Vaccinations, anyone?

[freemonkey]

I found myself talking with a woman about my dog (who is in the middle of allergy desentization and getting shots every other day). This woman tells me that she doesn't believe in shots for her animals, or vaccinations for her pets and children, and that she "believes that living things do just fine the way the lord made them".

After telling her about the skin and systemic infections my dog gets when the allergies get out of hand, I explained that the allergy shots were intended to make her less sensitive to the things that were hurting her so, hopefully, she wouldn't need the antihistamines and steroids she was on anymore.

Then I thought "what about RABIES?" Sure enough, she doesn't get her pets vaccinated for rabies either. I asked, "Isn't it a law? How did you manage to get licenses for your dogs? Do your pets go outside? What about raccoons? Bats? Skunks?" She didn't care about any of that.

I know there are people out there who think that all vaccinations are scams, and there may be something to that thinking for some people in this century. But rabies?

[The Lone Ranger]

That strikes me as downright irresponsible. Fortunately, since most parents are more responsible, the chances that her kids will encounter something truly nasty are fairly slim.

People can be so utterly lousy at understanding basic probability! So, they worry about insignificant dangers and ignore far more serious threats.


Yes, there's a slim chance that the vaccination itself will make you sick, but if you're not vaccinated, your chances of contracting a much more serious case of the disease in question are greatly increased.

It's like those people who refuse to fly (because it's "unsafe") and so insist on driving everywhere. If two people elect to cross the country and John drives while Alice flies, John is probably at least a thousand times more likely to be killed in an automobile crash than Alice is to be killed in a plane crash.


Cheers,

Michael

[livius drusus]

Does she think her animals won't be exposed, freemonkey, or just that if it happens, so be it? What about bioterrorism chimeras and whatnot? Her kids would be the first to drop from smallpox in case that crappy show I saw on SciFi actually came to pass. :pardon?:

(Fun fact: I have two of those round smallpox vaccination scars on my left arm because apparently the first one wasn't done right so they had to try again. You can hardly see them anymore, but I was quite fascinated by them when I was a kid.)

[LadyShea]

Rabies is bad but not all that common. Parvo, OTOH, is a nasty painful disease, and can live in the ground for over a year just waiting to be picked up by a passing dog. If you got her name I would report her to animal control. It's irresponsible and cruel.

As for kids, did she fake vaccination certs? They aren't allowed to go to school without them.

Livius, they stopped those scarring vaccinations here in 1969, so I don't have one. Sorry you have 2!

[livius drusus]

Hmm... I wonder when they stopped them in Italy. My classmates were born in the '72 range and all the Italians had those scars. Oh well, it's not a big deal at all. I rather like them, truth be told. :)

[Godless Dave]

Rabies is bad but not all that common. Parvo, OTOH, is a nasty painful disease, and can live in the ground for over a year just waiting to be picked up by a passing dog. If you got her name I would report her to animal control. It's irresponsible and cruel.

And then there's distemper. In my state you have to provide proof of rabies vaccination if asked, and also to get a dog license. If her dog were to run away and Animal Control picked it up they could, theoretically, euthanize it immediately if there's no proof it was vaccinated. Cats aren't required to be licensed though (in my state).

As for kids, did she fake vaccination certs? They aren't allowed to go to school without them.

Depends on the state. My state allows you to get a religious exemption. Ridiculous, I know. There's been a cockamamie idea floating around for a while that vaccinations cause autism, and another one that the shots contain mercury.

Livius, they stopped those scarring vaccinations here in 1969, so I don't have one. Sorry you have 2!

I'm just young enough never to have been vaccinated for smallpox at all.

[freemonkey]

If you got her name I would report her to animal control. It's irresponsible and cruel.
I know her and, unfortunately, I don't like her. I'm thinking of asking a mutual friend if she knows if its true before I go calling any authorities, though.

I'm now curious to know if she's against all medicine, or only some things, like vaccines and flu shots.

Her husband is a chiropractor and has been manipul....., er... working on my friend for years with no permanent resolution to her hip problem.

[LadyShea]

Freemonkey, look up the dog licensing requirements for your county or city before calling anyone. Do her dogs run loose?

[TomJoe]

There's been a cockamamie idea floating around for a while that vaccinations cause autism, and another one that the shots contain mercury.

Some vaccines have been shown to cause autoimmune diseases. Also, not every vaccine is 100% effective and 100% safe. There are slight risks with just about every vaccine... some of which can result in death from side-effects. So, while the chance might be 1 in 100,000 (or higher) of a side-effect, you probably wouldn't be so keen on those odds if it happens that your child is the 1.

Also, some vaccines do (http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm) have trace amounts of mercury in them, but the JAMA has reported that the amounts of mercury contained in these vaccines is minimal and do not result in any adverse reactions.

[Roland98]

Some vaccines have been shown to cause autoimmune diseases.

Which are you thinking of here?

Also, not every vaccine is 100% effective and 100% safe. There are slight risks with just about every vaccine... some of which can result in death from side-effects. So, while the chance might be 1 in 100,000 (or higher) of a side-effect, you probably wouldn't be so keen on those odds if it happens that your child is the 1.

But this risk applies to everything. The chances of dying in a car crash are much higher, yet people still drive. My children are at much higher risk of death or injury from playing T-ball than from vaccination. I never understood this logic.

Also, some vaccines do (http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm) have trace amounts of mercury in them, but the JAMA has reported that the amounts of mercury contained in these vaccines is minimal and do not result in any adverse reactions.

It's technically correct, but a bit misleading to say "they have mercury in them." This makes people think of the silver stuff in thermometers. What they had (as in, past tense) in them is thimerosal, which is a mercury-containing compound (ethylmercury--not to be confused with methylmercury, a neurotoxin and the one you may ingest from seafood). Thimerosal has been phased out of all childhood vaccinations; I believe it is still present in the killed flu vaccine, but doses with very low levels of thimerosal are available for children.


I'm now curious to know if she's against all medicine, or only some things, like vaccines and flu shots.

In my experience, most of the people who are anti-vaccine are all to happy to take the other miracles of modern medicine. A bit ironic, since vaccination is really only mimicking a natural infection you may get anyway (granted, the organisms have been manipulated a bit, but the immune response is natural), while many drugs work to stop your body from going about its "natural" function.

I'd also look into reporting her. That woman may not be concerned about those diseases, but there's a reason vaccinations are required--it protects everyone's health, not only that woman or her dogs. In the unlikely event of a rabid animal in the area, her dog needs to be vaccinated to protect anyone it may be exposed to. I wonder how she'd feel in a worst case scenario--her dog got rabies, and bit a child or something. :(

[godfry n. glad]

In my experience, most of the people who are anti-vaccine are all to happy to take the other miracles of modern medicine. A bit ironic, since vaccination is really only mimicking a natural infection you may get anyway (granted, the organisms have been manipulated a bit, but the immune response is natural), while many drugs work to stop your body from going about its "natural" function.

I'd also look into reporting her. That woman may not be concerned about those diseases, but there's a reason vaccinations are required--it protects everyone's health, not only that woman or her dogs. In the unlikely event of a rabid animal in the area, her dog needs to be vaccinated to protect anyone it may be exposed to. I wonder how she'd feel in a worst case scenario--her dog got rabies, and bit a child or something. :(

Yo... Indeed.

I'm no opponent of vaccinations, but there are minimal risks. The one vaccination I have a problem with is this annual cattle-call for influenza vaccinations.

First, influenza, as I understand it, is a viral disease. The vaccine developed for the flu is based upon the strain of influenza which most recently affected this country. The thing is, viruses reproduce quickly and, as a result, mutate quickly, often resulting in a viral infection that does not respond to the antibodies created for the previous low-level influenza epidemic. So, it's my understanding that a flu shot will protect you from last year's flu, if you have not had it and for some reason, and become exposed to it, but it is highly unlikely that the vaccine will protect you from whatever new strain of influenza virus is spreading in this year's low-level influenza epidemic.

Roland can feel free to beat me about the head and shoulders for my mistaken impertience...or not.

Also, I suspect if your interlocutor's dog was to bite another person, she could be charged with battery with a deadly weapon, a felony, because she willfully failed to protect others from her poor judgement.

godfry

[Godless Dave]

I once got into a child vaccination debate with a luddite on Democratic Underground who brought up the point that her children weren't likely to catch those diseases from other kids because all the other kids were vaccinated.

[TomJoe]

Some vaccines have been shown to cause autoimmune diseases.

Which are you thinking of here?


Off the top of my head, the Hepatitis B vaccine.

Also, not every vaccine is 100% effective and 100% safe. There are slight risks with just about every vaccine... some of which can result in death from side-effects. So, while the chance might be 1 in 100,000 (or higher) of a side-effect, you probably wouldn't be so keen on those odds if it happens that your child is the 1.

But this risk applies to everything. The chances of dying in a car crash are much higher, yet people still drive. My children are at much higher risk of death or injury from playing T-ball than from vaccination. I never understood this logic.

Yes, this risk applies to everything, but when we're especially dealing with newborns, and brand spanking new parents... those risks may seem accentuated. I'm not saying that they're valid lines of thinking... I have friends who believe in the "herd mentality" when it comes to vaccinations (ie: if everyone in my child's class is vaccinated, my child doesn't need to get the vaccination because no one else will be able to pass the disease to him)... and it drives me up the wall when they talk about it. They have five kids... you should have seen that house when one came down with whooping cough.

...vaccination is really only mimicking a natural infection you may get anyway...

Which is debateable. When you're given a concentrated bolus of killed bacterium, it doesn't really mimic a natural infection. It sure as heck stimulates the immune system, but it doesn't mimic natural infection. Neither is giving someone a recombinant vaccine. Typically the dose is way over that which would have occurred naturally as well. The closest one can come to mimicking a natural infection is giving an attenuated vaccine, and in that instance, the bacteria/virus is rendered incapable of causing natural infection, so something, somewhere is inhibited. It comes close, but not quite.

[Roland98]

First, influenza, as I understand it, is a viral disease. The vaccine developed for the flu is based upon the strain of influenza which most recently affected this country.

Not quite. Influenza is a world-wide disease, so it's not based only on what's circulating in America, but what they predict will be circulating worldwide the following year based on trends. The World Health Organization (WHO) actually does the work.

The thing is, viruses reproduce quickly and, as a result, mutate quickly, often resulting in a viral infection that does not respond to the antibodies created for the previous low-level influenza epidemic. So, it's my understanding that a flu shot will protect you from last year's flu, if you have not had it and for some reason, and become exposed to it, but it is highly unlikely that the vaccine will protect you from whatever new strain of influenza virus is spreading in this year's low-level influenza epidemic.

Not quite. Yes, they mutate quickly, but this is taken into account when designing the vaccine (and most of the mutations are minor and do not affect vaccine efficacy). What we sometimes miss is a strain that's circulating that, at the time the vaccine formulation is made, was a minor player, but for whatever reason, becomes a larger problem in the time between vaccine design and implementation. This is what happened last year, making the vaccine less effective (since that strain ended up being a major cause of illness, and was left out of the vaccine). It's in there this year, not only because it was important last year, but because it's still circulating in the population at fairly high levels. Had it come out last year but then not been seen again since, it probably would not have been included in this year's formulation.

Roland can feel free to beat me about the head and shoulders for my mistaken impertience...or not.

Head and shoulders? That's not where a self-identified jackass should receive a beating... ;)

[Roland98]

Off the top of my head, the Hepatitis B vaccine.

And which autoimmune disease...? I know of a lot of antecdotal stories but I'm not aware of any studies that have shown this to cause autoimmune disease.

Yes, this risk applies to everything, but when we're especially dealing with newborns, and brand spanking new parents... those risks may seem accentuated. I'm not saying that they're valid lines of thinking... I have friends who believe in the "herd mentality" when it comes to vaccinations (ie: if everyone in my child's class is vaccinated, my child doesn't need to get the vaccination because no one else will be able to pass the disease to him)... and it drives me up the wall when they talk about it. They have five kids... you should have seen that house when one came down with whooping cough.

I'm still not getting this. The kid is still more at risk on the car ride home than from getting a vaccine. If one is going to obsess about risks, they should do it equally.


Which is debateable. When you're given a concentrated bolus of killed bacterium, it doesn't really mimic a natural infection. It sure as heck stimulates the immune system, but it doesn't mimic natural infection.

True, the route of infection, dose, and treatment of the pathogen may differ from what you'd get naturally, but that's why it's a mimic: to resemble closely. Obviously it's not exactly the same as a natural infection, but the body is exposed to the same antigens and responds in a similar manner.

Neither is giving someone a recombinant vaccine.

Which I mentioned when I said they'd been manipulated.

Typically the dose is way over that which would have occurred naturally as well. The closest one can come to mimicking a natural infection is giving an attenuated vaccine, and in that instance, the bacteria/virus is rendered incapable of causing natural infection, so something, somewhere is inhibited. It comes close, but not quite.

Not quite. Attenuated pathogens can cause infection (one reason we like them is because they're able to replicate in the host), they simply don't cause disease.

[Roland98]

I once got into a child vaccination debate with a luddite on Democratic Underground who brought up the point that her children weren't likely to catch those diseases from other kids because all the other kids were vaccinated.

Yeah, this works until everyone in the community has that attitude. There have been outbreaks of measles and whooping cough recently because the herd immunity dropped below the threshold needed to prevent epidemic spread, since everyone had the same "let the other kids take the risk" attitude.

[freemonkey]

That woman may not be concerned about those diseases, but there's a reason vaccinations are required--it protects everyone's health, not only that woman or her dogs. In the unlikely event of a rabid animal in the area, her dog needs to be vaccinated to protect anyone it may be exposed to. I wonder how she'd feel in a worst case scenario--her dog got rabies, and bit a child or something. :(
Not only that, but if her dog bit anyone and she couldn't produce rabies vaccination proof, her dog would be killed to determine whether rabies was present, wouldn't it?

Also, thanks for all the great info!

[godfry n. glad]

Not only that, but if her dog bit anyone and she couldn't produce rabies vaccination proof, her dog would be killed to determine whether rabies was present, wouldn't it?


Yes. And...in some places, she could be charged with assault and battery with a deadly weapon if it was known she willfully did not vaccinate the animal against rabies.

[LadyShea]

Not only that, but if her dog bit anyone and she couldn't produce rabies vaccination proof, her dog would be killed to determine whether rabies was present, wouldn't it?

Also, thanks for all the great info!

Depends on the state. In Nevada, if proof of rabies vaccination cannot be produced, the dog is quarantined for 10 days either at the pound or at a licesnsed vets office to see if it is infected.