Lighten Up!

[livius drusus]

What do y'all think of this expression? I've seen it a lot since I started posting on discussion boards, and to me, more often than not looks like a way to dismiss someone under the thinnest plywood veneer of humor. Sometimes the sneer behind the comment is palpably obvious; sometimes it seems like a genuine attempt to explain that something was meant in jest.

The thing is, I can't imagine anyone to whom it's been directed saying "Ohh... That's my problem. I need to treat subject X like a joke even though it means something to me. Gotcha. Consider it done." I've don't recall ever seeing a suggestion that someone "lighten up" result in a thread actually lightening up, so what's the point, really?

Have you said it to someone? How did you expect it would be taken? How was it taken? How do you take it when it's said to you?

I usually ignore it but it irritates me. If I do address it, it's just to point out that if I thought my concerns weren't worth airing I would not have aired them.

[Ronin]

I think that in a text-based world "lighten up" most often is perceived as insulting.

If, on the other hand, there is a hug and a sympathetic inflection (maybe even a generalized expression for all involved in a discussion)...then "just lighten up a bit and try not to take every issue personally" can be made a positive thing.

If snapped sarcastically..."oh, lighten up!" can just about match "oh, fuck you!" in acidity.

Being dismissed outright using any words can hurt...especially in the midst of a simple disagreement with a friend on any number of contentious issues.

Sometimes we don't even realize it when we do it to others.

I think that is why remaining "unconditional" is an important attribute in any relationship.

[Dingfod]

You really need to lighten up. :P

[RevDahlia]

Hate. HAAAAATE.

Basically, what you said. I've heard this more frequently IRL than on messageboards, usually from people with no respect for anything intellectual. They've figured out that accusing others of being "uptight" is the only way they can guilt themselves to victory in an argument.

I used to scuttle away in shame and mortification whenever anyone demanded that I lighten up. Now I have figured out that people who use this tactic in an argument have nothing and know they have nothing, so it doesn't bother me anymore.

Don't even get me started on "it's not that deep, y'all" or "no offense, but..."

[Dingfod]

No offense, but I've heard it more from the sidelines than from someone I'm conversing with, "You really need to lighten up."

[RevDahlia]

No offense, but I've heard it more from the sidelines than from someone I'm conversing with, "You really need to lighten up."
When I hear it from the sidelines, it is inevitably from a flunky, stooge or other hanger-on of the person with whom I'm arguing.

[livius drusus]

I think that in a text-based world "lighten up" most often is perceived as insulting.

I agree. Is it most often intended as insulting, or at the very least dismissive?

If, on the other hand, there is a hug and a sympathetic inflection (maybe even a generalized expression for all involved in a discussion)...then "just lighten up a bit and try not to take every issue personally" can be made a positive thing.

I wouldn't know. I doubt anyone who knows me would seek to defuse me in such a manner. Nobody has up until now, at any rate.

[livius drusus]

Basically, what you said. I've heard this more frequently IRL than on messageboards, usually from people with no respect for anything intellectual. They've figured out that accusing others of being "uptight" is the only way they can guilt themselves to victory in an argument.

Right. Make the fact that you're discussing the subject at all seem like some perceptual failing on your part. It hasn't happened to me irl, though.

I used to scuttle away in shame and mortification whenever anyone demanded that I lighten up. Now I have figured out that people who use this tactic in an argument have nothing and know they have nothing, so it doesn't bother me anymore.

It doesn't bother you or you just move right along? Because the two are totally not mutually exclusive to me.

[livius drusus]

No offense, but I've heard it more from the sidelines than from someone I'm conversing with, "You really need to lighten up."

What Rev said. Of course, since I've only encountered this on discussion boards, there aren't any sidelines as such, just thread participants.

[Dingfod]

I meant to say IRL.

[Clutch Munny]

The thing about "lighten up" is, it's in the imperative. It's a fucking order.

You seem annoyed about something. Why don't I issue you commands until you come to recognize the defects of your judgement?.

Huh. And that doesn't work on some people? Weird.

[Dingfod]

No offense, but I've heard it more from the sidelines than from someone I'm conversing with, "You really need to lighten up."
When I hear it from the sidelines, it is inevitably from a flunky, stooge or other hanger-on of the person with whom I'm arguing.I've probably heard it as much from people on my side. Perhaps that says something about me.

[livius drusus]

I hadn't even thought of it, but yes, it's an imperative. That totally pisses me off. Thank you!

You seem annoyed about something. Why don't I issue you commands until you come to recognize the defects of your judgement?.

:bow:

[Farren]

Funny, I've never found this phrase particularly offensive. There have been many occasions when I appreciated it being proffered at me, given my predisposition for taking things far too seriously of late.

Then again. In olden times I used to lighten up (a roach) quite often and wonder why people took themselves so seriously, so perhaps my sympathy for lightening-uppers is the product of some kind of yearning for lost youth. Or the fjords.

[beyelzu]

the last time someone suggested I lighten up was when I met some of my friend shannon's friends who disagreed with me on some social issues, they being incredibly liberal. I went out to my truck to get some source material when they said one of my statistics were bullshit.

that's when I was told to lighten up.


I dont think the person winning an argument ever makes the statement

[beyelzu]

Funny, I've never found this phrase particularly offensive. There have been many occasions when I appreciated it being proffered at me, given my predisposition for taking things far too seriously of late.

Then again. In olden times I used to lighten up (a roach) quite often and wonder why people took themselves so seriously, so perhaps my sympathy for lightening-uppers is borne of some kind of yearning for lost youth. Or the fjords.
or the cannabis??

[Farren]

or the cannabis??

Former youth and cannabis are more or less synonomous in my life. And fjords figure in there somewhere too.

[Godless Wonder]

The thing is, I can't imagine anyone to whom it's been directed saying "Ohh... That's my problem. I need to treat subject X like a joke even though it means something to me. .

Well, it may mean that they think you ought to reevaluate how much it means to you and consider the possibility that it might not be so important after all. Just because it is important to you at this moment doesn't automatcally make it actually important.

One poster whose posts have very often made me think (if not write) "lighten up" has the initials V.M. Typically the subject is "discussion forum moderation" when that happens, and how people ought to behave on discussion forums.

In more general terms, if I think "lighten up," it's usually when I think someone is overly focussed on some detail which, regardless of what they decide, really doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference either way.

Either that, or, I've made a joke, and they got it, but didn't think it was funny, or worse, became superflously insulted.

[livius drusus]

Funny, I've never found this phrase particularly offensive. There have been many occasions when I appreciated it being proffered at me, given my predisposition for taking things far too seriously of late.

Do you think it was proferred to you in the spirit of positive, loving, self-improvement, or is that just how you take it because you're a positive, loving, self-improving kind of a guy?

Then again. In olden times I used to lighten up (a roach) quite often and wonder why people took themselves so seriously, so perhaps my sympathy for lightening-uppers is the product of some kind of yearning for lost youth. Or the fjords.

I haven't sparked one in a little while, but even when I was hitting the bubbler every day I neither told anyone to lighten up nor took it well when I was told.

[livius drusus]

I dont think the person winning an argument ever makes the statement

Yeah, but how about all the people who post on a thread just to tell the people engaged on the subject that they're tools for being engaged in the first place? That's not about winning the argument. That's just good old fashioned your priorities are stupid; use mine instead.

[Clutch Munny]

Well, it may mean that they think you ought to reevaluate how much it means to you and consider the possibility that it might not be so important after all. Just because it is important to you at this moment doesn't automatcally make it actually important.

Maybe. But by the same token, when someone says "Shut up" they may mean -- indeed, often do mean -- that you should reevaluate whether you should be talking at all. Just because you feel like talking at that moment doesn't automatically mean that you should be.

If you see what I mean. There can be a clinical description of what the utterance is intended to do, even if the utterance is a rude or inflammatory way of saying it.

[livius drusus]

Well, it may mean that they think you ought to reevaluate how much it means to you and consider the possibility that it might not be so important after all. Just because it is important to you at this moment doesn't automatcally make it actually important.

That's the definition of dismissive, imo. It's also annoying because it assumes a lack of proportion which is clearly not in evidence. There are 20 page threads in EoG on the Kalaam Principle or some shit which strike me as massively unimportant. So I don't read them. End of problem.

Why would I post on them telling the people who take the discussion seriously that they should lighten up? And even if I did feel it necessary to make my lack of caring explicit in a thread I don't care about, what are the odds the people to whom I am addressing this sentiment will take it in due consideration? At the end of the day, isn't it just a dig?

One poster whose posts have very often made me think (if not write) "lighten up" has the initials V.M. Typically the subject is "discussion forum moderation" when that happens, and how people ought to behave on discussion forums.

Nice. I'm pretty sure I wasn't asking for a list of people you think should lighten up in my thread about how annoying I find people telling me to lighten up, but I'm glad you brought up the forum moderation thing because I've seen more lighten ups in administrative threads than in any other. And I've participated on such threads in a good half dozen forums because a) the general subject interests me, and b) I've expended serious dedication, sweat, tears and cash on specific forums, so how they work matters to me.

If you find that risible so be it, but I'm sorry, as far as I know, there is only one cure for giving a shit about the dynamics of online communities you care about and that's a nice, tautological stopping of caring.

In more general terms, if I think "lighten up," it's usually when I think someone is overly focussed on some detail which, regardless of what they decide, really doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference either way.

Do you ever say it?

[Godless Wonder]

If you see what I mean. Are you telling me to shut up? :D

Ok, this is boring anyway.

[Godless Wonder]

Nice. I'm pretty sure I wasn't asking for a list of people you think should lighten up in my thread about how annoying I find people telling me to lighten up,
Perfect example. Lighten the fuck up. You take what I wrote WAY too seriously.

[livius drusus]

Whatever, GW. Thanks for your participation.

[Godless Wonder]

Alright liv. Your in too serious a mood for the likes of me.

I'm bailing. Later. Don't think I don't see the comic irony of dismissive rolling eyes. Nice one. I mean it. Very humorous. :D

[livius drusus]

That was just in response to your post to Clutch and before you told me lighten up. After that, I decided a smiley was too lighthearted a reply.

I'm sorry if my OP or follow-up posts fooled you into thinking I was in a frolicsome mood. I'm not and your making a joke out of it knowing full well how I feel about that kind of thing sucks, imo.

[Ymir's blood]

Put me in the camp of "It's dismissive and insulting." When choosing your words, it is important to phrase things in such a way as to make the listener MORE likely to consider them seriously. If you really need to tell someone they are overreacting, do it with diplomacy, not flippancy.

[Lauri D]

I agree that the expression is generally dismissive and therefore insulting.

However, from personal experience I would proffer that it is not always intentional (doesn't mean it's not still dismissive/insulting, but for my own part I have usually tried to make an effort to understand/ascertain the spirit in which such a comment is intended, for the purpose of furthering dialogue. That's just me, YMMV.)

In my youth (ok fine, maybe just a couple years ago :blush: ) I told someone online to "take a chill pill". I simply hadn't stopped to think how dismissive and insulting such a comment could sound, and it was fully "my bad" even though I did not intend it to inflame.

I have no idea what I am attempting to contribute here. It just popped ino my head.

[Dingfod]

I don't necessarily think is purposely insulting to try to tell someone that the issue they're arguing isn't as important as they think it is. I know from experience this can as easily come from someone that agrees with you in principle as from someone that disagrees. That's all I'm saying.

[xorbie]

I disagree that it's either dismissive or insulting. Not necessarily anyway. A couple examples:

I insult someone (accidently), and they get offended. Then I tell them to "lighten up" (this is, of course, strictly hypothetical). This is me being an ass, and the correct move here is just to apologize.

I'm playing soccer and me and someone else get too into it (again, strictly hypothetical). We get a little too physical maybe, perhaps a little arguing. Some friends tell us to "lighten up." Good move on their part, even if I feel pissed off at them at the time. Don't they realize the crucial importance of me winning?

[viscousmemories]

One poster whose posts have very often made me think (if not write) "lighten up" has the initials V.M. Typically the subject is "discussion forum moderation" when that happens, and how people ought to behave on discussion forums.
Ironically, I feel exactly the same way about people who post almost every day across multiple forums for years on end about how Christians are out to ruin their lives. Different strokes for different folks, they say.

[viscousmemories]

I think the expression "lighten up" is automatically snide and disrespectful. I'm sure people occasionally use it without that intent, but so what? If someone says "fuck you" with the best intentions does that make it inoffensive? Not in my opinion. "Lighten up" is equivelant to saying "This topic is only as important as it is important to me, so anyone who thinks it's more important is flawed." Needless to say I disagree.

[pescifish]

The phrase is essentially telling the recipient that s/he isn't acceptable. Not just that his ideas and opinions are wrong, but that the person himself is somehow not to the standards of seriousness or humor that the speaker is imposing, or as Clutch points out: demanding. The recipient is being told his values, demeanor and personality is flawed according to the speaker. And it is usually done as a patronizing lecture, a taunt, a flippant remark in the face of an emotional situation.

This online crowd has a favored standard for interaction: attack the idea, not the person. I think "Lighten Up" falls in the second category. Whether the intent is to offend, to give the proverbial "loving" slap in the face or it was merely thoughtless, the ultimate result is that the recipient is being told to become a different person.

I'm sure there are plenty of situations where this is warranted, but I would think every single one of them requires diplomacy if the speaker has any sincere care for the person on the other end.

I'll second this:
When choosing your words, it is important to phrase things in such a way as to make the listener MORE likely to consider them seriously. If you really need to tell someone they are overreacting, do it with diplomacy, not flippancy.What he said! :2thumbsup:

[livius drusus]

Put me in the camp of "It's dismissive and insulting." When choosing your words, it is important to phrase things in such a way as to make the listener MORE likely to consider them seriously. If you really need to tell someone they are overreacting, do it with diplomacy, not flippancy.

Amen, brother. Not only is a more generous approach more likely to lead to positive interactions, but just on a basic level, why aim to irritate a person who you already think is overreacting?

[livius drusus]

However, from personal experience I would proffer that it is not always intentional (doesn't mean it's not still dismissive/insulting, but for my own part I have usually tried to make an effort to understand/ascertain the spirit in which such a comment is intended, for the purpose of furthering dialogue. That's just me, YMMV.)

I wouldn't say it's always intentional, but I do think it's pretty much always careless just because it doesn't make allowances for the way human passions run.

In my youth (ok fine, maybe just a couple years ago :blush: ) I told someone online to "take a chill pill". I simply hadn't stopped to think how dismissive and insulting such a comment could sound, and it was fully "my bad" even though I did not intend it to inflame.

Hmmm... A memory stirs... This was at IIDB, was it not? Your early, more impetuous days when you first began to post regularly. Anyway, yes, there are lots of "lighten up" variants. There's "relax", "get a life", "it's only a discussion board" and probably about a hundred more.

I have no idea what I am attempting to contribute here. It just popped ino my head.

I'm glad it did and I'm glad you posted it. :yup:

[livius drusus]

I don't necessarily think is purposely insulting to try to tell someone that the issue they're arguing isn't as important as they think it is. I know from experience this can as easily come from someone that agrees with you in principle as from someone that disagrees. That's all I'm saying.

But just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean it's not insulting if she tells you the things you care about are not worth caring about. See pesci's post, which I think elaborates on that point really well.

[livius drusus]

I disagree that it's either dismissive or insulting. Not necessarily anyway. A couple examples:

Can you think of an example on a discussion board when it's not dismissive or insulting, regardless of inent? I can see how the phrase might be okay when used to break up fisticuffs at a soccer game just as I could see Ronin's point about how it could be delicate when accompanied with a hug and a smile, but again, nobody has ever told me to lighten up irl, and I've been told to countless times on discussion boards, including in this very thread.

[maddog]

As with many things, I think it depends upon who says it and how it's said.

IRL, I have had my friends take me aside and good-naturedly chide me a bit when I am upset over something. And the something I'm upset over sometimes really is a mountain out of a molehill/tempest in a teapot/pick your cliche. They mean it in a caring way, to take me away from my upset and restore emotional equilibrium. Done in this way, I think it's not only harmless, but sometimes even beneficial.

IRL also, I have done this with my friends, too. Like right now, with my friend Bea. She calls me several times a week, all upset over her family. Her brother's wife is ill, and her brother, who is elderly, is not as mentally sharp as he once was. Their children, Donna, Michael, and Jan, have stayed with their parents, off and on, over the last two to three months. Bea calls me every few days, spouting off about how "Can you believe it?! Jan is still there! How can she have a practice [Jan is a therapist]? How can she leave her husband like that?" etc., etc. Bea thinks that Jack (her brother) and Ethel (his wife) should just suck it up and deal with everything on their own, because Bea has had to suck it up and deal with everything on her own without help, and without children running to help her and take care of her at every drop of a hat. These family things are painful; Bea has been dismissed and ignored all her life by her family. So she works herself up into a state by how solicitous her relatives are of other people, when they have never bothered to help her in the same way. I think that she is angry, jealous, and hurt. And those are real feelings. But I'm not sure how helpful it is to focus one's energy on that. Now, I've not actually used the words "lighten up," to Bea, but I do tell her that I don't like to see her make herself so anguished about what other people are doing, and that, in my experience, wishing for other people to change or for other people to be different is fruitless and self-destructive. In substance, "lighten up."

On an anonymous message board, where the people don't really know each other, I don't think it's offered in the same spirit at all. In that context, I think it is usually at least dismissive, if not insulting. I don't necessarily agree, however, that "the person winning an argument [n]ever makes the statement"; even someone who is winning an argument can get tired of an argument, and can get tired of an opponent who won't let go. There are usually better ways to say things. I might simply say, "Look, this argument is not as important to me as it is to you; I'm not going to engage on it any more." Or something like that.

Now, on THIS message board, where I feel like there are quite a few people here whom I DO know and who ARE my friends, I might feel quite differently if someone I know and respect told me, in the middle of an argument, to "lighten up." I might be taken aback, I might feel angry or insulted, but I also might reevaluate my own behavior. This would particularly be the case, I imagine, if the person telling me to "lighten up" was stepping in from the sidelines and not the person I was directly arguing with.

But, eh, that's just my take on it. YMMV.
#286

[maddog]

I don't necessarily think is purposely insulting to try to tell someone that the issue they're arguing isn't as important as they think it is. I know from experience this can as easily come from someone that agrees with you in principle as from someone that disagrees. That's all I'm saying.

But just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean it's not insulting if she tells you the things you care about are not worth caring about. See pesci's post, which I think elaborates on that point really well.
Hmm. Well, I'm not sure that "lighten up" necessarily means, "the things you care about are not worth caring about." I think it could also mean other things, like, "the issue they're arguing isn't as important as they think it is." Haven't you ever caught yourself getting worked up over something, and then told yourself, "Wait. In the total scheme of things, this is not 'that' important"? Haven't you ever caught yourself blowing something out of proportion? I certainly have. Even when something is "really important," sometimes it's also important not to blow a gasket or cause myself a heart attack over it. I can't do anything for this important cause if I make myself sick over it; then I become ineffective at anything. So passion can be redirected, or emotionalism can be toned down in favor of a more objective action.
#287

[RevDahlia]

Is it safe to come out now?

It doesn't bother you or you just move right along? Because the two are totally not mutually exclusive to me.
It really, truly doesn't bother me. A long time ago I had an "A-HA!" moment when I realized that the "lighten up" imperative says a lot more about the person criticizing me than it does about me.

I think that I have not experienced this on messageboards because I rarely get involved in serious debate, and it's happened IRL because I used to work and socialize with an extremely shallow, affected, blase crowd to whom any kind of intellectual commitment was perceived as weak or "uncool".
The phrase is essentially telling the recipient that s/he isn't acceptable. Not just that his ideas and opinions are wrong, but that the person himself is somehow not to the standards of seriousness or humor that the speaker is imposing, or as Clutch points out: demanding. The recipient is being told his values, demeanor and personality is flawed according to the speaker. And it is usually done as a patronizing lecture, a taunt, a flippant remark in the face of an emotional situation.
Ex-ACTLY. Well said.

[LadyShea]

Hmmm, I have no idea if I am guilty of saying "lighten up" or not. The only scenario where I can imagine saying it, is when an obvious smartass or joking comment of mine is taken totally seriously.

Now I have to go search to see A)If I have said it and B) in what context.

Edited to add: Okay, I took offense to someone telling me to lighten up here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1809482&highlight=lighten#post1809482) which was a serious thread about someone's health and saftey.

I told someone to lighten up when I made an obvious jest, and meant it only about me personally, and they got really pissed here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1481508&highlight=lighten#post1481508) . I basically said I would have a fling with a younger guy, but not a LTR.

The a couple other times that I didn't say "Lighten up" just like that, but I said I thought some third party should lighten up when discussing with someone else.

[pescifish]

Haven't you ever caught yourself getting worked up over something, and then told yourself, "Wait. In the total scheme of things, this is not 'that' important"? Haven't you ever caught yourself blowing something out of proportion? I certainly have. Agreed.

Which is why I continued with I'm sure there are plenty of situations where this is warranted, but I would think every single one of them requires diplomacy if the speaker has any sincere care for the person on the other end. and then repeated Ymir's blood's comment which says it best.


--------
Even when something is "really important," sometimes it's also important not to blow a gasket or cause myself a heart attack over it. I agree with this to the point of saying I think it's always important to avoid gasket blowing heart attacks, even in the most deadly serious of situations. I have a hard time imagining that a simple "Lighten Up" will really help someone step back from this edge, though.

[livius drusus]

This online crowd has a favored standard for interaction: attack the idea, not the person. I think "Lighten Up" falls in the second category. Whether the intent is to offend, to give the proverbial "loving" slap in the face or it was merely thoughtless, the ultimate result is that the recipient is being told to become a different person.

I'm sure there are plenty of situations where this is warranted, but I would think every single one of them requires diplomacy if the speaker has any sincere care for the person on the other end.

Yes. Precisely. Thank you, pesci.

I'd add that even if the speaker does not care for the person on the other end -- which is clearly the case in many of these interactions -- if they give a crap about having a reasonable discussion, or coming to an understanding, or even just keeping themselves out of a shitfest a little diplomacy would go a lot further than flippancy.

[livius drusus]

But I'm not sure how helpful it is to focus one's energy on that. Now, I've not actually used the words "lighten up," to Bea, but I do tell her that I don't like to see her make herself so anguished about what other people are doing, and that, in my experience, wishing for other people to change or for other people to be different is fruitless and self-destructive. In substance, "lighten up."

Honestly, I don't think those are substantially the same. The former is so much more engaged and genuine. I don't think I've ever heard anyone express the former sentiment in such reductionist and flippant terms as "lighten up".

I might simply say, "Look, this argument is not as important to me as it is to you; I'm not going to engage on it any more."


Man, if only... I'd have nothing but respect and appreciation for that.

[livius drusus]

Is it safe to come out now?

For the moment anyway.

It really, truly doesn't bother me. A long time ago I had an "A-HA!" moment when I realized that the "lighten up" imperative says a lot more about the person criticizing me than it does about me.

Oh how I wish such realizations would make the burning in my tummy go away. They have no effect at all, I'm afraid. Then again, I have a very low tolerance for frustration.

[LadyShea]

Well, after my actual searches as well as introspection, I can honestly say that "lighten up" can be offensive or not depending on the context and people involved.

Not very helpful, livius, I know.

[livius drusus]

Edited to add: Okay, I took offense to someone telling me to lighten up here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1809482&highlight=lighten#post1809482) which was a serious thread about someone's health and saftey.

Yeah, that one really sucked. Replace caring with desultory interest seems to have been the central message of that particular instance of lighten up.

I told someone to lighten up when I made an obvious jest, and meant it only about me personally, and they got really pissed here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1481508&highlight=lighten#post1481508) . I basically said I would have a fling with a younger guy, but not a LTR.

He had no comment on your lighten up, though. He seems to have ignored your reply and posted to the general topic, which is pretty much MO when dealing with lighten ups.

The a couple other times that I didn't say "Lighten up" just like that, but I said I thought some third party should lighten up when discussing with someone else.

Did you get a response, successful or not?

[RevDahlia]

It really, truly doesn't bother me. A long time ago I had an "A-HA!" moment when I realized that the "lighten up" imperative says a lot more about the person criticizing me than it does about me.

Oh how I wish such realizations would make the burning in my tummy go away. They have no effect at all, I'm afraid. Then again, I have a very low tolerance for frustration.
I think the crucial difference here is that you've had this problem on DBs and I've had it in meatspace. On a discussion board, those are your ideas out there, all naked and bald, cut loose from social ritual and allowed to stand or fall on their own merits. When someone barks at you to "lighten up" it's like they're not only shitting on your attitude or ideas but your entire mental process. (I hate the second person.. why are English pronouns so fucked up?)

It's easier to dismiss other people's bullshit in person. "You just told me to lighten up, sure, but you're a big dumb mook who doesn't know your ass from a hole in the ground, and your ex-girlfriend told everyone you're a premature ejaculator, and there's only so far you can go on cool hair -- therefore, I can only conclude that you're full of it. I win! Ha-ha!" I would never actually say such a thing, but I've thought similar things, many a time.

[xorbie]

I disagree that it's either dismissive or insulting. Not necessarily anyway. A couple examples:

Can you think of an example on a discussion board when it's not dismissive or insulting, regardless of inent? I can see how the phrase might be okay when used to break up fisticuffs at a soccer game just as I could see Ronin's point about how it could be delicate when accompanied with a hug and a smile, but again, nobody has ever told me to lighten up irl, and I've been told to countless times on discussion boards, including in this very thread.

Depends on the discussion board.

[LadyShea]

I told someone to lighten up when I made an obvious jest, and meant it only about me personally, and they got really pissed here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1481508&highlight=lighten#post1481508) . I basically said I would have a fling with a younger guy, but not a LTR.

He had no comment on your lighten up, though. He seems to have ignored your reply and posted to the general topic, which is pretty much MO when dealing with lighten ups.

Ya know, I think I did mean to be offensive/brush him off with this one. I seriously didn't understand his angry reaction and did, in fact, want him to lighten up. I certainly don't do this often, so don't necessarily feel guilty about it, though.

The a couple other times that I didn't say "Lighten up" just like that, but I said I thought some third party should lighten up when discussing with someone else.

Did you get a response, successful or not?

Hmm...no, it was more like if you and I were having a discussion and I said to you "I wish So and So would lighten the fuck up since he/she keeps harping on <mundane topic X>". It wasn't said to So and So at all.

[livius drusus]

"You just told me to lighten up, sure, but you're a big dumb mook who doesn't know your ass from a hole in the ground, and your ex-girlfriend told everyone you're a premature ejaculator, and there's only so far you can go on cool hair -- therefore, I can only conclude that you're full of it. I win! Ha-ha!" I would never actually say such a thing, but I've thought similar things, many a time.

:chuckle: That's wise, but I can't help but hope you get a chance to use the cool hair line someday.

[livius drusus]

Can you think of an example on a discussion board when it's not dismissive or insulting, regardless of inent? I can see how the phrase might be okay when used to break up fisticuffs at a soccer game just as I could see Ronin's point about how it could be delicate when accompanied with a hug and a smile, but again, nobody has ever told me to lighten up irl, and I've been told to countless times on discussion boards, including in this very thread.

Depends on the discussion board.

Okaaay... Again, can you think of an example of a discussion board where it was not dismissive or insulting, regardless of intent?

[Beth]

I suppose I have said to lighten up before. Mainly joking, usually with a smile. I mean, going apeshit about a jar of peanut butter on the counter is just wrong. Usually I say "chill", "chill out", or "take a chill pill, dude". It is all meant to calm down rediculous tirade or someone who is screwing up the nice time with too much anal-ness or assholishness. I have been told to lighten up, depending on the rediculousness of my upset, I will either insantly calm down or instantly get mad. I don't mind being told to lighten up if I am just being anal about something stupid, but it is upsetting and insulting and dismissive if it is said over something that I have a legitimate reason to be upset about.

I have meanly said to lighten up IRL and intended it to be a snide comment, but it really is not a common part of my everyday vocabulary, but I am sure I will now have to fight using it; I have had a compusion to say some things are "so gay" for the past few days. Fighting the impulse, but it is there.

[Beth]

Can you think of an example on a discussion board when it's not dismissive or insulting, regardless of inent? I can see how the phrase might be okay when used to break up fisticuffs at a soccer game just as I could see Ronin's point about how it could be delicate when accompanied with a hug and a smile, but again, nobody has ever told me to lighten up irl, and I've been told to countless times on discussion boards, including in this very thread.

Depends on the discussion board.

Okaaay... Again, can you think of an example of a discussion board where it was not dismissive or insulting, regardless of intent?I think I have said it to neocons before, jokingly, after I upset them with my "liberalism". Usually with a cheesy grin.

Oh, but I don't use the exclamation point. Using the exclamation point takes away any jokingness of the phrase. It becomes more of a command.

[livius drusus]

Ya know, I think I did mean to be offensive/brush him off with this one. I seriously didn't understand his angry reaction and did, in fact, want him to lighten up. I certainly don't do this often, so don't necessarily feel guilty about it, though.

He he... Well, I don't think guilt is called for, necessarily, since you weren't being intentionally offensive. I bet you'll think about it a little differently now, though. ;)

Hmm...no, it was more like if you and I were having a discussion and I said to you "I wish So and So would lighten the fuck up since he/she keeps harping on <mundane topic X>". It wasn't said to So and So at all.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's a different thing. That's more like expressing frustration in private.

Edit: I totally misread your first line. You did mean to be offensive! Shame, shame on you. Okay maybe that's a bit excessive, but yes, imo, it's a sucky thing to do.

[viscousmemories]

This online crowd has a favored standard for interaction: attack the idea, not the person.
This is a very true and important point, I think. Not surprisingly, the Freethought Forum seems to attract a lot of people who value thoughtful interaction over frivolous banter or mindless drivel. Not that friviolty or drivel are completely unvalued or unappreciated, but the general preference when it comes to more serious topics does seem to be for well-reasoned responses.

And since ad hominem fallacies are a common component of and disruption to more heated debates, it seems reasonable to expect that people who value rational discourse will make an effort to avoid directing their criticism of an idea toward the person expressing it, as you said.

On the other hand most personal relationships involve assessing someone's personality and character, and using that information to decide how to interact with them. And depending on the circumstances it can be appropriate to tell someone with whom you have a personal relationship what you think about them.

The problem with our interactions in these fora (since they essentially combine aspects of both types of relationship) is that some people don't seem to know when the one manner of relating is appropriate and the other isn't. Or they let their emotion get the better of them and deliberately eschew diplomacy in favor of getting a dig in, as I do from time to time.

I think "Lighten up!" in the middle of a heated discussion or debate is almost always a result of the latter, if not a fundamental disregard for courtesy to begin with.

[xorbie]

Can you think of an example on a discussion board when it's not dismissive or insulting, regardless of inent? I can see how the phrase might be okay when used to break up fisticuffs at a soccer game just as I could see Ronin's point about how it could be delicate when accompanied with a hug and a smile, but again, nobody has ever told me to lighten up irl, and I've been told to countless times on discussion boards, including in this very thread.

Depends on the discussion board.

Okaaay... Again, can you think of an example of a discussion board where it was not dismissive or insulting, regardless of intent?

Sure. Any discussion board in which people knew each other fairly well, for starters.

[wildernesse]

I have probably used "lighten up" before. Offline, probably in a situation where a group of friends is talking and some subject comes up where people are on different sides and a lovely evening among friends threatens to spiral down into venom and oneupmanship. "Let's all just lighten up. Deep breaths, now." is not meant to be necessarily dismissive of their ideas, but a reminder that we're all friends and can we stop with the pounding of the table and the raised voices before we start calling each other babykillers or godbots? Please? Can someone talk about American Idol, even though I hate it? But then, I really hate sitting uncomfortably while someone's snide comment about the news starts a firestorm--if it means that I insult the people going at it hammer and tongs over whether or not Walmart is good for local economies or the UGA cheerleading coach should have been fired, so be it.

[Dingfod]

That's what I've been talking about. If a friend told them to lighten up, most people would probably think they're just trying to bring the volume down a notch. I've experienced that sort of request to lighten up as much or more than someone trying to use it to stop debate or dismiss someone else's ideas. Good gawd, liv, how many times have you interjected a "cool it" post in a thread?

[livius drusus]

I actually don't like "cool it" either. When I have posted something along those lines, I was either specific (please avoid personal insults) or a general comment about the nature of the thread (this kind of thing is icky). The wording, the approach, these things matter both in terms of how likely people are to respond positively and how they themselves add or detract to the tenor of the thread.

It's like pesci and Ymir's blood and maddog and others have said: if you care about the people in the discussion or even the discussion itself, you have choose your words and seek the best possible outcome. Pithy, thoughtless imperatives don't cut it, imo.

[LadyShea]

I totally misread your first line. You did mean to be offensive! Shame, shame on you. Okay maybe that's a bit excessive, but yes, imo, it's a sucky thing to do.

Yeah, I did. Basically, I could have stated my opinion in some kind of straightforward and serious manner, or I could have said it all in one sentence, a bit more sarcastically. I chose the sarcasm and he got all offended. He never did explain if he was offended at my choice of wording, or my opinion...either way he basically said "fuck you" and it pissed me off.

That's why I think I meant to offend him with the lighten up. I went on to the serious explanation of my opinion anyway though.

[Barefoot Bree]

*raises hand a little tentatively*

What about a situation such as a light-hearted thread where people are joking around, and somebody tells a joke or a throw-away funny line, and someone else comes in with "That's not funny! My coworker's sister was taken to the cleaners, and it took 5 years and bankruptcy blah blah blah...."?

Would a little "lighten up, dude, it's just a joke" be appropriate or acceptable in those circumstances?

*stands bravely waiting for the rotten tomatoes*

[livius drusus]

The only thing I see in that post requiring tomato intervention is your desperate need to be acquainted with the /me hack.

/me types /me types.
Other than that, I think it's an understandable use of the phrase, but that doesn't change its dismissive nature, does it? I mean, wouldn't you basically be saying "your humor is deficient" by telling the person who took offense to lighten up?

That wasn't so bad, was it? :huggle:

[pescifish]

Hmmm, good point, Barefoot Bree.
That's almost a classic case where it is a flippant insensitive, yet probably effective, remark. You already know the recipient is thinking of some tragedy or tough thing. It seems rather hurtful to kick the person in the head at that point, IMO.

I agree that everyone should try to match tone within a thread and the person interjecting something heavy in a light hearted thread isn't showing much sensitivity or consideration, either. But I think a PM would be more appropriate or at least something a bit more sensitive.

[Ronin]

This is a very true and important point, I think. Not surprisingly, the Freethought Forum seems to attract a lot of people who value thoughtful interaction over frivolous banter or mindless drivel. Not that friviolty or drivel are completely unvalued or unappreciated, but the general preference when it comes to more serious topics does seem to be for well-reasoned responses.

:scared:

Damn...that is good to know, vm.

[livius drusus]

I was eyeing my smilies with trepidation there for a second until he clarified. :giggle:

[viscousmemories]

:scared:

Damn...that is good to know, vm.
Yeah, yeah, liv already told me that first paragraph sounded pompous. :P

Anyway my point was that I imagine people come to a 'freethought' forum to freely share their thoughts, so I'm not surprised that we seem to have a built-in standard of attacking thoughts and not the people who express them. The problem is one persons frivolity and drivel is another persons serious business, and I often see "Lighten up!" used as an evasive maneuver when that conflict of interests arises.

When some people are losing a debate they seem to prefer accusing their opponent of "making mountains out of molehills" or "taking themselves too seriously". Most of the time I've seen the expression used it has been for that reason or the general "y'all are stupid for discussing something I'm not interested in" use, when a non-participant in a thread pops in to say it.

[viscousmemories]

"Let's all just lighten up. Deep breaths, now." is not meant to be necessarily dismissive of their ideas, but a reminder that we're all friends and can we stop with the pounding of the table and the raised voices before we start calling each other babykillers or godbots? Please?
I think this is one of the biggest reasons comparisons between online forums and houses, parties, etc. are doomed to failure. This is a public forum, not a private gathering. We aren't all friends here, we don't all like and/or respect each other or each other's opinions, and we don't all agree on what tone and content is appropriate in any given discussion. As much as I appreciate (and share, really) your "can't we all just get along?" attitude I'm intimately familiar with how little most people like being told how they can and/or should relate to each other. In my experience trying to intervene in others' disputes is a recipe for disaster.

[Sweetie]

The problem is one persons frivolity and drivel is another persons serious business, and I often see "Lighten up!" used as an evasive maneuver when that conflict of interests arises.

It is an evasive maneuver usually making use of social pressure like several other maneuvers of the same caliber.

If you're told to lighten up and you're the minority, continuing to argue, arguing the "lighten up", all will serve to make you look bad. It all depends on an issue of popularity usually and depending on those factors, you're usually backed into a corner.

I would say that it's a highly successful maneuver, it does serve to make the other look bad, anal, bitchy and unnecessarily arguementative no matter what, even if they can hold their ground on the issue.

Usually it's either all agree to ignore it or it serves to end the discussion, or at least get it off track.

[Shelli]

I can't stand being told to "lighten up" and I don't say it to others. I find it demeaning, as if to say that my thoughts and feelings aren't important. Well, they may not be to someone else, but they are to me.

Or other times, I AM, in fact, already "lightened up" and said person just doesn't get my sense of humor. And this is my fault? :funface:

[godfry n. glad]

"You got somethin' 'gainst blacks, dude?"

"Hey, I have red hair and blue eyes. I don't tan unless my freckles run together and the term "fishbelly" is fairly accurate. I can't get much lighter."

"It's already a 'work in progress'....see the gray hairs? You're adding to it."

[Shelli]

:chuckle:

[Pinecone]

Okaaay... Again, can you think of an example of a discussion board where it was not dismissive or insulting, regardless of intent?

I have read replies on forums where the person told to lighten up, did indeed respond with something like "Yeah, I know I get riled up about this topic." They did not appear on cyber paper to have been embittered or offended, maybe even apologetic. I would tend to go along with them deciding for themselves if they felt the comment were dismissive or insulting to them.

That said. "I" think it crosses the bounds in forum relationships. I can see no reason why everyone shouldn't be allowed to express their own feelings about a topic, (without the 'feelings police' telling them how to feel), because well... what else is a forum for?

And that said...I was very irritated to learn that some people actually go to places like Amazon and recipe sites and trash the books, product reviews and recipes without having read them, bought them or made them. They just think it's 'fun' to bring down the ratings of anything getting a good review. :glare: A new kind of trolling. Sigh. So, I would have to stress, express their own REAL feelings.

[livius drusus]

I have read replies on forums where the person told to lighten up, did indeed respond with something like "Yeah, I know I get riled up about this topic." They did not appear on cyber paper to have been embittered or offended, maybe even apologetic. I would tend to go along with them deciding for themselves if they felt the comment were dismissive or insulting to them.
I would as well under most circumstances, but telling people to lighten up comes with inherent pressures. If the response is to take offense, no matter how justified that response is, how insulting or dismissive the lighten upper meant to be, the lighten uppee is going to come off like the asshole.

So just the fact that the response was recognition that they could stand to chill a little doesn't mean they weren't embittered or offended. If they say they're bitter or offended, the lightenuporists win.

(Interesting bump, Shelli. Search engine spider, I presume? :grin: )

[Clutch Munny]

(Interesting bump, Shelli. Search engine spider, I presume? :grin: )

No, it was vm's fault. See here (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365133#post365133) &ff.

[livius drusus]

Firefox? Feel funny? Fabricate fabulosity?

[Clutch Munny]

Feral felines, actually.

[Shelli]

(Interesting bump, Shelli. Search engine spider, I presume? :grin: ):giggle:

My past bumping of old threads was due to that, ja, but this time, it was an :ff: member looking at an old thread that decided me to wander on in. :yup:

[Dingfod]

:doorhitass:

[Stormlight]

Incidentally I found that often people who tell others to "lighten up" are the same that bitch and moan about political correctness ("OMG, teh PC police!!!1!").

[Shelli]

Oh... lighten up! :glare:

[Pinecone]

Yeah!! EVERBODY the shittin shit Lighten UP!!!

I'm mean Geeze!!! I am like PAYING for this internet service! All of you little cybery peoples out there could at LEAST match my mood and be happy happy when I'm happy.:linedance:
and serious serious when I am! :glare: :glare: :glare:
I'm thinking about switching servers if this keeps up!

[Shelli]

:giggles:

[Sock Puppet]

I rarely say "lighten up." Since I fully intend such a directive to be demeaning and insulting, I'd rather make it more obvious, such as "Untwist your panties."

I rarely tell a friend to chill out, but when I do, I prefer to say it in private.

[Leesifer]

Yeah! Thanks for that PM, Sock.

You chill out!