For Warrenly! Jeri Ryan with Her Cuffs Turned Up.

[Seven of Nine]

http://sevenofnine.cherrytaco.com/Star_Trek_Images/Jeri_Ryan/Denim.jpg

[Dingfod]

What cuffs?

[ApostateAbe]

Over the hill.

[Beth]

Over the hill.
I personally think she is very sexy.

[livius drusus]

She's got huge... turned-up cuffs.

[ApostateAbe]

Over the hill.
I personally think she is very sexy.How do you know? Do you get a hard-on when you look at her?

[Dingfod]

OMG, I can think someone is sexy without getting a hardon, can't you Abe?

[John Carter]

Over the hill.
I personally think she is very sexy.How do you know? Do you get a hard-on when you look at her?

Grow up, Abe.

[livius drusus]

Women are amazingly adept at finding someone sexy without getting hard-ons, or so I have read.

[Dingfod]

Women are amazingly adept at finding someone sexy without getting hard-ons, or so I have read.Really? :shock:

[Seven of Nine]

She's got huge... turned-up cuffs.

Yes, her...cuffs are quite large, aren't they?

[Seven of Nine]

Over the hill.

How old are you, Abe?

[ApostateAbe]

Over the hill.

How old are you, Abe?21.

[Seven of Nine]

Over the hill.

How old are you, Abe?21.

Ah. I asked because I even have a few teenaged guy friends who don't feel that way...
However, my brother only saw women much younger than he for a very long, lonely time, so I guess these things can be subjective?
Personally, if a guy has that certain something, I never feel he's over the hill. Or, too young, as long as I couldn't have given birth to them, of course. Even then, I see no problem with enjoying the view. :)

[ApostateAbe]

Over the hill.

How old are you, Abe?21.

Ah. I asked because I even have a few teenaged guy friends who don't feel that way...
However, my brother only saw women much younger than he for a very long, lonely time, so I guess these things can be subjective?
Personally, if a guy has that certain something, I never feel he's over the hill. Or, too young, as long as I couldn't have given birth to them, of course. Even then, I see no problem with enjoying the view. :)Youth matters much more in the minds of men than the minds of women.

That picture of Jeri Ryan makes it look like she has had plastic face surgery and breast implants. That pronounced jaw bone and double chin makes her look like she would have a man-face if you removed the make-up.

If you are a woman, it is hard for you to see these things.

[livius drusus]

If you are a woman, it is hard for you to see these things.

How would you know what is hard for a woman to see, Abe? Obviously not from personal experience on account of you being a man. Do you have lots of very close women friends?

The truth is that women can see other women with a starker eye than you could even imagine. Women are notoriously hypercritical, particularly when it comes to looks. I swear I don't know where you get your notions sometimes.

[ApostateAbe]

If you are a woman, it is hard for you to see these things.

How would you know what is hard for a woman to see, Abe? Obviously not from personal experience on account of you being a man. Do you have lots of very close women friends?

The truth is that women can see other women with a starker eye than you could even imagine. Women are notoriously hypercritical, particularly when it comes to looks. I swear I don't know where you get your notions sometimes.Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains. Feminine beauty depends almost entirely on what men think. But straight women don't have that. Their basis for evaluating feminine beauty comes from what men say is beautiful. It is naturally expected that women overlook the subtleties of feminine beauty.

[livius drusus]

Evidence for any of these assertions, please? Just to be clear, the following claims are currently unsubstantiated.

Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
Feminine beauty depends almost entirely on what men think.
Straight women don't have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
Their basis for evaluating feminine beauty comes from what men say is beautiful.
Women overlook the subtleties of feminine beauty.

Any studies to back any of these claims up? How about anecdotal evidence? How do you explain the prevalence of gay men and straight women in beauty industries?

[ApostateAbe]

Evidence for any of these claims, please?Errrrrr, isn't it all obvious?

[John Carter]

If your assertion was true, Abe, then all straight men would find the same attributes equally attractive. Since this is obviously false, your assessment fails.

[livius drusus]

Not at all, Abe. In fact, I find it all very counter-intuitive. I've elaborated above on the points I'd like to see you support with something more concrete than what seems obvious to you.

[viscousmemories]

Evidence for any of these claims, please?Errrrrr, isn't it all obvious?
You're on a roll these last 24 hours, Abe. :woopdedo:

If you don't feel like you're getting enough attention, you could just say so.

[Seven of Nine]

Over the hill.

How old are you, Abe?21.

Ah. I asked because I even have a few teenaged guy friends who don't feel that way...
However, my brother only saw women much younger than he for a very long, lonely time, so I guess these things can be subjective?
Personally, if a guy has that certain something, I never feel he's over the hill. Or, too young, as long as I couldn't have given birth to them, of course. Even then, I see no problem with enjoying the view. :)Youth matters much more in the minds of men than the minds of women.

That picture of Jeri Ryan makes it look like she has had plastic face surgery and breast implants. That pronounced jaw bone and double chin makes her look like she would have a man-face if you removed the make-up.

If you are a woman, it is hard for you to see these things.

I disagree, Abe. Ms. Ryan has had neither cosmetic facial surgery nor breast implants, and it's quite easy for women of my age to tell that, since both were quite uncommon when I was your age. (I'm 52, btw).
It's especially easy for me to discern the difference for other reasons, one of which is that I've carefully studied hundreds of images of Ms. Ryan, at various ages, both cadid and professional.

It's quite easy, really, for a woman of any age to tell if another woman has had breast implants; we all possess a handy basis for comparison.

In my experience, it's young men who appear to have difficulty telling; I've been asked several times, after showing the first Elvira, Mistress of the Dark film if her boobs are "real" by my young male friends.

Anyone who wants to see how such surgery radically can radically alter the looks of a woman has only to watch early episodes of Home Improvement, in which a young Pamela Lee plays the "Tooltime Girl", or, for that matter, episodes of "The Sonny and Cher Show", although Cher has been far more careful in the changes she has allowed her surgeon to make.

[ApostateAbe]

Not at all, Abe. In fact, I find it all very counter-intuitive. I've elaborated above on the points I'd like to see you support with something more concrete than what seems obvious to you.
OK, let's start with the first one:



Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
According to June Reinish of the Kinsey Institute, although some elements of sexual attraction and preferences are learned from our environment, some are "built into our brains". source (http://www.umkc.edu/sites/hsw/other/evolution.html)

Any dispute?

[Seven of Nine]

If you are a woman, it is hard for you to see these things.

How would you know what is hard for a woman to see, Abe? Obviously not from personal experience on account of you being a man. Do you have lots of very close women friends?

The truth is that women can see other women with a starker eye than you could even imagine. Women are notoriously hypercritical, particularly when it comes to looks. I swear I don't know where you get your notions sometimes.

Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains. Feminine beauty depends almost entirely on what men think. But straight women don't have that. Their basis for evaluating feminine beauty comes from what men say is beautiful. It is naturally expected that women overlook the subtleties of feminine beauty.

liv has already made a stunningly good argument, with which most men I know would readily agree.

I'd just like to add these points:

1. If the vast majority of straight women truly couldn't appreciate the subtleties of feminine beauty, most films and TV shows would have been dismal failures, and there is no better proof of that than the popularity with women of the Star Trek TV series.
Straight women very much appreciate the beauty of such women as Terry Farrell, Nichelle Nichols, Jeri Ryan, and Marina Sirtis, even though they are not at all of one "type". If straight women only perceived them as beautiful to men, and not to themselves, those who fall short, in comparison, couldn't identify with them closely enough to enjoy their performances.
Why watch a show or film which only serves to point out how dowdy you are to men? :D

2. There are many outwardly attractive women who lack a basic inner beauty which causes both men and women to find "less" attractive women more far more beautiful than those who might as well be department store mannequins.

A biker boyfriend of mine once summed this up when he said, "Women have something better than balls: they have heart.

[Seven of Nine]

Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
According to June Reinish of the Kinsey Institute, although some elements of sexual attraction and preferences are learned from our environment, some are "built into our brains". source (http://www.umkc.edu/sites/hsw/other/evolution.html)

Any dispute?

I don't dipute this very basic statement at all, Abe. What I dispute is that only men have an appreciation for feminine beauty "built into their brains".

[ApostateAbe]

Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
According to June Reinish of the Kinsey Institute, although some elements of sexual attraction and preferences are learned from our environment, some are "built into our brains". source (http://www.umkc.edu/sites/hsw/other/evolution.html)

Any dispute?

I don't dipute this very basic statement at all, Abe. What I dispute is that only men have an appreciation for feminine beauty "built into their brains".OK, if I can find a study that addresses perception of feminine beauty in female brains, I will let you know (no luck so far). But before I do, I would like to hear from livius why she included #1 in the list of claims she called clearly unsubstantiated. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding.

[Seven of Nine]

Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
According to June Reinish of the Kinsey Institute, although some elements of sexual attraction and preferences are learned from our environment, some are "built into our brains". source (http://www.umkc.edu/sites/hsw/other/evolution.html)

Any dispute?

I don't dispute this very basic statement at all, Abe. What I dispute is that only men have an appreciation for feminine beauty "built into their brains".OK, if I can find a study that addresses perception of feminine beauty in female brains, I will let you know (no luck so far). But before I do, I would like to hear from livius why she included #1 in the list of claims she called clearly unsubstantiated. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding.

A study??? C'mon, Abe; gimme a break, willya? :D

I hate to disappoint you, partner, but you aren't going to be able to google up any real understanding of women's perception of feminine beauty, no matter how much time you spend trying.

If Dr. Kinsey hadn't been aware of this, there would be no Kinsey Institute. Dr. Kinsey was originally a gall wasp taxonomist, and he was a spitter; not a lumper. He went right out where gall wasps lived and studied them right there.

When he got stuck teaching the new IU marriage class, and found no relevant research (at least, by his standards), he knew perfectly well that he would have to do the same thing with people, if he wanted to learn anything valuable about them, and so will you.

So, Abe, I strongly suggest that you spend the next several years getting to know what lots of actual women think and feel, rather than insisting that they refute your arguments about what they think and feel, and then form your opinions.




btw, Alfred Kinsey fans, according to Sephen Jay Gould, who did a brilliant short article on Kinsey's work, there is a copy of his groundbreaking monograph on gall wasps in the Harvard library. Across the flyleaf, someone has scrawled,

"Why don't you write about something more interesting, Al?"

[livius drusus]

Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
According to June Reinish of the Kinsey Institute, although some elements of sexual attraction and preferences are learned from our environment, some are "built into our brains". source (http://www.umkc.edu/sites/hsw/other/evolution.html)

Any dispute?

Sure. First of all, this description of a study on a general human sexuality website leaves many questions of protocol, scope and results unanswered, but even setting that aside, I don't see how the excerpt you've quoted substantiates your claim at all.

Your claim is that straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains. The study description does not even claim to apply only to men, nevermind straight men, nor is "some elements of sexual attraction" synonymous with "beauty meter" by any stretch of the imagination. Beauty is not the sole arbiter of sexual attraction, after all, and you have no way of knowing at this point that beauty isn't one of the elements learned from environment rather than ingrained in the hypothalamus.

Perhaps the hypothalamus deals with more visceral reactions than noting incipient double chins or plastic surgery scars. The description on the site you're quoting certainly indicates that possibility when it describes the hypothalamus as "deep in the primitive part of the human brain".

Most women in our society are well-versed in conventional standards of beauty from both sides of the fence: as consumers and observers. Most men do not have this enhanced perspective. It is a strong understanding of these conventional norms which underlies the ability to critique physical appearance according to certain culturally-determined yardsticks, imo, not the hormonal triggers of the hypothalamus.

Finally, I would again point out that this kind of biological determinism has little to no explanatory power when confronting the large number of gay men and straight women in industries like fashion.

[ApostateAbe]

Straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains.
According to June Reinish of the Kinsey Institute, although some elements of sexual attraction and preferences are learned from our environment, some are "built into our brains". source (http://www.umkc.edu/sites/hsw/other/evolution.html)

Any dispute?

Sure. First of all, this description of a study on a general human sexuality website leaves many questions of protocol, scope and results unanswered, but even setting that aside, I don't see how the excerpt you've quoted substantiates your claim at all.

Your claim is that straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains. The study description does not even claim to apply only to men, nevermind straight men, nor is "some elements of sexual attraction" synonymous with "beauty meter" by any stretch of the imagination. Beauty is not the sole arbiter of sexual attraction, after all, and you have no way of knowing at this point that beauty isn't one of the elements learned from environment rather than ingrained in the hypothalamus.

Perhaps the hypothalamus deals with more visceral reactions than noting incipient double chins or plastic surgery scars. The description on the site you're quoting certainly indicates that possibility when it describes the hypothalamus as "deep in the primitive part of the human brain".

Most women in our society are well-versed in conventional standards of beauty from both sides of the fence: as consumers and observers. Most men do not have this enhanced perspective. It is a strong understanding of these conventional norms which underlies the ability to critique physical appearance according to certain culturally-determined yardsticks, imo, not the hormonal triggers of the hypothalamus.

Finally, I would again point out that this kind of biological determinism has little to no explanatory power when confronting the large number of gay men and straight women in industries like fashion.OK, we haven't gotten past claim #1, so we will stick with that.


To be clear, take note that claim #1 does not say that "only straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains."


If you disagree that appearence of sexual attractiveness is synonymous with beauty, then we are operating under two different definitions. Replace "beauty" with "sexually enticing appearance" and we will be on the same page.


Here is another report that indicates feminine beauty meters are built into the brains of men.


http://www.splittree.org/misc_pages/beautyresponse.htm

Study: Beauty is like food, drugs to male brain (from Seattle Times, Nov. 10, 2001)

BOSTON--Seeing a beautiful woman triggers a pleasure response in a man's brain similar to what a hungry person gets from eating or an addict gets from a fix, scientists say.

Researchers said the study, published Wednesday in the journal Neuron, shows that feminine beauty affects a man's brain at a very primal level, not on some higher, more intellectual plane.

"Beauty is working similar to a drug," said Dan Ariely of Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, a co-author of the study.

Researchers showed a group of heterosexual men in their mid-20s pictures of men and women of varying attractiveness, while measuring the brain's responses through computer imaging.

The beautiful women were found to activate the same "reward circuits" a food and cocaine do. The men had a negative reaction to pictures of good-looking males, suggesting they were threatened by them, study author Hans Breiter said.

[Seven of Nine]

Abe, Abe. Placed against liv's lifetime of experience and her obvious comprehension of what makes a study mostly likely to be accurate (and a applicable), your few googled studies and your insistence on "winning" are unlikely to prevail here.

Whether you like it, or not, the more psychology I read, the more obvious it becomes how little we actually know, and how few researchers are as determined, painstaking, and dedicated to the gonzo-sized and carefully crafted studies as Dr. Kinsey was.

Also, it's a bit late in the day to be redefining your terms.
If you meant "sexual attractiveness" only, you should have used those words from the get-go.
We've followed your lead in using "feminine beauty" all along, and liv isn't the only one who has catagorized it as more than sexual atrractiveness...without a word of objection from you until now.
If that's all you think feminine beauty consists of, I'm unsure why we're even bothering to discuss this, because I know for a fact that the opposite isn't true for me: masculine beauty consists of so very much more than outward appearance.

The orginal point of this thread was to give warrenly a nice gift. This vivisection you're attempting of this mysterious and wonderful thing we call "beauty" is most likely to result in its dead, cold, mutilated corpse lying on a table, its glory departed, but, thankfully, my gift will be unaffected.
The poet's words "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." are far more germane than a hundred flawed studies on human sexuality, and that's why they'll be remembered when all those studies are outmoded or refuted and forgotten.

[Seven of Nine]

Perhaps the hypothalamus deals with more visceral reactions than noting incipient double chins or plastic surgery scars. The description on the site you're quoting certainly indicates that possibility when it describes the hypothalamus as "deep in the primitive part of the human brain".

Supposing that the hypothalamus is involved (which we don't actually know), you're coorect when you assert that its effect would be on our deepest, most viceral reactions.

<snip>

Finally, I would again point out that this kind of biological determinism has little to no explanatory power when confronting the large number of gay men and straight women in industries like fashion.

Correctomundo! We don't know shit from shinola about any aspect of human emotional responses, and, whereas, we might actually make it to Mars in my lifetime, I expect the same, tired nature-nurture debate to continue when I'm gone.
Someday, I do believe we will know far more than we now do, but we will never suceed in quantifying and reifying human nature until it's reduced to something of little complexity, which can be tidily nailed down for 101 students in the lecture hall.
The least of us is more than that: an amazing gestalt which is, as we all know gestalten to be, always greater than the sum of its parts.

[ApostateAbe]

Abe, Abe. Placed against liv's lifetime of experience and her obvious comprehension of what makes a study mostly likely to be accurate (and a applicable), your few googled studies and your insistence on "winning" are unlikely to prevail here.Probably. I haven't won an argument against liv.

Whether you like it, or not, the more psychology I read, the more obvious it becomes how little we actually know, and how few researchers are as determined, painstaking, and dedicated to the gonzo-sized and carefully crafted studies as Dr. Kinsey was. Perhaps psychological studies are not to be trusted, but what else can we trust?

Also, it's a bit late in the day to be redefining your terms.
If you meant "sexual attractiveness" only, you should have used those words from the get-go.
We've followed your lead in using "feminine beauty" all along, and liv isn't the only one who has catagorized it as more than sexual atrractiveness...without a word of objection from you until now.
If that's all you think feminine beauty consists of, I'm unsure why we're even bothering to discuss this, because I know for a fact that the opposite isn't true for me: masculine beauty consists of so very much more than outward appearance.Then I apologize. Ever since Beth said, "I personally think she is very sexy," we have been speaking in the context of sexual attractiveness.

The orginal point of this thread was to give warrenly a nice gift. This vivisection you're attempting of this mysterious and wonderful thing we call "beauty" is most likely to result in its dead, cold, mutilated corpse lying on a table, its glory departed, but, thankfully, my gift will be unaffected.
The poet's words "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." are far more germane than a hundred flawed studies on human sexuality, and that's why they'll be remembered when all those studies are outmoded or refuted and forgotten.Sorry about that.

[beyelzu]

Over the hill.

How old are you, Abe?21.

Ah. I asked because I even have a few teenaged guy friends who don't feel that way...
However, my brother only saw women much younger than he for a very long, lonely time, so I guess these things can be subjective?
Personally, if a guy has that certain something, I never feel he's over the hill. Or, too young, as long as I couldn't have given birth to them, of course. Even then, I see no problem with enjoying the view. :)Youth matters much more in the minds of men than the minds of women.

That picture of Jeri Ryan makes it look like she has had plastic face surgery and breast implants. That pronounced jaw bone and double chin makes her look like she would have a man-face if you removed the make-up.

If you are a woman, it is hard for you to see these things.


I guess we have different shit hardwired in our brains, cuz I would damn sure do the delectable jeri ryan.

she is definitely beautiful. I dont particularly dig the dark blue denim, it makes me think of the cheap cheap clothes at walmart that I had to wear as a kid. but that picture is hot and I dont know if her breasts are fake or not, but they damn sure look fine.

shit, since I disagree with you and you speak so authoritatively on what straight men find attractive, I must be gay. shit.

oh well :gaypride:

[Seven of Nine]

[QUOTE=Seven of Nine]Abe, Abe. Placed against liv's lifetime of experience and her obvious comprehension of what makes a study mostly likely to be accurate (and a applicable), your few googled studies and your insistence on "winning" are unlikely to prevail here.

Probably. I haven't won an argument against liv.

I supect I'd be just as hard-pressed to win in a debate with liv.
My point was, however, that you could be using her as a source, and that would be profitable indeed.

Whether you like it, or not, the more psychology I read, the more obvious it becomes how little we actually know, and how few researchers are as determined, painstaking, and dedicated to the gonzo-sized and carefully crafted studies as Dr. Kinsey was.

Perhaps psychological studies are not to be trusted, but what else can we trust?

> Some psychological studies can be trusted, but they must be firmly founded on their subjects, not the other way around.
>They should consist of a random sample; a horrifying number of studies have as their subjects either college students, or white rats. Kinsey did his best to include all races, creeds and colors in his, and was the first to adapt Gallup's polling methods to a psychological study.
(A fine book on this subject is called, Even the Rat Was White.)
>It's vitally important to have the largest sample possible. Kinsey himself commented with horror on the number of studies with only thirty or so subjects, and that hasn't changed. (Kinsey felt that his sampling of over 3,000 members of each gender wasn't adequate.)
>Lab studies must be double-blinded, and should have a control group, and field studies must also be carefully designed to eliminate as much bias as possible.
(Anthropology has been a fruitful tool when it comes to field studies because they can be compared cross-culturally.)
>We must give other scientists time to replicate new studies before trusting them.
>We must keep in mind that studies in human behavior can become outmoded in a very short time, and studies of the brain can become obsolete as more accurate equipment is developed.
>Our minds and personality cannot not actualy be artifically divided into disparate parts, so studies on the brain, for instance, can't truly be considered apart from the many other types. It's people who do this who become trapped in that endless nature-nurture debate.

I hope I'm not boring you, Abe.

Also, it's a bit late in the day to be redefining your terms.
If you meant "sexual attractiveness" only, you should have used those words from the get-go.
We've followed your lead in using "feminine beauty" all along...without a word of objection from you until now.
...I know for a fact that the opposite isn't true for me: masculine beauty consists of so very much more than outward appearance.

Then I apologize. Ever since Beth said, "I personally think she is very sexy," we have been speaking in the context of sexual attractiveness.

Please don't apologize; I'm not leaving sexuality out; I'm saying that a person's beauty consists of far more than that.
For instance, if that photo causes you to feel that Ms. Ryan is artificially enhanced when she isn't, and therefore "fake", then that photo may have somehow failed to speak to you of Ms. Ryan herself. Perhaps you might find that the photo spread of her with her dogs in Pet Life brings out her beauty for you. Do you see what I mean, Abe?

The orginal point of this thread was to give warrenly a nice gift. This vivisection you're attempting of this mysterious and wonderful thing we call "beauty" is most likely to result in its dead, cold, mutilated corpse lying on a table, its glory departed, but, thankfully, my gift will be unaffected.
The poet's words "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." are far more germane than a hundred flawed studies on human sexuality, and that's why they'll be remembered when all those studies are outmoded or refuted and forgotten.

Sorry about that.

C'mon, Abe; I'm not upset that you're debating; usually, my threads are notorious failures, so I'm pleased that you want to post here, believe me!
I'm just saying that we have to factor everything in at the end of the day, not deconstruct only and then call the result truth.
I often wish psychology were a hard science, so that more suffering people could be cured, but it just isn't. That doesn't mean that it can't be useful, though.

[seebs]

Nice wrists. I can see why you'd want to see her with her cuffs turned up.

[Dingfod]

Oddly enough, I don't really find Jeri Ryan to be a classic beauty, she does have one hell of a body, but there is just something about her that isn't defineable that is just sexy as hell even without seeing her body, sort of in the Madonna and Marilyn Monroe way.

But, plastic surgery, no way; I've seen pics of Ms. Ryan dating back more than a decade, I think she shows the signs of natural aging that one would expect for a woman would between 25 and 36 years of age (she was born 1968), the crows feet, the slight sag to the breasts, the jawline, etc.

Here's another beautiful unenhanced woman over 30, Natasha Henstridge:
http://www.thefilmasylum.com/albums/Natasha-Henstridge/k.jpg
Is she over the hill too, Abe?

[livius drusus]

To be clear, take note that claim #1 does not say that "only straight men have feminine beauty meters built into their brains."

That was clearly implied, however, by your conclusion that women are less able to quantify female beauty than straight men. Do you mean to say now that you actually believe that everyone, no matter what gender or sexual orientation, have feminine beauty meters built into their brains? Because it seems to me that unless you are willing to go that far, there is no study you can point to which will explain the prevalence of gay male and straight female fashion designers, hair stylists, etc.

If you disagree that appearence of sexual attractiveness is synonymous with beauty, then we are operating under two different definitions. Replace "beauty" with "sexually enticing appearance" and we will be on the same page.

Sorry Abe, but you're still not defining your terms at all well. Your earlier post here indicated that Jeri Ryan is not sexy to you because you detected evidence of plastic surgery and double chins. That's not visceral sexual appeal at all; it's a detailed comparison of the minutiae of a woman's appearance against external standards of beauty.

Incidentally, do you have any response to Seven or warrenly's claim that you are wrong in your conclusions wrt Ryan's surgical history?

Here is another report that indicates feminine beauty meters are built into the brains of men.

Again, I don't see how this study supports your claim at all. The fact that straight men get a rush from seeing a beautiful woman doesn't mean that standards of beauty aren't culturally determined rather than ingrained. Besides, even if I did accept that brain chemistry is the sole or main determinant of sexual appeal, the reaction to handsome men would indicate that straight men have a masculine beauty meter built into their brain as well; it's just the reaction to that beauty which changes dependent on attraction, not the ability to perceive it.

So by that study, straight women could have the exact same beauty detector you claim for straight men, only I bet straight women would not recoil from beautiful women the way men do from handsome men. If that's so, even by your own standards women might be far better able to assess feminine beauty than men.

[Seven of Nine]

Ms. Henstridge is lovely, warrenly, yet she doesn't have much in common in looks with Ms. Ryan except that neither are "classic" beauties.

Just before his accident Christopher Reeve commented on his own male beauty, saying that he believed that his features were far too regular, making his face too inexpressive for fine acting performances, and that he was glad to be getting older because age was adding some character to his face. I didn't personally think he had a "Ken doll" appearance at all, but if he had had his overbite corrected, then he might have.

And what do we do with such actors as Billy Ray Thornton and Kathy Bates. I find them both beautiful: they both have that indefinable "something", warrenly.

Abe, check out this Ryan photo, if you don't mind. I'd be interested to know if it scores higher on your beauty meter than the first.

http://sevenofnine.cherrytaco.com/Star_Trek_Images/Jeri_Ryan/Plaid_Railing.jpg

[Dingfod]

And what do we do with such actors as Billy Ray Thornton and Kathy Bates. I find them both beautiful: they both have that indefinable "something", warrenly.Yes they do. I've got some indefinable "something" too, but it's ugly.

[viscousmemories]

Yes they do. I've got some indefinable "something" too, but it's ugly.
:chuckle:

[inland wave]

Great body,ugly as sin face. She is a brown bagger.

[Dingfod]

Who, Jeri Ryan? Or me? No, wait. You said "She". Couldn't be Natasha Henstridge, so it must have been Jeri Ryan. Heretic!

[inland wave]

Don't know anthing about Natasha whatever, but I am sure you will fill me in. :yup:

[Dingfod]

Scroll up the page until you see the woman in the white bikini. Her main claim to fame is the Species series of movies.

[Dragar]

I always found Seven-of-Nine (the character) more sexy than the actress.

The first picture of Jeri Ryan is sexier. The second one, she looks prettier.

She's not 'perfect'(-to-me), but perfection is over rated.

And that's my contribution to this thread.

[Sweetie]

My husband drools over that woman.

I've never seen the attraction though, to be honest. I've asked him, why? :chin:

[Godless Dave]

I don't like the way her face or breasts look in that particular picture. But she is definitely a hottie in my book.

[godfry n. glad]

The truth is that women can see other women with a starker eye than you could even imagine. Women are notoriously hypercritical, particularly when it comes to looks. I swear I don't know where you get your notions sometimes.


I seem to remember some pin-up queen of the 70s-80s (I believe it was Raquel Welch) stating in an interview that she'd much rather disrobe in front of a man, or men, than a woman, or women. The men would be thankful for anything they got to see that they normally wouldn't, while the women would be making critical commentaries on all aspects. From what I've heard, this is why so many women dislike taking public showers with other women...in places like gyms. This is all second-hand, though (the first one having become exhausted).

As a heterosexual male, I think Abe is totally off-base, too. I have several variant ideals of what I consider erotic in women. Much of it has to do with faces, but the typical "ideal" (as I understand it as being presented in the likes of celebrities and supermodels) tends to put me off in the real world. I've found the actual personalities of women who tend fit the type to be incredibly self-centered, spoiled and shallow. I've always suspected that this is because they've never had to work for attention (my apologies to Roland98). Whereas, the woman who is a tad unsure of her beauty, because she's tall, or a bit plain, or her face is not symmetrical, or she's smarter than the average male (or most males)...whatever...these woman I have found to be exciting, fun and erotic. They tend to work hard to make up for not meeting what they perceive to be some kind of beauty standard. That works for a goofy-looking guy like me.... :D

Jerri Ryan does nothing for me. Janeane Garofalo does more for me. Sandy Bullock does more for me. Julia Stiles does more for me. Sandra Oh does it for me. Lucy Liu, preferably without makeup, does it for me. Drew Barrymore and Rachel Weisz can do it, too. I really dig watching women's volleyball....tall, muscular. Me: short, flabby. Is this reality. No.

Sure is fun, though.

Jeri Ryan.....eh, so what?

Does she even have an... :donkey: ? I certainly don't see one in that picture.

[godfry n. glad]

Sandy B (http://www.cinema-stars.com/bullock/imageHtms/29.htm)

This far outshines every Jeri Ryan picture I've ever seen....

And she's over 40 and I'd bet she's had no plastic surgery.

But then, Warn has his tastes, I have mine...

[Shake]

Sandy B (http://www.cinema-stars.com/bullock/imageHtms/29.htm)

This far outshines every Jeri Ryan picture I've ever seen....

And she's over 40 and I'd bet she's had no plastic surgery.

But then, Warn has his tastes, I have mine...
No, she just turned 40! Any true fan of Sandy's would know that! :clever:

But seriously, I'm with you on that. Sandy RAWKS!

[Shake]

Speaking of Ms. B ... apparently, she was on Letterman last night. I taped it, and will hopefully get to check it out tonight! :D

[Roland98]

As a heterosexual male, I think Abe is totally off-base, too. I have several variant ideals of what I consider erotic in women. Much of it has to do with faces, but the typical "ideal" (as I understand it as being presented in the likes of celebrities and supermodels) tends to put me off in the real world. I've found the actual personalities of women who tend fit the type to be incredibly self-centered, spoiled and shallow. I've always suspected that this is because they've never had to work for attention (my apologies to Roland98). Whereas, the woman who is a tad unsure of her beauty, because she's tall, or a bit plain, or her face is not symmetrical, or she's smarter than the average male (or most males)...whatever...these woman I have found to be exciting, fun and erotic. They tend to work hard to make up for not meeting what they perceive to be some kind of beauty standard. That works for a goofy-looking guy like me....

I'm lost in how I fit into this. If you think I'm even close to the same league as the other women mentioned in this thread, that's because I only put up pics where I actually look decent; I am so, so, sooooo not even close to any kind of pinup-girl hot like Jeri and Natasha and Sandra. And I'd never, ever, ever, ever put one up of me in a bikini...because I agree with others that women are much more critical than men, and after 2 kids, I notice every stretch mark and every little dimple of cellulite, and the difference in the shape of my breasts pre- and post-kids, and, well, all of my other "imperfections" that I'm not going to list here so as to not draw attention to them. :)


(Sorry for the slight thread necromancy; I always read from work and generally don't dare to open up the sexuality forum. ;) )

[godfry n. glad]

As a heterosexual male, I think Abe is totally off-base, too. I have several variant ideals of what I consider erotic in women. Much of it has to do with faces, but the typical "ideal" (as I understand it as being presented in the likes of celebrities and supermodels) tends to put me off in the real world. I've found the actual personalities of women who tend fit the type to be incredibly self-centered, spoiled and shallow. I've always suspected that this is because they've never had to work for attention (my apologies to Roland98). Whereas, the woman who is a tad unsure of her beauty, because she's tall, or a bit plain, or her face is not symmetrical, or she's smarter than the average male (or most males)...whatever...these woman I have found to be exciting, fun and erotic. They tend to work hard to make up for not meeting what they perceive to be some kind of beauty standard. That works for a goofy-looking guy like me....

I'm lost in how I fit into this. If you think I'm even close to the same league as the other women mentioned in this thread, that's because I only put up pics where I actually look decent; I am so, so, sooooo not even close to any kind of pinup-girl hot like Jeri and Natasha and Sandra. And I'd never, ever, ever, ever put one up of me in a bikini...because I agree with others that women are much more critical than men, and after 2 kids, I notice every stretch mark and every little dimple of cellulite, and the difference in the shape of my breasts pre- and post-kids, and, well, all of my other "imperfections" that I'm not going to list here so as to not draw attention to them. :)


(Sorry for the slight thread necromancy; I always read from work and generally don't dare to open up the sexuality forum. ;) )

Apology unnecessary, but explanation appreciated.

I am most assuredly not asking you to post swimwear pictures or any other incriminating evidence of your stunning beauty. You've done plenty.

You are included because, "in the day" I'd bet you had no problem "getting a date". Either you had a boyfriend from the get-go or you broke hearts as you plowed through high school and university. I think you are a very attractive young woman, but I'm an old coot. You don't fool me, young lady, you had the pick of the litter when it came to young men. In your day. You still do, but you're a lot pickier now. And can afford to be.

And...yeah, yeah, yeah.... I've heard Sandy say the same in interviews. She says it's all the makeup and costume. She's just "regular Sandy" most of the time. She's tall and skinny with no tits and snorts like a mule when she laughs hard. Yadda yadda yadda...

Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder. :rootbeer: I'll have a Blue Heron, please.

godfry n. appreciative

[Shake]

Finally got around to watching the Letterman episode. He grilled her about her b/f, Jesse James, about who she didn't say anything. It was very funny to watch, because it's not often you see celebrities squirm like that. They're usually pretty good at handling most any question thrown at them.

Anyway, later, Dave had Gwen Stefani on, and my wife noticed that when she was sitting down -- wearing little short-shorts -- that you could see some cellulite on her legs! The wife pointed this out very excitedly, I might add. I noticed it too, but to me, it didn't detract from the fact that Gwen is still a hottie with nice legs, too!

[godfry n. glad]

Anyway, later, Dave had Gwen Stefani on, and my wife noticed that when she was sitting down -- wearing little short-shorts -- that you could see some cellulite on her legs! The wife pointed this out very excitedly, I might add. I noticed it too, but to me, it didn't detract from the fact that Gwen is still a hottie with nice legs, too!

Um... Were the short-shorts short enough to ascertain whether she's an "airplane blonde"?

[Shake]

Unfortunately not. Lucky guy, that Gavin.