Martial arts and kids

[LadyShea]

Okay, I know little, personally, about Martial Arts, so if I use incorrect terms or whatever please forgive me. Some things that have struck me in the past, about martial artists I met, is their quiet, calm confidence (not arrogance), self discipline, and respect for themselves and others. I was told this is part of the training. Because of this I had been planning to get Kiddo into martial arts eventually.

I just found out my 10 yo nephew got his black belt in tae kwon do this weekend...and he's a rotten little shit. Seriously disrespectful, overly competitive, and generally unpleasant (in my opinion only...other family members adore him. I think he's a little sociopath).

My friend's boyfriend is a blackbelt in Brazilian jujitzu, does UFC something, and owns a gym...yet is very self conscious about a leg he injured in an accident to the point of drawing attention to it (I wouldn't have noticed the damn thing).

Do they not teach the mental aspects anymore, or are these people anomalies?

I wonder if many classes are treating it as a competitive sport rather than an "art" these days.

[Julie]

Anyplace that will give a 10 year old a blackbelt is only interested in taking peoples money...there is NO WAY a 10 year old can earn a black belt. Unfortunatly there are many martial arts places that are just in it for the money, or are competitive to the extreme. You have to call around and ask questions, talk to people near you and find what is recommended.

There is one place near us that guaranteed my kids a new belt colour every 3 MONTHS...which coincidently coincided with the payment schedule. They were quickly taken off my list. I've found a place where the kids earn their belts when they have achieved them, that isn't competitive and is all about teaching that self control and respect.

[Dingfod]

There was a news story here in Tulsa about kids being taught Mixed Martial Arts (http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=8420811), a very brutal bloody "sport".

[LadyShea]

He had to do forms, and fight (correct term?) 8 others, and break a bunch of boards. Sounds like a grueling test actually, and I give the kid credit for that...it took time and dedication to get there. Doesn't make him less of a shit, but he stuck to it for years. Aren't the "belt" tests administered under some kind of standard parameters?

Shit, I know even less than I thought I knew. We don't have a choice here, there is one center in town.

[Ensign Steve]

My sister and her daughter are both trained in tae kwon do. Sister (my age) has been doing it since she was a little kid, and has been a black belt for years. She got her daughter (now 12 - too young for a black belt, which she does not have) into it as soon as she was old enough. They're both really physically fit, and I think that's one of their main reasons for doing it, besides that it's fun.

Edit: They are also both pretty decent people. I think they would have been anyway, but her sensei was a mentor to my sister and helped her take pride in her work and to finish high school, so there's definitely some good discipline or what not involved.

[LadyShea]

My sister and her daughter are both trained in tae kwon do. Sister (my age) has been doing it since she was a little kid, and has been a black belt for years. She got her daughter (now 12 - too young for a black belt, which she does not have) into it as soon as she was old enough. They're both really physically fit, and I think that's one of their main reasons for doing it, besides that it's fun.

I think any physical activity/sport is a good thing, and will allow him to do/try whatever he wants. The ultra competitiveness is inherent to may sports though, which bothers me personally, but I know to expect it in football for example.

I really want him to have the opportunity to learn the art, or whatever it is, that leads to the respectful self assurance I have noted in others. Something less about winning and more about living. I want to get him surfing lessons for the same reason...surfers (that do it for themselves and not as a competitive thing) seem to know themselves well, and credit surfing as the source or some shit.

Gawd I sound all woo-woo, hopefully you know what I mean.

[Ensign Steve]

There's nothing woo woo about physical and mental strength and discipline. :nope:

[Dingfod]

Some martial arts instructors are a bit woo-woo, touting Chi and other nonsense.

[BDS]

My favorite martial arts are wrestling, boxing, and shooting. Poking with sharp sticks is fun, too.

It only makes sense to me that ANY martial art will tend to attract aggressive, competitive people who like beating other people up. If people just wanted fun and exercise, they'd be playing soccer or frisbee. It is true that martial arts teachers trying to sell their courses blather on about mental discipline -- but so do basketball and football coaches. Why should martial arts build character more effectively than team sports? It seems to me that team sports (in general) are better than individual sports at teaching kids social skills.

[Smilin]

I studied Wado-Ryu for about a year before I left for the navy, when I was barely 18...lesseee...that would be about...ummmm....:embarrassed: 24 years ago...HOLY SHIT I'M OLD!.....was committed, dedicated and determined to make it to the blue belt mark, which I did. I ALSO noticed, however, that other students progression WASN'T rated upon progress and skill level.....and was mysteriously tied to their payment schedule as has already been brought up by Julie.

When it comes down to it...the almighty dollar (Euro) is the only thing almighty in this world...............

[LadyShea]

My favorite martial arts are wrestling, boxing, and shooting. Poking with sharp sticks is fun, too.

It only makes sense to me that ANY martial art will tend to attract aggressive, competitive people who like beating other people up. If people just wanted fun and exercise, they'd be playing soccer or frisbee. It is true that martial arts teachers trying to sell their courses blather on about mental discipline -- but so do basketball and football coaches. Why should martial arts build character more effectively than team sports? It seems to me that team sports (in general) are better than individual sports at teaching kids social skills.


K see here's where I get confused. I have talked to so many who stated that martial arts aren't about beating people up at all. I guess I have to qualify, as per my lack of knowledge. I mean karate, tae kwon do, king fu etc. not boxing or shooting

Basketball and football coaches all seem to only blather on about winning in my experience

[Smilin]

Basketball and football coaches all seem to only blather on about winning in my experience

That was the goal while I was coaching my oldest son's baseball teams....

bragging rights!:popcorn:

[BDS]

The people who say martial arts aren't about beating people up are lying to you, LadyShea. Come on! Martial arts teach people how to kick, punch, twist, and eye gouge.

Of course it is true that part of the credo is, "It's only for self defense, and confidence." Or, "We teach mental discipline." OK. Maybe the sensei should stick to the mental discipline, and stop teaching the punching, chopping, kicking (wasn't that once considered "dirty fighting"?) and eye gouging. It's just not credible that a sport in which one learns to beat people up (and learns nothing OTHER than that, aside from, perhaps, a little woo-woo Eastern mystic stuff) is not "about" beating people up.

By the way, I have nothing against the martial arts -- whether mystical Eastern arts, or boxing and wrestling. But I try to be realistic about them.

You haven't hung out with many basketball or football coaches, or you'd know the truth. They yammer on constantly about "building character", "teaching discipline", and generating "productive citizens". It's all silly, of course, but no more silly than martial arts teachers claiming their classes have nothing to do with beating people up.

[The Lone Ranger]

Not all martial arts involve "beating people up."

Most modern Asian martial arts are very-much about teaching self-discipline. The idea is that in learning to master these difficult and demanding techniques, you learn to master yourself. And, in addition, some of the techniques may be useful should you ever need to defend yourself against an attacker.


That having been said, few American martial-arts instructors really embrace that attitude. My first kendo sensei was native-born Japanese, and he frequently told me that he was appalled at how the martial arts are usually taught here in the U.S.

So, the first thing to do is visit the dojo, watch a few practice sessions, and talk with the sensei and the students. If they're talking about learning how to be a good fighter, that's probably not the place to go. If they're talking about "chi" and how it will supposedly allow you to do all sorts of ridiculous things -- run.

If they're talking about discipline and respect for others and being a good citizen, then you've perhaps found a good place.


There are a number of martial-arts disciplines that have nothing whatsoever with "beating people up." For example, kendo involves sparring, but both combatants are wearing armour and nobody gets hurt. You can't very well master the use of a sword if you don't practice against an opponent, after all, but there's no punching, no kicking, no throwing, and no grappling. And kendo, more than most modern martial arts techniques, stresses strict attention to self-improvement and self-discipline. That's because no one really needs to know how to use a sword for self-defense, so the art is taught as a means of self-improvement, without any baggage about how it might be used to defend yourself against an attacker. [Of course, I'm a very dangerous person with a sword, but I think it's rather unlikely that I'll ever find myself having to defend myself against attackers armed with swords.]

Iaido is another sword-oriented martial art, but it doesn't even involve sparring with live partners, so it's even less combat-oriented, if that's possible. It's all about learning self-discipline through careful attention to technique.

Aikido involves "sparring" with partners, but unlike karate or jujitsu, for example, stresses learning to defend oneself without harming one's opponent. So aikido doesn't involve punching or kicking one's opponent, but rather redirection of his movement and learning how to use joint locks to immobilize him without hurting him.



I should point out, by the way, that most modern Japanese martial arts are seen primarily as means of learning self-discipline, not as truly practical fighting techniques. In Japan, anyway. Quite a lot of Americans, on the other hand, have a grossly mistaken view of what they're about. It doesn't help that many martial artists grossly overestimate the effectiveness of their techniques in real-world applications. (A street punk who's trying to hurt you, unlike your sensei, will not carefully adjust his grip so as to allow you to throw him without getting injured in the process.)

Many a karate-ka or judo-ka has thought that his training made him all but invincible and so developed a superior and very arrogant attitude. Most of the Japanese martial artists I've known have been downright disgusted by such people. Such a person is likely to get a very nasty surprise if he picks a fight with some street fighter who doesn't "play by the rules."


If one truly wants to learn self-defense, I'd recommend finding a place that teaches Krav Magna or some such.


As an aside, what martial arts discipline teaches eye-gouging as a legitimate sparring technique? Every dojo I've had anything to do with would consider something like that to be grounds for instant dismissal.

As a means of defending yourself against an attacker who's seriously trying to hurt or kill you, yes. That's the point, as my karate sensei once told me; if you're attacked and that person's trying to rape or kill you -- you fight dirty. You disable him or her as quickly as possible -- and then you run. A real life-or-death situation is nothing at all like a formal sparring match.

Cheers,

Michael

[BDS]

OK, I admit that I was just kidding about the eye-gouging. Still, the notion that "teaching self-discipline" is somehow best accomplished by teaching kicking, arm-twisting, and smashing blocks of concrete seems silly. Why would it be? Why couldn't -- well -- any other physical endeavor teach "self-discipline" equally well?

And if any other endeavor CAN teach self-discipline equally well as a martial art, why practice martial arts if one wants to learn self discipline, but doesn't want to improve one's fighting ability?

Actually, as I said to LadyShea, practically every other sport claims to teach "self-discipline" -- just like martial arts do. No doubt, martial arts have a whiff of Eastern mysticism lacking in tackle football, and to those attracted to an exotic or mystical form of self-discipline they may be an attractive alternative. Nonetheless, I don't see why long distance running, or competitive swimming, or tennis, or baseball, or, indeed, boxing, wrestling or fencing (to name some Western martial arts) can't teach "self-discipline" just as well as karate or aikido.

I'll further admit two things: first, I'm not an expert on any Eastern martial arts, and second, I don't really know how, exactly, the self-disciplinary techniques taught by some martial artists differ from those taught be boxing trainers, fencing instructors, and hockey coaches. Maybe they really are superior. If they are, however, it does not seem credible that their superiority is intrinsic to their use as a method of teaching fighting. In other words, I can't believe that IF martial arts instructors have better methods and techniques of teaching self-discipline than hockey coaches, the hockey coaches couldn't learn those techniques, and use them to teach hockey players.

I do think martial arts ONCE had a seriousness about them lacking in other sports. Skill was a matter of life and death (this was true for Christian Knights, as well as for Eastern Samurai). So discipline was essential to a greater extent than it is in ping pong. I'll also agree that self-discipline is perhaps best learned when striving for some OTHER goal (a black belt, or a state wrestling championship) rather than when striving to learn self-discipline. "He who would find himself must lose himself..." as it says somewhere in the Bible, I think. Nonetheless, I can't think of any intrinsic reason why martial arts should be better at teaching self-discipline than any other sport. My guess is that the techniques (which doubtless vary dramatically) by which martial arts teach self-discipline work better than those by which football coaches teach self-discipline for some students, and worse for others.

[Aerik]

Martial arts are rather bastardized. Nearly all martial arts teaching businesses have failed to reject the woo-woo that comes with the history of many martial arts, and on top of that, with the increase in UFC fanship and memborship, we can see a recent trend in escalating the violence. It's no coincidence that the UFC is heavily associated with Spike TV, a "masculine" oriented cable channel that prides itself as a response to the rest of televised media as too feminized, as if all the rape jokes and wife jokes in the world are hurting men instead of women.

If you want an idea of just how smart these guys are, in one season of the "Ultimate Fighter" tv show, one of the coaches handed out bibles to his team and asked them to read them and tell him what character he is from the bible, in their eyes.

Yes, and like all other athletes, only god made it all possible. Funny how they can credit god for their success one moment, but if somebody else criticizes a match one by sheer luck (such as a previous injury in the opponent), they become violently angry for not stroking their ego.

I took Tae Kwon Do as a child. There were 6-year-old black belts, and black belts that went on to commit violent felonies. That says a lot about the ethical discipline required to gain rank. Julie cites a 3-month advancement rate. Mine was 2 months. What's the requirement? You break a board, one sparring match, and one performed routine. Yay, you got your belt kid. Allegedly the black belts took a written test involving the philosophies of the AKTA, but clearly there's no barriers against obvious disingenuosity.

The half-yearly competitions at the community college were known for (probably still are) incessant violent encounters between students of different "dojos" in the outside break area. But I never heard any punishments or lectures given either to prevent them or to penalize them.

As dingfod poitns out, many teachers proliferate all kinds of woo. Qi, Qi-dong, chi, energy, whatever they want to call it, it deludes the students to the point where they're less prepared for the world when they graudate highschool and leave town.

And as BDS points out, if the practitionors of martial arts claim that it's about self discipline and mental clarity do not see it as their responsibility to enforce it in their students, they're just lying.

[The Lone Ranger]

OK, I admit that I was just kidding about the eye-gouging. Still, the notion that "teaching self-discipline" is somehow best accomplished by teaching kicking, arm-twisting, and smashing blocks of concrete seems silly. Why would it be? Why couldn't -- well -- any other physical endeavor teach "self-discipline" equally well?
I'm unaware that anyone claimed that the martial arts are the best way to learn self-discipline.

In Japan, at least, a master of the Tea Ceremony is regarded with the same degree of respect as is a master karate-ka. Why? Because the Tea Ceremony involves a number of intricate steps that must be performed in precisely the proper order and manner; it takes years of dedicated practice to master them. Therefore, mastering the Tea Ceremony involves just as much self-discipline as does mastering a martial art.

That probably seems strange to most Westerners, but the point is to learn to discipline oneself through mastery of some particular skill set that can only be accomplished through years of dedicated practice. How is almost irrelevant. It could be through mastery of the Tea Ceremony, flower arrangement, karate, or whatever.


And if any other endeavor CAN teach self-discipline equally well as a martial art, why practice martial arts if one wants to learn self discipline, but doesn't want to improve one's fighting ability?
Again, I'm unaware that anyone ever said that martial arts are the only or even the best way to learn self-discipline.

Having said that, the hard physical exercise that's a necessary component of any martial arts discipline may be conducive to learning self-discipline for some. At the very least, it's good exercise. So is dancing, and it's no less demanding of self-discipline if one wants to be a master ballerina, for instance.

I've trained mostly with native Asian instructors, and the one thing that is considered absolutely central is learning to discipline oneself. That includes disciplining one's behavior toward others. As such, any remotely disrespectful or discourteous behavior is instantly punished. Indeed, if you break it down, I'm sure I've spent much more time in the kendo dojo practicing rei (courtesy) than sword techniques. Sadly, most American martial-arts schools don't seem to stress that more "philosophical" aspect, and instead focus on "fighting" techniques.


Nonetheless, I don't see why long distance running, or competitive swimming, or tennis, or baseball, or, indeed, boxing, wrestling or fencing (to name some Western martial arts) can't teach "self-discipline" just as well as karate or aikido.
And again, I'm unaware that anyone has said that they can't. One difference is that most Asian martial arts consider self-discipline to be a major reason -- indeed, perhaps the reason -- to learn the art. None of my Asian senseis have ever tried to claim that the main point of learning either karate or especially kendo was for self-defense, though that might be a practical side-benefit in the case of karate.

Most American dojos, in my experience, don't have that attitude, however.

While many football, boxing, etc. instructors argue that learning the sport can be a means of learning self-discipline and self-confidence (and I don't disagree), the focus seems to be far more on winning than on self-improvement. Doubtless there are some Little League coaches out there who sincerely stress to their kids that it's not about winning or losing, but about learning to be good sports, learning to discipline oneself, and about learning to treat your opponents as people worthy of respect. I suspect they're in the minority, however.

But then, as I've repeatedly said, I think that, at least here in the U.S., martial arts instructors who're more interested in teaching you to be better people -- as opposed to more competent fighters -- are probably in the minority, too. And that's something most of my Asian colleagues have been disgusted to learn.


I don't really know how, exactly, the self-disciplinary techniques taught by some martial artists differ from those taught be boxing trainers, fencing instructors, and hockey coaches.
My first (very American) fencing instructor strongly emphasized that the purpose of learning to fence was to learn self-discipline. He also placed a very high emphasis on always behaving with honor, and made sure that we always carefully followed all the rules of proper etiquette and always behaved respectfully towards others. He always stressed (and I don't doubt that he was serious) that any disrespectful or discourteous behavior would result in immediate expulsion.


In other words, I can't believe that IF martial arts instructors have better methods and techniques of teaching self-discipline than hockey coaches, the hockey coaches couldn't learn those techniques, and use them to teach hockey players.
In Japan, in particular, the martial arts have survived precisely because their emphasis on strict attention to etiquette and self-discipline were seen as positives. After the Meiji Restoration, no one was so foolish as to pretend that learning how to use a sword or to fight with the bare hands was truly important in modern society, except as a useful way of instilling self-discipline.


Most martial arts were banned in Japan during the Meiji Restoration. They were reinstated specifically as a means of teaching self-discipline and good citizenship through rigorous and demanding physical exercises.

It's odd, because I've seldom met any Asian martial artist who bought into anything about "chi," but I've met a number of Americans who do. I suspect that most of the nonsense you hear about it comes from Westerners who have badly misunderstood what it's about. For instance, "ki" is an important part of kendo, but it roughly translates as "spirit." That is, it's considered important to always show a "good ki" -- that is, a positive and enthusiastic attitude. Mysticism or "energy fields" or whatever has exactly zero to do with it.




As such, if hockey coaches teach their students that they must always treat their opponents with courtesy and respect, and that it's not about whether you win or lose, but that you always do your best, I don't see any reason at all why hockey (for example) couldn't be every bit as effective in making one a better citizen. The only difference, so far as I'm aware, is that this is an essential part of the entire raison d'etre for the existence of modern martial arts, but not of modern hockey.

Cheers,

Michael


ETA: In teaching kendo, one thing that I've always stressed to my students is that it's very difficult -- and it is. The reason we learn kendo is because it takes years of dedicated practice to be good at it. It isn't because it's useful.

Self-confidence can't be granted by others. It comes from the knowledge that you've mastered something that's truly difficult. That's one of the things I've always stressed to my students.

I'd be the last person to argue that martial arts are necessarily the best way to learn self-confidence, however.

[LadyShea]

TLR was one of the people I was talking about. The calm confidence and such. I have met others like him, I am not listening to people trying to sell me something. I have also never seen a UFC match, but I have recently heard about this, and perhaps its part and parcel to the issue. Where is Mr. Myagi's "wax on, wax off" these days?

Fencing is interesting to me as well...I don't know if it will appeal to my kid.

Maybe it's all my problem. I just don't see the mastery of one's body and mind needed when a hockey player is body slamming an opponent into the glass, or when a bunch of beefy men tackle their opponents in football. I have seen and heard of coaches berating and tearing down their players, not building them up....this may be not be the case mostly.

I never played competitive team sports myself, I was a gymnast and swimmer as a kid (but not competitively), so I don't have a lot of direct experience with most sports....I also don't like competition in general. I want to learn things and do well for my own betterment, not necessarily to "win".

[Aerik]

You.. placed your reply in the wrong place, I think, based on what text you quoted...

[Doctor X]

Anyplace that will give a 10 year old a blackbelt is only interested in taking peoples money...there is NO WAY a 10 year old can earn a black belt.

Judo is nice and inexpensive. Great for kids.

--J.D.

[Caligulette]

The soon-to-be-ex Mr Caligulette (what will I call him when it's all done?) is big into Ba Gua and Tai Chi. Here is what I know:

Many teachers are crazy. Just downright nuts. He has been with a number of teachers (3 over 20 years) and two of them were bona fide nuts. Friendly to me, but brutal in what they demanded of their students ("build me a school"). Not like in the movies, where there's a point to it, more like in real life, where the point is to get whatever you can out of people while doling out as little training as possible.

The crazy ones were deeply into the woo. (So is Mr Caligulette, so it was a fair match, but whatever his problems, Mr C is not crazed.) The non-crazed were knowledgeable about the woo, but not obsessed with it.

"Martial" means it does have practical martial applications.

The arts can be taught in a way which emphasises respect and whatnot, or the kid could get a new belt every three months. It depends on the teacher. Investigating is very important.

[Doctor X]

"Martial" means it does have practical martial applications.

Unfortunately, little of them do.

. . . kid could get a new belt every three months. It depends on the teacher. Investigating is very important.

Belts are a money-making device: you have "tests" and the like which all cost fees. Really pathetic.

--J.D.

[Sock Puppet]

Do they not teach the mental aspects anymore, or are these people anomalies?They're not anomalies, and are probably the norm these days. However, there are still some great teachers out there. It does take some looking. Also, don't let anybody tell you that a particular style is "best" for what you're interested in finding. From my experience, just about any style will have some good teachers and some that are absolute crap.

I wonder if many classes are treating it as a competitive sport rather than an "art" these days.Yes, many are. You can generally tell from the front window. If it's loaded with trophies, it's probably a school more interested in competitions than in less tangible rewards for its students. There are exceptions here, too -- sometimes a teacher feels compelled to display trophies even when he's not particularly interested in them -- but by and large it's a good indicator.

Aren't the "belt" tests administered under some kind of standard parameters?Not at all. In fact, most "belt" systems are modern contrivances anyway, and can vary wildly from school to school. Traditional Chinese martial arts, e.g., don't use them at all. A "black belt" can mean anything from an experienced student who trained like hell for years to earn it, to a punk kid whose parents paid his school fees regularly enough, who couldn't fight his way out of the proverbial wet paper bag.

Shit, I know even less than I thought I knew. We don't have a choice here, there is one center in town.You may have more choices than you realize. A lot of instructors teach on a private basis, often out of their own homes. You're not necessarily stuck with the one entry for "martial arts" in the local phone book. I'm not sure how you'd find someone without knowing any martial artists in the area for referrals, but now that it's on your mind you might meet somebody at a social gathering who can give you leads.

Finally, I personally wouldn't run screaming from any instructor who spouts a little woo-woo. Sure, if they think you can levitate or set fires with your "qi," I would say buh-bye, but just because an instructor mentions concepts from traditional asian medicine or martial arts, it doesn't mean he couldn't be an excellent teacher. The best instructor I ever had entertained a few charming superstitions, but he also taught fantastic technique and discipline.

[LadyShea]

Self-confidence can't be granted by others. It comes from the knowledge that you've mastered something that's truly difficult.

Thank you, this is an important point. I have often felt that many parents are NOT doing their kids any favors with constant, often fake, praise for every little thing. It's as if they believe they can give (or in some cases buy) their kids a sense of accomplishment.

I can certainly offer Kiddo plenty of opportunities to find the thing(s) he is interested in mastering, and encourage him...but I don't want him to do things just to receive praise or prizes...it's shallow and doesn't have the lasting effects of truly knowing what you can do.

[Smilin]

Belts are a money-making device: you have "tests" and the like which all cost fees. Really pathetic.

--J.D.

Yes....good point. I had totally forgotten about that little tid-bit of information. When I was participating (and competing) their were all those hidden fees....

Sparring equipment, belt-testing fees just to name two....

[BDS]

I recognize that I was not arguing against you, Lone Ranger, but against a pop conception of martial arts, distilled from Kung Fu movies and talking to people like Mr. Caligulette. The extent to which these conceptions mirror reality is problematic. Nonetheless, where there's smoke, there's sometimes fire.

To Lady Shea: any athletic sport takes "mastery of one's body and mind" - hockey no less than martial arts. In fact, if anything complicated team sports like hockey are MORE complex mentally than individual sports, because they involve not only thinking about oneself and one's opponent (as in individual sports), but about one's teammates, as well. They add another dimension.

ON martial arts: I admit I'm prejudiced against them, and my prejudice is based on a couple of things:

1) I hate authoritarian coaching. Of course, fascist, authoritarian coaches are common in any sport. If sport is a sort of quasi-military training for young people (as is obvious in martial arts, and less obvious in other sports), this may make sense. Nonetheless, it's obnoxious. Unfortunately, the cult of the authoritarian coach has been elevated to woo-woo status in the martial arts (at least based on movies, stories, etc., if not in reality). I remember another discussion with Lone Ranger, in which he recounted a story about how a sensei attacked his pupil randomly, even while the student was sleeping. The sensei, apparently, wanted to instill constant preparedness in the student, and the "moral" of the story is "teacher always knows best, and students should accept whatever their teacher thinks is best for them without question." ONe need only watch any of dozens of kung fu movies (Kill Bill, Karate Kid, Blood Sport, ad infinitim) to see this theme repeated over and over and over again. "Wax on, wax off."

2) I dislike the belt system. It's too much like getting grades in school. One of the fun things about athletics is that they are an artificial meritocracy. You don't need "belts" in tennis -- either you can beat someone, in which case you are better than he is, or you cannot, in which case you are worse. Again, "belts" mirror the worst aspects of standard school athletics. Doubtless there are some athletes who care about winning a "letter sweater", for example. I doubt there are many, though. An athlete may want to make the team (in which case the letter sweater is awarded), but generally his motive for making the team has nothing to do with the sweater. Yet advancement throught the "belt" system is seen as a goal in some martial arts. This is related to the cult of the teacher. Rewards (belts) are doled out by the teachers to a greater extent than in other sports, where rewards (cups, championships, victories) arise organically from the competition.

3) Sport at its purest is play. I played college hockey and soccer -- and I loved it. Still, hockey at its purest was a frozen sheet of ice and a bunch of friends in a pick-up game. No referees (they weren't needed, who would cheat?), no coaches, no spectators. When I was a kid, I would play from dawn to dark, any time it was cold enough. All sports fall short of this ideal. Nonetheless, when it comes to martial arts, kids wrestle for the fun of it -- but they don't kick each other or punch each other for the fun of it. It hurts too much. Also, the money-motive infects martial arts (again, it seems to me). Obviously, pro sports are all money motivated, but kids can play basketball for free, anywhere in America. The dojos that are trying to attract students NEED to emphasize the "cult of the teacher". The "value" they offer is largely based on emphasizing that cult.

Obviously, all sports are infected by the problems I note above. I coached college hockey for a year when I was just out of college myself, and quit because I couldn't stand the authoritarian head coach to whom I was an assistant. When I first met him, he said, "We have a great group of kids on the team -- they'd skate into a wall if I told them to." I remember thinking, "Great group of kids? They sound like a bunch of morons to me." I was 21 years old, and didn't say anything out loud (I wanted the job). My old head coach sounds a little like the sensei in Lone Ranger's story, who attacked his student at any time of the day or night to instill constant preparedness. He expected (and lauded) unquestioning acceptance of his techniques and commands.

I didn't like the approach when I was a player. I didn't like the approach when I was a coach. And I still don't like it.

[Qingdai]

I don't know how relevant this is, but I've noticed a lot of martial art schools around here (and in Tampa Florida when I was visiting my friend) serve as inexpensive after school child care and spend a significant time playing at playgrounds.

I took Kajukenbo (Hawaiian street fighting, so I've heard) as a teen. I liked the form and the athleticism, but am not slightly competitive and don't enjoy getting beaten up. So I dropped out rather than participate in the belt driven competitions.
Taichi and QiGong, although full of woo-woo internal healing superstition which I find easy to ignore as I just translate it into "be aware of how your body is moving", are nice if you like form over beating people up.

[LadyShea]

ON martial arts: I admit I'm prejudiced against them

I am prejudiced against most Western team sports (I know they have to master techniques and all, but I can't get past the pinhead players I have met throughout my life getting themselves all frenzied before a game), so that's why this thread has gotten much more heated than I had anticipated.

It's all interesting though, and has led to some discussion here at home and introspection as well....so good thing in general.

[Doctor X]

Yes....good point. I had totally forgotten about that little tid-bit of information. When I was participating (and competing) their were all those hidden fees....

Sparring equipment, belt-testing fees just to name two....

I am not begrudging a guy trying to make a living, but you start accommodating in order to "make rent"--teaching progressively younger children in what becomes a glorified after-school and daycare. Granted, at least the little darlings are moving, not sitting in front of a television.

Cannot get anyone hit, because then they may stop coming. Everyone has to test every month, or they do not have that external validation. Unfortunately, that rational also applies to adults.

--J.D.

[BDS]

ON martial arts: I admit I'm prejudiced against them

I am prejudiced against most Western team sports (I know they have to master techniques and all, but I can't get past the pinhead players I have met throughout my life getting themselves all frenzied before a game), so that's why this thread has gotten much more heated than I had anticipated.

It's all interesting though, and has led to some discussion here at home and introspection as well....so good thing in general.


I'm sure another reason that I am prejudiced against martial arts is that I LOVE Western team sports, and martial arts tend to attract people who (like you) are prejudiced against them.

Of course, as I hope my last post pointed out, I object to many of the pinheaded coaches and players in Western team sports, too. Football, in particular, is rife with violence, frenzy, and the cult of coaching. Personally, I think it's ridiculous for a high school football coach to call plays (for example). Surely if football is to be educational, the players would learn more by calling their own plays.

Nonetheless, I don't think baseball, or basketball, or soccer, or (even) hockey players get "frenzied" before a game, or, if they do, it doesn't help them play better. Football is violent in nature, and the plays only last a few seconds, so "psych" and frenzy may actually help performance. However, you can't maintain that adreneline level throughout a soccer game, or a baskeball game, or a hockey game.

[The Lone Ranger]

It's always a good idea to visit the dojo first and talk to the sensei and students. Also, watch a practice session or two. See what's going on, what's being stressed, and how they train.

In most Asian cultures, unquestioning obedience to authority is considered a virtue. That's not a value I happen to share, and it's indeed one of the things I find rather distasteful about how martial arts are often taught. (Hence the advice to first visit the dojo.)


[As an aside, the point of that story, the one with the (as I myself pointed out, somewhat jerkish sensei) was to teach the proud and arrogant student humility.]


In a traditional Japanese dojo it's considered completely improper to ever question your sensei, and few sensei ever feel obliged to explain why they want you to do something. My approach is rather different. I always explain to them why I want them to do a particular exercise, and I tell them to please ask if they're unsure.

But then, kendo, unlike most other Japanese martial arts, doesn't have a formal belt system, so it's probably less competition-driven than are most. Also, I do not and never have charged my students for instruction.

Cheers,

Michael

[Doctor X]

Fortunately Okinawans generally eschew such egotistical ridiculousness.

Unless, of course, they want to be "Okinawan Samurai."

--J.D.

P.S. Kendo is a modern martial art, hence does not follow the ranks of the old or koryu styles which are the old schools of sword, archery, et cetera. They have licenses.

The "grade" or "dan"--which is used all sorts of things including calligraphy--represented by a black belt really comes from judo. It became apparent that a uniform that could survive the tugging, twisting, and throwing was necessary, and the belt helped tell you what you were dealing with--beginner or trained.

Belts did not enter karate until karate was in Japan. The ranking did not come into karate--save for that imported to Japan like Shotokan--until about the 1950s when the Japanese government basically mandated it. To this day, the teaching rankings are more "glamorous"--shihan, renshi, kyoshi, hanshi.

Oh, and the "register your hands as lethal weapons" comes from American servicemen having to "register" where they were going at night!

[The Lone Ranger]

Yup.

Another reason why such styles as kendo and iaido and whatnot are a lot less likely to be bogged down with unrealistic expectations and beliefs is that no one in his/her right mind can claim that these disciplines have any useful self-defense applications.

Training in judo, karate, etc. can be useful for self-defense, but their effectiveness in real-life situations is vastly overrated.



I helped teach a self-defense course a few years ago. One day, a second-degree black belt in karate came to the class to teach us some techniques. Alas, what happened is that he got a lesson in the difference between sparring and reality.

The basic idea was this: I was to be the "attacker." ("Oh, right, like anyone would ever believe that," one of the students quipped.) I was to rush him and attempt to grapple him.

I was familiar enough with the technique: as the "attacker" rushes in, the defender sidesteps, redirects the attacker's movement, and forces the attacker down. As it's practiced in the dojo, the "attacker" normally cooperates and goes into a forward roll.

This guy insisted that I should not go easy on him. So, I ran toward him. He telegraphed his move about a mile in advance as he sidestepped, so I did what any real attacker would have done -- I compensated, grabbed him, and threw him to the ground. He insisted that he must have done it wrong, so we tried again. Twice more we did it, and each time I threw him to the ground.

I think we all learned an important lesson that day, but probably not the one that he'd been hoping to teach us.


Cheers,

Michael

[Dingfod]

That reminds me of my Tai Chi instructor, who decided to demonstrate the usefulness of a portion of what we had learned thus far. He chose me, told me to grab his wrists. I did, but not hard. He said, "No, grab them like I was the guy that just raped your daughter and you're trying to hold me for the police." I gripped much harder. At that point he was supposed to twist out of them using some martial arts move. It didn't work, he ended up hurting himself in the attempt. One might have expected that result, considering I outweighed him by about a hundred pounds and was most certainly much much stronger than he. Besides, I was expecting it.

[Doctor X]

Another reason why such styles as kendo and iaido and whatnot are a lot less likely to be bogged down with unrealistic expectations and beliefs is that no one in his/her right mind can claim that these disciplines have any useful self-defense applications.

Oh I would not say that. Those who practice the utterly ridiculous iaido tend to also practice aikido and think falling around your opponent is useful. They also tend to refer to themselves as "sempei" and "sensei."

I think it is because of the Magic Pants. . . .

Training in judo, karate, etc. can be useful for self-defense, but their effectiveness in real-life situations is vastly overrated.

Actually, judo is one of the more effective martial arts. Slamming a person hard to the ground is very useful. Regarding karate it depends on how it is trained. If one dances it, it is less than useless. If one fights with it, it is very useful. As with all things, what matters is how realistically it is trained.

As it's practiced in the dojo, the "attacker" normally cooperates and goes into a forward roll.

Yup. There you go.

Heck, I had the displeasure to visit an aikido dojo where the "Dojo Words of Wisdom" or whathaveyou included the point that the opponent never opposes, never resists.

Realism is always an issue. For example, I have been told that "karate" cannot defend against a "shoot." Believe that or not, but I have found driving a knee into the head effective. In order for that to work, you have to time it properly otherwise you are better served "sprawling" the guy--which is also "in karate." Otherwise you are just helping the guy introduce your ass to the cement.

So how do you practice that? Very carefully.

The problem is that people translated "safety" to "no touch" which is a very effective way of convincing people they are invincible.

The other problem--and I wonder whether I should blame the Japanese or their Western fans--is the Myth of Completion--that an art has "everything." In Okinawa, there is no problem with training in more than one system--like a grappling art, judo, a striking art, weapons, et cetera. Yet too many pretend that "their art" is "perfect."

That being written there is a very good reason that nearly all of the senior practitioners I know carry guns.

Now what that has to do with kids? Depends on what one wants the kid to learn.

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

It didn't work, he ended up hurting himself in the attempt. One might have expected that result, considering I outweighed him by about a hundred pounds and was most certainly much much stronger than he. Besides, I was expecting it.

I guess his Chi was low that day. Maybe his kidneys were cold. Or you grabbed his ganka point or something.

Either way, the technique was perfect--you just did it wrong!

--J.D.

[Dingfod]

Maybe I was more in tune with my Chi than he was.

[Doctor X]

Not . . . that there is anything wrong with that.

--J.D.

[Dingfod]

Or I had eaten my Chi-tos.

[Doctor X]

Surely you mean . . . "Chi-toes?"

--J.D.

[Dingfod]

No, "Chi-tos":

http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/cheetos-girl.jpg

[Doctor X]

You are what you eat. . . .

--J.D.

[Qingdai]

Looks more like a chi-ho to me.

[Doctor X]

She wears a ho-chi-mini.

--J.D.

[Goliath]

I spent six and a half years in Tae Kwon Do and ended up with a first degree black belt. Although our school was technically TKD, we were very ecclectic and did a lot of things: grappling, trapping, throws, takedowns, weapons, and breaking. It's breaking that I find myself missing the most. In my bedroom, I keep a photo that a friend took of me breaking four spaced 8"x16"x2" patio blocks. At my best, I could break seven of them spaced apart.

Anyhoo...martial artists are not all Mr. Miyagi like. Some of them can be jerks (myself included!). However, if you can find a competent instructor who doesn't treat belt promotions as a race, then a martial arts class can be a good thing for kids. It gets them exercise, it builds self-discipline and self-esteem, too.

[Caligulette]

I have been in a real life situation where tai-chi (what wee skillz I have in it) was useful in knocking someone over. I cannot remember the name of the move, something like "wave hands like wind", whatever. He fell, I ran. there you go.

Mr Notsomuch Caligulette has returned home both bruised and having bruised others from when he's been sparring (and then, this is the funny part, he gets upset when I offer no sympathy and say instead, "So, at a pre-arranged time, you met up with some dudes in the park having agreed to practice tai chi holds and strikes on each other and you got hurt. Yeah....":rolleyes:).

I have also seen them go at it at full speed, and there have been some interesting surprises. A lot of the effectiveness does have to do with telegraphing your moves, which they're good at not doing.

[Doctor X]

Tai Chi sparing is a contradiction in terms. . . .

--J.D.

[Qingdai]

"Push hands" is what all the guys are calling it who don't want to seem like they like beating people up, but really do.

[Caligulette]

More like "break finger", but whatever.

[Doctor X]

Someone did a hilarious "Finals of Tai Chi Sparing" video . . . sloooowwwww motion.

Jet Li at least made it look martial in the movie of the same title. Granted, Jet can make square dancing look dangerous.

--J.D.

[LadyShea]

So, I got a postcard in the mail for an introductory Tae Kwon Do course for little guys age 3-6 at a new place very near our home. $49.00 for 4 weeks (they offer 5 classes a week and you can go to any or all of them) plus the uniform. Seems to me the uniform is worth 50 bucks. We went to a free class tonight to see if he would even participate and meet the instructors.

I was stunned. Normally he is shy around new people to the point of hanging out on my lap until he is comfortbale, but he went right over to the junior instructor and tossed a ball with him. Then they were to stay on their own spots on the floor and do various exercises like stretching and jumping, and they are to stand at attention or sit at attention when receiving the next set of instructions, they are also expected to answer "Yes Ma'am" when asked to do something. He was the youngest there and the only first timer, but he did really well. He seemed to have fun so we went ahead with the introductory course, so he can try it for a month.

At these ages they have their own little belt system based on mastering a specific item in 5 categories for each level; a life skill (politeness, honor, anger management, and concentration are listed), a stance (first level is to stand at attention), a technique (punching a target), a block, and a concentration or coordination drill.

Anyway, so far pretty positive experience.

[Dingfod]

I need to get my grandson into something like that, he needs both the discipline and the confidence. I just hope I can avoid Cobra Khan.

[LadyShea]

This is a McDojo, I'll be honest, but it offers what I am looking for for Kiddo (time with a different authority figure, self control, confidence, etc.) for a limited time, so I am happy. We will probably NOT be moving to a permanent monthly plan though. 65.00/month for him alone, for 12 mos, automatic withdrawal.

For that we can join the YMCA as a family. For half that we can join at the nearby rec center that offers all kinds of classes and a pool and b-ball court etc.

The Y offer non member prices for specific programs like T-Ball, so we will probably move on to those, give him an introduction to a number of activities then let him decide what to continue with when he's a bit older.

[wei yau]

Bumping this because my 7-year-old daughter has started taking Tae Kwon Do classes at our gym. The classes are given by a local martial arts studio. If she likes it enough, then I'll have to consider finding her a more dedicated studio.

As this is an introductory course at the gym, I don't know what I should be expecting. However, so far the instructions seems to be very light. My daughter is in classes with "white belts" and I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

I watch the instructor telling the kids what to perform and they repeat. But, frankly, my daughter's form is for shit, yet I never see the instructor correcting her.

Maybe it's too soon for that or something?

Anyway, I re-read this thread to get some advice when I search for an actual studio for her. I'm thinking about taking classes as well, after I drop some poundage.

Any updates to the advice? Shea - has Kiddo continued his training?

Should I not be looking for more Chinese disciplines, instead of the Korean Tae Kwan Do or Japanese styles?

Krav Maga for kids?

[LadyShea]

I forgot all about this thread. Contrary to my last post, we did sign up for the monthly plan and Kiddo has done two belt testings. He loves class and still is happy to go 4 times a week :) We feel he is benefiting in many ways.

Wei, I noted at our studio they don't really correct the kids either, especially newbs, they just go over the same things every class and eventually the kids seem to correct themselves. Repetition and practice I guess?

[Sock Puppet]

As this is an introductory course at the gym, I don't know what I should be expecting. However, so far the instructions seems to be very light. My daughter is in classes with "white belts" and I'm not sure if that's good or bad.Which, the light instruction or the white belts? I personally hate the whole belt-system crapola, but for younguns it gives them a little gold star to work towards.

I watch the instructor telling the kids what to perform and they repeat. But, frankly, my daughter's form is for shit, yet I never see the instructor correcting her.

Maybe it's too soon for that or something?Yeah, especially for young kids, they've got to do the forms over and over before corrections will really do much of anything. Even for adults, actually. Until you have the form memorized in at least a vague sense, it's useless to correct anything.

Should I not be looking for more Chinese disciplines, instead of the Korean Tae Kwan Do or Japanese styles?Of course you should. Whele is youl nationar plide?

Krav Maga for kids?Depends on what you want her to learn. If your goal is real, no-foolin' self-defense skills for her, by all means go for Krav Maga or some other practical martial art*. Not that there are no Tae Kwon Do practitioners who are good fighters, but most frankly aren't. But it's one of the best martial arts for a good all-around workout, especially for kids.

Watch out for y'self, though. TKD has a shitload of jumping around, high-kicking, all that crap. Old folks can easily rupture something.


*ETA: often, the schools offering more practical martial arts training won't teach young kids. They generally don't want kids to maim each other permanently over a playground dispute about whether Hannah Montana is for dorks.

[LadyShea]

They had a parent participation class one night (trying to get more adult sign ups, of course), and I was fucking sore the next day. It was a much harder workout than I had expected. I also liked the jumping knife hand to the throat move she taught us. I hope to use it on someone someday, cuz I am violent like that.

Oh and I don't think she wanted us to sign up, since hubby and I were way too eager to learn techniques to fuck each other up ;).

[Ymir's blood]

All of my source material indicates that the only true way to learn martial arts is being taught by the gardener or cook at the Shaolin Temple or else from a cranky old beggar.

[wei yau]

The problem I'm facing is distinguishing a good studio from a glorified daycare. Still, perhaps I shouldn't worry about that so much just yet. As we progress through the classes, I'll be better able to evaluate the studio, as well as maybe get some contacts who might know where the true sifu teaches.

Also, I'd like to find a studio not run by some Korean dog.*



* What? Sock told me to be more nationalist

[BrotherMan]

heheh
:inscrutable:

[BDS]

Couldn't parents save a lot of money by just encouraging their kids to get in lots of brawls?

[Bastard]

I studied Aikido for over twenty years, in three countries, and did a spell in Japan studying as a holiday. Did it teach me self discipline? Yes, as I wanted it to. Did it teach me how not to get sand kicked in my face? Not really, the extra curricula karate I studied was more useful for that (Shotokan, Kyokushin and others)

Aikido did help me face a lot of fears, to keep a calm mind, to learn a form of physically active meditation, and still underpins my attitude and response to many things in life, including adventures sports, work and relationships.

Kids need incentives to advance, they like "gaining bets", any reasonable teacher will use them appropriately. They are a trivia really.

The thing that has been interesting about reading this thread has been this "payment" idea. Apart from special courses and classes, I only ever paid a contribution to the club expenses, and all my instructors, bar some visiting sensei, and those in Japan, were volunteers, who taught and studied for the love of the art, and for their own advancement.

“One should always be aware of the nature ones opponent” is a valuable lesson…

Thugs attack two men in dresses... who turn out to be cage fighters | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218651/Thugs-attack-men-dresses--turn-cage-fighters.html)

[Prince Vegita]

At the age of 7 the "art" is pretty irrelevant. You're paying so your kid can learn some mental discipline, be part of a group, learn some self respect and respect for authority (opinions on that may vary), be physically active and gain some flexibility that will hopefully last into adulthood.