Out of fashion punctuation marks.

[ceptimus]

I thought it might be interesting, for me anyway, to have a discussion about semicolons and colons: examples of correct and incorrect usage; whether you think they're even worth bothering with nowadays, and so on. I've always been uneasy using them - and I never know where I should use dashes and hyphens either. Then there are parentheses (which I over-use) and exotica like the tilde, which I would like to use but don't know how.

Anyway, I'm pretty certain that I'll have made many grammatic and punctuation mistakes in this post, and I apologise in advance to anyone upset by them. Please feel free to point out my errors, if you wish.

[John Carter]

A semicolon is used to connect two complete sentences into one. Thus if you can substitute a period for the semicolon and have two complete sentences you have used it correctly. It is a stylistic thing; you can always avoid it by using a full stop instead.

I must admit I have no clue as to when a tilde would be used in English punctuation.

As to your use of punctuation in the OP, I think your use of the colon was correct, and the semicolon was technically correct but stylistically awkward since the first word after the semicolon is a conjunction. On the other hand, I'm certainly no grammar nazi; I sometimes intentionally violate established rules of grammar or usage.

My punctuational pet peeve is the misuse of commas. Sprinkling a sentence with unnecessary commas can be distracting and make your writing much harder to follow. This phenomenon, seems to be closely associated with runon sentences, which is another topic, but is even more annoying. So if you really want to get my goat, write in runon sentences with randomly inserted commas.

[Dingfod]

I'm sure I've posted this somewhere before; it might have been posted at IIDB, or possibly here, I don't remember. At a one-day business communications seminar I attended about 15 years ago, we were taught to use punctuation to make written communcations flow like it is spoken, using commas to break where there would normally be a pause for effect. The instructor left the impression more than necessary use of punctuation was better than not enough.

~and~

I must say, I learned more in that one-day class than four years of high school English. Perhaps some of what was taught wasn't exactly by-the-rules grammar, but it was one of the most effective classes I've ever taken.

[John Carter]

At a one-day business communications seminar I attended about 15 years ago, we were taught to use punctuation to make written communcations flow like it is spoken, using commas to break where there would normally be a pause for effect. The instructor left the impression more than necessary use of punctuation was better than not enough.


Yes, that is the proper use of a comma. I've found that some people insert commas where a pause would break up the flow of a sentence, making it seem choppy. I'm not sure I agree that more than necessary use of punctuation is better than not enough. It's a matter of degree, I think. Personally, I would have used only one comma in the first sentence I quoted above. However, the extra comma (the first one between ago and we) is not the kind of overkill I am talking about. In some ways its another style thing. What I am objecting to is the massive overuse of commas were pauses are completely unnatural.

[Dingfod]

To me the phrase "At a one-day business communications seminar I attended 15 years ago" is extraneous to "we were taught..." and everything after that, therefor the comma, although it would certainly work without it.

[Seven of Nine]

I was taught minimal use of punctuation, ala F. Scott Fitzgerald, so it bewilders me to see a comma placed before the conjunction "and", and to have a semi-colon do anything but replace "and".
I find myself trying to litter my posts with what I think of as "extra" punctuation marks, in imitation of younger people, when I should probably refrain.
It's strange to see such a different style of punctuation taught in colleges here, and it makes it very hard to tutor students in English now.

[Seven of Nine]

Anyway, I'm pretty certain that I'll have made many grammatic and punctuation mistakes in this post, and I apologise in advance to anyone upset by them. Please feel free to point out my errors, if you wish.

Ceptimus, I was taught that the function is punctuation is to make writing clear and understandable. You writing always is, so I'm happy. :)

[Dingfod]

I notice you didn't extend the same compliment to my writing. Duly noted.

[Crumb]

write in runon sentences with randomly inserted commas.

:duck: I have a problem with doing this. If I don't intentionally review my writings looking for unnecessary commas, they inevitably congregate. :blush2:

[SharonDee]

I'm usually pretty forgiving of grammatical mistakes; otherwise I risk being hoisted by me own petard. But there's one guy I read on a journal site who's always putting commas in odd places. It drives me nuts.
Maybe the reason, my wife feels that she is overweight is that she eats out so often.


Since, I was late, she felt that she couldn't do this.


Since, I was late I had to hang out for the debate.


Since, I am not Christ, I take this as a smart assed comment.
:hrm:

[Dingfod]

On this very subject, I bought a copy of Eats, Shoots and Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach To Punctuation for my daughter. I saw it in her room the other night. I need to read it, I guess. It's supposed to be an entertaining read.

[SharonDee]

I got that book for my birthday last year. For Christmas I got the CD of the programme (it's British) that inspired the book. It's fun stuff!

[John Carter]

I'm usually pretty forgiving of grammatical mistakes; otherwise I risk being hoisted by me own petard. But there's one guy I read on a journal site who's always putting commas in odd places. It drives me nuts.
Maybe the reason, my wife feels that she is overweight is that she eats out so often.


Since, I was late, she felt that she couldn't do this.


Since, I was late I had to hang out for the debate.


Since, I am not Christ, I take this as a smart assed comment.
:hrm:

/me shivers.

That's exactly the kind of thing I mean by "randomly inserted commas".

[lisarea]

Colons separate independent clauses, usually when the second is some kind of reiteration or explanation of the first one or something. It doesn't have to be a complete sentence, but a lot of the time it is.

He said something that she would take with her to her grave: "Pie is overrated."

I got the stuff: rope, duct tape, and a box cutter.

I'll tell you why I won't marry you: hate.

Semicolons are used for lots of things, too, but they're mostly just inflated commas. So, if you have a list of things separated by commas, and some of those list items have internal commas, you use a semicolon to separate them. You can also use them at your discretion in some colon and comma instances. You can use them to join two clauses where you might otherwise use a period to distance the clauses, or a comma and a conjunction.

I looked around for the gun, but all I found was a candy bar with a tack, a peppercorn, and a couple of stray hairs stuck to it; a cheap romance with half a cover; an old hair curler; and what I think used to be a bowl of soup.

Tony wasn't used to fighting, but this time he had to; that charcoal bone looked delicious.

I'm probably forgetting some other stuff, too.

Oh. Also: I use them however the heck I feel like, just in case someone was going to try to turn me into some kind of counterexample.

And the comma thing: I also endorse using a comma on the final element in a series because of the "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God" argument. Punctuation is supposed to make the written language clearer. Leaving out the final serial comma doesn't serve that purpose. It just saves space is all.

I think the custom of leaving it out is something they taught us old people for a while in the US, but I'm pretty sure the tide has turned and most grade-school English teachers now endorse the practice. Which puts the lie to my claim that I do it because it makes sense. I'm really only doing it to look younger.

[viscousmemories]

"To my parents, Ayn Rand and God"
That's hilarious; I've never seen that before.

[TomJoe]

Personally ... I'm a big fan of the ellipsis.

[livius drusus]

Ew.

[viscousmemories]

Personally ... I'm a big fan of the ellipsis.
I would've said that's an improper use of the ellipsis, but apparently I was wrong (http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/ellipsis.htm). Still, I would have definitely favored a comma if I were you, since I don't expect you intended a particularly long pause after 'Personally'. But maybe that's how you talk ...

(I also learned that there's supposed to be a space before the first dot. Didn't know that.)

[squian]

Nobody mentioned the use of semicolons with conjunctive adverbs; therefore, let me add one more use of semicolons to the list.

I am frequently torn between the semicolon and the dash -- somehow I feel the semicolon is more correct while the dash has more dramatic pause.

Any thoughts on when to use ampersand? The only time I ever use it is when I want to make a list of things fit on one line in a PowerPoint presentation. Otherwise, I always prefer to spell out "and".

[Dingfod]

&?

[TomJoe]

Personally ... I'm a big fan of the ellipsis.
I would've said that's an improper use of the ellipsis, but apparently I was wrong (http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/ellipsis.htm). Still, I would have definitely favored a comma if I were you, since I don't expect you intended a particularly long pause after 'Personally'. But maybe that's how you talk ...

(I also learned that there's supposed to be a space before the first dot. Didn't know that.)

I am ... a fan ... of ... William ... Shatner's!

[TomJoe]

... while the dash has more dramatic pause.


The -- can be used as an ellipsis as well.

[lisarea]

(I also learned that there's supposed to be a space before the first dot. Didn't know that.)

Ewww.

I didn't know that, either, and in fact, I still don't know it. I outright REJECT that convention.

If I have to go get me a special grammar-sounding domain name and make a little webpage with clipart of a shelf of books to establish my authority in rejecting this convention, I will. If I have to sign up for a basketweaving class at some community college to get a website with .edu at the end of it, I will do that, too.

Ain't nobody going to make me surround ellipses with spaces.

Ugly. Just ugly. I'm not going to do it, and no dumbassed grade school language arts stylist can make me.

I am going to send an email to the address at the bottom of that page and tell them to bite me. I'm also going to say "Neener," probably.

[viscousmemories]

I am ... a fan ... of ... William ... Shatner's!
:chuckle:

That's an interesting question about &. And the only formal use of the tilde I'm aware of is to mean 'approximately' in formulae.

[viscousmemories]

Ooo... excellent idea, lisa. Just make sure to put a link to your new grammar site in our Links Directory (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/links/?), so I can refer to it whenever I want to be sure our way of writing is regarded as the official way next time I get stuck in one of these debates.

[Ensign Steve]

(I also learned that there's supposed to be a space before the first dot. Didn't know that.)

Ewww.

I didn't know that, either, and in fact, I still don't know it. I outright REJECT that convention.

If I have to go get me a special grammar-sounding domain name and make a little webpage with clipart of a shelf of books to establish my authority in rejecting this convention, I will. If I have to sign up for a basketweaving class at some community college to get a website with .edu at the end of it, I will do that, too.

Ain't nobody going to make me surround ellipses with spaces.

Ugly. Just ugly. I'm not going to do it, and no dumbassed grade school language arts stylist can make me.

I am going to send an email to the address at the bottom of that page and tell them to bite me. I'm also going to say "Neener," probably.

I'm with you, dude. I thought the only reason to put the space in front was to get MS Word to recognize it and autocorrect it, turning the 3 periods into an elipsis. Once it makes the change, I go back and delete the space. :)

[lisarea]

Any thoughts on when to use ampersand? The only time I ever use it is when I want to make a list of things fit on one line in a PowerPoint presentation. Otherwise, I always prefer to spell out "and".

It's just a typographical convention. It means 'and,' and you can use it any time you'd use the word 'and.' It's pronounced the same and all. It does look like of hiccupy in modern text, though, so most publishers wouldn't let you use it like that. It's usually just used in titles and other contexts that don't rely on flow, or that are meant to stand out.

Which is not all that insightful or anything, but I am only saying it as a segue because I want to tell the story of what it means. This may be apocryphal, but I would be willing to falsify historical documents to bolster the theory if necessary.

Supposedly, it was a scribal convention used as sort of shorthand for 'et.' The top loop being the e and the crossed-over part at the bottom representing the t. This is why you would see 'etcetera' styled as '&cetera.'

I am telling a lot of apocryphal stories today. It's like some kind of big cosmic theme day for me or something.

[viscousmemories]

Remarkably, someone else (http://diveintomark.org/archives/2002/10/04/history_of_the_tilde) once wondered about (and researched) the history of the tilde. Fascinating read, that.

[lisarea]

Remarkably, someone else (http://diveintomark.org/archives/2002/10/04/history_of_the_tilde) once wondered about (and researched) the history of the tilde. Fascinating read, that.

Meh. Tilde. She take me money and she run Venezuela.

(Sorry. Frivolous discussion boards bring out the hokey and impulsive side of me, unfortunately.)

[viscousmemories]

Meh. Tilde. She take me money and she run Venezuela.
My flower child Jr. High School choir teacher made us sing that. As well as Eleanor Rigby, The House of the Rising Sun and other goofy but wonderful songs.

(Sorry. Frivolous discussion boards bring out the hokey and impulsive side of me, unfortunately.)
/me grins, seriously.

[livius drusus]

I know the Allan Sherman version.

[squian]

Supposedly, it was a scribal convention used as sort of shorthand for 'et.' The top loop being the e and the crossed-over part at the bottom representing the t. This is why you would see 'etcetera' styled as '&cetera.'

OK, since you brought up etcetera, I sometimes work myself into punctuational deadlock considering how to end a parenthetical expression with etc. Does the abbreviation need a period when it precedes punctuation (semicolon, period, question mark, etc)?

[lisarea]

Supposedly, it was a scribal convention used as sort of shorthand for 'et.' The top loop being the e and the crossed-over part at the bottom representing the t. This is why you would see 'etcetera' styled as '&cetera.'

OK, since you brought up etcetera, I sometimes work myself into punctuational deadlock considering how to end a parenthetical expression with etc. Does the abbreviation need a period when it precedes punctuation (semicolon, period, question mark, etc)?

I do what you just did there, just because I don't like long-assed punctuation strings because they just start looking like swearing*, and I don't see how keeping the period in an abbreviation is going to introduce any real ambiquity or confusion. I guess if the abbreviation were a different word without the period, I'd include it, but I can't think of anything like that off the top of my head.

And if anyone argues about it, we'll just add it to that authoritative-looking website to lend the convention some legitimacy. I was thinking maybe a dark blue marbled banner with chiseled Times Roman headings. Can't nobody argue with that.

* Because it's Apocrypha Day, I would like to add that some wiseguy typesetter types call this convention 'saturnalia,' due I think to the proliferation of little cartoon Saturns in comic style cussing, combined with the licentiousness aspect.

[Dingfod]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this which I've asked somewhere sometime in another thread, "What about people that use "and etc."?"?



"Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera."--Yul Brenner in The King and I.

[lisarea]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this which I've asked somewhere sometime in another thread, "What about people that use "and etc."?"?

Sometimes, I say "and cetera" just to sound like a dick. Usually when I'm telling some lie or something and I want to intimidate people against challenging me.

Then I say "?"?%$!"?" to sound more violent and angry.

Just for good measure. Because "Better safe than sorry" is also a thing I say sometimes!

[squian]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this which I've asked somewhere sometime in another thread, "What about people that use "and etc."?"?
Wow! That's ending a sentence. Normally when I use 3 punctuation marks to end a sentence, it's like this, "WTF?!?"

Because it's Apocrypha Day, I would like to add that some wiseguy typesetter types call this convention 'saturnalia,' due I think to the proliferation of little cartoon Saturns in comic style cussing, combined with the licentiousness aspect.
Funny, though, that Saturnalia is also the Roman holiday co-opted by the Christians for Christmas. Then again, I do find myself swearing more at that time of year than any other. Serendipity.

[TomJoe]

I'm with you, dude. I thought the only reason to put the space in front was to get MS Word to recognize it and autocorrect it, turning the 3 periods into an elipsis.

Exactly! MicroSoft might not get a lot of things correct (don't even get me started on using MS Word for writing scientific manuscripts) but they do get the use of the ellipsis correct ... kudos to them for it too.

[copiae]

Since this has moved on to general grammar, I did have a question on the utilisation of quotation marks, both as being representative of quotes, and being representative of conversation.

It always confuses me. For instance, if we were writing of the day John ran into Amy:

"Aaaaaah!" yelled Amy, as she toppled over backwards.

John was transfixed. Looking into those deep blue-green eyes was akin to staring into an ocean.

"As nice as it is to see you, John", Amy began, "could you please get off me? I have a class to attend in minus five minutes..."

Realisation. Deep embarrasment. "Er, sorry 'bout that, here, let me help you with your books" said John, getting up rather quickly.

"No problem, just watch where you are going, kay?", replied Amy, who, relieved of the 80kg mass pinning her to the ground, also began to get up.
"Yes Boss."
"And don't use that tone with me!"
"Yes Boss."
"..."

etc. I can never figure out where to stick commas, and where I no longer need to explicitly state that John, or Amy is talking.



Also, admittedly a different kettle of fish, but in academic writings, when to use the single and double quote, and how to interface between quotes and normal sentences. (bolded):

Pearson et al. describes this as being the result of 'contextual interrelationships and precedence' (Pearson et al., 2004). However for this to be the case, all of the available data on dynamic ad hoc catchword usage must be discarded.

History is full of such statements that perhaps sound good prima facie, but upon analysis, fundamental flaws appear. William Wallace, who is famed for saying: "They may take our lives, but they will never take our freedom!", but presumably, once the life of an individual is taken...

[lisarea]

Since this has moved on to general grammar, I did have a question on the utilisation of quotation marks, both as being representative of quotes, and being representative of conversation.

I think you crazy foreigners do it differently, but in the US, the commas go inside the quotation marks at the end of quotes that don't require other punctuation, but you leave it out if there's something else there already. There's a sort of hierarchy of important punctuation marks, and it goes roughly like this: comma, period, exclamation point, question mark. The later something is on the list, the more powerful, so a question mark trumps an exclamation point, and cetera, and you leave out the lesser punctuation. Except with quotes, you replace periods with commas, to cleave them unto the sentence.

I should go look stuff up instead of pulling it out of my ass like that. It would probably sound less crazy.

So:

"Bite me!" cried Amy.

"I've always sort of wanted you to bite me, just gently, you know," Amy whispered tentatively.


etc. I can never figure out where to stick commas, and where I no longer need to explicitly state that John, or Amy is talking.

I don't know any rules about clarifying who's speaking in dialog, but I do know a lot of writers do it badly. Like when you're in the middle of a big long stretch where people are talking, and there aren't enough attributions or even obvious clues as to who's saying what, so you have to go back and do reverse math to figure it out.

I hate that.


Also, admittedly a different kettle of fish, but in academic writings, when to use the single and double quote, and how to interface between quotes and normal sentences. (bolded):

Pearson et al. describes this as being the result of 'contextual interrelationships and precedence' (Pearson et al., 2004). However for this to be the case, all of the available data on dynamic ad hoc catchword usage must be discarded.

History is full of such statements that perhaps sound good prima facie, but upon analysis, fundamental flaws appear. William Wallace, who is famed for saying: "They may take our lives, but they will never take our freedom!", but presumably, once the life of an individual is taken...

A double quote is a regular attribution quote. (Or, colloquially, a sarcasm indicator.)

A single quote is used for:


Nested quotes (Nigel said, "Delbert said, 'I'm not getting on that boat!'"
A word as a word or phrase as a phrase (The word 'plewd' describes droplike pictographs evoking images of sweat that appear around cartoon characters' heads to indicate fear, stress, or surprise.)
A nonce word or term, similar to the word as word rule (For purposes of this contract, the term 'King Butt-tard' refers to the licensee.)

[Ensign Steve]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this which I've asked somewhere sometime in another thread, "What about people that use "and etc."?"?

Wow, that is just beautiful. I might have done the single-quote inside the double-quote, but that's just me. Anywho, :bow: .



"Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera."--Yul Brenner in The King and I.

"And most imporantly, etcetera."--Homer Simpson.

[Dingfod]

So, that would make it: Does anyone have any thoughts about this which I've asked somewhere sometime in another thread, "What about people that use 'and etc.'?"?

[ceptimus]

I'd appreciate some thoughts on the other grammar discussion in the 'History Forum' thread.

Liv has been forced to rename the History and Geography Forum, "Places and their pasts" as some posters objected to "Places and their past" on the grounds that different places do not share the same past.

I'm still not convinced.

[Ensign Steve]

Warrenly, you got me perfectly. I didn't spell it out on my post, because I would have had to add either additional quotes or parentheses or something, and that would have just been gratuitous. :) I'm happy my meaning was clear, regardless.

[Ensign Steve]

Cep, nobody forced liv to do anything. And this thread is about punctuation (at least it was, once upon a time).

Anywho, I'm going to compose a response in my next post (woo-hoo post-slutting!), so don't think I have blown you off with this curt reply. Just give me a moment to compose myself. Or my post. Or whatever.

[ceptimus]

Sorry. I shouldn't have said, 'has been forced'. My bad. I think, 'has been persuaded' would have been better.

[Ensign Steve]

I asked liv to change the caption on the new History and Geography forum from "places and their past" to "places and their pasts." I am no grammar expert, so I am (or was) reluctant to try to argue why it should be changed, except to say that it was painful for me to read it the former way. Funk and Wagnal or whoever don't seem to have an opinion on the matter, and liv and cep both have no problem with it, so I suppose it is not as glaringly obvious an error to all as it is to me. I'm willing to concede (and I believe I already have in the other thread) that there is no right or wrong on this issue, but since cep really, really wants to know, I will spew forth with what I was taught and why I think it is wrong.

The problem is with agreement. The posessor is plural, but what it posesses is singular. If I say, "The students sat on their chair," my mind conjures an image of one very large chair that all the students sit upon together. But if each student has his own chair, I would say, "The students sat on their chairs." It gets even scarier when I say, "The students sat on their butt," but now I'm just being silly. But do you see where I'm coming from with this? I said I didn't have a problem with, "The shoes and their cost," as long as it was only one pair of shoes. I expect one pair of shoes (or two shoes) to share one cost. Not a problem for me. But "Places and their past" reads to me as though all places share one collective past. But they don't. Each place has its own past, so more than one place equals more than one past. "Places and their pasts." That's all. ;)

[ceptimus]

I think 'past' is a special sort of word that maybe doesn't need pluralising in this case. I don't know the fancy grammar term for such words though.

We say, 'Geography teaches us about places.' and we say, 'History teaches us about the past.' I suppose we could say, 'Geography teaches us about the place.' but that doesn't work quite as well.

[Ensign Steve]

Hmm... good point. In that vein, I'd accept "Places and the past" but once you assign that posessive is when it starts bugging me.

[Adam]

I think you crazy foreigners do it differently, but in the US, the commas go inside the quotation marks at the end of quotes that don't require other punctuation, but you leave it out if there's something else there already.

Bleh. That's one of those grammar rules by which I consciously refuse to abide. I tend to think of the material inside the quotes the same way that I would think of a string of characters inside quotes if I were writing code. The punctuation isn't part of the string, it's part of the sentence in which the string appears, and shouldn't be inside the quotes, any more than I'd put the semicolon insde the quotes if the end of a C++ statement happened to be a string expression.

I realize that I'm technically incorrect according to US grammar rules, but I don't care.

[lisarea]

I realize that I'm technically incorrect according to US grammar rules, but I don't care.

We can put an entry on the official "rulesofusage.com" website and make your rule correct.

Hey! Maybe we could make it a pay service! Like, it'd cost, say, $5 to write up an official rule and publish it on the site, with the official looking webpage template and all. Then you can just send detractors to your link!

Rules are for squares. I've always figured that if you have any rationale for breaking a rule, even if it's just aesthetic, the rule automatically loses.

(Except some, and I am in charge of deciding which ones.)

[John Carter]

And the comma thing: I also endorse using a comma on the final element in a series because of the "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God" argument. Punctuation is supposed to make the written language clearer. Leaving out the final serial comma doesn't serve that purpose. It just saves space is all.

I think the custom of leaving it out is something they taught us old people for a while in the US, but I'm pretty sure the tide has turned and most grade-school English teachers now endorse the practice. Which puts the lie to my claim that I do it because it makes sense. I'm really only doing it to look younger.

I'm older than you are, Lisarea. I was taught that using a comma on the final element in a series is optional.


Rules are for squares. I've always figured that if you have any rationale for breaking a rule, even if it's just aesthetic, the rule automatically loses.


Agreed. Especially some stupid (and incredibly unesthetic) rule about putting a space in front of an ellipsis.

Many rules on the vagaries of punctuation vary a bit depending on the style guide you choose. So why not write your own?

[lisarea]

I'm older than you are, Lisarea. I was taught that using a comma on the final element in a series is optional.

Whoa.

Crap.

So it might be making me look OLDER?

What a quandary.

OK. So how about fat? Tell me the truth: Do serial commas make my butt look big?


Many rules on the vagaries of punctuation vary a bit depending on the style guide you choose. So why not write your own?

True story: I was working at this big kind of stodgy company a long time ago, and this new guy came in who was mad because I was younger than him and he had to do my copyediting. So he started trying to flex his muscles by critiquing something I'd done, telling me I wasn't following the corporate style guide. I said no, the guide said x, not y, so he goes over my head to tell on me for not understanding the all the complex subtleties of the corporate style guide.

Only thing is I had written the style guide.

[Shake]

One thing I've picked up from here -- from one of vm's threads, IIRC -- was the use of the double dash in places where some folks use either the ellipsis or parentheses. I used to be big on both of the latter -- but now prefer the dashes, as they set things apart in a way that is not only easier to follow, but more aesthetically pleasing and reads more like you'd expect it to sound.

[Ensign Steve]

I think that double dashes are supposed to be parenthetical, not just to represent a pause. That is, you're supposed to have a pair of them wrapped around optional information. I could easily be mistaken, though.

[Crumb]

Yes they can be used that way ES, but they can also be used to split a sentence in half with second part clairifying or adding details to the first--similar to the way shake used it in his second sentence. However, spaces around the dash it not necessary.

BTW the single '-' is called a hyphen and is only used in some compound words. The double '--' is called a dash and is used as above.

[viscousmemories]

Yes they can be used that way ES, but they can also be used to split a sentence in half with second part clairifying or adding details to the first--similar to the way shake used it in his second sentence. However, spaces around the dash it not necessary.

BTW the single '-' is called a hyphen and is only used in some compound words. The double '--' is called a dash and is used as above.
Sadly, I just learned all this in December and had already forgotten. :sadnana:

Ironically I started a thread about having no life (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1301) and it turned into a discussion only people with no life would have.

[justaman]

I liked it how the english losers used to write 's's as 'f's. Fhakefpeare ufed to like poking fun at thif by placing the word 'fucks' in opportune momentf of ambiguity.

I couldn't tell you what the actual law rulef were governing this ufeage however. I'm pretty fure I'm meffing it up doing it thif way.

[Crumb]

I think the f thing was just for double s's wasn't it?

[beyelzu]

in genuine old-style printing, it is not the letter f, but a long form of the letter s (derived from handwriting styles), which looks very similar to f but does not have a complete cross-bar. It is not used at the ends of words, and in double s it is sometimes paired with a short s (which results in a compound letter like the German double-s (or `sz') symbol `ß'). It fell out of fashion with printers rather suddenly in about 1780.

from here
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutspelling/oldfashioned

[justaman]

I think the f thing was just for double s's wasn't it?
I think you're thinking of that crazy german character.

[justaman]

I've definitely seen it written "Shakefpeare" anyway. And maybe without the 'e' at the end as well. Spelling wasn't very important in those days, evidently.

[Crumb]

This was written in 1465:

"Tho my wele be-louyd son John Paston be þis delyuered in haste.

Sonne, I grete 3ow wele and lete 3ow wete þat, for as myche as 3oure broþir Clement leteth me wete þat 3e desyre feythfully my blyssyng, þat blyssyng þat I prayed 3oure fadir to gyffe 3ow þe laste day þat euer he spakke, and þe blyssyng of all seyntes vndir heven, and myn, mote come to 3ow all dayes and tymes. And thynke veryly non oþer but þat 3e haue it, and shal haue it wyth þat þat I fynde 3ow kynde and wyllyng to þe wele of 3oure fadres soule and to þe welfare of 3oure breþeren. Be my counseyle, dyspose 3oure-selfe as myche as 3e may to haue lesse to do in þe worlde, 3oure fadyr sayde, 'In lityl bysynes lyeth myche reste.' þis worlde is but a þorugh-fare and ful of woo, and whan we departe þer-fro, ri3th nou3ght bere wyth vs but oure good dedys and ylle. And þer knoweth no man how soon God woll clepe hym, and þer-for it is good for euery creature to be redy. Qhom God vysyteth, him he louyth. And as for 3oure breþeren, þei wylle I knowe certeynly laboren all þat in hem lyeth for 3ow. Oure Lorde haue 3ow in his blyssed kepyng, body and soule. Writen at Norwyche þe xxix day of Octobyr. "

:rubeyes: Ouch!

From here. (http://www.uta.edu/english/tim/courses/4301w00/modhist.html)

[Shake]

I liked it how the english losers used to write 's's as 'f's. Fhakefpeare ufed to like poking fun at thif by placing the word 'fucks' in opportune momentf of ambiguity.

I couldn't tell you what the actual law rulef were governing this ufeage however. I'm pretty fure I'm meffing it up doing it thif way.
I couldn't tell you what teh actual rules about that usage were either, but I do remember that it didn't replace every 's'. Perhaps not on the ends of words? I seem to remember seeing something like this:

"When in the courfe of human events..."

[Godless Wonder]

And wasn't it always lowercase f's for lowercase s's, done similarly to the "f" holes in a violin, which, if you look at them, look like an s that's been stretched out very tall, with a crossbar similar to how 'z' is sometimes written with a crossbar. I get the feeling that whole 'f' vs. 's' thing was maybe a typographic fashion, a bit llike writing an M like this --> ]V[etallica. (speaking of 'losers'...) That reminds me... remember the "Apple ][" -- pretty much out of fashion these days.

[ceptimus]

There are several documents by Shakespeare in existence, and he spells his name in several different ways on them. In those days spelling was not fixed - you wrote the letters to make the sounds you were thinking. Depending on the context or your mood, you might think the sound of your name slightly differently, and so naturally the spelling could vary.

Interestingly, the modern spelling of Shakespeare is one that he NEVER used himself.