Support your National and State parks this summer!

[LadyShea]

Our little overnight camping trip was a success (except for the swarming mosquitoes due to recent flooding), so hubby and I decided to make camping a regular activity. We visited two of Florida's State Park last weekend, Florida Caverns and Falling Waters.

In this economy not only is a visit to a park an economical and enjoyable vacation, it supports the overall effort to keep areas preserved for future generations, as funding may be cut.


National Park Service - Experience Your America (http://www.nps.gov)
National & State Parks (http://usparks.about.com/)

[Ensign Steve]

How did you little man enjoy it? Do you have pics? Inquiring minds and all...

:popcorn:

[LadyShea]

Yes, I took pics, but they haven't been downloaded yet. I will post the link when they're up.

He unfortunately freaked out on our afternoon nature trail hike attempt. The mosquitoes were seriously horror movie level swarming, though, and I was freaked a bit too, so I can't blame him.

He loved the campfire and cooking hot dogs, making s'mores, and telling stories. We took a night hike that was mosquito free, and though he said "I'm a little creeped out" (no idea where he got that phrase) due to the dark, he didn't whine or ask to go back. In fact he was talking to himself, and when I listened hard I realized he was saying "The Force is all around you" like Yoda.

He loved the cave tour the next day...totally dug it. He also seemed to like hiking at Falling Waters which wasn't a flooded swamp full of mutant mosquitoes. He can now identify a sinkhole as well :)

[godfry n. glad]

In order to 'enjoy' the federal and state parks in these parts, one has to reserve last year. In some places out west here, you have to reserve eight to ten years in advance, like rafting the Grand Canyon.

Our state and federal parks are suffering from being over-appreciated.

We have to tread that narrow margin between maximizing the enjoyment of citizens who 'own' them and minimizing the compaction and destruction of thousands, if not millions of tramping tourista footies through our gems of public outdoor space.

[LadyShea]

Godfry, have you ever been to Lassen (http://www.nps.gov/lavo/)? Not as well known as Yosemite or Grand Canyon, and probably one of my fave parks...and I have been to more than 1/2 of those in the Western states.

Also, there seem to be plenty of Canyon rafting tour companies, we had them in Vegas even. Where do you see 8-10 years?

[godfry n. glad]

Godfry, have you ever been to Lassen (http://www.nps.gov/lavo/)? Not as well known as Yosemite or Grand Canyon, and probably one of my fave parks...and I have been to more than 1/2 of those in the Western states.

Also, there seem to be plenty of Canyon rafting tour companies, we had them in Vegas even. Where do you see 8-10 years?

My personal physician finally got to raft the Colorado through the Grand Canyon this past spring. However, he and his family had been on the waiting list maintained by the National Parks Service to actually be allowed to do the entire trip in their own approved boats and pilots. I understand that the NPS very tightly controls the access for trips through the gorge. Yes, you can probably pay multiple thousands ($3,000-$4,000 per person is the figure I've seen, for 13 days on the river), but I have even heard overbooking horror stories about the "professional" rafting outfits.

This information was a confirmation of a set of articles read twenty years ago about "loving our national parks to death" as part of a seminar on the history of environmental thought. I'll see if I can dredge up the article.

[LadyShea]

My personal physician finally got to raft the Colorado through the Grand Canyon this past spring. However, he and his family had been on the waiting list maintained by the National Parks Service to actually be allowed to do the entire trip in their own approved boats and pilots. Yes, you can probably pay multiple thousands ($3,000-$4,000 per person is the figure I've seen, for 13 days on the river), but I have even heard overbooking horror stories about the "professional" rafting outfits.

I was looking at 1-5 day trips in the hundreds of dollars, and some of the companies were linked from the NPS website, so I assume they are approved. I don't get two weeks vacation, or have my own boats and pilots, so that kind of scenario never occurred to me (though looking at it it appears non-commercial permits are done through a lottery system). Anyway rafting the Colorado is hardly the only worthwhile National or State park trip.

If you don't want to visit any parks then don't, or visit some of the lesser known ones, but why are you so being so snarly about it? I take it I accidentally hit on another of your pet peeves

[godfry n. glad]

Snarly?

Well...Let's see. When I was in a seminar on the history of environmental thought, we were introduced to the concept of "loving our national parks to death", complete with the figures of how many tourists are tramping through our national parks...it is growing and with that growth, the demands upon the parks themselves are becoming untenable, IF we expect to maintain the "natural areas" as natural areas. Already, Oregon state parks are hardly what I would call a "camping" experience, what with paved roads, multiple newspaper boxes at campground intersections, and blaring music and television noise from nearby "campers" in their mobile annoyance units. The national parks are coming to resemble the state parks. The problem is that TOO MANY PEOPLE WANT TO ENJOY THEM. Too many of those too many also engage in usual tourista behavior, too, like vandalism and littering (y'know...all those people who think there is plenty of unused space out there to pitch their trash out the window in to for disposal). The result is that the parks are being pushed to and beyond their limits in terms of how many visitors they can accomodate.

And...It's not just the "big names" either.

Me? I'd love to see Yosemite (and visit the nearby travesty of Mono Lake), the Grand Canyon, and the various southern Utah arid desert national parks, but Lassen doesn't hold much interest to me. In case you'd forgotten, volcanic devastation is not a particularly enthralling topic around here. I watched Mt. St. Helens erupt in 1980, up close and personal, and have been inundated with retrospectives since. Lassen would probably be a redundancy for me.

Me? Normally, I like to brag that I'm doing my bit for the environment and stay the hell out of the wilderness areas. Well, I'm going to soil that claim and go visit my favorite alpine lake, Little Strawberry Lake, in the Strawberry Mountain Wilderness Area, for a day hike. Then, we'll swing by Wallowa Lake, in the Wallowa Mountains at the entrance to the Eagle Cap Wilderness Area, and gawk at the beautiful mountains from the hotel grounds....maybe even take a short mule ride.

I'm fully aware of the state and national parks. However, I don't happen to think that people need to be encouraged to use them. If the claims are to be believed, quite the opposite would be the best bet. Stay home....watch baseball...swim at the neighborhood pool...run through the sprinkler. The fewer people visiting our state and national parks, the better.

Perhaps you didn't mean 'visit' by your use of 'support'. By all means, support your National Park Service and the parks they maintain. Make a donation without visiting. The same with state parks.

[LadyShea]

The article was written 20 years ago? Has there been a follow up on how the parks are doing as a whole? When I camped this weekend, it seemed to me everyone was very respectful...as we left I noted every campsite was spotless, including ours. There were no loud TVs or anything, although there were some large rigs there. During the cave tour everyone adhered to the no touching rule and asked interesting questions.

[godfry n. glad]

You think it has slacked off since then?

ETA: Wilderness and the American Mind by Roderick Frazier Nash, Yale University Press, New Haven, 2001,

After discussing the exemplar which Grand Canyon NP is for national parks and how the increase in users, and fees associated with use, has resulted in an unwelcome ambiance within the park with regards to fee payment and enforcement, our author states on page 330,

River running on the Colorado through Grand Canyon National Park is even more in demand. The twenty-one commercial rafting companies who boat the river fill their trips a year in advance at prices ranging from $700 to $1200. Noncommercial river runners (person who prefer a do-it-yourself type of trip) faced in 1981 an eight-year wait for the chance to make a trip. The waiting list, moreover, is growing several years longer each year. Given this growth in demand, the noncommercial trip could become a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Once on the river, visitors must comply with the strictest minimum-impact camping regulations in the nation. It is mandated, for instance, that human feces be containerized and carried out of the Grand Canyon for disposal.

The description of the situation at Grand Canyon NP is continued for ten pages (329-339) in the midst of the next to final chapter, entitled The Irony of Victory which recounts much of the modern destruction thanks to the parks' success. I heartily recommend the book for a perspective on the whole outlook of American culture on wilderness.

[Qingdai]

The fee imposed by most parks may have cut down on the number of hikers and campers.

http://www.discovernw.org/store_annual-northwest-forest-pass-national-forests-in-washington-and-oregon-only_09942.html

$30, $80 and $100 dollar fees, or $5 per day pass, plus per member fees, back country fees per day are not only a confusing thing to figure out (if I hike really fast, can I save money?), but for some also a barrier for those of us who were considering going out.
Then the state parks have separate fees.

[wildernesse]

I think you have to realize that things are different in different parts of the country, and even in different areas of the parks. Most of the time that I am in a state park in the Southeast, I do not see more than 5 other people non-staff people all day. Most of the time, the campgrounds are not full. There are some parks that are full--in Raleigh, there is a state park right beside the airport and it is heavily used.

But drive about 30 minutes away, and the parks will be pretty much empty, even on a nice sunny day. Well, the picnic area will be full and the playground, but hit a trail that is more than a mile long and you'll probably see 4 people.

I lived in a state park in Georgia one summer, and the campground was never full (although the pool was, because it was probably the only public pool in town). No hikers. A couple of times, a group of children would be bussed out to climb the largest of the mounds. I don't recall any people using the canoes or paddle boats on the lake besides us. A handful of people regularly fished the creek. That was it.

Even national parks have their less traveled parts. I can recall being part of the tourist throng on the south rim of the Grand Canyon during one vacation. Then we went to the north rim and were the only ones stirring besides the staff--it was a lovely experience.

One other thing to note is that national parks are not strictly wilderness areas, although they may contain some designated wilderness. Not by law or any other measure--that isn't really their full purpose. We do have designated wilderness areas with much stricter requirements for development and use, some of which may fall within a national park's boundaries.

[LadyShea]

You think it has slacked off since then?

I don't think anything, I am not arguing I am asking a question.

I know that many parks are working constantly to preserve and/or restore. Yosemite has many programs underway. Falling Waters, one of the parks I visited last weekend, does controlled burns every 2-3 years to maintain the natural cycles needed for a healthy pine forest in this region.

What I want to know is what effect these efforts are having.

I will read the book you recommended.

[LadyShea]

The fee imposed by most parks may have cut down on the number of hikers and campers.

Annual Northwest Forest Pass (National Forests in Washington and Oregon ONLY): Discover Your Northwest Online Store (http://www.discovernw.org/store_annual-northwest-forest-pass-national-forests-in-washington-and-oregon-only_09942.html)

$30, $80 and $100 dollar fees, or $5 per day pass, plus per member fees, back country fees per day are not only a confusing thing to figure out (if I hike really fast, can I save money?), but for some also a barrier for those of us who were considering going out.
Then the state parks have separate fees.

We pay 5.00/day during season to go to Gulf State Park's beach, or 20.00 for an annual pass for the city beach (but they only charge during season as well) and 1.00 per person to use the Gulf State Park lake/picnic area.

Fees help run the parks and fund preservation efforts and may also keep out those less respectful of the areas, and more likely to litter etc.

We do the coastal clean up every year, and there was little to do at the state park, it was very clean, most of the volunteers left to go where we were needed more...namely the city beach and areas around the condos. Either the small park staff does an amazing job of cleaning throughout the year, or the visitors are more respectful in general.

[Adam]

...mobile annoyance units.

:lol:

[godfry n. glad]

One other thing to note is that national parks are not strictly wilderness areas, although they may contain some designated wilderness. Not by law or any other measure--that isn't really their full purpose. We do have designated wilderness areas with much stricter requirements for development and use, some of which may fall within a national park's boundaries.

To be facetious, it must be nice to have all those underutilized campgrounds; it's probably because all the southerners are off using the national parks in the west.

Most wilderness areas I know of lie outside of National Park boundaries. You are right that the National Park designation means something very, very different from the Wilderness designation (nearby, we have National: Scenic Area, Recreational Area, Game Refuge, Wildlife Refuge, Forests, and Monuments designations...each with their own set of usage limits and divided amongst variant federal administrative bureaus). Some wags have even suggested that national parks are the sacrificial lands to keep the hordes away from other areas. If so, it seems to have worked in the breach of the past 20 years or so.

The question I lobbed off to LS I already knew some of the answer...It fluctuates from year to year. In one period I researched, when the Asian economies were deflated, the numbers of tourists attending national parks in the US dropped 1.5% overall. This reduction was largely ascribed to the virtual disappearance of Asian tour groups. During oil price spirals, use of national parks drops precipitously amongst domestic users. However, overall, the usage of all parks, national and state, continues to increase...often in the face of the inability to supply additional park space or maintain what already exists. The Grand Canyon is merely an exemplar of a larger problem. Indeed, in many cases, it is hardly equivalent because of all the public attention, public relations, and public largess, it receives.

Plus...IIRC, the National Park Service did not fare well during the Bushtinian Dark Ages.

[LadyShea]

To be facetious, it must be nice to have all those underutilized campgrounds; it's probably because all the southerners are off using the national parks in the west.

We seem to have a lot of wilderness area, both public and private, that are not designated as parks...many people never visit the parks because they can fish, camp, hunt, etc. in so many other places. Very outdoorsy bunch of people on the whole.

[wildernesse]

One other thing to note is that national parks are not strictly wilderness areas, although they may contain some designated wilderness. Not by law or any other measure--that isn't really their full purpose. We do have designated wilderness areas with much stricter requirements for development and use, some of which may fall within a national park's boundaries.

To be facetious, it must be nice to have all those underutilized campgrounds; it's probably because all the southerners are off using the national parks in the west.



Or the ones in the Southeast--like the Great Smokies or Shenandoah! Both of which face some of the same kinds of overuse that western parks face. Overuse is a serious problem for public lands, but I think that education about being a responsible park visitor is probably more helpful than keeping people away (although there is definitely some value in that, as well). I think people need to visit and be exposed to parks so they will want to FUND them and care for them.

In any event, one thing that is interesting for me to think about is that growing up we rarely went to parks as our primary recreational experience--if we wanted to play in the woods or a lake or a stream or a field, we went out our back door on to our family's land. Same for hunting, fishing, camping. That was much more my community's experience than using publicly owned land for recreation. I think that may be why some southern parks are less used, plus it is hot and soggy here in the summer, especially in a dang tent. As more people lose their agricultural roots, I think park use in the SEUS will increase. Or we will just continue to blobify and be unable to live without a/c.

[LadyShea]

We visited another state park this month, Rickwood Caverns (http://www.alapark.com/RickwoodCaverns/). We took my mom and my 11 yo niece this time. There were a total of three campsites being utilized, and the pool was closed for the season, and one hiking trail is closed due to Pine Beetle killed fallen trees...we had the park to ourselves! The ranger that checked us in was friendly and knowledgeable and answered all of Kiddo's questions.

The pool is filled from the water in the cave, which is 40 degrees, so I would haven't swum anyway.

We did a nice 1.5 mile hike the first day and saw some interesting rock formations, and plants. It was very moist from recent rains and there were many kinds of mushrooms, one was bright red. We set up camp and had a nice evening around the fire. Two queen size air mattresses fit side by side in the tent, and we each had enough space to sleep comfortably. An incredibly loud owl woke me up about 3 am, but that was cool.

The cave is really interesting, with an amazingly clear 100s of feet deep pool, but since it's a small and underfunded park, there is no elevator. There is a shaft for one, built when it was privately owned, but the state abandoned that project upon purchase of the park. We had to climb 111 steep steps to get out of there! Also, the tour guide was pretty much silent unless asked direct questions, maybe because it was off season and all the volunteers had gone home. Oh one interesting thing, the cave was designated a fallout shelter, and was used for food storage, but they never rotated it nor bothered to remove it, so it's still got I don't remember how many tons of 50 year old food down there.

Overall a good weekend, and the whole thing cost 100.00 or so for 5 of us.

Next trip, Oak Mountain (http://www.alapark.com/OakMountain/), mostly because...hey mountains in Al but also they have a wildlife refuge and rehab center.

[Qingdai]

We're going to stay in a yurt at Beachside.
Oregon State Parks and Recreation: Rates (http://www.oregonstateparks.org/park_122.php)

Here's the yurt plan
http://www.oregon.gov/OPRD/PARKS/rustic.shtml#RUSTIC_YURTS

[LadyShea]

OMG fun, Qing! When are you going?

[Crumb]

Yurts are fun, Q. :yup: Enjoy the coast!

[Qingdai]

I'm going Sunday. So have fun without me.

You've stayed in a yurt, Crumb?
Should I bring sleeping bags or sheets and blankets?

[The Lone Ranger]

Next trip, Oak Mountain (http://www.alapark.com/OakMountain/), mostly because...hey mountains in Al but alos they have a wildlife refuge and rehab center.

If you like Oak Mountain, you may enjoy DeSoto State Park (http://www.alapark.com/DeSotoResort/) as well. I went there years ago while attending a biological conference, and really enjoyed it. The scenery is magnificent, and there are plenty of hiking trails, magnificent waterfalls, and so forth. Not to mention lots of wonderful flora and fauna that you won't find in most of the other regions of the state.



Imagine releasing 4 professional field biologists into a state park -- we were eagerly examining every plant and fungus, turning over every log in search of snakes and salamanders, wading into every pool and stream in search of aquatic critters, you name it.


At one point, a man and his son approached us. "Are you by any chance biologists?" he asked. Chris and I were examining the needles of a pine and noting that it was one of the finest examples of Pinus palustris that we'd ever seen, and Chris was practically ecstatic when he found a specimen of Gelsemium sempervirens growing nearby. John was knee-deep in a stream, looking for stonefly larvae, and Mike was examining a specimen of Sedum. I guess we looked like biologists.

The man told us that he'd seen the van parked nearby, which had "University of Alabama, Department of Biology" printed on its side, and figured that we must be biologists. We, of course, were eager to offer any aid we could.

He told us that he and his son had just seen a "salamander" with a black-and-white striped body and a blue tail, and he wondered if we might be able to tell him what it was. Naturally, we were thrilled to be of service, and we immediately leapt into action. We were practically falling over ourselves as we excitedly pointed out that it hadn't been a salamander or indeed, any kind of amphibian, but a reptile. It had certainly been a skink that they'd seen (a kind of lizard, you understand; you can tell skinks from the local Fence Lizards (genus Sceloporus) by their smooth, often shiny scales), probably Eumeces fasciatus (http://hr-rna.com/RNA/images/Reptiles%20and%20Amphibs/Five%20lined%20skink%20rez.jpg).

We demanded to know exactly where they'd seen the skink in the hopes that one of us could find and catch it, in order that we might use it to illustrate to them the key differences between lizards and salamanders. We were all set to give them an impromptu lecture on reptile and salamander life histories, evolution, and identification, and were debating with ourselves over how to best organize our lecture when the guy said "Okay ... thanks a lot" and he and his son began to back away.

I think we scared them.



Cheers,

Michael

[LadyShea]

We have those skinks here :)

DeSoto is on my list as well. lol@scary biologists

[Crumb]

You've stayed in a yurt, Crumb?
Should I bring sleeping bags or sheets and blankets?
We did sleeping bags.

There are pics in the gallery of our first yurt trip. Freethought Forum (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/gallery/browseimages.php?c=91&userid=) There are interior and exterior yurt shots. Those are at Oregon state parks so they should be about the same. They have heat and light. The beds are like vinyl covered mattresses. You could use sheets, but it might be better to have something thicker between you and the mattress if it is chilly.

[BDS]

I believe throat singing around the campfire is mandatory.

[Qingdai]

I'm bringing my little mongol pony!
Oh wait, that's our car.

[LadyShea]

Least Visited National Parks (http://green.yahoo.com/blog/daily_green_news/128/the-10-least-visited-u-s-national-parks.html)

[Qingdai]

I'm not surprised that so many places are in Alaska. It's pretty and pretty far away.

The North Cascades looks do-able for us. I like the boat trip that takes you to a place Martha Stewart featured.

My friend who lives in Florida likes to go to Dry Tortugas.

[viscousmemories]

Ken Burns was just on The Colbert Report last night pimping his documentary The National Parks: America's Best Idea. That makes twice in 24 hours I've heard the phrase "loving our national parks to death". I don't personally see much point in having them if humans can't enjoy them.

[LadyShea]

I just made reservations for visiting the most visited national park for Kiddo's birthday.

That makes twice in 24 hours I've heard the phrase "loving our national parks to death". I don't personally see much point in having them if humans can't enjoy them.

Part of the experience, for me, is learning about the conservation and protection in any park. They can't do much without funds and few people will donate without visiting. I think we need to start from that.

Here's the website about that documentary The National Parks: America's Best Idea: | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/nationalparks/) and it starts on PBS this Sunday

[Crumb]

I don't personally see much point in having them if humans can't enjoy them.
Seriously? :sadcheer: What about preserving spaces for plants and other animals? Poor bastards can't get away from us.

[viscousmemories]

I don't know, it just seems like it would be a little hypocritical for me to worry about preserving a happy place for some plants and animals while making books and shoes and filling my stomach with others. I guess I just don't care that much.

[Crumb]

Interesting. Because I would say that the very fact that we exploit natural resources on such an enormous scale, makes us obligated to leave some natural spaces untouched. It is too bad we don't leave more of the natural world alone.

[Qingdai]

I agree with Crumb. We need wild spaces to keep genetic diversity, fresh air, clean water and innumerable things that aren't readily apparent to us.

I wish that park funding wasn't being shoved into being mainly user fees. I preferred it when they had a budget from the parts that they allow (which they allow anyway) to be mined, logged and traded, instead of that money going into the general fund.

[LadyShea]

The first episode of the documentary was excellent! Excellent I tell ya!

I now want to learn everything I can about John Muir, either I learned about him and I forgot, or I heard about him and the person telling me was not properly enthusiastic about how fascinating he was.

[LadyShea]

National Park Week | National Park Foundation (http://www.nationalparks.org/explore/?fa=national-park-week)

[The Lone Ranger]

Edward Abbey argued that automobiles should be banned from the national parks. I'm often inclined to agree.

More specifically, he argued that vehicular access to the national parks should be limited to service vehicles and shuttle buses for those who cannot or will not get to the sights on foot. (Actually, I'd allow bicycles on the park roads, myself.)

Since congestion is a very serious problem in some of the parks (I've seen long lines of traffic in Acadia National Park, for instance, and especially in Great Smoky Mountains National Park), and the traffic has been shown to be detrimental to wildlife, this seems like an idea well worth considering, if you ask me.


And I'll be absolutely blunt: I care a lot more about the comfort and well-being of the plants and wild animals that inhabit the parks than I do about the comfort and convenience of the human visitors, myself included.


Cheers,

Michael

[wildernesse]

We had a great visit to a state park last weekend, Brazos Bend (http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/brazos_bend/), and bought a park pass. It was $60 and it covers everyone in a non-commercial vehicle with you. The park itself was very nice and full of alligators and birds--we are actually going back next week.

I am really excited about visiting more state parks here in Texas.

[LadyShea]

Demi was telling me about a great NP in Texas...Big Bend.

I want to try to go to Gulf Islands National Seashore sometime during NP Week...before it gets too hot and buggy.

[Shake]

You think it has slacked off since then?

I don't think anything, I am not arguing I am asking a question.

I know that many parks are working constantly to preserve and/or restore. Yosemite has many programs underway. Falling Waters, one of the parks I visited last weekend, does controlled burns every 2-3 years to maintain the natural cycles needed for a healthy pine forest in this region.

What I want to know is what effect these efforts are having.

I will read the book you recommended.

godfry's original link may have been old, but the story hasn't changed a lot. I recall a news piece on the national news talking about how having too many visitors was having negative effects on some of the parks. I don't have time right now to go dig anything else up on it, but will try to find something later for you.

[wildernesse]

Demi was telling me about a great NP in Texas...Big Bend.

I want to try to go to Gulf Islands National Seashore sometime during NP Week...before it gets too hot and buggy.

We are definitely going to Big Bend and Guadalupe Mountains, if it is at all possible, while we live here. And go paddling in the Big Thicket. I also want to visit the canyon state parks in the panhandle.

[LadyShea]

godfry's original link may have been old, but the story hasn't changed a lot. I recall a news piece on the national news talking about how having too many visitors was having negative effects on some of the parks. I don't have time right now to go dig anything else up on it, but will try to find something later for you.


Well, without the parks, that land would look like the lands around them....developed, cleared for logging, planting, or grazing, strip mined, filled in wetlands, etc.

You have to look at the conditions at the time each park was established as well as today. They were clear cutting hundreds of acres a week in the Great Smoky Mnts, right up to the day the park was established. The Everglades? Forget it...would have been filled in by now. Gulf Islands NS and Gulf State Park? High Rise Condos stretching for miles and probably the complete loss of Loggerhead Sea Turtles. Western canyons? Dammed to the last one.

The public is not likely to monetarily support millions of acres of pure conservation area that they can't visit. The parks I have been to (dozens) were in good shape and well tended. So it seems to me the Parks system has achieved a pretty good balance of conservation and human recreation. Is it perfect? No, but vastly better than what would have been otherwise.

[The Lone Ranger]

Indeed. The National Parks may not be perfect, but they're definitely a darned sight better than the alternative. Personally, I would shift the balance between conservation of wildlife and vistas versus human comfort and ease more toward the conservation side. As such, I would severely restrict vehicular access to the parks, if I had my way.

Smog is a serious problem in Yosemite. Ozone levels in Great Smoky Mountains are sometimes so high that they have to issue "ozone alerts" and warn people not to engage in strenuous activities (ozone levels in GSMNP are often higher than is legally permissible in cities). In fairness, this isn't just due to vehicles in the parks -- some of it comes from nearby cities.


In any event, many of these irreplaceable natural areas would have long-since been all but destroyed had they not been protected as parks.


Cheers,

Michael

[wildernesse]

Some state parks are primarily for recreation. Some state parks are not available for people to drop in, you have to make reservations to come on a group tour. It's the same for some national parks--when we were in Denali, we drove out to the furthest point private cars were allowed, but if you want to go further in a vehicle you have to be on a park shuttle bus.

Besides state and national parks, there are also national forests, wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, national monuments, all which fall along different points on the balance between recreation, conservation, and preservation. Some areas, such as wildlife refuges and wilderness areas fall pretty far along on the preservation side of things. Legislation creating wilderness areas actually defines them as places where "man himself is a visitor who does not remain."

If you have a chance and these kinds of lands exist near you, I would encourage you to visit them as well. They can be great places to become more aware of your surroundings, and you often can learn how your everyday activities affect the environment so that when you go home you might change your behavior.

I should probably search this thread before I post this, because I might have said this before. But I am lazy.

[LadyShea]

Good points Wildy!

We have hiked in the Bon Secour National Wildlife Refuge (http://www.fws.gov/bonsecour/). There are no roads inside, you have to park then hike. There's no campground. There aren't even bathrooms. It's pretty pristine.

[Ensign Steve]

There aren't even bathrooms. It's pretty pristine.

Does not compute.

[LadyShea]

Pristine wilderness, you! :shakepoo:

[The Lone Ranger]

Yup. There are some really wonderful wilderness areas out there that are well worth exploring. You might be surprised; there are officially-designated wilderness areas surprisingly close to some of the country's major cities.


On the other hand, one of the more annoying things in life is how often, when it appears that Congress may be considering designating some area as a protected wilderness (thus putting it off-limits to most forms of "development"), timber companies will quickly run a road into it, to prevent that from happening.

Urgh.

[wildernesse]

Here's something that is different from parks back east. I've been trying to find a campsite this week for the weekend, with no luck! There's only been a few times that I've ever had reservations for camping, most of the time we just show up and there are plenty of sites available.

Apparently, I will need to plan ahead more if we want to stay the night.

[LadyShea]

We will be hiking at Little River Canyon National Preserve (http://www.nps.gov/liri/) on Saturday, camping at the adjacent DeSoto State Park (http://www.alapark.com/desotoresort/) (where TLR and his scary group of biologists terrified a man and son!), and probably stopping for the tour at Cathedral Caverns (http://www.alapark.com/CathedralCaverns/) on our way out.

Hoping to find a Kral's Water Plantain to photograph (http://helplittleriver.com/About_Little_River_Endangered.htm)

[LadyShea]

I am so frickin' tired, but we had a great trip. It's dry season plus they have had a drought up there, so Little River Falls was a trickle and we got to walk around the rocks that are usually underwater, and got to hike up a dry, boulder-strewn riverbed after a scramble straight down into the riverbed. I flat out refused, verbally, to put Kiddo down that gully, knowing that I would do exactly that in the end (had to try). And I did, and it turned out great. Yay hubby for insisting.

Desoto Falls dam was shut down, so we also got to walk across where the falls usually run, and it makes for interesting and alien landscapes.

Cathedral Caverns is the most manhandled cave I have ever been in, but impressive anyway.

[LadyShea]

We will be camping for 3-4 nights in the Julian Price Memorial Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Price_Memorial_Park), which is part of the Blue Ridge National Parkway (http://www.nps.gov/blri/index.htm)in July. It is close to Boone, where Kiddo's new baby bro lives, so we will be meeting him (and visiting with his parents of course), and other Kiddo family members will travel from Raleigh to visit. They have a Junior Ranger (http://www.nps.gov/blri/forkids/junior-ranger-program.htm) program so we will help Kiddo get his badge. Ymir's Blood, or anyone else, let me know any do not misses on the Parkway.

Past camping has always been a single night, so I need campfire cooking recipes! A foil hobo-stew is already on the menu. I have cast iron stuff to cook with, so hit me!

[wildernesse]

There's always hot dogs (and burgers, too, if you have a grill at the campsite), which have the added bonus of not needing much in the way of prep and cleanup. My cousin and I did some chicken breasts with peppers and onions in foil packets, along with charred corn on the cob, which was yum. And eggs and pancakes.

I think the most important part of camp-out cooking for me, is to do most of the prep at home. That way you don't have too much chopping or mixing to do out with the buggies or away from easy access to a sink where you can wash your hands to avoid cross-contamination.

----

Our annual park pass has expired, but we definitely got our money's worth from it this year. We visited several state parks more than once, even though we did not get as far as I had hoped. The Bee meant that our spring vacay to Big Bend/Guadalupe Mountains NPs was a no-go, but we are spending this weekend at a national seashore and some state parks (where we will buy another park pass because it really was very nice to have).

We are currently all tired out from spending the morning hopping around in the waves and swimming against the current at Padre Island. It is pretty nice, even though we cannot drive out to the wilder parts since we do not have a 4WD vehicle. I wish we were here when they were doing the baby sea turtle release, but we are too early in the year for that.

[LadyShea]

I just didn't want to do hot dogs for a week, and that's so far been our camping dinner.

For some reason I associate pita sandwiches with camping. Pita bread doesn't get squished as easily I guess is why my mom chose it. Maybe I'll make up some seasoned chicken and do that too.

[Ensign Steve]

Eggs and bacon! For breakfast and dinner! :hungry:

[The Lone Ranger]

We will be camping for 3-4 nights in the Julian Price Memorial Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Price_Memorial_Park), which is part of the Blue Ridge National Parkway (http://www.nps.gov/blri/index.htm)in July. It is close to Boone, where Kiddo's new baby bro lives, so we will be meeting him (and visiting with his parents of course), and other Kiddo family members will travel from Raleigh to visit. They have a Junior Ranger (http://www.nps.gov/blri/forkids/junior-ranger-program.htm) program so we will help Kiddo get his badge. Ymir's Blood, or anyone else, let me know any do not misses on the Parkway.

Past camping has always been a single night, so I need campfire cooking recipes! A foil hobo-stew is already on the menu. I have cast iron stuff to cook with, so hit me!

Hey, I'll be doing the Blue Ridge Parkway in July myself. The BRP is one of my very favorite places/things ever, and I've driven every single mile of it multiple times.

If you're going to Julian Price and the Boone area, you should definitely visit Linville Falls and the Linville Gorge, in my opinion. The Linville Gorge is one of the largest wilderness areas in the eastern U.S.

If you're willing to go a bit off the Parkway and you like caves, Linville Caverns is worth visiting too. Crabtree Falls is nearby and is definitely worth a visit, I think, though there's less to see and do there than at Linville Falls. Grandfather Mountain is nearby as well, and probably worth a visit. (It's privately owned and you have to pay to go up onto the mountain itself, but there are lots of hiking trails and neat rock formations, and the views from atop the mountain are wonderful. There's also a gift shop, some very nice displays about the local flora, fauna and geology, and a sort of mini zoo, if you're into that sort of stuff.

An overlook that's easy to miss is in the area: Chestoa View Overlook. I highly recommend it. From the parking area, you can take a short and easy walk down a trail and be rewarded by some really magnificent views of the surrounding mountains, including Grandfather.

Be sure to stop at Looking Glass Rock Overview as well. That's one of the best (and most unique) views offered by the Parkway. (Actually, LGR is visible from at least three different overlooks.) It's a bit of a detour, but if you don't mind getting off the Parkway, it's worth detouring to see Looking Glass Falls; it's a large and very beautiful waterfall a few miles off the Parkway. (Alas, there tend to be a lot of tourists cluttering up the view, though.)

If you're going further North along the Parkway, into southern Virginia, then Mabry Mill is very-much worth a visit. It can be overrun with visitors though, especially on weekends. (It's said to be the single most-photographed feature on the Parkway.)

Stone Mountain State Park abuts Parkway land in North Carolina, and the park is well worth visiting, in my opinion. I've spent many a happy day wandering the hiking trails of Stone Mountain S.P. Just don't be fooled by the drive to the park. To get to the park, you drive through land that has been heavily lumbered, and you'll soon start to think that there can't possibly be anything worth seeing out there, but then you get to the park and it's absolutely beautiful, with lots of lovely and undisturbed forestland, spectacular geological features, lots of hiking trails (some of them quite challenging on a hot Summer's day), clear mountain streams, waterfalls, etc.


Cheers,

Michael

[LadyShea]

We did Grandfather Mountain on a previous visit with a bunch of family...I guess that's where Boone folks take visitors ;)

How long will you be in the area.

[godfry n. glad]

Yo ho!

We booked AmTrak to East Glacier, a three night stay at the Glacier Park Lodge, with touring car tours including Going to the Sun and Waterton Peace Park. Then, it's rent a car and drive western Montana to Yellowstone and back for ten days.

Two national parks. That's the plan, at least.

[LadyShea]

Wow, big cool ones too Godfry. I demand pictures!

[The Lone Ranger]

A nice place to stop on a hot Summer's day is the orchard at Altapass (http://www.altapassorchard.com/). They often have live folk music shows, which is nice, and hayrides for the kids. In the Fall, it's a wonderful place to go for fresh apples in an astonishing array of different varieties. Some of the earlier-ripening varieties may be available by July, though.

They also sell jams, jellies, etc. I quite like their muskadine cider. They also make and sell excellent fudge. (My favorite is their peanut butter fudge.) They also have excellent hand-dipped ice cream, which is really good on a hot Summer's day.

If you make it as far north as Mabry Mill, they sell cherry cider, which is made at a nearby orchard. I love that cherry cider, and I always make a point of buying several gallons to take home with me whenever I get down that way.



One fine Autumn day, I went to the orchard at Altapass and bought some apples. Afterward, I went to Graveyard Fields. As I was hiking along a trail, a stunning young woman came jogging down the trail. The thought flashed through my mind, "My goodness, it's Atalanta!" and I briefly regretted not having bought any Golden Delicious apples.

[LadyShea]

Well, I had planned the orchard at Altapass as the "whole fam damily day" (all of Kiddo's bio relatives converging on Thursday) but hubby was all "it's not even apple season, and boring". So, we are going white water rafting that day instead. I've never been! It's a rafting trip designed for first timers and families with little kids, so no big rapids, but should be fun

[freemonkey]

We've been enjoying our state & national parks a little the last week or so. Here's a Photobucket album (http://s1136.photobucket.com/albums/n490/RandomIdea/Summer%202011/?albumview=slideshow) of some of the pics I took. Most were from Hurricane Ridge in Olympic National Park.

We may or may not end up at the Columbia Gorge tomorrow, depends on weather, dog and how early we get up.

[LadyShea]

Aight, trip report

1. The campground at Julian Price Park is lovely. We got a waterfront site and it was 20 steps to Price Lake from our tent. No showers, but potable water and flush toilets as well as full hook up sites for those with RVs

2. The Watauga River is fucking cold. 48 degrees. And we went rafting in it. And they encouraged water fights between the rafts. 48 fucking degrees. Thank goodness it was like 95 out, or I would have hurt someone. Rafting is fun and we had a blast, but next time I hope to find warmer waters

3. TLR is awesome. He joined us on a hike and we learned so much, and he is just a cool, generous guy.

4. Tweetsie Railroad is a big pile of Velveeta with Cheddar topping. WTF is with the Wild West theme? It was like being in a 1958 Disney version of Tombstone. Steam locomotives are cool, we don't need to watch Gunsmoke while riding one.

[godfry n. glad]

Wow, big cool ones too Godfry. I demand pictures!


Woohoo...Locked in. East Glacier, here we come! 2nd week of September, after all the kiddies have returned to the public schools.

We've rented the car for the Yellowstone gambit, too.

Anybody know any "you just can't miss this" locales in the great loop around western Montana?

[godfry n. glad]

Yazzow, free....

them am gorgeouslous pix of the great temperate rainforest country in its wholeness.

Beauteous.

Stunning, even.

[The Lone Ranger]

One observation I have: it's really nice when people turn out to be just as wonderful in person as they seem to be online. LadyShea and her family are good folks.

The first thing she did on meeting me was to give me a big hug. Now I'm not a "hugger" by nature, but you know what? It was rather nice.

She and Hubby and Kiddo were all really wonderful people, and I'm very glad I was able to make their acquaintance. LadyShea is also an attentive host, I note, who evidently pays careful attention to her visitors and takes pains to make sure they're feeling comfortable and welcome.




Tweetsie Railroad is a big pile of Velveeta with Cheddar topping. WTF is with the Wild West theme? It was like being in a 1958 Disney version of Tombstone. Steam locomotives are cool, we don't need to watch Gunsmoke while riding one.
Oh, dang. I wish I'd known you were planning a trip to Tweetsie; I'd have warned you. It's really just a big, tacky tourist trap, if you ask me. All the locals avoid it like the plague, in my experience.

I remember that, when I was a kid, the host of one of the local kids' programs worked at Tweetsie. He'd frequently make on-air suggestions that we should bug our parents to take us to his "Wild West Show" as often as possible. But even as a kid, I thought Tweetsie RR was just tacky and a waste of time.


Cheers,

Michael

[LadyShea]

Kiddo's grandmother insisted on taking him to Tweetsie, so we all went. It was fun for him, and for her I suppose, but I have driven too much of Route 66 to be impressed by roadside attractions

[godfry n. glad]

Wow, big cool ones too Godfry. I demand pictures!


Woohoo...Locked in. East Glacier, here we come! 2nd week of September, after all the kiddies have returned to the public schools.

We've rented the car for the Yellowstone gambit, too.

Anybody know any "you just can't miss this" locales in the great loop around western Montana?


SO just booked us into locations like Mammoth Cabins, Yellowstone Lake Lodge, Old Faithful Cabins...a different location in the park each night with two in the big hotel on the lake. Yellowstone is booked in.

[LadyShea]

Jealous!

[godfry n. glad]

Okay...We left Yellowstone this morning through Mammoth Hot Springs and Gardiner, Montana. We've been beating feet northbound on US 89 through Livingston and Great Falls to meet our westbound train in East Glacier tomorrow night.

We made such good time southbound out of Glacier Park, after passing westbound along the Going to the Sun Road (we'd done it days prior going eastbound on one of the famous red 'Jammer' buses), that we were a couple days ahead of our schedule, so instead of entering the park from the north, we skirted the western edge through West Yellowstone and western Idaho to get to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, tour through Grand Teton National Park and enter Yellowstone from the south...to arrive first at Old Faithful Lodge, where we had a cabin.

I'm returning home with about 2G of pix on digital cards. We didn't see any mountain goats, grizzly bears, or moose, but we had great close-up sightings of pronghorn antelope, black bear, elk, bighorn sheep, and a whole collection of smaller wildlife of the Rocky Mountain region. Pix when I can get them processed and posted. More details when I don't have to work on Swimmer's treacherous laptop.

[Vivisectus]

That sounds like an marvelous time - it must be awesome to have access to so much wilderness and wildlife!

[LadyShea]

Oh wow godfrey, have you had an awesome time?

[LadyShea]

And the winner for Spring Break Destination is......Everglades National Park!

Suggestions and reviews welcome!

[livius drusus]

godfry's report on 3 National Parks, 1 Bison Reserve and St. Mary watching over a big toxic hole in Montana has been moved to a thread of its own (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26132).

[wildernesse]

LS, are you driving? You might want to stop by one/some of Florida's many state parks with springs and/or manatees. We had a lot of fun snorkeling in some of those parks one year, although we had wetsuits (that we rented). It was in the 50's when we went, so not typical swimming weather, but the upside was that we had the parks to ourselves and with the wetsuits we were perfectly warm in and out of the water. Even if you didn't swim, most have rental boats of some sort and the water is clear all the way to the bottom in many of these parks.

[LadyShea]

We are driving, and are planning to stop at Payne's Prairie state park to view the feral Cracker Horses.

We have considered Manatee spring trips, ever since we got SCUBA certified and geared up...but then Kiddo came along and he's not much of a snorkeler yet. We might wait on that another year or so.

[LadyShea]

I love my Hubby, but goddamn he throws wrenches at my travel planning gears a lot. Payne's Prairie is out.

Now, we are taking a grand tour of Florida all the way to fucking Key Largo. So far I have two state park campgrounds as destinations. Manatee Springs SP, and John something on Key Largo

So, I need short (2 hours or so), simple things to do to break up the driving day in the Apalachicola area then again in the Tampa or Sarasotaish area

[godfry n. glad]

uh-oh

Do I detect a basic differentiation of travel style betwixt spousal units?

[LadyShea]

LOL, good question. I had to think on it a minute. We've been traveling together successfully for over 20 years, and our travel style is very compatible when we are actually traveling.

The disagreements are all in the pre-travel stages, especially now with Kiddo in the mix. And then almost always in the destination/activities phase. Once we know where all we are going and the must-do activities, he leaves me alone to do my stuff.

The problem occurs when I ask for input and get an "I don't care" at first, but he really does care and really does have input, but not at that precise moment. I don't hear about what he thinks until I have already started my project folder and maps and spreadsheets!

[LadyShea]

FYI, Everglades airboat tour companies don't post their prices on their websites.

[godfry n. glad]

My fellow travelers have been of distinctively variant style from mine. I like to cover a lot of ground and go as many places as I can, taking in as many 'roadside attractions' as we can fit in along the way. My wife and now my domestic partner were/are both of the 'let's go someplace and relax' a la 'sit around at the beach and watch the surf'.

[godfry n. glad]

FYI, Everglades airboat tour companies don't post their prices on their websites.

I'll bet I know why.

[PopeyesPappy]

We did the Yellowstone thing last June. It was my parent’s 50th anniversary trip, and my first time to the park since 1970. We spent 9 days in Yellowstone and still didn’t get to see a lot of stuff. The Grand Tetons are really nice too.

This is probably my favorite picture of the trip.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f158/popeyespappy/Yellowstone%202011/Yellowstone2011GrizzlyBearandCubs2.jpg

Here is a slideshow of some of my other favorites pictures of the trip.

Yellowstone 2011 pictures (http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f158/popeyespappy/Yellowstone%202011/?albumview=slideshow)

[The Lone Ranger]

I love my Hubby, but goddamn he throws wrenches at my travel planning gears a lot. Payne's Prairie is out.

Now, we are taking a grand tour of Florida all the way to fucking Key Largo. So far I have two state park campgrounds as destinations. Manatee Springs SP, and John something on Key Largo

So, I need short (2 hours or so), simple things to do to break up the driving day in the Apalachicola area then again in the Tampa or Sarasotaish area

The Apalachicola National Forest (http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/florida/apalachicola/) is well-known amongst biologists -- especially botanists -- because of it harbours a number of important ecosystems that shelter a number of rare plant and animal species.

Might we worth a visit? [Beware of rattlesnakes, however. Fortunately, Eastern Diamondbacks tend to have very placid dispositions, and rarely bite even when provoked.]

[wildernesse]

My fellow travelers have been of distinctively variant style from mine. I like to cover a lot of ground and go as many places as I can, taking in as many 'roadside attractions' as we can fit in along the way. My wife and now my domestic partner were/are both of the 'let's go someplace and relax' a la 'sit around at the beach and watch the surf'.

Yes, this is often the case in our household, too. But, if I can ever get RA in the car, we have a good time out and about. He just hates the idea of it. And very occasionally, I am all for a sit and read vacation.

[LadyShea]

We have often traveled with my parents, and my dad is definitely the "sit and relax" vacationer. He went with us on two beach condo vacations, because plenty of relax time was inherent. On our more active trips, he usually offers to stay home with the pets, unless it is a super special trip for a family member (Kiddo's birthday at Disney World, for example). To be fair, he travels over 200 days a year, and has for a decade, so more time in the car on his vacay isn't appealing.

Mom went to the UK with us, to N. Carolina with us, and has gone camping with us.

So really only Dad has a different style.

[LadyShea]

This is why I :heart: vacation planning so much. While looking for a campground on a map, based on location/distance between destinations only, I chose Koreshan State Historical Site (http://www.floridastateparks.org/koreshan/default.cfm)

Guess what? It's some 19th century hollow-Earth cult's settlement that has been prserved. How fucking interesting is that? I never would have gone looking for such a site, ever. Wouldn't even know it existed, except it's on my route and conveniently located.

livius, a blog post on this would be appreciated. If you find it interesting

[Demimonde]

Speaking of weird and wonderful, I have wanted to go to Coral Castle (http://coralcastle.com/) since I was a kid and saw it on Ripley's and in other woo books. It is indeed a great accomplishment, however the guy did it. He was certainly a character. I imagine the people-watching there would be a hoot too.

[LadyShea]

Speaking of weird and wonderful, I have wanted to go to Coral Castle (http://coralcastle.com/) since I was a kid and saw it on Ripley's and in other woo books. It is indeed a great accomplishment, however the guy did it. He was certainly a character. I imagine the people-watching there would be a hoot too.

That just got added to my map. We are going right by there.

THANK YOU DEMI!

[livius drusus]

I'm on it, Shea. :unrun:

[Demimonde]

OMG yay! :cheer: I am glad it is on your route. It really is quintessential roadside attraction stuff, from what I have heard. Be sure to load Billy Idol's Sweet Sixteen on your iPod so you can rock out to it there for me.

Oh, and have you read The Orchid Thief? (http://www.amazon.com/Orchid-Thief-Obsession-Ballantine-Readers/dp/044900371X) I read it when it came out and again in the last year for a course I took. Susan Orlean is a talented writer and it is this beautiful pomo mash of history, science, politics, magic, and life narrative. It really captures the spirit of Florida. It might be a fun read while you are planning the trip for ideas.

[LadyShea]

I'm on it, Shea. :unrun:


Personal rabbit holing or blog post research?

[livius drusus]

The latter, I suspect, but it depends on whether I can drum up killer pictures. :plzhold:

[LadyShea]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Cyrus_Teed.jpg

[LadyShea]

OMG if you are finding the cool shit I am this is gonna be a killer post

[livius drusus]

It's not tonight's post, though, so calm down.

[LadyShea]

Oh I know, I'm sorry. It's been a long time since I stumbled on something cool when I wasn't actually looking. You do it all the time!

[livius drusus]

I know, and I love to see you nerd out like this. :vibes:

[LadyShea]

The campground at the John Pennekamp State Park on Key Largo is booked solid for like the whole next 90 days, but I found a private campground with some spaces available right nearby (I was afraid we would have to go inland on the mainland and camping on the Key was super important to me, so yay!). We can still snorkel and glass bottom boat and stuff.

We are also staying at Manatee Springs SP the first night Wildy! I am taking my snorkeling stuff, and prolly my suit on account cold, but not going full SCUBA

[LadyShea]

We kind of amaze me sometimes. This is a low budget vacation I am planning here, we'll be under 2K for 4 people, yet we (and importantly Kiddo) will get to experience snorkeling a coral reef, an airboat ride in the Everglades, kayaking to an archaeological site, probably see manatees in a natural spring, and yes, for commercial destination balance, go to Legoland.

On previous trips we've been white water rafting, water sliding on natural rock formations, I dunno how many cool nature hikes, some including rock climbing, been in multiple cave systems, been to DisneyWorld and Universal Studios and museums and traveling exhibits and world class aquariums. Always on a PB&J budget.

I know comparatively wealthy people who's kids haven't done or seen much of anything. I also know people who could afford to travel like we do, but can't seem to stay on a tight budget for some reason and so their calculations come out way more expensive than mine. I am a good planner, to be sure, but if I can do it, anyone prolly can.

I think we're a pretty cool family.

[godfry n. glad]

I have no doubt, LS.

I remember growing up with what we called 'camping', which was pulling up to a spot with the car/truck, spilling out the tent, sleeping bags and cooking implements and making do, even packing water to boil from the nearest natural water source and designating a 'pit'. My father liked to drive and made a point of stopping at vistas, hysterical points of interest, and info boards, as well as the usual compliment of parks and monuments. I was well exposed to the region by the time I reached maturity. Or will be.

I think what you do with your family vacations is laudable and a role-model for others.

[LadyShea]

We were trying to explain the amount of work, research and discussion involved in our planning to Kiddo last night, which made me reflect on all this. That's why I am bragging.

[Watser?]

We kind of amaze me sometimes. This is a low budget vacation I am planning here, we'll be under 2K for 4 people, yet we (and importantly Kiddo) will get to experience snorkeling a coral reef, an airboat ride in the Everglades, kayaking to an archaeological site, probably see manatees in a natural spring, and yes, for commercial destination balance, go to Legoland.

On previous trips we've been white water rafting, water sliding on natural rock formations, I dunno how many cool nature hikes, some including rock climbing, been in multiple cave systems, been to DisneyWorld and Universal Studios and museums and traveling exhibits and world class aquariums. Always on a PB&J budget.

I know comparatively wealthy people who's kids haven't done or seen much of anything. I also know people who could afford to travel like we do, but can't seem to stay on a tight budget for some reason and so their calculations come out way more expensive than mine. I am a good planner, to be sure, but if I can do it, anyone prolly can.

I think we're a pretty cool family.

:unnod:

[LadyShea]

Aight getting down to the nitty gritty now. I have a bid in on eBay for a shorty wetsuit for Kiddo. The spring water at our first stop is about 72. That doesn't sound too bad, but I know that I got downright uncomfortable after 45 minutes in 74 degree water in Hawaii, so the suits should extend our time. When we get to Key Largo, the water is warmer, around 76, but jellyfish might be a problem, so the suits will help there too.

I got all campground reservations made- two state parks, one private. I ordered a gas card with my cashback from my Discover card.

Now all I need is for livius to give me some nerd food on Koreshan

[wildernesse]

Aight getting down to the nitty gritty now. I have a bid in on eBay for a shorty wetsuit for Kiddo. The spring water at our first stop is about 72. That doesn't sound too bad, but I know that I got downright uncomfortable after 45 minutes in 74 degree water in Hawaii, so the suits should extend our time. When we get to Key Largo, the water is warmer, around 76, but jellyfish might be a problem, so the suits will help there too.

I got all campground reservations made- two state parks, one private. I ordered a gas card with my cashback from my Discover card.

Now all I need is for livius to give me some nerd food on Koreshan

Sounds great! Our shorty wetsuits were just right. I don't remember being cold in the water at all with them, or when wearing them around getting to the water when it was cold outside, either.

[LadyShea]

Hubby and I have full suits, and I am not going to invest in new ones for us...so it's sea lion time for Mama and Daddy. But, with Kiddo not being SCUBA certed for a while yet, a shorty will be really versatile for him :)


-Won and paid for!

[Qingdai]

74º sounds pretty warm.

Of course our beaches are our 50º to 60º, yes we don't swim much there.
That's why we call it going to the coast. I'm going to try to book some yurt camping on the coast this spring break. It may already be all filled up though.

[LadyShea]

I am a big wussie. I go to the coast until the water is 80, then I'll swim.

I'll bet the yurts do fill up, it sounds like a blast.

[Demimonde]

Is unrelated, but I ran across another odd Florida place and thought I would post.

Gibsonton, Florida AKA Show Town, USA (http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/fall07/Caramanica/) is a little town near Tampa. It doesn't seem to have any major attractions or anything besides the fishing, but it's claim to fame is that during the 40's it became a Wintering ground for many circus workers and carnival performers. Many stayed on, though the old timers are disappearing.

Might be a fun place to grab a sandwich and stretch your legs. Also a possible photo safari stop as the locals have amassed a pretty huge collection of rides and junk in their yards.

[LadyShea]

Mapped and listed on my vacation planning site (lol, I overdo my planning)

[LadyShea]

On the unrelated thing, it's fine. I don't want to start a new thread for points of interest in every state or whatever. Although maybe we can. Lemme think. So, thank you.

[godfry n. glad]

Well...Once again, we're not going overseas, so we're planning a circuit through Northern California. By car.

We're intending on doing Humbolt County and the Redwoods, then Point Reyes National Seashore, the Napa Valley wine country, zip through San Francisco to head out to Pigeon Point Lighthouse, Santa Cruz and Monterey, from there, we'll strike out east northeast across the central valley (thorugh Merced, probably) to go to Yosemite. After knocking around Yosemite for a couple of days, we intend to strike out across the park to the east side and then turn north to Lake Tahoe and then on to Lassen Volcanic National Park and on to Mount Shasta. From there, we'll pick up Highway 97, visit friends in K-Falls and view the eastern front of the Oregon Cascades through Bend and Government Camp to home. We figure 13 days on the road, with three three-night stays in the Point Reyes, Pigeon Point, and Midpines locales.

It's an auto loop where the sting of the gasoline costs shall be blunted by a fairly parsimonious Camry and utilization of at least three HI hostels, including one at a lighthouse (Pigeon Point) and one in Yosemite itself.

I've never been. My fellow traveller has spent fair time in the Shasta area, but has never been to Yosemite, either. Trip is planned for late September through early October.

I'm open to any recommendations along that route.

[LadyShea]

My old vacation stompin' grounds! Lassen is one of my fave parks, and Tahoe is fab as well. Will you hit Sequoia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoia_National_Park) you think? If you can, you really should.

ETA: Nevermind, Sequoia is too far South I think. Mammoth Lakes might be worth a little dog leg from Yosemite though

[godfry n. glad]

Whoa...I never thought I'd hit paydirt with the master vacation planner.

We were planning on taking CA 120 east through Yosemite to end up near Mono Lake on US 395. We were intending on heading north from there, but Mammoth Lakes is about 10, maybe 15 miles south of that intersection, right on US 395. So...What's to see at Mammoth Lakes?

[LadyShea]

California's Mammoth Lakes in Summer (http://www.fostertravel.com/californias-mammoth-lakes-in-summer/)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Devils_postpile_NM.jpg/288px-Devils_postpile_NM.jpg

Mammoth Lakes CA | Vacation Guide | Things to Do, Hotels (http://www.visitmammoth.com/things-to-do/sightseeing/)
http://www.visitmammoth.com/includes/content/images/media/geology2.jpg

[godfry n. glad]

The Devil's Postpile and a gondola to the top of 11,000 foot Mammoth Mountain! (Boy, that's gonna tire out that gondolier poling uphill all that way!) It's on the list.

[LadyShea]

It's really a beautiful area :)