Horse Question

[livius drusus]

I was watching Animal Cops the other day and there was a horse with a really big abcess on his hoof. The guy had to dig in there pretty deep to reach it and drain the nasties.

I know there are horse owners on this board (:wave: warrenly), and other generally knowledgeable veterinary types, so I thought I'd ask instead of motivating my lazy ass to look it up. How do abcesses happen? How do they get so deep in a hoof? What happens once you drain them? Does the hoof just grow back into the hole or is the horse left with stigmata?

Enquiring minds want to know. :teach:

[LadyShea]

I remember my pony had an infection of some kind in her hoof. The underside of the hoof is not bone hard, it's sort of like cartilege and therefore prone to gouges, cuts, infections, foreign object invasion, etc. I had to clean them out with a hoof pick. Also, standing in water/mud/shit as many abused or neglected animals do, it's a miracle their hooves don't just fall off. Just like your toinails can get infected and absessed.

[Petra]

Yup. What LS said.

The abcess may have come about through a cut that got infected, or maybe a stone getting lodged too deeply into the soft part of the hoof (called the frog). It's important to look after your horses hooves, keeping them clean and dry.

[Beth]

Yeah, I used to help with a neighbor's horse. I would clean out packed mud and scrape hooves, file them, and treat them with some oil mixture. They were a very important part of the horse's care.

[inland wave]

Yes to all the above. The ground is staturated right now and it is very hard to keep the horses out of areas of water. I am also having an abcess issue as the hair around the hoof stays wet causing the skin to split and get infected. It's time to stall him and call the Vet. Problem the Vet can't see him until Friday. So I will use triple antibiotic cream and keep him dry until the Vet gets there.
Your question-- the bottom soft side of the hoof is very prone to abcess and it is quite painful. The horse is stalled up usually for a week and rechecked by the Vet to make sure things are progressing as they should. Usually the horse is out of comission for a couple of weeks maybe longer depending on the severity of the abcess. The horses hooves should be cleaned everyday... and before and after a ride. This is to ensure that the hooves are in good condition and picking out debris will lessen the risk of anything being embeded in the frog or in other soft parts of the hoof.

[JoeP]

The real Horse Question is, should he marry her?

[Dingfod]

Just horsing around, are ya?

I'm certainly no expert. We have three horses around Rancho Estrogeno. I also worked for a small and large animal vet back when I was 16. I got to see a few cases of some nasty foot problems in horses, from foundering to abcesses.

Abcesses can form when a stone bruise fails to reabsorb or from a puncture wound of the hoof. Most bruises do reabsorb, but some do get infected and form a blood and pus filled abcess. Hooves are not completely solid any more than a human's toenail or fingernail, the sole, or inner part is softer than the hoof wall. The trimming tool, while sharp enough, is far from razor sharp but it is sharp enough to trim away enough hoof material to drain the abcesses through a small hole. An iodine foot soak a day and clean stall bedding and it should heal right up in anywhere from a few days to a month or more, depending on the size of the abcess.

How deep? I've seen them trim anywhere from a half inch to up to an inch into the sole to get to the bruise or abcess. The pus and blood usually drain right out, the hoof is treated with iodine and the horse is put up in a stall with clean bedding straw or wood shavings for a few days, the blood clots and they're on the road to mending. Sometimes they pack the hole with iodine treated gauze, most often not. They usually heal up pretty fast after draining the abcess. Ever wonder how a horse can stand out in the snow in Montana or Wyoming without freezing their spindly legs or feet? They have exceptionally good blood circulation in their legs and feet, which helps them heal.

~~~
My horse problem (other than too many horses on a small piece of land):
I've got a horse that won't stay out of fences. He's got a wound in need of treatment right now. He was hung up in the neighbor's fence this morning. This horse needs to go to a good home, he's 24 years old and never gets ridden any more. I'm sure there's some little kid wanting to learn to ride that could get a few more years out of the old fellow.

[Dingfod]

The part they trim out to drain an abcess is called the sole. Please don't cut into the frog, it'll bleed.
The Frog - the triangular, spongy portion in the center of the underside of the hoof- absorbs shock - aids in pumping of blood to interior structures of hoof.
The Sole - the concave, insensitive underside of the hoof - protects the sensitive sole inside - may be bruised or punctured by treading on stones or nails.
http://equisearch.com/care/hoofcare/hoof.gif

[Dingfod]

The real Horse Question is, should he marry her?BPC and CPB, eh?

[livius drusus]

Fascinating posts, everyone. Thank you very much for filling me in on the details, inland wave and warrenly. The horse -- a very handsome chestnut gelding -- was indeed kept in disgusting conditions (not surprising, given the Animal Cops were there).

It's amazing those hooves were still attached to that poor horse given how much care they require even under normal circumstances.

[lady cop]

i LOVE those animal cops!! :gallop: :retrieve: :cat: :rooster: here is Shaguar's horse "Tosca" Tosca is a hunter, but injured his pastern, so Shaguar donated him to a facility that helps disabled people to ride. Tosca was also to be utilized at stud, but doesn't seem interested, Shaguar insists he's gay and will be found in dog food soon. (he is just kidding!)

[livius drusus]

Well my God, what did he expect?! He named the horse after an Italian opera lady, after all. ;)

P.S. - Gorgeous creature.

[lady cop]

Well my God, what did he expect?! He named the horse after an Italian opera lady, after all. ;)

P.S. - Gorgeous creature.
you're right! it's Tosca's revenge LOL...he is a stunningly beautiful animal. hard to ride, and 17 hands high, but exceedingly gentle with the disabled, as though he senses their fragility.

[lady cop]

ohhhh, i know i should not, but Shaguar will be back thursday....so let me say, he has to keep Tosca because i am NEVER going to learn to drive on the wrong side of the road and will need a horse! Shaguar bravely says he'll teach me...there are not enough tranquilizers on the planet, trust me. i am supposed to sit on the wrong side, drive on the wrong side, and shift with my left hand? HAHAHAHAHA...honey i hope you have more courage than it took to jump out of airplanes!!

[Petra]

Shit, that's a beautiful horse. :drool:


I used to love hunting. Tally-ho!

[Petra]

Ok, I got a pic or two, too...

1st one is Callan. He was the love of my life. I think I was about 11 or 12 in that pic.


2nd one is Charlie, which was a horse I rode in the States. never could get used to western riding, so he was always ridden bareback. I hated those fucking armchairs you Statesiders would sit on yer horses in! I'm an english rider, through and through. I was 14 in that pic and it was the mid-late seventies, so don't give me no grief about the shirt I'm wearing, k.


Callan was half Arab, quarter thoroughbred and quarter Standard bred. (Standards are used for trotting - y'know, trot racing).

Charlie was a half Arab, half Quarter Horse.

I have a black and white pic here, too, of my dad and his horse when he was a lad, back in, like, the fifties, or something. Dad's horse was called Amigo, and I got to meet Amigo when we bought Callan. Amigo was a beautiful Palomino, which is hard to tell from this old pic. And dad looks like a real dorky kid. lol.


Edit: ok, added Amigo.

[Shaguar]

OK I am back from Belle France, and would like to say straight away that Tosca was already named when I had him, obviously I would have named him Steel or some other highly masculine name, as it is he is being renamed Elton becasue of his non-performance with the fairer sex.
Which brings me to my next point they say owners become like their animals, ooh err :D

[livius drusus]

Beautiful horses all, luna. I love how Charlie's coat is kind of mottled. Oh, and yeah, your dad looks like a total dweeb.

Well of course you're going to blame the previous owner, Shaguar. I'd do the same in your place. :tmevil:

P.S. - How was France? Where d'ya go?

[Dingfod]

Previously owned horses tend to come saddled [pun intended] with names, sometimes not very good ones.

Our names, registered names:

Ace, Lomas Ace - 24 year old quarterhorse gelding
Howie, Painted by Chic - 6 year old paint gelding
...uh...
...uh...

inland wave, what is Angel's full name and Howie's Pinto Assn name? I can't remember.

Damn, all of the sudden I'm suffering from CRS (Can't Remember Shit). Must be old age.

[lady cop]

since he's not at his pc Livius, i am going to tell on him....Shaguar managed to singlehandedly shut down the entire Paris traffic system, cutting straight across a six lane intersection in the wrong direction, on a red light.AND he's quite proud of himself! yes, this is the man who's going to teach me to drive in the UK. :yup:

[livius drusus]

Holy crap, and he survived to boast about it? What the hell car was he driving?

[lady cop]

a van, but he should have been in a sherman tank! evidently it became quite a festival of various international hand signals! he LIVES to annoy the french. :D

[Shaguar]

Oui, I am back, LD it was a large van with a Union Jack on it ! Obviously as soon as I showed any aggression the French handed me Alsace-Lorraine and let me across the light.

Lunachick did you hunt in NZ? if so why the did , have they banned it there as well. Come this friday all hunting with hounds is banned in the England and Wales. Today they reckon every hunt in the country will be out, had a mooch about this morning but only saw one in the far distance, the passing of an era I am afraid.

Hve to concur on the American Western Saddles I am afraid, perhaps it was just my fat arse but I have never been able to get on with them, they are however good for starting kids off to ride.

I will keep eveyone up to date on Tosca/Elton's "performance", the charity I gave him to are still going to try and breed off him, so we may yet find out his orientation in matters sexual.

[livius drusus]

:shaguar:

:P

[Dingfod]

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a saddle made that would be comfortable enough to get me to ride a horse any distance at all. Okay, at one time I did have my eye on one of these. (http://www.tuckersaddles.com/Saddles/Products.asp?saddle=Montreal)

[Beth]

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a saddle made that would be comfortable enough to get me to ride a horse any distance at all. Okay, at one time I did have my eye on one of these. (http://www.tuckersaddles.com/Saddles/Products.asp?saddle=Montreal)I prefer riding without the saddle. Much better workout on the thighs and fun as hell because there is a rush from trying to stay on.

[Dingfod]

My daughter Roxy is really good at riding with or without a saddle, whatever the gait. I'd rather take a beating with a shot-filled rubber hose than ride a horse bareback.

[lady cop]

:shaguar:

:P
THAT"S IT! PERFECT! BRILLIANT! :giggle: :chuckle: :bbed:

[Gurdur]

Camels suffer much worse from the foot problem than do horses; they get infected pseudo-tumours in their feet very easily, and it can very easily lead to having to put down the camel, since they respond to treatment much less than do horses.

[Petra]

Lunachick did you hunt in NZ? if so why the did , have they banned it there as well. Come this friday all hunting with hounds is banned in the England and Wales. Today they reckon every hunt in the country will be out, had a mooch about this morning but only saw one in the far distance, the passing of an era I am afraid.Yeah, I heard all about the animal rights drama in the UK. There appeared to be more hullabaloo about it than there was for the war, I'm lead to believe. Although I can't quite remember who lead me to believe that.

Over here, we hunt hare as there are no fox to be seen anywhere. It was always such a great romp across the countryside. A good, hard, challenging ride on a winter's day from dawn till dusk! Loved it. I believe some Hunt Clubs don't hunt live animals anymore, but I'm not sure how that works. It's been about ...um....25 or so years since I last rode in one. Here's some pretty pictures: http://www.tim.co.nz/xCatalog/xcatalog.aspx?category=5&subcat=33 :)

Hve to concur on the American Western Saddles I am afraid, perhaps it was just my fat arse but I have never been able to get on with them, they are however good for starting kids off to ride.

Nah, start 'em off bareback! My dad wouldn't buy me a saddle until I could do everything on horseback without a saddle. I rode my first hunt without a saddle. Of course, Callan threw me off in the first twenty minutes or so and knocked me out cold. lol. But whenever I was doing riding courses at the Equestrian Centre or at Pony Club, the instructors always commented on my deep seat and balance because of that training. Many years later, when talking about horses with dad, he admitted to me that the real reason I wasn't allowed a saddle till I could do everything bareback was because my parents couldn't afford to buy the saddle! hehehe. It was great training, though - no doubt about it. :)

I will keep eveyone up to date on Tosca/Elton's "performance", the charity I gave him to are still going to try and breed off him, so we may yet find out his orientation in matters sexual.

He is gorgeous, Shaguar. Stunning. Drool worthy. I'd love to have a horse again, and one as handsome as Tosca would fair make me cream, I tell ya. I'm so jealous!


As for your french driving, man, perhaps you could enter the worst driver on France competition. You could be a winner!



(Great smilie, liv! :D)

[inland wave]

Pinto Association name for Howie is" Sincerely Yours"
With Paint Association name of "Painted by Chic"
Angel is only with the Paint Association with the name of "Parrs Lucky Angel"
Ace is just the run of the mill Quarter Horse.
Angel will be going back to her previous Owner. She is in foal and he wants the baby. Plus we really don't have the acerage for them so, it ends up working out for the best. I would like to find a place that would take Ace and work him with the disabled. He is so bomb proof and he can still work, he just needs light weights or children to ride him. He is old and he has been on the cattle trail one to many times. We have coddled him, ridden him and given him a good home.
It is really going to be hard to let him go. I need a horse that can keep up with Howie, that is already trained and ready to go.

[Clutch Munny]

Beautiful horses, all. Thanks for sharing.

I learned to ride bareback, too, luna. On Shetland ponies, when I was just a wee barnacle. (Sometimes without a bridle, for that matter.) Then onto the quarter-horses, at which point I was plenty glad to have a saddle, just to make it easier to swing up and swing down. Actually I shouldn't say horses, plural, because I'd really only ride one of our big horses as a kid. My dad's mare was batshit crazy -- not mean, just way high strung -- and I wanted no part of her. Turn on a dime and leave eight cents change, but crazy as loon.

[Petra]

Ooh, my first horse, Toby, was a little one. A Welsh Mountain Pony. He was a killer, though. Dangerous l'il bastadd! He behaved only three days in the six months I owned him: the day we bought him, the day we sold him, and the day I accidentally tied him up to an electric fence. :o

He was a thoroughly nasty beast. He'd try to slam your head into the concrete stable wall by bolting full tilt at the stable, then stopping dead about an inch from the wall. And you couldn't bring him round - he had a hard mouth, and would put his head way up in the air with the bit in his teeth and go like the clappers! You'd have to let go and bounce down the hill on yer arse well beforehand, or you'd be history.

And he used to try to roll on top of you if you were riding across a stream or large puddle or something. And if there was one near, you had no choice about whether you were going near the water or not. Again, you'd have to leap off before he could get you caught under him and under the water.

To catch him, it took a few of us with stock whips to round him into a corral, then take some wood and slide it in to trap him into a smaller and smaller place. And if he managed to get behing the whips - look out! He'd bolt right at you, chasing you around, trying to take chucks out of your back with his teeth. Never trip over!

Flip, he was mean. I had him when I was about 10. I mean, Callan could be a handful when he wanted to be, but when he bucked you off, he'd stop and look at you with a "well, what are you doing down there, hehehe" look, but he was not mean. If I ever went to Callans' paddock just to talk and have a wee girlie cry or something, Callan would nestle his head into my chest or on my shoulder, and I'd sometimes feel that if he could've given me a hug, he would. Toby on the other hand would've taken the opportunity to bury me. Fucker!


Where did you grow up, Clutch? Did you live on a ranch, or something? Do you still have anything to do with horses?

[Petra]

I would like to find a place that would take Ace and work him with the disabled. He is so bomb proof and he can still work, he just needs light weights or children to ride him. He is old and he has been on the cattle trail one to many times. We have coddled him, ridden him and given him a good home.
It is really going to be hard to let him go. I need a horse that can keep up with Howie, that is already trained and ready to go.

Callan was such a lovely natured horse, too. While he was full o'beans as they say, when he was young, and used to keep me on my toes - he was a gentle and mellow horse that would almost mother his riders in his older age. He was finally retired to the Riding for the Disabled Assn (not by me, I had to sell him when my parents divorced, unfortunately).

I did get to see him again before he died, about 6-7 years ago. And I spoke to the RDA folks about him, and they said he was very loved horse there. So I was able to show Zoe my old horse and give him one last big horsie hug before he popped his clogs a couple of months later. I was very happy to hear that his life had continued to be a good one after he left my care. I don't think I've ever loved anything or anyone quite like I loved Callan.

[Dingfod]

That is a good idea, lunachick. I'll have to find out if Ace could be donated to The Right Path Riding Academy in Drumright, Oklahoma, the closest handicapped and therapeutic riding facility; they are the only one in the state with indoor facilities. Ace would be especially good with someone leading him. I've seen Roxy lead him in from the pasture with her invisible lead rope several times. She put his halter on, gave it a tug as she started walking with her arm out as though holding a lead rope. He stayed right at her shoulder. Just to show she was in command, she stopped several times and so did he. One of the reasons we bought him was we saw him do his best to stay underneath Roxy when she was a beginning rider. He's just too old and too prone to lameness to ride with anyone very heavy or for much distance any more. Roxy might be more apt to part with him if she knew he was going to be loved and cared for and go to good use, even if we didn't get any money for him.

[Petra]

Hey, warrenly...

I would like to find a place that would take Ace and work him with the disabled.

:wink:

[Dingfod]

I thought that had been brought up before. As some of you might have suspected, inland wave is Mrs. Warrenly... or I'm Mr. Wave... or something like that.

[livius drusus]

:hiya: Mrs. Warrenly. You weren't kidding about the inland part. :)

[RevDahlia]

Hi, Mrs. Warrenly!

I love horses but I'm not a very good rider. Started too late, I guess. My wicked stepmother is big into dressage and polocrosse, and she has a motley assortment of equines in various states of ridability. The only ones I feel okay getting on are Mirage, who is a stunningly lovely Cleveland Bay/thoroughbred mare with a patient and magnanimous character, and Felix, a chestnut thoroughbred polo pony with a blaze shaped like South America and a lot of irrational phobias.

Went to the San Antonio Stock Show last weekend, and damn were there some wonderful animals. I had one all picked out -- this really homely palomino Quarter Horse gelding named Gogo. He had great strength of character, I could tell, also endearing blond eyelashes. My daddy wouldn't buy him for me, though! :crying:

To be fair, Dad did ask what I planned to do with a cow pony, when I do not own any cows or a suitable place to put a horse. I felt that this was nitpicking, but in the end reason prevailed.

[livius drusus]

I rode a dressage horse once. A beautiful, gracious Arabian mare who was about a hundred orders of magnitude smarter and classier than I. I've never felt quite so oafish around an animal as I did with her. She was nice about it, mind you, but I'm pretty sure she nickered behind my back.

[inland wave]

The people that live next door to us took in a pair of Arabians from someone in Sapulpa. They are beautiful horses. The mare is great, nice attitude and she is rideable. The gelding on the other hand is very high strung, difficult to work with, and spooks easily. You can ride him, but he doesn't like it much. One of the problems is that the two were raised together and have never, as far as anyone knows, been apart. So when you sperate them to ride one of them the other one just whinnies the whole time making the whole experience miserable for rider and horse alike. We did change out bits, to help keep the attention of the one that is being ridden at the time. That seemed to help to a point. Roxanne and I have rode them both at the same time, they are so green that if you trotted one the other one would one-up to a canter. It was almost like the battle of the sexes. We may give them a treat once in awhile or even go into their pasture to visit with them, but ride them? I am not interested in training someone else's horses and Roxanne just doesn't have the time to train muchless ride.
Warrenly--he rides Moby--his motorcycle. :D

[RevDahlia]

I've known a few Arabians in my day, and they were all... how can I put this ... kinda ditzy. Like those really pretty girls in high school, the ones with great poise and great bone structure who spent an awful lot of time brushing their hair and text-messaging their boyfriends instead of listening to the teacher.

I used to ride a Polish Arabian named Roscoe, who looked like the horse in all those girl-with-horse books. He was big (being a Polish and not a regular Arab,) spirited and gorgeous, with this extremely competent and alert expression. He was also as dumb as paint. His whole affect, which communicated great readiness and nobility, was Roscoe-ese for "Duhhh... what?" He had no native intelligence and no pluck, and if he had hands he wouldn't have been able to find his ass with both of them. He was as sweet as pie, though, and he had the floatiest trot I've ever ridden... when I was able to convince him that he should trot, which happened rarely. Most of the time he was more interested in staring into the middle distance, very nobly and beautifully and vacantly. If he were human, I'd say he was a himbo.

My uncle has an Arabian/Tennessee Walker cross who is the best horse ever, though, so I'm reserving judgement on the breed. They sure are pretty.

[livius drusus]

Oh I don't know anything about the breed beyond what I've read in Black Stallion novels. It was the dressage training that reduced me to the dude from Flowers for Algernon pre-meds. I'm no skilled rider to begin with and she clearly knew a shitload more than I did.

[RevDahlia]

Oh I don't know anything about the breed beyond what I've read in Black Stallion novels. It was the dressage training that reduced me to the dude from Flowers for Algernon pre-meds. I'm no skilled rider to begin with and she clearly knew a shitload more than I did.
Boy, do I ever know how that goes -- Mirage the brilliant and beautiful does it to me all the time. I swear that when I'm putting a saddle on her she looks at me and sighs. "Oh no. You again. I have been brought up entirely too well to raise any active objection, but make it quick, would you?" It's totally my fault, too; I have a seat like a pallet full of cinderblocks.

There's nothing like a smart horse for making a human feel ignorant.

[inland wave]

They say that the horse is the teacher not the human.
I believe that in so many ways. As Moby is good therapy for Warrenly, the horses have been therapy for Roxanne and I.
With next year being her senior year in high school she was wanting to show at the Paint Worlds in Fort Worth, Texas. She is so busy with school and her band projects, I don't know when she would find time to tune up Howie for Worlds.
Not enough hours in a day around here.

[Dingfod]

Intelligence scale of domestic farm animals, in my opinion only, but I do have some experiential basis:
Dogs>Donkeys>Mules>Pigs>Cattle>Sheep>Chickens>Fish>Worms>Horses

Just kidding. Horses are smarter than worms.

Please note I didn't include Cats. I don't think cats are really domesticated.

[Petra]

Oh, man. I'm reading your posts, and I swear I can smell tack leather. I know where my fantasies will be tonight. Galloping freely o'er hill and dale, through streams and rivers, flying over gates and fences like Pegasus, and walking in the sand along the beach. No saddle, no riding helmet, a young Callan eager at the bit, and my feet bare. I'd die for it. :qsigh:


Humpf. Maybe I am romantic, after all. :giggle:


And I swear - I really can smell tack leather. :affection:

[Dingfod]

Oh, man. I'm reading your posts, and I swear I can smell tack leather. I know where my fantasies will be tonight. Galloping freely o'er hill and dale, through streams and rivers, flying over gates and fences like Pegasus, and walking in the sand along the beach. No saddle, no riding helmet, a young Callan eager at the bit, and my feet bare. I'd die for it. :qsigh:


Humpf. Maybe I am romantic, after all. :giggle:


And I swear - I really can smell tack leather. :affection:
No, it's just my English Leather cologne.

[Petra]

:chuckle:


silly billy.

[Dingfod]

If I don't wear English Leather, I don't wear anything at all.

[Petra]

:lmao:


very silly billy


I gotta crash. It's time to dream. :yawn: :wave:

[Dingfod]

G'night.

[Crumb]

Dogs>Donkeys>Mules>Pigs>Cattle>Sheep>Chickens>Fish>Worms>Horses

I think pigs go at the top...

When exactly were worms and fish domesticated?

[Dingfod]

Dogs>Donkeys>Mules>Pigs>Cattle>Sheep>Chickens>Fish>Worms>Horses

I think pigs go at the top...

When exactly were worms and fish domesticated?Well, there are fish farms and worm farms. I can't remember ever seeing a cat farm.

[Dragoon]

I'm jumping into this topic rather late I guess and besides it seems to have moved on, but here goes anyway.

From my moniker you might guess that I really like horses and riding. I've been doing my own shoeing (and a limited amount of emergency shoeing) for about 20 years and I've sure seen my share of abscesses. If I say so myself, I'm pretty good at treating them.

First, the reason they are so painful and why the horse goes so profoundly and suddenly lame is because the inflammation is confined to the hoof capsule which is highly enervated and therefore very sensitive. The hoof capsule is enclosed by the hard hoof wall, the coffin bone and the hard sole and there's no place for all that pressure to expand in to. BTW, if your horse goes profoundly lame overnight and there is no visible trauma to the legs or feet, there is a great probability that it has a foot abscess.

In my experience, abscesses can occur at any time no matter what you do, but they are greatly exacerbated by wet and especially by infected ground. Manure and areas where urine has accumulated is perfect for breeding the organisms that get into the foot (I don‘t know for a fact, but I suspect C. perfringens). Having shoes on the horse also tends to trap infectious material inside therefore, (unless the horse is not to be used over hard ground) it is usually best they not be shod.

I might add that after the ground starts to become dry and the horse’s feet start drying out, cracks open up and allow infection in too. In my experience, it’s just after the last rains in the spring that seem to be the worst time for abscesses.

Right now we are experiencing very wet weather here in California and the muck in my corrals give you a whole new meaning to the word "nasty." It is really miserable to have to go into them in the pelting rain and pick up every last piece of manure every day. Miserable yes, BUT this is the time horses need you the most and I'm out there so their ground doesn't turn into an infectious swamp. This is also the time when their feet need to be picked out every day too - whether you ride them or not. This is also the time when the horses need a dry place to stand out of the muck.

Here’s an example of what neglect will do:
A few years ago I was invited down to Southern California to try out a recently purchased horse my niece was afraid might be unmanageable. I took it on a community sponsored trail ride and came back thinking this was one of the best horses I have ever ridden. Its only problem was it was highly sensitive and required gentle handling - the yahoos who had been ignorantly pushing it around, had only made it seem unmanageable.

When I was shown the new horse’s corral I was appalled. Danny whined that it was just too rainy to be out there cleaning up and they “didn’t have enough money” to replace the filthy sand. I gave them dire warnings and lessons on proper hoof care and then went home. A couple of months later my sister called and told me that a terrible thing happened, the horse I thought so highly of, had to be destroyed. My niece and her idiot, know it all, listen to nobody (especially old geezer uncles), husband had not taken my advice and by the time they “could afford” to call a vet, the foot infections had caused osteomyelitis of the coffin bone. The vet was outraged and I guess the whole town heard him yelling at them. His outrage was seconded only by mine. I could only imagine how much pain the horse had been in and for how long. I think this incident factored greatly in the breakup of their marriage.

As mentioned earlier, the abscess causes painful swelling in the hoof capsule, but the horse can get almost immediate relief if the abscess can be drained. This requires finding just where the abscess is by first removing the shoe (if one is present) and then “pinching” the hoof at various places with a big pincer-like device called a hoof tester. Once the abscess is located - (and they are usually in the rear part of the foot or along the so-called white line between the sole and the hoof wall) - then a fine sharp knife is used to dig down into the sole. Usually a discolored area is encountered a few MM below the surface and by following the channel down, the black, highly fetid puss will usually start to drain. Sometimes there is little puss, but opening the channel still results in almost immediate relief. When opening an abscess, I try to remove as little of the surrounding sole (or corium) as possible.

BTW, don’t try this at home unless you really know what you are doing or are doing it under expert supervision. As it is, I will not dream of doing this to anybody else’s horse nor will I show anybody how unless we are out in the middle of nowhere and it’s an emergency. What I suggest is to follow the usual method, prepare a hyper saturated solution of Epsom Salts and soak the horse’s foot in that for as long as possible. In a few cases, simple soaking will cure the condition. If the condition persists, repeat treatments as often as practical until a good shoe-er or a vet can see the horse. Yes, a good shoe-er is (IMO) better than a vet and a lot cheaper. Remember that this isn’t a vital emergency, but it is an extremely painful condition and the animal should be treated as soon as possible out of simple humanity.

After the abscess is drained, I usually pack the hole with iodine soaked cotton and (knock on wood) I’ve never had the area re-infect. I replace the shoe and think nothing of riding the horse the next day as I feel that the extra circulation helps to dispel the last of the inflammation. The only problem with riding the horse right away is that sometimes there’s a big cone shaped hole in the foot that extends all the way down to the “sensitive corium” or the living part of the foot, but generally the foot is pretty well protected by the shoe. The horse may be a little more “ouchey” than usual when walking over stones with part of his sole gone, but it is usually not a problem and I believe it stimulates the foot to grow. Anyway, this approach has worked well for me for years.

[Ensign Steve]

Excellent information, Dragoon! Thanks!

(How can a city girl like me tell that you're into horses by your handle?)

:horse:

[Dragoon]

Thanks for the kind word Ensign Steve.

The Dragoons were "heavy horse cavalry" as opposed to Hussars which were "light horse cavalry."

**Warning: The following is extremely nerdy stuff!**

I used to do mounted Union C.W. reenactment with an excellent group up in Northern California. In addition to my soldierly duties, I was the "company farrier" and during the C.W. that would have meant much more pay and a protected place in the ranks during battles. FYI and to bore you to tears, the cavalry organized by the US army at that time were technically heavily armed, mounted infantry and therefore, dragoons.

To really bore you, I might add that the word dragoon comes from weapon the heavily armed horsemen carried. In the real early days, heavily armed horsemen carried a short version of a very primitive firearm called a dragon. This is probably where our modern word gun comes from. In other words, a shortened form of a dragon is a gon = gun.

Now, aren't you sorry you asked? :yup:

[Dragoon]

Earlier I wanted to add that hoofs are marvelous structures and they have an amazing power to heal themselves and re-grow. Sometimes chronic conditions will develop, but usually even severe abscesses and mechanical damage to the hoof wall will grow out with time. Even horses with really severe laminitis (if they don’t have to be destroyed in the acute stage) can recover and have useful lives.

While good shoeing is important, a bad shoeing job is not the end of the world and sometimes the shoe-er doesn't have much choice but to violate some "rule of thumb." Like a haircut, the difference between a good shoeing and a bad one is usually a few weeks. However, if you get two or more bad shoeings in a row, it’s probably time to look for a new shoe-er.

Like in so many things, Nature cures and the doctor takes the credit.

[livius drusus]

Bored? No. Not even close. Not even remotely. Thank you, Dragoon, for your oustanding and enlightening posts. I found them absolutely riveting. :bow:

I was shocked to read your cautionary tale. I don't understand how anyone could afford to buy a horse and not afford veterinary care or even worse, clean sand, for Chrissakes. Nor do I understand how they could bitch about the work involved in what seems to be basic upkeep just because it's freaking raining outside. What a horrible and appallingly cruel waste. :(

On a more upbeat note, welcome to FF, Dragoon. :welcome2:

[Dragoon]

Thank you very much. I look forward to hanging out here if I may.

Yes, I'm still mad about what happened. As I mentioned, it was a really nice animal. I'm no "horse whisperer" (god knows), but almost immediately after getting on it I knew it was very eager to please. All you had to do was make your wishes known and it would gladly do it. Silly as it sounds, in the short time I spent with it, I developed an affection for it because it was so willing and it didn't have a mean bone in its body. It had been an ex-race horse and was very sensitive, but not as high strung as many of them and in good hands it would and could do anything. Man what a great jumper or hunt horse it would have made. Those kind of horses can not be knocked around like a cow-horse, but you will never convince most red-necked yahoos of that.

[livius drusus]

Thank you very much. I look forward to hanging out here if I may.

Yes, yes you may. You may also turn your first post into an article once we get the new software up. Oh, and you may post so assiduously my own post count will begin to look less disturbingly oversized. The only thing you may not do is mess around at Tetris. I have more than enough interlopers to deal with as it is. ;)

It had been an ex-race horse and was very sensitive, but not as high strung as many of them and in good hands it would and could do anything. Man what a great jumper or hunt horse it would have made. Those kind of horses can not be knocked around like a cow-horse, but you will never convince most red-necked yahoos of that.

What did your niece et al intend to do with him? Did they expect a former race horse to make a good cow-horse? Actually, now that I think of it, I'm not really sure what a cow-horse is. Pardon my ignorance, but do you mean a horse used to drive cattle?

Also, why in the world did they ask you to check the horse out if they weren't going to listen to your advice? The more I think about this the more it makes me mad.

[Dragoon]

... ... ...
What did your niece et al intend to do with him? Did they expect a former race horse to make a good cow-horse? Actually, now that I think of it, I'm not really sure what a cow-horse is. Pardon my ignorance, but do you mean a horse used to drive cattle?

Also, why in the world did they ask you to check the horse out if they weren't going to listen to your advice? The more I think about this the more it makes me mad.

Thank you again.

My niece and her X bought the horse "real cheap" because the former yahoos (who knew just enough to be dangerous) couldn't make a roper out of it and they couldn't get it to behave on trail rides. My niece is a good and very kind hearted person who loves animals, but as dumb as a stick when it comes to managing them. Since she had everything from a pet rat to a pet pig, she wanted to make the zoo complete by having a horse too.

Actually, she and Danny wanted to "train" the horse and then perhaps sell it for a profit, but they were really worried because none of their yahoo friends could do anything with it. In desperation they invited "Uncle John" down to evaluate it. I guess they were going to sell it to the people who buy horses for slaughter if I agreed that the horse was a killer. They really were desperate by this time. BTW there is sooooo much horse BS out there and so many self appointed “trainers” spreading the worst kind of illogical, idiotic misinformation about --- well, that’s another topic.

As soon as I got to Norco Danny showed me the horse, I got the sense that he'd be just fine so we saddled it up, Danny got on a good old push button horse belonging to a neighbor and we left for a community trail ride. If I say so myself, the horse turned out to be the best behaved animal on the ride.

Let me give you an example:
The "Trail Boss" couldn't get his horse to go into the flooded Santa Clara River and when he finally did, the horse dumped him. Oh god it was funny because all we could see of the poor fellow was his cowboy hat floating down the river. He quickly bobbed back up and strictly forbad anybody else entering the river. In full view of everybody I gently but firmly urged my horse to a section of the stream I felt was much safer and that "unmanageable" horse and I crossed easily. The trail boss got back on soaking wet and freezing to death and followed us over to the other bank and the ride resumed.

I might mention that getting horses over streams is somewhat a matter of pride for me.

Danny was astounded and very pleased, telling me that nobody else could do anything with the horse (which sure fed my ego). By the time we got back I was bubbling with enthusiasm for the horse and then I had Danny show me its corral. Well, you know the rest.

I think the reason they didn't take my advice was because they were just too ignorant and too poor. I'm sure they thought my suggestions were too demanding on them and they thought I was overstating the gravity of the situation. I'm a little embarrassed to mention this and I can't explain it, but for all my life, I've never been the kind of person people take very seriously and I always had to have working prototypes of designs before anybody would believe me that my circuits would work.

With regard to my use of the term; cow-horse:
Yes, horse sports are extremely diverse. There's everything from dressage to Chorro Rodeo, from fox hunting to team penning, from Grand Prix jumping to roping, from trail riding to gathering cattle. There are even a few very odd types that do cavalry re-enacting, go on fox (actually coyote) hunts and appear as extras in movies.

For most of the activities that are most popular in California and the west, it is sports involving cattle - team penning and especially calf roping that are the most popular. Gathering and branding cattle is still a hugely popular social activity (mostly) done on horseback. These activities are best performed on quarter horses. Quarter horses are wonderful animals that were and are bred especially to be cow-horses (most anyway). It is possible to train other breeds to be outstanding cow-horses, but few have the inborn talent quarter horses have for it. BTW, quarter horses make excellent trail horses too.

Most quarter horses are not all that high strung or nervous and to get them to perform (and behave themselves) sometimes you have to get physical (bordering on brutal). Many of them are pretty smart (for horses) and when they understand what they are being punished for, they learn to cut it out or do it right without getting all upset about being spanked - hard. One of my horses (I bought for cavalry uses) is a quarter. He's a great horse that can jump and keep up with the best, but when I first got him he had such a high threshold of pain, I really had to knock him around until he finally learned who the boss is (mostly). A well behaved cow-horse is what the vast majority of people SHOULD own.

My other horse is an ex race horse and a thoroughbred. He's my favorite and I use him for (dare I say it?) fox hunting. He's not so high strung that you can never punish him, but he gets fired up and upset and it takes him a long time to get over it. Like most all his breed, he has a very low threshold of pain and you have to be real careful how far you push him. As the cavalry found out during the C.W. "Blood horses (meaning thoroughbreds) are unsuitable for cavalry mounts." That had to be the understatement of the 19th century. However they are fast, energetic, will run themselves to death for you without asking and can be quite lovable. They can be a dangerous handful though, especially if you don't know what you are doing.

Now having said all that, there are many (maybe most) horse people who will disagree with nearly every opinion I have just expressed. :doh:

Gee, I just realized that I’ve been “beating a dead horse:” here, but I’m going to send it anyway. :wink:

[pescifish]

Well, I'm enjoying the read, for what that's worth.

...there are many (maybe most) horse people who will disagree with nearly every opinion I have just expressed. Though I shared a happy 6 years with a horse, I was never a "horse people" so your information is all good to me. The only bit I'm confused on is that I didn't know there was a Santa Clara river in the Norco area. The one I know of starts farther north and heads out to the ocean at Ventura. But, I'm happy to learn this bit, too!

I have to second the attitude that the price for horse shoeing is very reasonable. I was astounded that a highly skilled person would drive to my house, wait for me to fetch my horse, spend 30-60 minutes bending over, lifting long heavy legs and staying out of the way of a possible deadly kick all for the bargain price of $25! It's a dangerous job, hard work and I was grateful for the expert skill and strong gentle touch of my farrier.

[livius drusus]

It's a dangerous job, hard work and I was grateful for the expert skill and strong gentle touch of my farrier.

Plus, farrier is just a really cool word. :yup:

[Dingfod]

Now having said all that, there are many (maybe most) horse people who will disagree with nearly every opinion I have just expressed.Not at all, Dragoon. I'm no expert either, but I've been around horses full-time for about six years now and dealt with them off an on for most of my life, mostly off; but I've read just about everything I can get my hands on about them. I think you are right on the money, a lot of horses need a firm hand, someone that they know is in charge. I've ridden horses that just plain ignored someone else but did exactly what I wanted them to do. They just know when you aren't going to take any of their guff.

I do like joking about how dumb they are, but actually, I find horses and horse behavior fascinating, even if I don't like riding them. My wife thinks I should get that Tucker Mountie trail saddle that I've admired for better than five years. She thinks I might like riding on a saddle that fits me and is comfortable for me and the horse. She's probably right. Perhaps that is all it would take.

My place should be ideal for a couple of horses. We've got a little over two acres of grass, normally sufficient to feed them from late March through early October. We feed prairie grass hay through the winter. For the past year we've had three horses instead and it has been considerably wetter than normal for the whole year. About a half acre in front of the barn is just muck. Our soils contain a lot of clay and take forever to dry out. There are two dry places the horses can stand, in their stalls in the new barn and inside the old barn, which is half limestone screenings and half concrete, but is dry.

We are treating the old quarterhorse gelding for rainrot, basically mildew on his feet. The mare has a little on her haunches, but has responded well to the drier weather. The paint, who had rainrot bad when we bought him, doesn't have it at all right now. Damn wet weather. It's bad for horses and bad for motorcycling, but good for grass growth, a mixed blessing I guess.

Dragoon, as a dragoon, do you have a Colt Dragoon? If not, you should, for those reinactments. For those that don't know it is a huge percussion cap revolver, weighing four pounds two ounces and dwarfs the more common Ruger Old Army or Colt 1860 Army and is more powerful than either with a 50 grain blackpowder charge. For those that don't know the difference, think of the huge revolver that Kim Darby carried in a bag in the John Wayne movie, True Grit. That's a Colt Dragoon. I've often entertained the thought of getting into the Civil War reinactments, just never the cavalry.

[Dragoon]

... The only bit I'm confused on is that I didn't know there was a Santa Clara river in the Norco area. The one I know of starts farther north and heads out to the ocean at Ventura. But, I'm happy to learn this bit, too!

:doh: How stupid of me, of course you are right. I had confused the names. I should have said the Santa Ana River, not the Santa Clara.

I have to second the attitude that the price for horse shoeing is very reasonable. I was astounded that a highly skilled person would drive to my house, wait for me to fetch my horse, spend 30-60 minutes bending over, lifting long heavy legs and staying out of the way of a possible deadly kick all for the bargain price of $25! It's a dangerous job, hard work and I was grateful for the expert skill and strong gentle touch of my farrier.

Wow!! What part of California do you live in? Things are real cheap around here horse-wise, but you can't get a trimming for under $50 bucks. Do you mean $25 per foot? A standard shoeing is around $75, but that includes all four feet.

You are absolutely right about it being a very dangerous job. Even if (like me) you only do your own, you can never trust them to not shift their weight on you wrenching your back and perhaps slipping and falling on you. If they decide to kick, they have all kinds of ways of nailing you too. Matter of fact, every time I pick up a strange horse's foot, I turn my face away as much as I can. I also take a minute or two to let the horse smell and recognize my touch and I never make any sudden moves while I'm getting ready to start.

Another hazard is the sharp knives and protruding nails. Some times I'll cut myself pretty deeply with a hoof knife. One time, right after I had driven a nail through the hoof wall and was about to twist it off, the damn horse pulled the foot away. The nail went deep into my palm and boy did it ache - and bleed. I couldn't stop in the middle of a job so all my tools and the horses legs ended up bloody. Yet for all these incidents of deep cuts and puncture wounds, in this ultra septic environment, I have never had a cut fester nor do I know anybody else who has developed an infection. Then there's the smashed finger when your shoeing hammer hits the left index instead of the damned nail. It really hurts!!

One of the worst hazards is the human customers. You can't believe how goofy some people are. How they want perfection and the impossible - for nothing. I once knew a gal (an ex LV showgirl no less) that had a quarter horse which had very thin "shelly" hoofwalls (quarter's are notorious for that). Nobody would shoe for her because the walls were so thin. Finally she talked a guy into it, he put on a set of shoes and the next day the horse was lame because a nail had "quicked" it. Long story short, she sued the poor guy and to stay out of court, he paid her some thousands of dollars he couldn't afford. Nothing I could say to her would disabuse her of her notion that the horse would be crippled for life. There's not a shoe-er alive that hasn't quicked a horse and it is rare indeed that the wound leads to anything serious.

Another problem is the unexpected automatic reactions you have when a horse trys to injure you. We have all come unglued at times when a horse does us something especially painful. Our first reaction is to teach it not to do it again and in our - let me say - altered - state of mind (AKA rage), we might use maybe a little too much thoughtless violence on it. I have actually broken expensive tools including a brand new rasp (shattered like glass) over the butt of my quarter horse (not that he seemed to care much). One shoe-er I used to know was a very decent sort of guy. He had to leave the area because when a horse twisted his back, he turned around with the rasp in his hand and without thinking whacked it on the face and put out its eye. If it could happen to Joe, it can happen to anybody IMO.

Speaking of backs, every second you are under a horse your precious, never to be replaced back bones are at peril. All those guys are in business for themselves and if they get hurt, they don't eat. If they get mamed for life, their livelyhood is finished and they are screwed.

For all that, working with horses is fun and it gives me a joy that no desk job ever did. People ask me why I do it when I can afford to have it done and I answer that it gives me a sense of accomplishment And it saves me money and besides, I am able to more closely monitor my horses' foot health. Another thing, over the years I have developed theories on how shoes stay on and how they are lost and I am able to custom shoe my guys. Finally it is a great source of satisfaction to know that if my friends and I are out in the middle of nowhere or if a meet is about to start, I can do an emergency repair and "save the day" - nobody has to go home disappointed because of a lost, bent or loose shoe.

[Dragoon]

... I've ridden horses that just plain ignored someone else but did exactly what I wanted them to do. They just know when you aren't going to take any of their guff.

So very true. The meanest horse in the herd is the leader and they respond instinctively to whoever's in charge and acts like it. On the other hand, they also must know that you will never hurt them for no reason and I really do believe that it helps if you show them affection after a necessary punishment.

... My wife thinks I should get that Tucker Mountie trail saddle that I've admired for better than five years. She thinks I might like riding on a saddle that fits me and is comfortable for me and the horse. She's probably right. Perhaps that is all it would take.[QUOTE]

You really should at least try it. How much would you be out? If it didn't work out, you could still sell it. Let me tell you, around here we have the San Rafael and Santa Ynez mountains and I ride them every week (when it's not raining like yesterday) and they are beautiful. As beautiful as the Natural World is, the absolutely best seat in the house is on horseback. They do all the hard work of taking you there so you are refreshed when you get to the top and they are above the brush and rocks so that you can see everything in all its glory. Perhaps a low flying plane is better, but you can not linger to enjoy beautiful nature like you can on horseback.

I'd like to comment on your other things too, but I'm late for the stables. Got to go. However I did want to comment on one item.

[QUOTE=warrenly]...
Dragoon, as a dragoon, do you have a Colt Dragoon? If not, you should, for those reinactments. For those that don't know it is a huge percussion cap revolver, weighing four pounds two ounces and dwarfs the more common Ruger Old Army or Colt 1860 Army and is more powerful than either with a 50 grain blackpowder charge. For those that don't know the difference, think of the huge revolver that Kim Darby carried in a bag in the John Wayne movie, True Grit. That's a Colt Dragoon. I've often entertained the thought of getting into the Civil War reinactments, just never the cavalry.

By the time of the Civil War (1861) all the dragoon models were pretty much obsolete. They never made that many of them anyway. They had been replaced by the Colt Army which was much lighter and easier to use. A little later in the war the really superb Remington New Model Army revolver became very popular. I have owned repros of both the Colt (I hate its old fashioned loose as a goose design and tendency to jam) but I love shooting the Remington. The Remington incorporates so many design improvements that there is just no question which was the best. Besides, with proper loading techniques, I can hit a metal bear-sized target at 100 yards 5/6 times (using a bench rest of course). It is easily as accurate as any modern firearm. I could go on and on about the Remington.

True, the dragoons were huge and powerful, but so heavy that they were kept in saddle holsters and rarely on the person of the trooper. This could be a real disadvantage if the trooper lost his horse. Besides that, it was so much easier whipping out and pointing the lighter .44's Colts and Remingtons.

BTW, the "smaller" Colts and Remingtons blasted out a mean and deadly .44 ball or conical at velocities that would knock a guy on his ass never to rise again. With 35 grains of BP, the blast is impressive.

My reenacting group was a real stickler for authentic arms, saddles, uniforms and equipment. A dragoon model would have been considered as a "farb" piece and we would have been asked to leave it at home because nobody in the actual C.W. unit was known to posess one. See, we were U.S. Army and had to adhere to all the chickenshit regulations.

Sorry, but have to go. The rain soaked, sloppy corrals await.

[Dingfod]

So very true. The meanest horse in the herd is the leader and they respond instinctively to whoever's in charge and acts like it. On the other hand, they also must know that you will never hurt them for no reason and I really do believe that it helps if you show them affection after a necessary punishment.In our herd of three, Ace, the leader is the most affable and well-mannered of horses and does just what you tell him, every time. The only thing I've ever seen him do to the other horses is pin his ears back and maybe stomp the ground, that usually does the trick. He got his bluff in on the paint gelding, Howie, the second in command, who is mean as hell to the little mare, Angel. Five years ago we bought a virtually unmanageable mare who kicked the shit out of Ace within the first minute of their acquaintance and bossed him around the whole time we had her, routinely kicking and biting if he came too close.

We ended up getting rid of Penny, that mean mare, because, even after three months at the trainer, none of us except the trainer could get her to take a bit. Without a bit, using a hackamore or bosal, or even just a rope tied to each side of her halter, she was great to ride. Unfortunately, western pleasure and english riding horse show rules around here require them to have a bit in their mouth. She was so bad about it the rodeo cowboy that bought her tied her lead rope up tight to our steel pipe fence and forced her to take the bit. He couldn't get her to take it any other way, she had already lifted him clear off the ground several times when he tried to force her head down to take the bit. He got the bit in her mouth, rode her for about a minute, then bought her without hesitation because once you had the bit and bridle on her, she was great, had great power and was easy to control. I kind of wish we had kept her for me to ride, even if I had to use a bitless bridle. I'm not going to enter any competitive horse events that require a bit anyway.

[Shaguar]

Dragoon, yes you do dare say it FOX HUNTING, at least you are carrying on the tradition we have now lost.

[Dragoon]

Dragoon, yes you do dare say it FOX HUNTING, at least you are carrying on the tradition we have now lost.

Please don't give up the fight.

I think this PETA style foolishness will run its course and the basic instincts, handed down from our A. africanus ancestors and incorporated into our very brains, will assert themselves.

Perhaps this isn't the time or place to go into it, but the vast good that hunting results in can not be compared to the evil that some people see in it. Last night Martyn B., our English Huntsman E-mailed us his opinion and I'd like to quote from it.

"The likes of Capt Wallace always tried to keep a low profile and be as secretive as possible. Never causing controversy running away from the press without comment. If ever there was a promotional article on the TV it was always an upper class buffoon with the silver spoon talking down to the masses. The reason I tell you all to be open and honest about what you do and why you do it. Everyone has a different reason, from the hound work to being able to ride in remote places with a bunch of like minded people."

Martyn is afraid that we in America are going down the same "politically correct" path as his comrades have in England. He wants us to correct the misconceptions people have before it's too late here too and I agree.

I shouldn't go on like this, but I just want to say one more thing. We also hunt wild boar out here and I have shot and eaten my share. More than most in society we see the whole of what it means to be a meat eater and some of it is not pleasant. Still, the wonderfully natural and free life the animals live - and in a beautifully preserved - thanks to us - countryside, is worth the lives of the few that we actually harvest. If only PETA and their like would concentrate on eliminating the truly horrible "factory farms" and give us the praise we deserve for assuring that wild animals have a good, clean life and (at our hands anyway) a swift death, what a better world this would be.

[Dragoon]

In our herd of three, Ace, the leader is the most affable and well-mannered of horses and does just what you tell him, every time. The only thing I've ever seen him do to the other horses is pin his ears back and maybe stomp the ground, that usually does the trick. He got his bluff in on the paint gelding, Howie, the second in command, who is mean as hell to the little mare, Angel. Five years ago we bought a virtually unmanageable mare who kicked the shit out of Ace within the first minute of their acquaintance and bossed him around the whole time we had her, routinely kicking and biting if he came too close.

That's what's so great about horses and allows them to be so useful. As big and strong and dangerous as they can be, intelligent bluff, reinforced by a kick or swat or making them run around and around in a round pen, in the beginning, is all it takes to make a them highly useful and helpful servant. Even weak little humans like us can get away with it.

I guess I should have said "meanest appearing" or "meanest seeming" animal, because they do not have to be the "meanest acting" animal by any means. Same thing with their human masters. Being mean to them for no reason can make them completely unmanageable and even deadly dangerous or turn them into a pitiful, spiritless "dummy" that may or may not explode some day. If they have experienced the fact that you are not capricious (mean acting), but you are ready to back up your cues (mean seeming), they rarely argue and they are so much more fun.


We ended up getting rid of Penny, that mean mare, ...
... ...
Unfortunately, western pleasure and english riding horse show rules around here require them to have a bit in their mouth. ...
... ...
tied her lead rope up tight to our steel pipe fence and forced her to take the bit.
... ...
I'm not going to enter any competitive horse events that require a bit anyway.

I hate to appear - shall we say - asexist, but I have always owned geldings. On two occasions I nearly bought polo trained mares because I was into Polocrosse and mares are the best. The deals fell through when I tried to bargain (got real offended and didn't want to deal with me) and when I "went too fast" on the other one. Turned out the both broke down as soon as the new owners (not me) played them. Mares are wonderful, but that PMS really hits them and they can be real kickers.

You know, I'll bet today that cowboy you mentioned (and most of the really, really useful things I know were taught to me by old time cowboys) has no trouble putting the bit into Penny's mouth. He found and used a technique that worked and that is the secret, start with the most gentle method and work up until you find a technique that works. Stop if something is definitely not working or making it worse and then try something else. There are always dozens of "something elses." You know that only the most nutty horses will not eventually learn that they have to do something and by repeated exposure, they will do it without question.

I guess my point is, perhaps you shouldn't have given up on Penny if she was otherwise a good horse.

I'm really not into la-de-da showing and events where you have to look good for the judges for no practical reason. I guess that's why I've loved hunting all these years and avoided showing. I mean, you should learn and practice good riding technique, but just looking good for its own sake is beyond me. Also there's this: Long and hard, I EARNED my coat and colors and for them to say I have to wear some fake hunt attire, but not my own real attire, well screw them. :glare:

[The Lone Ranger]

Hopefully this isn't too much of a derail, but I have to ask: why fox hunting?

Don't get me wrong, I've lived all my life in farming/hunting/fishing country. I've hunted, I've fished, and I've slaughtered farm animals, so I feel I can eat meat with a clear conscious (and I do).

I have zero problem with hunters who eat what they kill. The best thing we could do for our over-dense deer populations is encourage more hunting (that is, with the exception of introducing more of their "natural" predators back into these habitats -- but people have a strange aversion to seeing wolves, cougars and bears in their back yards, alas).

In my opinion though, it's barbaric to kill for no other reason than that one enjoys killing. So, I hope that these are non-lethal fox hunts. It's not like the fox populations are in desperate need of culling, after all.


Cheers,

Michael



(P.S.: Boars are not native to North America, and do tremendous ecological damage in places like the Great Smoky Mountains. By all means, shoot as many of them as possible!)

[Shaguar]

I will have a stab at the why foxhunting question.
Basically it is pest control, foxes now have no natural predators in the UK and therefore there a few natural controls on the population. Sheep and chicken farmers both suffer large losses due to fax predation. It must be said however that as a means of pest control it is pretty inefficient.

[Dingfod]

It must be said however that as a means of pest control [fox hunting] it is pretty inefficient.Yes, but it does keep them wary of humans. If they're chased enough, seeing or smelling a human comes to mean run and hide. As predators they can become a real problem when they lose the fear of humans, they start hunting household pets. I'll stop there lest someone accuse me of using a slippery slope argument.

On another note, I saw a red fox last night, crossing the road in front of me just a half mile from my house. The red fox is not native to Oklahoma, or even America, I don't think. We do have grey foxes. I'd rather have red foxes than skunks. Damn skunks.

[Dragoon]

Hopefully this isn't too much of a derail, but I have to ask: why fox hunting?

... ... ...

In my opinion though, it's barbaric to kill for no other reason than that one enjoys killing. So, I hope that these are non-lethal fox hunts. It's not like the fox populations are in desperate need of culling, after all.


Cheers,

Michael



(P.S.: Boars are not native to North America, and do tremendous ecological damage in places like the Great Smoky Mountains. By all means, shoot as many of them as possible!)

You are right about the derail, but the question of foot abscesses seems to be talked out. I am very new on this forum so I am not clear on how much deviation is allowed after the original thread is played out. In addition, we are probably deviating from a discussion of a strictly scientific issue too and perhaps questions of fox hunting should be in another section.

Having said that, I'm going to say something anyway. :wink:

My club is a fox hunting club in name only because foxes here are not vermin and have been pretty much all killed off by their larger cousins, the coyotes. Rather than foxes, we pretty much hunt only coyotes which are big pests. Please don't tell the ranchers that invite us on their property to get rid of the coyotes, but we kill a coyote about once every five years on average, the rest easily get away. Same thing with the wild boar, except we let them get away except when we need more of the best tasting sausage in the world.

That brings up the moral issue you touched on. Believe me, there is not a single person in our hunt that enjoys or even feels neutral about the killing aspect of it. The thrill is in the chase and I can't possibly describe it to you. Once on a scent you find yourself riding like a madman trying to control a horse that is all excited to be running full out with its own kind - it's hard to tell who's having more fun, you or your horse. If you should bring the quarry to ground, the fun is pretty much over and a grim decision must be made. If the animal needs to be culled, then so be it - such are the stern facts of life, but if it can be released unharmed, we are all glad.

In addition while watching the magnificent spectacle of trained hounds working, you are afforded the opportunity to view a side of the land and the mountains that is more wild and beautiful than anywhere you would normally be allowed to go - and you are seeing from the best seat in the house, the horse's back.

In addition to that, you are in the company of the finest people you have ever met, talking about things we all enjoy and sharing a little nip of something while taking pleasure at pointing out to each other the beauty of our surroundings. You know, I worked with the same people for over 20 years and when I left or when somebody would die suddenly (and a few did), most just didn't give a damn. When you are riding in a hunt, you are in a tribe and those are real people.

After each hunt and after we have seen to our horses, we spread out a big lunch we call a "breakfast" (because we are breaking our fast after a long morning of hunting). I can't tell you how pleasant it is to have a picnic surrounded by good friends and good conversation. Since we are in prime wine growing country (see the movie Sideways), we also have some great local stuff somebody has brought for us to try.

At the risk of being annoyingly redundant, let me state once again that our interests are not, by any means, in the killing aspects of our sport. That is just a natural and unavoidable aspect that sometimes occurs. Our interests are the excitement of the moment of course, but in a much larger sense, our interests are in keeping the countryside as natural and as fit for the survival of our prey species as possible.

True, our goal is not to kill anything and certainly not foxes, but where species are pests (like in England), we are the only thing that stands between them and extinction. A bold statement perhaps? Consider that pests are poisoned and shot without mercy by farmers and others who have a vital economic interest in eliminating the species. Consider that habitat like hedgerows and cover are laborious and expensive to maintain and would all disappear if farmers and nobody else had an interest in maintaining them. Eliminate the fox hunters and the foxes will loose their habitat and will be hunted to extinction for economic reasons.

An example of this is the cougars of this area. Finally after decades and decades, the ranchers are letting them back in. We have spotted them in our hunt country. I have pictures I have taken (always take my digitial camera with me) and believe me, we hunters are absolutely delighted and thrilled to see them coming back.

Perhaps as problematic is the question of whether it is right that we "frighten" animals by chasing them. I know we hunters are sometimes scared witless when our horses are carrying us along at full tilt. After a dangerous gallop, we all feel the greatest sense of elation at having survived another chase - talk about living life to its top. I believe all mammals share basic brain stem functions so I think it is reasonable to assume the prey feels the same elation at getting away and when they don't, they are dispatched without the humiliation and suffering that factory farm animals have to suffer all their poor, miserable lives.

As I mentioned before, I have shot (and "gutted") my share of wild pigs, but I can not say that it was anything but unpleasant - unpleasant, but something of a duty that connects me to the grim business that must go on in nature and our own human existence too. No, even for the wild pigs, that cause so much habitat destruction here too, I do not feel elated or even neutral about pulling the trigger and there is nobody in our hunt that feels otherwise.

Wow, I guess I got a little carried away. Sorry for the length, but I’m going to post this anyway because I really feel strongly about this issue even if perhaps this isn’t the place to discuss it.

Talk about a derailment. This isn't so much a derailment as a huge trainwreck.

[The Lone Ranger]

On another note, I saw a red fox last night, crossing the road in front of me just a half mile from my house. The red fox is not native to Oklahoma, or even America, I don't think.

Actually, red foxes (Vulpes vulpes) are native to most of North America and almost all of Eurasia. Here's a range map: http://www.lioncrusher.com/images/range_maps/redfox_range.gif

They are not native to Australia. They were introduced there, and as is so often the case when species are deliberately introduced into new environments, they have had an extremely destructive effect upon the native wildlife.



Dragoon:
I figured your response would be pretty-much as it was; I was mostly concerned with clarifying the issue, since a lot of Americans would automatically assume that any form of hunting would necessarily involve killing the huntee.

Thanks for clearing that up!


As I mentioned before, I have shot (and "gutted") my share of wild pigs, but I can not say that it was anything but unpleasant - unpleasant, but something of a duty that connects me to the grim business that must go on in nature and our own human existence too. No, even for the wild pigs, that cause so much habitat destruction here too, I do not feel elated or even neutral about pulling the trigger and there is nobody in our hunt that feels otherwise.
I've killed and butchered animals, and while you do become somewhat inured to it after awhile (I know people who will wring a chicken's neck while having a conversation with you), I'd be quite worried about anyone who enjoyed such a thing. I think we owe a certain degree of respect to the animals that die to provide our meals, after all.


Perhaps as problematic is the question of whether it is right that we "frighten" animals by chasing them. I know we hunters are sometimes scared witless when our horses are carrying us along at full tilt. After a dangerous gallop, we all feel the greatest sense of elation at having survived another chase - talk about living life to its top. I believe all mammals share basic brain stem functions so I think it is reasonable to assume the prey feels the same elation at getting away and when they don't, they are dispatched without the humiliation and suffering that factory farm animals have to suffer all their poor, miserable lives.
It would depend on the circumstances, I should think. As it happens, my doctoral research involves the stress experienced by wild animals (specifically snowshoe hares) from human activities. Occasional chases don't seem to cause any long-term harm, and some people (e.g. Robert Sapolsky) actually argue that an occasional shot of adrenaline is good for you, and explains why so many people crave "dangerous" activities like skydiving, riding roller-coasters, etc. On the other hand, what I've been finding is that animals that are frequently disturbed develop chronically elevated "stress hormone" levels, and this leads to all sorts of problems -- decreased immune function (leading to higher rates of illness and parasitism), decreased reproductive rates, etc.


Wow, I guess I got a little carried away. Sorry for the length, but I’m going to post this anyway because I really feel strongly about this issue even if perhaps this isn’t the place to discuss it.

Talk about a derailment. This isn't so much a derailment as a huge trainwreck.

Not at all. As you pointed out, the original discussion seems to have pretty-much run its course anyway. Threads tend to wander over time.


Cheers,

Michael

[Dragoon]

...
I think we owe a certain degree of respect to the animals that die to provide our meals, after all.


Well said. I wish I would have thought to put it that way. Even the pest species are beautiful works of nature and deserve our respect and the protection of their habitat.

...
... As it happens, my doctoral research involves the stress experienced by wild animals (specifically snowshoe hares) from human activities.
...
On the other hand, what I've been finding is that animals that are frequently disturbed develop chronically elevated "stress hormone" levels, and this leads to all sorts of problems -- decreased immune function (leading to higher rates of illness and parasitism), decreased reproductive rates, etc.
...

Cool. Apparently your major is wildlife biology or wildlife management. :cool: My B.S. was in Geology. Those kinds of studies sure help you understand and appreciate the Natural World IMO.

Regarding physiological stress:
Believe me, foxes, coyotes and wild pigs are well adapted to life among humans. I'm sure they feel stress indeed when the hounds are in full cry after them, but it doesn't last all that long before they either get away (as do most of the coyotes) or we whip the hounds off them or we (rarely) shoot them. I really doubt that any individual gets chased much more than once in its lifetime. I mean, I doubt if we ever see the same pig or coyote twice.

When we do harvest a wild pig, it is usually my duty to prepare it out in the field by eviscerating and bleeding it and putting it in the shade until somebody can come by and load it in the back of a pick-up for professional butchering. Hathor knows I'm no pathologist, but out of curiosity I open the stomach to see what it had been eating (stomachs are always full) and examine the liver, spleen, intestines and lungs. Judging from their size, firmness, and uniform color, the organs always look perfectly healthy to me with no signs of parasitism I can detect. There is always a layer of fat covering the abdominal muscles, but otherwise the animals are quite lean and muscular. Being pigs and needing to wallow, they are sometimes dirty, but it is clean sandy loam with no smell.

With regard to our activities affecting their reproduction, many of the ranches around here are alive with wild pigs of all ages. No, when it comes to sex, they act just like a bunch of ANIMALS, I mean, what a bunch of pigs - eating and sex, you’d think they had nothing better to do with their lives! :D

[Crumb]

Even the pest species are beautiful works of nature and deserve our respect and the protection of their habitat.

Unless their habitat is in my bed! :madrant:

[The Lone Ranger]

Cool. Apparently your major is wildlife biology or wildlife management. :cool: My B.S. was in Geology. Those kinds of studies sure help you understand and appreciate the Natural World IMO.
I'm an ecologist, basically, though I've certainly done a lot of work in wildlife biology. (Sadly, in my experience, the primary interest in Wildlife "Management" is how to maximize the numbers of game animals, regardless of what this might mean to the rest of the ecosystem in question.)

I wouldn't trade a day of wandering through the woods looking for neat critters for any desk job in the world!


Believe me, foxes, coyotes and wild pigs are well adapted to life among humans. I'm sure they feel stress indeed when the hounds are in full cry after them, but it doesn't last all that long before they either get away (as do most of the coyotes) or we whip the hounds off them or we (rarely) shoot them. I really doubt that any individual gets chased much more than once in its lifetime. I mean, I doubt if we ever see the same pig or coyote twice.
While it certainly doesn't apply to all animal populations that are being actively hunted, as far as the foxes, coyotes and pigs that you guys deal with are concerned, I'd be surprised indeed if the hunting has any real impact on the populations at all, either positive or negative.


Hathor knows I'm no pathologist, but out of curiosity I open the stomach to see what it had been eating (stomachs are always full) and examine the liver, spleen, intestines and lungs. Judging from their size, firmness, and uniform color, the organs always look perfectly healthy to me with no signs of parasitism I can detect. There is always a layer of fat covering the abdominal muscles, but otherwise the animals are quite lean and muscular. Being pigs and needing to wallow, they are sometimes dirty, but it is clean sandy loam with no smell.
If you're "into" that sort of thing, it'd be interesting to look in the intestines for tapeworms and roundworms. There will inevitably be some in virtually any wild mammal's intestines. If there aren't any flukes in the pigs' livers and the spleens aren't suspiciously swollen, it sounds like you've got right healthy animals there.

This isn't surprising, of course. Wild animals will almost always be much healthier than animals raised in factory farms. I doubt very much that many people would eat meat that comes from such places if they knew the conditions under which those animals live. ("Free range" meat is more expensive, of course, but you're getting meat from much healthier animals, generally speaking.)



A lot of people tend to assume that anyone who studies wild animals for a living must be anti-hunting, which I find amusing, since most of the wildlife biologists I know are at least occasional (and many are devoted) hunters and/or fishers.

I do my field work in the Selkirk Mountains of northeastern Washington State, and I'd often encounter hunters while tracking my bunnies. I'd sometimes chat with them, and they were often surprised to find that I'm a biologist but that I had no problems with their hunting. I had a rather amusing conversation with one guy about 2 years ago about white-tailed deer along those lines.

White-tails (Odocoileus virginianus) aren't really native to this part of Washington, but where logging activities and whatnot have opened up the forests, white-tails have invaded. Unfortunately, they're displacing native mule deer and woodland caribou in the process. Worse, the white-tails bring in a viral disease called bluetongue (to which they're quite resistant) that devastates mule deer and moose populations. So, the upshot is that the invasion of white-tails has proved very bad for moose, mulies, and caribou.

So anyway, I was talking to this hunter, and I told him about how bad the white-tails are for the native deer. He asked me what I thought should be done about it. I told him that, in my "professional opinion," the best thing he could do was "shoot as many of 'em as you can." He grinned and said he'd do his part.

As far as feral pigs are concerned, my advice is the same: shoot 'em; shoot as many as you can.



Say, wasn't this thread about horses once upon a time?


Cheers,

Michael

[livius drusus]

It was, Michael, but this sure is one gorgeously fascinating derailment. I'd love to see y'all discuss the pros and cons of hunting in a new thread just so your posts got the attention they deserved (I agree that the original abcess discussion had run its course a couple of days ago), but at the same time, the ryhthm of this thread is just lovely and I could keep reading it as is for weeks.

:appl:

[Dragoon]

...
I wouldn't trade a day of wandering through the woods looking for neat critters for any desk job in the world!

I understand what you are saying. I used to be able to go from my lab to the site any time I wanted to. Then the evil LockMart Corp. bought out my company, they closed my lab and put me in a cubical with no window. My mental attitude and then my career completely fell apart. I put up with it for ten years, (the last five were the worst as we became progressively more Martinized) until I able to afford an early retirement. Except for the money, life is soooooo much better now.


...
While it certainly doesn't apply to all animal populations that are being actively hunted, as far as the foxes, coyotes and pigs that you guys deal with are concerned, I'd be surprised indeed if the hunting has any real impact on the populations at all, either positive or negative.

I'm sure you are right, especially out here, but in England with the fox I think it's a different matter. I really believe that this hateful ban will have unintended consequences.

...
If you're "into" that sort of thing, it'd be interesting to look in the intestines for tapeworms and roundworms. There will inevitably be some in virtually any wild mammal's intestines.

You know, funny you should mention that because I've been collecting pictures of intestinal parasites from the web lately and I plan to do as you suggest next time I'm able. This is crazy, but recently I even bought something I always wanted but never needed, a professional grade microscope and have gathered a whole collection of stains. I don't have a microtome yet though. I plan to take a course in microbiology at the college next door (.35 miles from my house).

Certainly agree that even the healthiest animals should be assumed to carry parasites. I would never dream of eating undercooked or raw anything INCLUDING FISH (not that I would eat fish anyway). Speaking of which, some time ago my cousin caught something from eating some special kind of raw fish lunch at a very swanky place in Santa Barbara. My dad was an MD and a farm boy and I learned this growing up, no pink pork, thank you very much.

...
As far as feral pigs are concerned, my advice is the same: shoot 'em; shoot as many as you can.

Our harvesting of wild pigs has tapered off quite a bit lately.
One big reason is that a lot of ranchers around here have signed contracts with these cursed "hunting clubs" whereby in consideration of a huge fee, the club will take "hunters" on "trophy hunts" and guarantee a mountable "kill." No other killing of pigs by any means is allowed. I hate it!!

Another reason is that it is so expensive to have the pigs butchered. Years ago we had people who would do it real reasonably for the local farmers, but now you have to go to an expensive "custom" shop, with all other slaughter animals shipped out live to wherever in hell they take them. If we want sausage at one of our breakfasts or a barbeque, its a lot cheaper just to buy it at the store (but not nearly as good). The tags aren't that cheap anymore either.

Finally, we have some tender hearted gals who complained bitterly to the masters when I shot my last boar. They were under the impression that I had shot it on my own authority after it was decided to let it go. I was even asked to leave my heater behind on the next ride. What they didn't know (and I don't know to this day if they learned differently) was that it wasn't my idea at all, but I was directed by the huntsman to do it because it was causing so much destruction to the ranch where our kennels are located. So there you have it, anti-hunting sentiments right within a hunt club.

...
Say, wasn't this thread about horses once upon a time?


:yup: It sure was, but I'll second livius drusus' post.

Thanks a lot, this has been a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to "lurking" about and inputting if I think I can make a semi-intelligent contribution.


John

[inland wave]

That is a good idea, lunachick. I'll have to find out if Ace could be donated to The Right Path Riding Academy in Drumright, Oklahoma, the closest handicapped and therapeutic riding facility; they are the only one in the state with indoor facilities. Ace would be especially good with someone leading him. I've seen Roxy lead him in from the pasture with her invisible lead rope several times. She put his halter on, gave it a tug as she started walking with her arm out as though holding a lead rope. He stayed right at her shoulder. Just to show she was in command, she stopped several times and so did he. One of the reasons we bought him was we saw him do his best to stay underneath Roxy when she was a beginning rider. He's just too old and too prone to lameness to ride with anyone very heavy or for much distance any more. Roxy might be more apt to part with him if she knew he was going to be loved and cared for and go to good use, even if we didn't get any money for him.


FYI, I have contacted The Right Path Riding Academy in Drumright. The owner of the academy is coming to the house on Tuesday to look Ace over. She is looking for smaller horses, but she has people all the time asking where they could get a good horse for their families. So with some luck we should get to place him in a good home.