12th Century Welsh explorers in America?

[LadyShea]

I was reading up on the history of Baldwin County, Alabama and came across the legend that the area was settled in 1170 by a Welsh explorer named Prince Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd. There are, apparently, many stories throughout the Eastern US of red-haired Welsh speaking "tribes" of people working their way North from the area.

In 1170 A.D., a certain Welsh prince, Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, sailed away from his homeland, which was filled with war and strife and battles between his brothers. <snip> He returned to Wales brimming with tales of the new land he found--warm and golden and fair. His tales convinced more than a few of his fellow countrymen, and many left with him to return to this wondrous new land, far across the sea.

This wondrous new land is believed to be what is now Mobile Bay, Alabama. Time has left several blank pages between the legend of Madoc and the "history" of America, with its reports of white Indians who speak Welsh, and these blank pages have been the subject of much controversy in certain circles over the five centuries since Columbus discovered the New World.

<snip>
The choice of Mobile Bay as Madoc's landfall and the starting point for his colonists is grounded in two main areas. One is the logical assumption that the ocean currents13 would have carried him into the Gulf of Mexico. Once there and seeking a landing site, he would have been attracted to the perfect harbor offered in Mobile Bay, as were later explorers Ponce de Leon, Alonzo de Pineda, Hernando de Soto, and Amerigo Vespucci.14

<snip>
The second, and more convincing reason, is a series of pre-Columbian forts built up the Alabama River

<snip>
It must be assumed that the remaining settlers were eventually assimilated by Indians, and that by the early eighteenth century very few traces of their Welsh ancestry remained. Although several tribes have been considered as possible descendants of the Welsh settlers, the most likely is the Mandan tribe, who once inhabited villages along tributaries of the Missouri River.

These Mandan villages were visited in 1738 by a French explorer, The Sieur de la Verendrye, and he kept a detailed journal describing the people and their villages. At the time of Verendrye's visit, the tribe numbered about 15,000 and occupied eight permanent villages. The Mandan chief told him that the tribe's ancestors had formerly lived much farther south but had been driven north and west by their enemies. Verendrye described the Mandans as "white men with forts, towns and permanent villages laid out in streets and squares." He indicated that their customs and lifestyle were totally different from other tribes he had encountered, and was the first of many to remark about the beards of their men, the grey hair of their older people, and the magnificent beauty of their women! The Mandans had several visitors throughout the next century, (including Louis and Clark in 1804), each one reiterating the striking differences in their culture and appearance.Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b4e27bc1741.htm)

There are other writings telling the same story, but the Free Republic article seemed the most complete telling.

Perhaps I am the only one who had never heard of this (having never researched the area), but it is an interesting story. Any thoughts? Do you think this is a possibility or simply a legend?

[Beth]

This is the first I ever heard of this. I wonder if it is really true.

[livius drusus]

That is fascinating, Shea. It reminds me of the Madeleine L'Engle novel A Swiftly Tilting Planet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440401585/104-6529679-4063108), the third book in the A Wrinkle in Time series. The entire plot revolves around the notion of 12th c Welsh immigrants coming to America. Madoc is a key figure, of course. I think you'd get a big kick out of the book and its predecessors.

I enjoyed the FR article. It does cover a lot of ground, looks at many sources. One thing that's a little weird is they list David Powel as the author of 1584's The Historie of Cambria, which I thought was written by Humphrey Llwyd (aka Lloyd). It seems weird there would be two authors of a book with the same title published in the same year, but a quick web search has turned them both up. Maybe one is a pseudonym?

But enough about my anality, it seems to me that there is very little primary evidence to support the idea. The secondary sources are meager enough. I find the Elizabethan nationalism explanation solid wrt the 16th century histories, and none of the original 12th century Welsh bard tales are extant.

The claims of Welsh Indians also seem rather haphazard to me. I'll have to look into it in more depth -- particularly the Oconostota-Seiver discussions -- but the "white men must have built this" argument is an old one, and steeped in racist assumptions. Jefferson dug up half of Virginia trying to uncover the so-called "mound builder" civilization which people figured had to be white just because the Indian tribes they knew weren't currently building anything similar. Given the relatively common tendency of early American examiners of history to assume white technology, I'm not inclined to buy the architectural analysis without further investigation.

Notice also that the claims about Welsh Indians seem to migrate west a lot. First it's Alabama or North Carolina, then it's Missouri and North Dakota. The claims move in step with white exploration of the country, iow. Find no evidence in Alabama? Try Tennessee. Nothing solid there? Move Madoc to Missouri.

Thanks for posting about it, Shea. I'm going to enjoy reading up about this. :)

[bobeh]

There are also tales of Irish discovers I do believe.

But the ones with some solid evidence are the Norsemen...there are settlements that have been unearthed and restored (search L’Anse aux Meadows if interested, or Viking settlements Canada). That could account for some European looking native Americans. Unfortunately the native population of Newfoundland was totally destroyed in the early days of European exploration of North America so there is no living evidence at least in that area.

It seems that there must be something anti-American (as in US "American") about implying that Columbus was not the first European to the continent. There has been, as I understand it, opposition in the US to accepting that Vikings discovered the American continent.

[Dingfod]

I've seen a debunking of this claim, but at the moment I cannot seem to locate it. I'll keep looking.

[Dingfod]

Here's one historian's opinion. (http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extnews/newsrelease/1999/051399/21plains.htm)

[Adam]

That is fascinating, Shea. It reminds me of the Madeleine L'Engle novel A Swiftly Tilting Planet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440401585/104-6529679-4063108), the third book in the A Wrinkle in Time series. The entire plot revolves around the notion of 12th c Welsh immigrants coming to America. Madoc is a key figure, of course. I think you'd get a big kick out of the book and its predecessors.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately recalled ASTP. It was one of my favorite books when I was younger, and I refuse to read it as an adult, because I'm afraid it won't be as wonderful as I recall it being.

[Adam]

Something else that occurs to me is that a number of pre-Columbian civilizations appear to have had legends about 'white' people who visited them in their prehistories. For whatever reason, it seems to be a recurring theme. Although people like Graham Hancock make a living speculating about such legends, no other case that I'm aware of is substantiated, and the Madoc incident, if valid, is too late to serve as the origin of all the others.

[godfry n. glad]

Hmmm....

I've heard the Welsh Indians story, but had not heard anything about Lewis looking for one of the lost tribes of Israel. I do know that on the expedition that it was Clark, not Lewis, who had the primary duty of ethnographer, keeping notes on dress, language and customs of the native peoples along the way.

As for finding "beautiful women" and non-Indian looking members of the the Mandan settlement, particularly as late as 1832. Big whooop. Even in 1803, when Lewis and Clark arrived, the permanent Mandan community was overrun with European interlopers. The fur traders from Canada had been there for decades. Indeed, the expedition turned up at least three members at Ft. Mandan who came the distance and back: Pierre Cruzotte, suspected to be Meti himself, of mixed French Canadien and native, was hired for his mastery of native languages to the west and sign language; Charbonneau, another French Canadien trapper, and Charbonneau's Shoshone slave child wife, Sacajawea, and their infant child, Jean Baptiste, who would become known as "Pompey", were hired on for Sacajawea, who was of a tribe known to live in the mountains far to the west (and, her presence, particularly with the baby, would make them look far less like a war party). Also at the Mandan community on the Missouri when Lewis & Clark were there was Northwest Fur company factor and explorer David Thompson, who would leave the encampment to spend a year, plus, living and roaming with the Crow.

Also, it's my understanding that in the British Isles, the Welsh are noted for their physical characteristics for NOT having red, or reddish, hair, but being small of stature, slender and dark, particularly of hair. The reddish hair was introduced into the Sea of Ireland coasts by the raiding Vikings who settled. Such is the source of most of the large coastal communities in Ireland. That probably took place during the 8th to 10th centuries.

It is also my understanding that there is evidence of Irish/Welsh Christian missionaries in Iceland in the 10th century. Of course, the Norse and Danes were already there, but they were probably the target market. That, or they had found some windswept barren islands that the ascetic monks thought were appropriate places for contemplation. Or, in search of the Isle of the Blessed...reputed to be to the west.

I find the whole landing at Mobile to be the most difficult aspect to accept. All those other explorers were aware of the Caribbean Islands when they found a nice harbor on the mainland.

Anyway, it's a quaint story. I think a lot of this kind of speculation is fuelled by a desire to dismiss any kind of advanced culture, one with sufficient social organization to allow the building of large and/or complex structures, as having preceded European presence on the continent. Ergo, it must be due to some indeterminate earlier European exposure. Or, the lost tribes of Israel. Same with the pyramids of central America. People want to believe fanciful things, and it's always easier if it's "possible". What if the truth is the opposite, that North American natives, in some kind of boat, got caught in the Gulf Stream off the Nova Scotian coast and swept in an arc across the north Atlantic, making landfall in what is now Wales? It seems to me as though DNA testing would put considerable limitations upon such hypotheses any more.

I personally suspect the Portuguese and English cod fisherman probably knew about North America generations before Columbus ever stumbled into the Caribbean.

And the limited Viking presence in Newfoundland is credible, as far as I'm concerned, but I'm just relying upon my understanding of secondary and tertiary sources.

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

Something else that occurs to me is that a number of pre-Columbian civilizations appear to have had legends about 'white' people who visited them in their prehistories. For whatever reason, it seems to be a recurring theme. Although people like Graham Hancock make a living speculating about such legends, no other case that I'm aware of is substantiated, and the Madoc incident, if valid, is too late to serve as the origin of all the others.

I've always wondered whether those stories of 'white' people in their prehistories weren't fallacious or misguided interpretations by 'white' people of some native concept. Or worse, actively retrojected upon the decimated native peoples after the "retribution" of disease.

I'm probably too cynical.

:qsigh:
godfry

[John Carter]

It seems that there must be something anti-American (as in US "American") about implying that Columbus was not the first European to the continent. There has been, as I understand it, opposition in the US to accepting that Vikings discovered the American continent.

Since when?

[Dingfod]

Knights of Columbus? In general, I think most Americans find it fascinating that there might have been earlier discoveries of America. However, none began the conquest of the Americas and subsequent demolition of the indigenous peoples and their culture quite like Columbus' voyages. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

[Godless Dave]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately recalled ASTP. It was one of my favorite books when I was younger, and I refuse to read it as an adult, because I'm afraid it won't be as wonderful as I recall it being.

It is just as wonderful, so go ahead and reread. But avoid the books L'Engle wrote about the Murphy family after ASTP like they plague; they suck.

[Sauron]

There are also tales of Irish discovers I do believe.

But the ones with some solid evidence are the Norsemen...there are settlements that have been unearthed and restored (search L’Anse aux Meadows if interested, or Viking settlements Canada). That could account for some European looking native Americans. Unfortunately the native population of Newfoundland was totally destroyed in the early days of European exploration of North America so there is no living evidence at least in that area.

It seems that there must be something anti-American (as in US "American") about implying that Columbus was not the first European to the continent. There has been, as I understand it, opposition in the US to accepting that Vikings discovered the American continent.

I don't think that there's much resistance to this idea anymore. The excavation at L'Anse aux Meadows showed pretty strong evidence of Viking habitation - a forge, nails, etc.
http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/nl/meadows/index_e.asp

Viking huts, artifacts, etc.
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/vikings/phtogal1.htm

PS - did I mention that I love Canada? :wave:

[Dingfod]

Mandan is not Welsh. (http://www.languagegeek.com/siouan/mandan_is_not_welsh.html)