your decision was the right one.

Most of the people he surrounds himself with are weak, or codependent, and allow him to abuse and take advantage of them. Just being ourselves is difficult for him, because trying to manipulate hubby is like trying to teach a pig to sing, and he is so "classic" I have been able to predict all his actions, down to predicting a phone call the day before it came. IOW, I am on to him.

Anyway, so far he has never done anything overtly, in our presence, worthy of cut off. He made some comments to Kiddo's first mom (before she cut him off completely, finally), and has tried to manipulate me into information about her after she stopped talking to him, and just been boneheaded and cloddish now that he has to talk to me directly(because he no longer has her as a go between), and I believe we may be headed towards a confrontation. OTOH I'm kinda thinking he may just stop communicating with us eventually instead of going there, since we don't offer him anything but a relationship with us and our kid and he's apparently intimidated by hubby.

Luckily Kiddo is so young he doesn't know what's going on. This guy hasn't made much of an impression on him...Kiddo spontaneously talks/asks about the guy's parents and sister and other people who have visited us, but never once has mentioned his name when he's not here.


BTW Ensign Steve, just to bring it back to YOU...Kiddo suddenly decided his "Soorfer Baby" must be with him at all times :)

[JamesBannon]

I'd rather avoid talking to narcissists if I can do so. Otherwise I just be polite if that's possible.

[Ensign Steve]

Kiddo suddenly decided his "Soorfer Baby" must be with him at all times :)

Awesome! :surfing:

You guys been to the beach much this summer spring?

[LadyShea]

Nah, we went and flew a kite a few days, but it hasn't been consistently warm enough. We tried to have a picnic at Gulf State Park for Easter and it was so windy at the beach we had to come back to the house.

[mickthinks]

Oh, great. Six years from now, mickthinks will be showing up unannounced at parties claiming that viscousmemories claims to have a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder.

Having run away again from the direct confrontation over your "I have seen you on multiple occasions" false testimony, you're reduced to what Brimshack condemns as 'goading'. It doesn't look good, seebs.

[Dingfod]

LS, I'm sorry you have to deal with this guy. But, if there's someone better equipped to do it, I don't know them.



oh it's always about you. you definitely brighten this place up. :)
You're such a sweetie. :squeezle: And you definitely make this place worth coming back to every day.I'm feeling a bit ill now.

Yes, it's all about me.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

LS, I'm sorry you have to deal with this guy. But, if there's someone better equipped to do it, I don't know them.



oh it's always about you. you definitely brighten this place up. :)
You're such a sweetie. :squeezle: And you definitely make this place worth coming back to every day.I'm feeling a bit ill now.

Yes, it's all about me.

NO YOUME! :glare:

[Smilin]

Give them Gurdur's phone # ?LOLOLOLOL..I certainly got a chuckle out of that one...heh!:D:yup:

[LadyShea]

Resurrecting due to recent display of self absorption. I am mostly venting here, having turned over the actual "dealing with" part to hubby.

For the purposes of this thread:
H is Kiddo's bio-dad
F is his birth mom

H's parents have visited us 5 times, though it has required some sacrifice on their part, and we have formed a mutually respectful and pleasant relationship with them. They adore Kiddo and are good guests. H did nothing, whatsoever, to facilitate this relationship with his folks. He didn't even introduce us or join them on their first trip. They wrote a card when Kiddo was born and I contacted them via email, and we just forged ahead from there despite the discomfort and weirdness.

F has visited 5 or 6 times now and we talk on the phone and email, etc. She has become part of our family and our relationship is easy. She has severed all contact with H, though, as he was so toxic to her.

H has done nothing. Zero, zip, nada except ride on others coattails. He has visited 3 times, and first 2 he came down with F in her car, on her money, with no input as to plans. The 3rd time he had his sister drive him down. He has never come down with his folks, though he has overlapped with them by one day, or come in a day or two after they have left. He calls every couple of months, talks about Kiddo only, and has sent two emails. Because he refuses to visit at the same time as his parents, but close, we had guests for 2 weeks instead of one, around the holidays which was stressful for me.

When he was planning to visit with his sister, he called and asked us if we would ask my dad to use his hotel points for a free room. We had stated from the beginning he/they could stay with us, but he didn't ask to stay with us. Asked us to have a third fucking party to give him free shit, but didn't ask if he could simply stay here. We thought this was ridiculous so didn't offer for him to stay here either, and told him we wouldn't ask my dad for his points. He had his sister pay for a hotel.

Anyway, about 4 months ago, we decided this years vacation would be to NC, where we could spend 2.5 days with F and her family in their home town, and 2.5 with H and his family in his parents home town (the two towns are about 4.5 hours apart). 4 more days are traveling to and from NC, as Kiddo can take about 7 hours in the car and that's it, so we can't drive straight through.

I sent an email to all, asking for input on dates and itineraries. I specifically told H he would need to go to his parents town if he wanted to spend more than a few hours with us, as where he lives is hours out of the way and we have a tight schedule. If he wanted us to go to his town, it would be for an afternoon only. F responded she needed to check her school schedule for Fall break. H's mom responded that as long as she had ample notice she could get time off. His parents invited us to stay in their home. F invited us stay with her, in her new home with her new fiance.

H responded with, approximately: That's 6 months away I can't really think about it. I probably can't go to my parents though. I'll just let you work me in whenever. I can either go to <F's home town> or you can come here to <my hometown>. Just let me know the dates and plans and we'll wing it

I responded that I was looking for input in order to make plans, that this was our only vacation and winging it is not an option with a toddler, and that I was giving him plenty of notice so he could make arrangements to get time off, or save money, or coordinate with his family to get to his parents. I completely ignored the self-invite to go to F's town.

So, we got the dates, set our itinerary and am working on our route, contacted H's folks and F, and they have all made plans for us. H's mom said he wouldn't commit to coming to her town. I had emailed him, but apparently he doesn't check it anymore. So I called him to discuss it. I asked if he would be going to his folks and he said "No I won't have the money". I said "Well then we can come to your town Sunday afternoon/evening and have dinner, and that's it". He asked "Well maybe you can make a hole in your schedule in F's town and I will come up there. I won't want to see F or anything though" I told him no, there would be no hole making in our time with F's family. These two days are for F's family, these two days with yours. You get Sunday evening, or two days at your folks. I wondered to myself how he could afford to go to F's town, but not his folks.

So when he called back last night, and got hubby, he was upset. He wants more time with Kiddo. He wants us to change our plans and itinerary to accommodate him. He fucking has had months to come up with something other than "wing it", and now wants to cry about it.

Gah.

[Ensign Steve]

H responded with, approximately: That's 6 months away I can't really think about it. I probably can't go to my parents though. I'll just let you work me in whenever. I can either go to <F's home town> or you can come here to <my hometown>. Just let me know the dates and plans and we'll wing it

I responded that I was looking for input in order to make plans, that this was our only vacation and winging it is not an option with a toddler, and that I was giving him plenty of notice so he could make arrangements to get time off, or save money, or coordinate with his family to get to his parents. I completely ignored the self-invite to go to F's town.


Shoving the weird bio-parentness aside, this is how I deal with this sort of wishy-washy bullshit.

"I will be at x location at y time. Be there or don't. End of story."

It's how I do all of my vacations and traveling itineraries. It's way easier than trying to organize everybody else's shit for them. If it's important enough to them, they'll show up. If not, they won't. Not my problem.

[LadyShea]

It's how I do all of my vacations and traveling itineraries. It's way easier than trying to organize everybody else's shit for them. If it's important enough to them, they'll show up. If not, they won't. Not my problem.

We have to sometimes accommodate people or whatever just because they're family or stupid or something...and as long as those accomodations aren't like unreasonable we have no problem.

It's the inconsiderateness of this person that offends me. We really don't go too much out of our way for him, he simply doesn't give back enough to bother...but he still boohoos and is all like he is. Just pisses me off.

That being said, Hubby is kinda "done" with this guy, and all plans with him are going to be based on our whims and conveniences, no accommodations.

[Ensign Steve]

It's how I do all of my vacations and traveling itineraries. It's way easier than trying to organize everybody else's shit for them. If it's important enough to them, they'll show up. If not, they won't. Not my problem.

We have to sometimes accommodate people or whatever just because they're family or stupid or something...and as long as those accomodations aren't like unreasonable we have no problem.
Fair enough. You've certainly done it for me enough times.

It's the inconsiderateness of this person that offends me. We really don't go too much out of our way for him, he simply doesn't give back enough to bother...but he still boohoos and is all like he is. Just pisses me off.
You gotta not let him (or anyone) have that kind of control over how you feel. Easier said than done, I know.

That being said, Hubby is kinda "done" with this guy, and all plans with him are going to be based on our whims and conveniences, no accommodations.
:cheer: Listen to your hubby, woman!

[Ensign Steve]

Wait. Did I just call myself stupid?

[LadyShea]

Wait. Did I just call myself stupid?

Nope, you called yourself family. And we haven't had to accomodate with you...we want to see ya

And don't worry about me regarding my feelings. He doesn't hurt me at all, he's not on my giving-enough-of-a-shit to be hurt list. He just pisses me off like my Grandma and my in-laws piss me off.

[LadyShea]

I've been reading up, and rather than a true narcissist, this guy may be passive-aggressive.

People diagnosed with the Negativistic (Passive-Aggressive) Personality Disorder resemble narcissists in some important respects. Despite the obstructive role they play, passive-aggressives feel unappreciated, underpaid, cheated, and misunderstood. They chronically complain, whine, carp, and criticize. They blame their failures and defeats on others, posing as martyrs and victims of a corrupt, inefficient, and heartless system (in other words, they have alloplastic defenses and an external locus of control).

[Plant Woman]

Whatever he is, it's good that you are not taken in by him. You would think that if he cares enough for his kid, that he would find a way to see him and be grateful for that time together. I bet he finds a way to do other things on a higher priority list.

Did his parents disown him?

[Ensign Steve]

Whatever he is, it's good that you are not taken in by him. You would think that if he cares enough for his kid, that he would find a way to see him and be grateful for that time together. I bet he finds a way to do other things on a higher priority list.

Did his parents disown him?

That's the thing...

[LadyShea]

No, his parents love him and want a relationship with him, and in my opinion also enable him to continue being a fuckup. They are so grateful when he throws them any scrap like a phone call or showing up for Christmas. But, he talks about them to others with disdain and contempt and disrespect (I truly expected ogres from the way he talked about them). They are very, very nice people, just weak.

I feel sorry for them on the one hand, but on the other I can't help feeling like maybe if they would quit coddling him and taking his bullshit he wouldn't be this bad. He is 28 for fuck's sake, hardly a kid anymore.

[Plant Woman]

I was wondering because he seems to want to avoid them. I know parents like that and it doesn't help a kid to grow up. He's 28? Sheesh! With everything you've said I thought he was just out of high school. Lucky for your child, he didn't keep him.

[LadyShea]

Lucky for your child, he didn't keep him.

Word. Also lucky F, even through her haze of dysfunctional love for the guy, saw clearly enough that he would be a shit father. She would have been a great mom...so it's bittersweet.

[LadyShea]

Update rant, feel free to ignore:

Hubby offered for the guy to meet us in Chattanooga, and he is doing so. We will see him Saturday.

He has lived with a girl, S, ever since F moved out on him. When we first met we had agreed that we didn't want either of them bringing the dude or chick du jour around Kiddo, and preferred only truly SO's be introduced to him. In the past, he told us in no uncertain terms that this was not a serious relationship and therefore she wouldn't be meeting Kiddo. She seems to think it's a serious relationship. His parents seem to think it's a serious relationship, but as he did with F he just keeps her hooked without committing...poor thing. Anyway, he didn't seem to get that I would prefer he have real, healthy relationships and would have felt better about things if he was madly in love with her...that would be a good thing.

So he calls F like 3 weeks ago and asks if it's okay with her if Kiddo meets this girl. She said "Well what do his parents think?" he responded "I'm sure they would tell me to ask you first". Um why would I do that? I guess they had a good talk or whatever, but he never did mention this to us, and never asked about bringing her along. Then, they ran into each other 2 weeks ago, and she was civil and they had a drink together. Suddenly he says "You need to get MY footprints back from <me and hubby>" (the footprint cards they make of newborns at the hospital). She had gotten us our own footprints, and him his own (which he threw in a drawer), and she has a set. We don't have HIS. Just weird.

So I guess she was stewing on that, and then drunk dialed him this week and bitched him out, doesn't remember it though. She called him to apologize and he was lamenting how he "Always falls short" and how he "doesn't have someone (me) informing him of Kiddos every move" or something. Every visit he asks "Do you want me to call more?" It's not about us wanker, do you think you need to call more in order to know Kiddo better? He also doesn't engage. His last visit, Kiddo asked him to play cars, and he responded "I don't know how to play cars, I'll just watch"...what special knowledge is involved in pushing a car on the floor and going "vroom"... So yes, he stood there and stared while Kiddo played. Kiddo did not even try to engage him after that.

Then he calls hubby and is all "What does Kiddo need", I guess to buy him presents. Hubby was like "He doesn't need anything, but if there is something special you want him to have, that would be awesome". He just kept going "But what does he want, what size does he wear, what types of books should I get him". In the past he has gotten him inappropriate DVDs, because he didn't note that Diego and Sesame Street are NOT Tom and Jerry and Scooby Doo...just all kids stuff to him. He did buy him some music that was good, but only after I told him exactly what Kiddo liked (Jimi Hendrix, go figure). He has also bought him a T-shirt. Nothing really meaningful to himself though, ya know.

So, finally Hubby is all "Did you have a favorite book or toy as a kid that you would like to share with him? How about a favorite movie? What's your favorite music? That would be great to say 'This was H's favorite story' or 'H loved playing with this' or 'H wanted you to hear this music'". Dead silence. He doesn't call enough to know anything about Kiddo, and he can't even figure out the smallest way to share himself. Nothing on which to build a relationship

:( I'm planning to tell him this weekend that Kiddo isn't going to magically and automatically love him and that if he wants a relationship he's going to have to give something of himself.

[One for Sorrow]

He obviously has no idea how to interact with kids. I commend you for trying to encourage the relationship, but it should really be all on him. It sounds like you've done far more than you should reasonably be expected to do already.

I hope for Kiddo's sake his birth father is more engaging this time around.

[Ensign Steve]

He obviously has no idea how to interact with kids.

Obviously. But a lot of people who don't have kids (or younger brothers or sisters or cousins) are in the same boat. Not that the guy isn't a total douche, but not knowing the difference between Diego, Tom and Jerry, and a hole in the ground is pretty standard for adults who don't spend time with kids.

[LadyShea]

Ya know, you guys are right. I think the guy's a waste of air so I tend not to cut him slack. Maybe he's just uncomfortable.

That being said, I still believe a college grad, and stoner of the stripe that watches Cartoon Network, should be able to tell the difference between educational shows and Tom and Jerry, and be able to follow the kids lead to roll cars on the floor or whatever...but maybe I am bit too much of a bitch as well.

I'll try to give him some benefit of the doubt this weekend.

[One for Sorrow]

He obviously has no idea how to interact with kids.

Obviously. But a lot of people who don't have kids (or younger brothers or sisters or cousins) are in the same boat. Not that the guy isn't a total douche, but not knowing the difference between Diego, Tom and Jerry, and a hole in the ground is pretty standard for adults who don't spend time with kids.

Well, yeah. I am actually in the same boat. I used to run away when people tried to hand me a baby (or run away from toddlers who ran toward me, haha) , so I'm not trying to totally disparage the guy (since that would make me a douche, too).

Hey! :glare:

I've gotten a little bit better since I now have a 6 year old sister and 1.5 year old brother, but since I see them so infrequently, not much better.

But, I've tried to make an effort. It's not clear to me that biodad has. Although, I guess, he has at least acknowledged that he's the biodad and has agreed to maintain contact, so that's something.