My Experiment with Homosexuality

[Zoot]

Not quite what you'd think.

Since Draper and Sycophant brought to my attention how frequently people use "gay" or some equivalent as a generic, good-natured derogatory term, I have noticed how often people around me use it, and how often I use it.

I am a vegetarian, and my brother, brother-in-law and Sycophant himself often refer to my meals as homosexual in some way. I might joke about Sycophant's pregnant boyfriend. Etc.

In an attempt to deconstruct the use of the term, I'm going to replace it in my own vocabulary with another equally arbitrary minority term: Christian. I'll let you all know how this experiment goes.

[justaman]

"Writing all these fucking reports is Christian, man."

I like it! Zoot, without doubt, this is definitely the best idea you've ever had.

[Zoot]

It confuses the hell out of people.

I'm reminded of Good Will Hunting, when wotshername asks Will if he'd like to get a coffee sometime, and he says something like, "Or we could sit around and eat caramels. It's no more arbitrary a reason to get together and talk than coffee is."

[seebs]

Huh.

The only time I use the word is literally. Never picked up the idiomatic uses.

[justaman]

Huh.

The only time I use the word is literally. Never picked up the idiomatic uses.
Really? Maybe it's not an American thing? Not sure. I say it and hear it all the time. "Man that is so gay". Basically = "that sucks so much".

Colloquialisms like that are funny though. You kinda forget that maybe someone might be offended by it! It's like how I always say "Jesus, dude" and thank people when they bless me after sneezing. The original reason behind why we first started using the word/term gets lost some place and there isn't any real connection between what the word originally represented and what you use it for now. Not that people can't still be offended by that :P

[livius drusus]

Seems a little unweildy and contrived to me. I used to say "that's so gay" in junior high. Once I became conscious of it I just kind of stopped. Grew out of it, to coin a phrase.

[SharonDee]

Really? Maybe it's not an American thing? Not sure. I say it and hear it all the time. "Man that is so gay". Basically = "that sucks so much".
It's an American thing, all right. My nineteen year old daughter has been using the word that way for quite a while now. Maybe it's an American "yoot" thing.
:shrug:

[Beth]

Really? Maybe it's not an American thing? Not sure. I say it and hear it all the time. "Man that is so gay". Basically = "that sucks so much".
It's an American thing, all right. My nineteen year old daughter has been using the word that way for quite a while now. Maybe it's an American "yoot" thing.
:shrug:My kids say it at times, I get onto them. For a while, they were calling each other "faggots"- which is an extremely popular thing amongst the kids out here. Well, they did till I had had enough one day, pulled over the car and explained that it is a slur and that only gays can use it, just like only black people can use the "n" word. I told them if they say "faggot", they had better be gay and that from here on out, I will assume they are if they use the word. The usage stopped, the usage the term "gay" for lame-assed stuff has dramatically tapered as well.

[Blake]

I guess it's more or less universal in worldwide Anglo culture; growing up in Canada, "that's so gay," "you fag" and "faggot" were all very common expressions.

Then again, I went to an all-boys' school. I guess it had a bit more zip there. Woe betide those who were actually gay. My school was more than a little racist and homophobic.

[Sweetie]

Not much of that in my vocabulary. Never heard the term wanker or asshat or any of those before coming to this forum either though my friend uses the term rat bastard and such.

To interject the term "Christian" = "man that is so Christian!", would sound similar to a has been used term, "man that is so righteous!" "cool!" = "righteous!".

Hehe, if you are saying then that you want to walk around saying "man that is so Christian," I might have to think, how gay. :P

[viscousmemories]

I never heard gay used as a synonym for stupid until I started playing Unreal Tournament online. I found it really offensive at first, but I soon came to believe that homosexuality never crossed the minds of the people who were using it. Now I use it occassionally, but I prefer to make 'homosexual' cracks just 'cause the word sounds more funny to me.

I recently read a long thread at IIDB in which a gay woman argued that people should not use the word 'gay' as a synonym for stupid because it's offensive to gays, then an hour later I saw a gay person use it in just that way. Anyway if I use it and someone is offended, I'll apologize. I'll also speak at length and in detail about why I think gay people deserve equal rights if I see someone suggesting otherwise. Beyond that I can't say I'm really worried about it.

[Sweetie]

I just think the word itself doesn't fit. The terms that do get all around use for that purpose are generally short with one syllable:

phat
sweet
gay
weird
cool
rad
rank


The composition of the word and it's pronunciation I think would make it so that it would be unlikely to stick. That's just my prediction of how your experiment will fly but New Zealanders talk funny, so you never know. :P

[Beth]

Not much of that in my vocabulary. Never heard the term wanker or asshat or any of those before coming to this forum either though my friend uses the term rat bastard and such.

To interject the term "Christian" = "man that is so Christian!", would sound similar to a has been used term, "man that is so righteous!" "cool!" = "righteous!".

Hehe, if you are saying then that you want to walk around saying "man that is so Christian," I might have to think, how gay. Well, it wouldn't if it was used to depict something lame. In fact, Christian, even in my fundy area can have negative connotations to it. Many Christians refuse to be labelled Christian, but chose "followers of Christ" or "believers" instead.

Wanker has been used for ages, since I was a kid at least and asshat, I noticed it starting to be said about two years ago IRL, I think I read it on II before that, though.

[Sweetie]

Well, it wouldn't if it was used to depict something lame. In fact, Christian, even in my fundy area can have negative connotations to it.

It may or may not have negative connotations for it, but whether it would or would not work in our vocabularies in the same way that the term in question "gay" could, I think is unlikely and it would sound contrived because of the composition of the word itself. I think the term would naturally resemble that of a past term "righteous" because of it's composition, and try using the term "righteous" in a sentence to sound derogatory, to get the intended meaning, the meaning we ascribe to the term "gay" in this instance, across.

[Beth]

Well, it wouldn't if it was used to depict something lame. In fact, Christian, even in my fundy area can have negative connotations to it.

It may or may not have negative connotations for it, but whether it would or not work in our vocabularies in the same way that the term in question, "gay" could, I think is unlikely and it would sound contrived because of the composition of the word itself.
Well, I would not know. I don't wish success at it, but I would think it could possibly catch on, especially in non-Christian groups. It just depends on whether enough people think that the Christians are deserving of ridicule and disliked enough.

I will add, that I would say something if I heard my kids use Christian as a substitute for "lame", I would say something about it, just as I would if they say "gay". I don't particularly think that a particular groups needs to be slurred for something that is totally unassociated with that group.

[Beth]

I think the term would naturally resemble that of a past term, "righteous" because of it's composition, and try using the term "righteous" in a sentence to sound derogatory, to get the intended meaning, the meaning we ascribe to the term "gay" in this instance, across.
__________________I don't necessarily think that the public thinks "righteous" and Christians go hand in hand. I don't really agree that it will have the same parallel. There are many people, including Christians, that see negativity in the word "Christian". The word "Christian" originated, if I am not mistaken, as a slur.

When I am insulted or offended by religious friend or family because of self-righteousness, I always add the slight, "How Christian of you!", with a nice smile.

[Sweetie]

It just depends on whether enough people think that the Christians are deserving of ridicule and disliked enough.

But you have to remember the term "gay" has not always nor in our present vocabulary meant "homosexual." It has in the past meant merry, and I don't know if it's because I've read alot of historical novels or older style writers, but I associate the term gay with merry just as much as I do with homosexuality. I do occasionally use the term "gay" in my life to mean "happy, good, fun". "Gay" to me, in the primary usage we're thinking of comes accross as "how weird." I really don't know if there is a direct causal relationship between gay and derogatory to homosexuals, I suppose we'd have to look at the evolution of the word itself and whether or not that is it's intended use by many, but at present, I am not certain.

[Sweetie]

[quote]I don't necessarily think that the public thinks "righteous" and Christians go hand in hand. I don't really agree that it will have the same parallel. There are many people, including Christians, that see negativity in the word "Christian". The word "Christian" originated, if I am not mistaken, as a slur.

You are totally missing my point in this instance, I am not trying to show a connection between the meaning of the term Christian to righteous, but notice in both the composition of both words are more complex than the generic words we are using.

In historical romance novels, for instance, there is generally a noticable trend to name the main charachter with names that begin with certain letters, T is one of them, J too I think though I don't remember the others. This is done on purpose because they are picked up or they work in our minds differently or whatever, I thought the study I read about that years ago was really interesting.

So, something like that is more my point than what you are thinking I'm saying.

In your response, "how Christian of you" the use of the term Christian is not easy-going, it's cold and sarcastic, it does not relate to the general and easy-going usage of the term "gay" that we are speaking of.

[Beth]

It just depends on whether enough people think that the Christians are deserving of ridicule and disliked enough.

But you have to remember the term "gay" has not always nor in our present vocabulary meant "homosexual." It has in the past meant merry, and I don't know if it's because I've read alot of historical novels or older style writers, but I associate the term gay with merry just as much as I do with homosexuality. I do occasionally use the term "gay" in my life to mean "happy, good, fun". "Gay" to me, in the primary usage we're thinking of comes accross as "how weird." I really don't know if there is a direct causal relationship between gay and derogatory to homosexuals, I suppose we'd have to look at the evolution of the word itself and whether or not that is it's intended use by many, but at present, I am not certain.Wordorigins.org has a little to say on the origin of the word: OK, so gay was definitely in use in the 1920s, and perhaps earlier, but how did the term come to be associated with homosexuals? Several possibilities exist, but the acronym for Good As You is not one of them.

The most likely explanation is that it derives from gaycat or geycat, a slang term for a tramp or hobo who is new to the road. Gaycats were commonly in the company of older tramps, implying a homosexual relationship. The term, according to Lighter, dates to at least the 1890s. Gaycats were employed as lookouts while other hoboes committed crimes. The OED2 cites the 1935 Underworld & Prison Slang by N. Ersine as defining geycat as a homosexual boy. The origin of gaycat is unknown. Green, however, says a gay cat was a tramp who offered sexual services to women.

Another possible origin is the late nineteenth century slang usage of gay to mean promiscuous. A gay house meant a brothel. This sexual sense of the term could have become associated with homosexual promiscuity and the heterosexual sense lost.

Older people have told me that the word became popularized after Bringing Up Baby.

[viscousmemories]

You two crack me up. I'm almost positive Zoot was being facetious, and is not actually planning on using the word Christian as a replacement for 'gay'. Almost positive.

[Sweetie]

And too, just thinking of the pronunciation of these words, cool, the way it's pronounced, is an up-sounding word, it goes up in our pitch, "Chri" takes you up in pitch, "ri" and "eous" takes you up in pitch.

"Gay" is a low-sounding word I would think primarily because of the elongated "y", "rank" because of the sharpness of the "nk."

So, the upper-sounding pitched words generally sound more enthusiastic than the lower-sounding words so the lower sounding words I would think, would be more likely to naturally lend themselves to the usages in question.

[Sweetie]

You two crack me up. I'm almost positive Zoot was being facetious, and is not actually planning on using the word Christian as a replacement for 'gay'. Almost positive.

LOL, umm, I think that's a toss up. It would probably suit him if he could change something of human language single-handedly. :D

[maddog]

Wanker has been used for ages, since I was a kid at least and asshat, I noticed it starting to be said about two years ago IRL, I think I read it on II before that, though.
I have never seen these slur words except since I joined II. I know they are slur words, but I don't really know what they mean. I don't even know how one would pronounce the "a-word."

I have also never, ever, heard "gay" as a substitute for "lame" or "stupid." I would be offended if I heard anybody say it. Of course, I am over 30, and I live in an ivory tower. So there you go.
#268

[Beth]

You two crack me up. I'm almost positive Zoot was being facetious, and is not actually planning on using the word Christian as a replacement for 'gay'. Almost positive.

LOL, umm, I think that's a toss up. It would probably suit him if he could change something of human language single-handedly. :D
Well, I have no one else to argue with at this time. I would rather argue something silly thanto argue something heavy. Duncha agree, Sweets?

Anyway, I reread your edited reply, I did misunderstand, but I do not agree that it could not come into common usage and then evolve into something shorter but still in relation with the original slur.

I also checked out the "J" and "T" thing. I noticed that in the historical porn, every other book had a "J" or "T" names "James, Thomas, Jilly, Jackson, Jared", and so on, but not quite so with the non-trash historical fiction.

[Beth]

Wanker has been used for ages, since I was a kid at least and asshat, I noticed it starting to be said about two years ago IRL, I think I read it on II before that, though.
I have never seen these slur words except since I joined II. I know they are slur words, but I don't really know what they mean. I don't even know how one would pronounce the "a-word."

I have also never, ever, heard "gay" as a substitute for "lame" or "stupid." I would be offended if I heard anybody say it. Of course, I am over 30, and I live in an ivory tower. So there you go.
#268
Really? First time I ever used "wanker" was when I was 14 or 15. I did not know it was a naughty word at the time. I also used to saw "wuss" alot, as well. My husband insists asshat has been around for a while, long before I noticed it. Even Colin Powell has used it! (http://www.confusednation.com/asshat/):D

[TomJoe]

I recently read a long thread at IIDB in which a gay woman argued that people should not use the word 'gay' as a synonym for stupid...


There really is no need to use the word "gay" as a synonym for stupid when the following words exist:

moron, idiot, imbecile, fucktard and "you dumb motherfucker".

YMMV depending on what MB you're currently posting on.

[Beth]

I recently read a long thread at IIDB in which a gay woman argued that people should not use the word 'gay' as a synonym for stupid...


There really is no need to use the word "gay" as a synonym for stupid when the following words exist:

moron, idiot, imbecile, fucktard and "you dumb motherfucker".

YMMV depending on what MB you're currently posting on.
I personally like "fucktard" or "fuckwit" myself.
But I cannot say "that's so fucktard". I can say "that's retarded", "that's so lame", " that's whacked." There are plenty of lovely words out there that simply makes "gay" unnecessary. :)

[Sweetie]

I have also never, ever, heard "gay" as a substitute for "lame" or "stupid."


If I were to take a guess at why the term might have evolved that way in my community, I would map it out like this:

If the word is taken to mean primarily, "happy" or better "happy, happy, joy-joy" which it has in the past, if someone were to ask me, "did you have a good time," I would probably not respond "yeah, it was gay" if it was a good experience, but I could and have in the past responded with, "yeah, it was a gay ol' time", which of course means, it was happy, it was great.......Not, so that would be it's sarcastic usage basing itself on the original common usage.

Further, I do think in this "realism" or realistic society, ie: "get real", being blunt, sarcastic, the concept of gay= "happy, happy, joy-joy" is generally distasteful to us, us being so mature and supposedly disillusioned :D , it seems innocent, unrealistic, puritanical, ie: everybody getting along and making nice-nice, our first reaction --> yuck (or mine at least).

Then, there is one usage my dictionary gave for gay which is interesting:

4: brightly colored and showy; "girls decked out in brave new dresses"; "brave banners flying"; "`braw' is a Scottish word"; "a dress a bit too gay for her years"; "birds with gay plumage"

So I mean, as that relates to a drag queenish style, well, I find the style cheesy, so that could relate to the usage of the term gay as lame.

[Sweetie]

I personally like "fucktard" or "fuckwit" myself.
But I cannot say "that's so fucktard". I can say "that's retarded", "that's so lame", " that's whacked." There are plenty of lovely words out there that simply makes "gay" unnecessary. :)

Haha, or just shorten it to a term I think but don't think have ever really desired to speak, just plain old "tard" works great, "you tard" which renders the "fuck" part also unnecessary. :P

[Dragar]

It's used in the same sort of context Zoot has mentioned here in England (or at least, parts of England), though usually in younger generations. It's not usually used to mean 'stupid'; very often simply annoying, silly or not worth bothering about. 'Pants' or 'poo' are other words sometimes used in its place. The interesting part is that it's understood that these words are silly to be used in such a way - and that's part of the appeal of using them.

Of course, it does get used in the more common meaning of homosexual, too, and very rarely (by older members of society) as a word meaning happy.

[Beth]

So I mean, as that relates to a drag queenish style, well, I find the style cheesy, so that could relate to the usage of the term gay as lame.Oh, come on! Some queens are hawt!:P The cheesiness is just part of the joy*cough*, er, should I say gayness, of it. :)

You know how queer used to be used in the same way that gay now is? I used to say, "that's queersville" or "that's queer" not meaning gays, but in the same slang context that gay is now used for wierd and lame. Well, now queer is rarely used, I've noticed, unless it is used as a slang for a gays. Anyhoo, I wonder if there is some connection there.

[Beth]

I personally like "fucktard" or "fuckwit" myself.
But I cannot say "that's so fucktard". I can say "that's retarded", "that's so lame", " that's whacked." There are plenty of lovely words out there that simply makes "gay" unnecessary. :)

Haha, or just shorten it to a term I think but don't think have ever really desired to speak, just plain old "tard" works great, "you tard" which renders the "fuck" part also unnecessary. :P
Normally I use "tard". Using "fuck", unless it is under my breath or to hubby and close friends, is not very acceptable in my circles, unfortunately.-meaning I live around very uptight people. Anyway, I mumble "fucktard" under my breath or scream it at drivers (windows rolled up) when driving. Meaning, except for when talking to close friends and myself, IRL, or in written text, I rarely use "fuck".

[godfry n. glad]

I have also never, ever, heard "gay" as a substitute for "lame" or "stupid."


If I were to take a guess at why the term might have evolved that way in my community, I would map it out like this:

If the word is taken to mean primarily, "happy" or better "happy, happy, joy-joy" which it has in the past, if someone were to ask me, "did you have a good time," I would probably not respond "yeah, it was gay" if it was a good experience, but I could and have in the past responded with, "yeah, it was a gay ol' time", which of course means, it was happy, it was great.......Not, so that would be it's sarcastic usage basing itself on the original common usage.

Further, I do think in this "realism" or realistic society, ie: "get real", being "blunt, sarcastic, the concept of gay= "happy, happy, joy-joy" is generally distasteful to us, us being so mature and supposedly disillusioned :D , it seems innocent, unrealistic, puritanical, ie: everybody getting along and making nice-nice, our first reaction --> yuck (or mine at least).



You mean it didn't come into being by being compared to something that sucks?

Not great = sucks = gay.

Of course, since it is a diametrically opposite meaning to that used by older generations, that makes it all the better...

[seebs]

Really? Maybe it's not an American thing? Not sure. I say it and hear it all the time. "Man that is so gay". Basically = "that sucks so much".

I know people who use it. I'm just not one of them. It always struck me as too offensive, and I never picked up the habit.

Colloquialisms like that are funny though. You kinda forget that maybe someone might be offended by it! It's like how I always say "Jesus, dude" and thank people when they bless me after sneezing. The original reason behind why we first started using the word/term gets lost some place and there isn't any real connection between what the word originally represented and what you use it for now. Not that people can't still be offended by that :P

Yeah. I always think it's funny when atheists say "Omigawd".

One of the atheists who hung around on CF was in IRC once, and I mentioned making a mug of hot chocolate with bailey's and kaluha in it, and she said "OH YOUR GOD THAT SOUNDS GOOD!!!"

[seebs]

CF leaves one very few colorful options for describing people, but one is inspired to creativity by this.

When I'm not trying to be creative, I'm fairly fond of fucktard.

BTW, Google on "fucktard nerdy redhead twat", and wonder.

[TomJoe]

Haha, or just shorten it to a term I think but don't think have ever really desired to speak, just plain old "tard" works great, "you tard" which renders the "fuck" part also unnecessary. :P

If you're going to call someone a "tard" you're better off calling them a "turd". Just MHO. :)

[Beth]

CF leaves one very few colorful options for describing people, but one is inspired to creativity by this.

When I'm not trying to be creative, I'm fairly fond of fucktard.

BTW, Google on "fucktard nerdy redhead twat", and wonder. :giggles:

[Dingfod]

I just use "That's lame." (as in "a lame excuse for a _________") or the old standby "That sucks." or even "That fucking sucks." depending on the audience for things or situations where "suck" would be used. I used to say "idjit" (idiot), "stupid" or "stupid idiot" for lame excuses for people, but now that I've seen Napolean Dynamite, I use "Goll! You're a frigging idiot." instead.

[Petra]

In an attempt to deconstruct the use of the term, I'm going to replace it in my own vocabulary with another equally arbitrary minority term: Christian. I'll let you all know how this experiment goes.


LOL! That is just so gay!

[godfry n. glad]

Yeah. I always think it's funny when atheists say "Omigawd".

One of the atheists who hung around on CF was in IRC once, and I mentioned making a mug of hot chocolate with bailey's and kaluha in it, and she said "OH YOUR GOD THAT SOUNDS GOOD!!!"

Yeah, I think it's curious, too. When people use that phrase around me, I respond with, "You can just call me <reallifename>".

I like the atheist line about the drink...

I still use "Jesus KeeReist on a KeeRutch" as a toe-jamming, thumslamming stupid-man-trick explicative.

I always wondered where the "H" came from. Did Jesus have a middle name?

I rather enjoyed seeing socratoad using "dog" in place of the usual divine reference, particularly for new oaths.

Dogdamn has it's charm. Dog knows why.

godfry

[Dingfod]

I always wondered where the "H" came from. Did Jesus have a middle name?The H stands for Harold, as in, "Our Father, who art in heaven, Harold be thy name".

Actually, Uncle Cecil has a take on this subject. (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_033.html)